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On April 12 2012 21:26 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 17:33 Mr.Zip wrote:
Can anyone give me some tips on how to lane as Wu vs. Shen? Specifically early- can I trade with him at all? It always feels like I lose out.
What items should I favor? I haven't faced the new Shen at top, but from my understanding, it's gonna be difficult because of his shield to trade evenly. More likely than not, he'll come out at top if he has good reaction time because he can shield himself from your attacks, and even his taunt does damage now. I would play it like this: Decoy out immediately when you get a sense that he'll engage you. He'll taunt your clone (his shield will stil be up) so you should wait a couple of seconds until his shield is gone, then E -> AA -> Q -> AA Get sustain items. Especially Philio stone. Because you'll need that health regen + mana regen to decoy out frequently.
I wouldn't trade with him early at all unless it is unavoidable- he'll just get all his health back from vorpal blade if you can't outright kill him. Best to play passive early on and stack magic resistance. Like cloth/5 into double null magic mantles, merc treads, wriggles, Wit's End then (maybe consider getting a negatron even, if you're still having problems). Also running scaling magic resist runes helps a lot. At about level 10 or so you can start winning trades decisively enough that he won't necessarily be able to get all his health back from vorpal blade while farming. Going 21 in defensive masteries also makes the early laning phase easier.
It's just not an especially favorable matchup for the monkey when it is early.
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Wukong is a hexdrinker champ, not a wit's end champ.
vs. Shen I just boots -> double dblade -> mercs + hex -> bloodthirster usually. if you can make it a freefarm lane, Wu makes Shen look like a joke in teamfights later on.
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so against triple AD comps (AD top, AD jungler, AD carry, maybe something like panth/lee/graves respectively, not an impossible comp to see):
WK top mixed with taric bot. both taric and WK get aegis. WK might grab tabi too. WK passive plus shatter passive plus double aegis is retarded amounts of armor and MR (up to 40 arm/mr on WK passive, up to 30 armor on shatter, 18 + 12 + 12 = 42 armor on double aegis, 24 + 15 + 15 = 54 MR on double aegis, totals 112 armor, 94 MR WTFJESUSCHRIST), he benefits to the max from the +18 AD from double aegis with his 4.8 AD ratio on ult and 1.1 ratio on Q.
it is just an insane combo. throw in some jarvan or soraka for more passive armor/MR but it's unnecessary after that point. WK can literally be a main tank with only aegis. the rest can be all damage. i went 0-5 in lane to lee sin today and decided to get aegis at the same time my taric did. didn't die for the rest of the game and teamfights were just a ridiculous stomp despite how underfarmed i was.
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On May 21 2012 13:11 gtrsrs wrote:
so against triple AD comps (AD top, AD jungler, AD carry, maybe something like panth/lee/graves respectively, not an impossible comp to see):
WK top mixed with taric bot. both taric and WK get aegis. WK might grab tabi too. WK passive plus shatter passive plus double aegis is retarded amounts of armor and MR (up to 40 arm/mr on WK passive, up to 30 armor on shatter, 18 + 12 + 12 = 42 armor on double aegis, 24 + 15 + 15 = 54 MR on double aegis, totals 112 armor, 94 MR WTFJESUSCHRIST), he benefits to the max from the +18 AD from double aegis with his 4.8 AD ratio on ult and 1.1 ratio on Q.
it is just an insane combo. throw in some jarvan or soraka for more passive armor/MR but it's unnecessary after that point. WK can literally be a main tank with only aegis. the rest can be all damage. i went 0-5 in lane to lee sin today and decided to get aegis at the same time my taric did. didn't die for the rest of the game and teamfights were just a ridiculous stomp despite how underfarmed i was.
I guess? that's a crazy roundabout way to get a ton of armor though. against a team like that, I just go tabi -> hog -> phage -> rush my randuins -> BT or something. fast omen destroys teams like that because you can just sit on their melees with your ult and zone the rest of their team cause of his sillytarded deeps.
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On May 21 2012 14:47 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 13:11 gtrsrs wrote:
so against triple AD comps (AD top, AD jungler, AD carry, maybe something like panth/lee/graves respectively, not an impossible comp to see):
WK top mixed with taric bot. both taric and WK get aegis. WK might grab tabi too. WK passive plus shatter passive plus double aegis is retarded amounts of armor and MR (up to 40 arm/mr on WK passive, up to 30 armor on shatter, 18 + 12 + 12 = 42 armor on double aegis, 24 + 15 + 15 = 54 MR on double aegis, totals 112 armor, 94 MR WTFJESUSCHRIST), he benefits to the max from the +18 AD from double aegis with his 4.8 AD ratio on ult and 1.1 ratio on Q.
it is just an insane combo. throw in some jarvan or soraka for more passive armor/MR but it's unnecessary after that point. WK can literally be a main tank with only aegis. the rest can be all damage. i went 0-5 in lane to lee sin today and decided to get aegis at the same time my taric did. didn't die for the rest of the game and teamfights were just a ridiculous stomp despite how underfarmed i was. I guess? that's a crazy roundabout way to get a ton of armor though. against a team like that, I just go tabi -> hog -> phage -> rush my randuins -> BT or something. fast omen destroys teams like that because you can just sit on their melees with your ult and zone the rest of their team cause of his sillytarded deeps.
... hog + randuin's is like 1100 more than just aegis. my point is you can go literally JUST aegis and endgame still have the stats that a pure tank would have, but also do infinite damage because you spent that 1100 on real damage and the rest of your gold on IE and BT and shit too
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On May 21 2012 15:26 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:47 Mogwai wrote:On May 21 2012 13:11 gtrsrs wrote:
so against triple AD comps (AD top, AD jungler, AD carry, maybe something like panth/lee/graves respectively, not an impossible comp to see):
WK top mixed with taric bot. both taric and WK get aegis. WK might grab tabi too. WK passive plus shatter passive plus double aegis is retarded amounts of armor and MR (up to 40 arm/mr on WK passive, up to 30 armor on shatter, 18 + 12 + 12 = 42 armor on double aegis, 24 + 15 + 15 = 54 MR on double aegis, totals 112 armor, 94 MR WTFJESUSCHRIST), he benefits to the max from the +18 AD from double aegis with his 4.8 AD ratio on ult and 1.1 ratio on Q.
it is just an insane combo. throw in some jarvan or soraka for more passive armor/MR but it's unnecessary after that point. WK can literally be a main tank with only aegis. the rest can be all damage. i went 0-5 in lane to lee sin today and decided to get aegis at the same time my taric did. didn't die for the rest of the game and teamfights were just a ridiculous stomp despite how underfarmed i was. I guess? that's a crazy roundabout way to get a ton of armor though. against a team like that, I just go tabi -> hog -> phage -> rush my randuins -> BT or something. fast omen destroys teams like that because you can just sit on their melees with your ult and zone the rest of their team cause of his sillytarded deeps. ... hog + randuin's is like 1100 more than just aegis. my point is you can go literally JUST aegis and endgame still have the stats that a pure tank would have, but also do infinite damage because you spent that 1100 on real damage and the rest of your gold on IE and BT and shit too
Randuin's is 1150 more than aegis, probably around 800 gold realistically based off the money you make from your HoG (this is assuming ~12 minutes of HoG), but whatever, this is neither here nor there. My point is that against a triple AD team comp, it's a better build. Assume that your build doesn't impact your taric, and he still has aegis. Now instead of 30 Armor, 39 MRes, 8 AD and 275 HP, you have 75 Armor, 350 HP, 5% CDR, 25 HP/5, Passive Slow, and Active Slow, which, against a triple AD team, is quite a bit stronger with total 157 Armor, 55 MR, more HP and better utility vs. their 3 ADs. Like, really, your aegis, the 2nd aegis only matters for your own stats, and you're essentially arguing that saving 800 gold for much worse stats vs. this 3 AD team is a good idea because of Taric's aura or something. I dunno, I just don't get what you're getting at here, all the other factors are maginal next to the choice of Omen vs. Aegis, which is pretty easy to make when they have 3 ADs and you already have an Aegis on your team IMO.
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Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it.
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lol I was thinking just get a monk and barb with keen eye, mantra of evasion hard target and warcry with +40% armour.
Randuins way better than aegis which gives mr and doesn't slow attack speed against auto dependent physical champs. You don't need a huge comp either just buy a couple chain mails early across the team, maybe some tabi.
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On May 24 2012 15:39 GhostOwl wrote:
Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it.
Yea, sorry, you're wrong. I've done both and E is just better than maxing Q. 5 mana up/level is not restrictive on the mana cost and E just does strictly more damage to level up than Q unless you're staying in Melee range after the E attack speed buff wears off, which is usually not the case, as your playstyle is typically quick engage -> disengage and wait for E CD again.
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On May 24 2012 15:39 GhostOwl wrote:
Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it.
If you lower a cooldown, you're effectively raising mana costs too (unless you don't plan on actually using that skill once cooldown is up).
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Max e is so much stronger on wukong that it's not even funny
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alright after several more games i'm finally starting to really call wukong my own
boots/cloth + pots open
2 dorans if even or behind, HoG + 1 dorans if even or ahead
boots 2 as necessary
phage, aegis -> giant's belt or pickaxe or BF sword depending on if you're dying, getting kills, or getting LOTS of kills
finish mallet for defensive build, last whisper against tanks, bf sword against mages or squishies. randuin's absolutely last
final build looks like
mercs/tabi, randuins, aegis, mallet, thirster, last whisper. occasionally maw instead of thirster
i really really really think aegis is core, especially if your team has another aegis holder. last game i started 0-3-2, ended 10-3-10 and i really do feel that's typical, not an exception. you just become so so so sosososo hard to kill with resists being stacked and the HP from aegis/mallet. even the tiny bits of AD add up so well. 10 from d-blades, 20 from mallet, 8 from aegis, 8 from partner's aegis, 40 from LW. even if you never get to finish your thirster, you do madddd deeps with your broken AD ratios on your skills. level 16 signals the end of the game for your opponent, his ult is absolutely disgusting at that point. the base damage is insane, the scaling is insane, the cooldown is insane. you can easily hit 1500+ damage on a tank if you're peeling for your AD, or obliterate an entire back line even while exhausted if you're the diver. i really think wukong can be taken to competitive games
people keep telling me to stop first-picking him because he's such an easily counterable champ, but the only champs i've struggled with are your typical top-lane stompers. riven is OP against wukong because her stun animations are shorter than his auto attack animations so he never wins trades. renekton is OP against wukong because he has no mana costs and his abilities get stronger the more he uses them (rofl gr8 design ri0t). lee sin is entirely dependent on lee sin - if lee maxes W he'll win the lane but you scale harder, if he maxes anything else you can trade with him if you're ballsy, if either one gets a gank from his jungler he can destroy the other, i ban lee just in case. haven't played shen but i see it being a problem, i ban shen. cho'gath destroys wu.
easy matchups that most tops struggle with include rumble (though jungler dictates this one), vlad (wukong steamrolls), kennen (wukong can definitely win this, it's tough though, but easier than how other melees have it), darius. udyr seems pretty even, but i've won most of these.
also lol at 10% armor pen offensive, 40% last whisper, 30% from his Q = 62.2% arpen? get crushed
edit: re-read the topic, i realize i just said a lot of stuff you said. i guess i might just finally be at the understanding of wu that you're at, not discovering anything new  except my aegis core, OP
also, i run AD/arpen quints/reds and 9/21/0, any time i go more offensive masteries i get my ass handed to me. i'm a very passive laner that focuses on farming and not dying until i know for a fact that i will win fights. i think that is a difference in our playstyle
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How does Wukong do against Warwick?
I beat one, but I already knew the opposite top to be inferior to me (was a Bo3) and I should have been an easy gank every time their jungler (Jax) had red buff, seeing how trading makes me push because of E and the fact that I aa and WW won't if he just Q and runs.
I started cloth+5, with AS marks because my only page with MR quints has those marks, and I ran oom when WW was oom too with one pot left (started cloth+5 too) and had more than half his HP left. He couldn't fight me but I couldn't kill him (did when we dove with my jungler once) and I ended up just pushing, warding and then roaming to drake with the team.
I think I would have done better with ArPen marks (and AD or MS quints, because of my pages) and a boots+3 start to be able to get more autos in when WW runs after my EautoQ, but that was against that WW. Had he been better, or had their jungler used the fact that I was pushing to bash WW's head in, I think I should have probably lost that lane (getting killed, or zoned after a few trades when WW freezes the lane unless we dive with my jungler).
I didn't get bruta as I wanted more MR, so I went 2 dblades -> hexdrinker (the shield helped against Jax burst too).
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On June 09 2012 22:31 Alaric wrote:
How does Wukong do against Warwick?
I beat one, but I already knew the opposite top to be inferior to me (was a Bo3) and I should have been an easy gank every time their jungler (Jax) had red buff, seeing how trading makes me push because of E and the fact that I aa and WW won't if he just Q and runs.
I started cloth+5, with AS marks because my only page with MR quints has those marks, and I ran oom when WW was oom too with one pot left (started cloth+5 too) and had more than half his HP left. He couldn't fight me but I couldn't kill him (did when we dove with my jungler once) and I ended up just pushing, warding and then roaming to drake with the team.
I think I would have done better with ArPen marks (and AD or MS quints, because of my pages) and a boots+3 start to be able to get more autos in when WW runs after my EautoQ, but that was against that WW. Had he been better, or had their jungler used the fact that I was pushing to bash WW's head in, I think I should have probably lost that lane (getting killed, or zoned after a few trades when WW freezes the lane unless we dive with my jungler).
I didn't get bruta as I wanted more MR, so I went 2 dblades -> hexdrinker (the shield helped against Jax burst too).
I don't think I've ever been able to beat a WW or seen a WW lose to Wukong, but I don't play him much anymore, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
If I play the matchup as WW, I just start with a +32 armor runepage and Cloth 5, then proceed to either rush Wriggle's or Glacial. At level 6, it's sort of sketchy if you manage to run WW out of mana beforehand and maybe hit 6 before him, but other than that, I don't see a Wukong ever posing a real threat to WW (and even that scenario is highly unlikely imo). I just don't see Wukong being able to outtrade Warwick because he basically wants to engage/disengage instead of partaking in prolonged fights, and whenever Wukong does that, WW just Qs him, autoattacks some creeps and you're back to square one, while you probably used 3 spells opposed to Warwick sticking to just using Q.
Then again, it's Warwick. Have your jungler camp his lane and win the game.
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On June 09 2012 22:53 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:31 Alaric wrote:
How does Wukong do against Warwick?
I beat one, but I already knew the opposite top to be inferior to me (was a Bo3) and I should have been an easy gank every time their jungler (Jax) had red buff, seeing how trading makes me push because of E and the fact that I aa and WW won't if he just Q and runs.
I started cloth+5, with AS marks because my only page with MR quints has those marks, and I ran oom when WW was oom too with one pot left (started cloth+5 too) and had more than half his HP left. He couldn't fight me but I couldn't kill him (did when we dove with my jungler once) and I ended up just pushing, warding and then roaming to drake with the team.
I think I would have done better with ArPen marks (and AD or MS quints, because of my pages) and a boots+3 start to be able to get more autos in when WW runs after my EautoQ, but that was against that WW. Had he been better, or had their jungler used the fact that I was pushing to bash WW's head in, I think I should have probably lost that lane (getting killed, or zoned after a few trades when WW freezes the lane unless we dive with my jungler).
I didn't get bruta as I wanted more MR, so I went 2 dblades -> hexdrinker (the shield helped against Jax burst too). I don't think I've ever been able to beat a WW or seen a WW lose to Wukong, but I don't play him much anymore, so take my advice with a grain of salt. If I play the matchup as WW, I just start with a +32 armor runepage and Cloth 5, then proceed to either rush Wriggle's or Glacial. At level 6, it's sort of sketchy if you manage to run WW out of mana beforehand and maybe hit 6 before him, but other than that, I don't see a Wukong ever posing a real threat to WW (and even that scenario is highly unlikely imo). I just don't see Wukong being able to outtrade Warwick because he basically wants to engage/disengage instead of partaking in prolonged fights, and whenever Wukong does that, WW just Qs him, autoattacks some creeps and you're back to square one, while you probably used 3 spells opposed to Warwick sticking to just using Q. Then again, it's Warwick. Have your jungler camp his lane and win the game.
I think that's really the truth about Wukong he gets beat easily by champs with high sustain like WW, But usually those champions are easily camped. But if anything I would grab avarice blade and HoG and build for mid to late game by going even with them in lane. Wukong scales too well to get completely shut down you just need to not beat yourself. If you can't fight somebody then you can't don't try.
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The more I think about it, the more I feel that Wukong's place in kind of awkward in lane right now. He loses to a lot of champs with innate sustain, most other lane bullies outburst him (also Garen's Q, Panth's passive, Teemo's Q mess up with his combo), he can push quite heavily every time he harasses... he's amazing in teamfights due to his ult I'm more hard-pressed to find good match-ups for him (and most are champs weak early on anyway, like Irelia, Vlad) than bad ones.
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i don't think WW is auto-win against wukong
ww's Q is extremely mana inefficient especially early. WW has no other ranged harass. just walk up to him and auto-Q him when he goes to last hit. if he Ws, walk away. if his W is down or he Qs, E auto auto til he does w then walk away. get tons of pots and be aggressive instead of reactive, and i think wukong can win that. at 6 neither of them gets such a huge power boost that the other can't still win, unlike some matchups.
still the only matchups i struggle with are basically riven lee renekton
you just have to go hecka aggro with WK and keep your eyes glued to your minimap for the inevitable ganks
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Darius, Pantheon, and Irelia all basically murder Wu. I like picking him when I see an opposing AP top like Vlad, Kennen or Swain.
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On June 21 2012 11:23 gtrsrs wrote:
i don't think WW is auto-win against wukong
ww's Q is extremely mana inefficient especially early. WW has no other ranged harass. just walk up to him and auto-Q him when he goes to last hit. if he Ws, walk away. if his W is down or he Qs, E auto auto til he does w then walk away. get tons of pots and be aggressive instead of reactive, and i think wukong can win that. at 6 neither of them gets such a huge power boost that the other can't still win, unlike some matchups.
still the only matchups i struggle with are basically riven lee renekton
you just have to go hecka aggro with WK and keep your eyes glued to your minimap for the inevitable ganks
And if you are lucky enough as Wukong and you both press R at the same time you can cancel Warwicks ult with your own ^^
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On May 24 2012 23:28 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 15:39 GhostOwl wrote:
Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it. Yea, sorry, you're wrong. I've done both and E is just better than maxing Q. 5 mana up/level is not restrictive on the mana cost and E just does strictly more damage to level up than Q unless you're staying in Melee range after the E attack speed buff wears off, which is usually not the case, as your playstyle is typically quick engage -> disengage and wait for E CD again.
If you max E first, the 5 mana per level adds up. We all know the way Wukong harasses is pretty mana-heavy. E, Q, W. Maxing E first adds an unnecessary 15~20 mana everytime you do your harass combo.
Yes, a level 1 E and a level 5 E has a difference of 20% more attack speed. I'd rather take a much less cooldown on Q.
Plus, a 30% armor penetration that happens much more frequently is another positive note.
Your point about quick engage -> disengage actually hurts your argument. If you're not staying around to take advantage of the attack speed buff, then you're disregarding the best sole reason to take E over Q. Wukong's are not gonna stay after the E , Q just to get a few more hits from the attack speed buff. They're gonna decoy outta there to make sure they don't take damage so that they can get better trades.
EDIT: Disregard this post, I can see it now
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EPT
