Cyclone's allied ultimate HUD indicator will now go grey immediately after using Fixed a bug where Crushing Blow could reduce the armor of shred-immune units (Dragon, Baron Nashor)
v1.0.0.128 - 2011-11-01
Crushing Blow Total attack damage ratio increased to 1.1 from 1.0 Fixed a bug where Crushing Blow did not display critical strikes or benefit from life steal Decoy Casting Decoy no longer instantly shows a reduction in Wukong's mana bar to enemies Fixed a bug where Wukong's stealth state did not ignore unit collision Improved general Decoy behavior and placement - the Decoy should now more accurately mimic Wukong's previous position and behavior Wukong is now pushed forward slightly when using Decoy, rather than the Decoy being pushed back from Wukong's position Nimbus Strike Attack speed bonus increased to 30/35/40/45/50% from 20/25/30/35/40% Attack speed duration increased to 4 seconds from 3
v1.0.0.123 - 2011-08-09
Wukong will now attempt to attack a target champion after using Nimbus Strike Cyclone Attack Damage ratio increased to 1.2 from 1 Wukong is now properly considered melee for items and spells that differentiate between melee and ranged characters. Fixed a bug where Crushing Blow was shredding the target's base armor rather than total armor
Health ......... 435 (+85) Attack damage .. 54 (+3.2) Health regen ... 5.1 (+0.65) Attack speed ... 0.658 (+3.0%) Mana ........... 202 (+38) Armor .......... 15 (+3.5) Mana regen ..... 6.9 (+0.65) Magic res ...... 30 (+1.25) Range .......... 175 Mov. speed ..... 320
Abilities:
Passive - Stone Skin: Wukong's armor and magic resistance are increased by 4/6/8 for each nearby enemy champion.
Range: 1400
Pretty damn nice. Free 40/40 Armor/Mres for teamfights. The detection range is pretty large, so it's pretty reliable and is giving you a solid ~1300 gold worth of stats in the best case. Definitely boring, but very strong. Also note that this is a large driving force behind how you should build Wukong, as it shifts midgame priorities more towards HP than resists for becoming tanky.
Q - Crushing Blow: Wukong's next attack deals 30/60/90/120/150 + 1.1 Total AD physical damage and reduces the enemy's Armor by 30% for 3 seconds.
CD: 9/8/7/6/5 Mana: 40 Range: N/A
Pretty straight-forward on next attack modifier. As with other similar abilities, this resets your auto-attack timer upon activation so optimal use of this ability is to auto-attack first, and then hit Q to reset the timer and pull off another fast attack. % Armor reduction on this ability increases the value of flat armor penetration on Wukong since % reduction works the way old % penetration worked (applying before flat penetration). Also note that the AD scaling on this is total AD, not bonus AD, and that the damage is in place of attack damage, not on top of AD. So you gain net 30/60/90/120/150 + 0.1 AD on a typical auto attack with this ability.
W - Decoy: Wukong becomes stealthed for 1.5 seconds. An uncontrollable decoy is left behind that will deal 70/115/160/205/250 + 0.6 AP magic damage to enemies near it after 1.5 seconds.
If this ability doesn't get your panties wet, you should probably not play Wukong unless you're cool with being fairly bored and just having fun winning because he's a strong champion. At the most boring and straightforward level, this ability is a free disengaging tool that lets you drop aggro and reposition once you're satisfied with trades/engages, but there are more interesting and fun uses. I'll be talking a lot more about this ability under playstyle, but I guess I need to make some broad points about fun Decoy usage here. First of all, the core to understanding why Decoy is cool is that hitting 'W' to activate Decoy looks like you hit 'S' to stop to your opponents. What this means is that this ability actually adds a ton of mindgames to how you play Wukong, since you can be constantly hitting 'S' to condition your opponent to think you're just stopping, and then deceving them by hitting 'W' and using those 1.5 seconds of stealth to initiate without their knowledge. You can also do some slick shit like blocking skill shots with your decoy, and the ever-popular stop jukes when escaping from a shitty situation. As I said earlier, I'll get more into this ability later, but goddamn, it's so fucking cool and if you don't think so, you'll probably find Wukong terribly straightforward.
E - Nimbus Strike: Wukong dashes toward a target enemy and sends out images to attack up to 2 additional enemies near his target, dealing 60/105/150/195/240 + 0.8 Bonus AD physical damage to each enemy struck. Upon hitting his target, Wukong gains 30/35/40/45/50% Attack Speed for 3 seconds.
CD: 8 Mana: 45/50/55/60/65 Range: 625?
Pretty generic gap closer, the whole images thing sounds a lot cooler than it is, lol. The things that make this stand out are: 1. it deals physical damage, whereas a lot of gap closers deal magic damage for no good reason 2. it costs 45 mana at rank 1, while similar gap closers are typically costed around 70 3. it has an 8 second CD at all ranks, while most other gap closers are 10+ at level 1 4. it's Wukong's strongest non-ult nuke, meaning he levels it first, while most other characters have to wait to level their gap closers 5. on top of being a strong nuke, it also is a strong (albeit short duration) AS steroid.
So in other words, this ability is kinda boring, but it's very strong stat-wise and makes Wu very bursty and makes his burst very very repeatable (low CD and Mana cost) compared to other low-level bursters.
E -> Auto -> Q -> Auto -> Disengage is your standard Wukong burst harass in lane, but it's worth noting that since E does physical damage, if someone will let you hit them first, your strongest burst combo is Auto -> Q -> E -> 2-3 Autos -> Disengage
R - Cyclone: Wukong's staff grows outward and he spins it around, dealing 20/110/200 + 1.2 Total AD physical damage per second and knocking up enemies he encounters (enemies can only be knocked up once per cyclone). Wukong gains 5% movement speed every half second over the duration of the spell. Lasts 4 seconds.
CD: 120/105/90 Mana: 100 Range: N/A AoE: 325?
As with Q, this scales off total AD, not bonus AD, so don't be thrown off by the low damage numbers at level 1, they just look low because we're used to bonus AD scaling nowadays.
Total damage over the duration is a staggering 80/440/800 + 4.8 total AD (!!!!!!). Let that sink in. Especially after you're comfortable with how bursty he is even without this move with just E -> Auto -> Q. Typically Wukong can get kills in lane with just 1 E -> Auto -> Q -> Auto, followed by a E -> Auto -> Q -> R once your CDs are up. Always try to hit Q on your primary target before your ult to get that 30% Armor shred. Ult usage in teamfights can be tricky, as there are 2 conflicting forces driving ult usage (knocking up as many opponents as possible vs. keeping carries in the AoE for the full duration). Typically you want to be abusing the crazy damage on this, but there are times I chase the carry and support away and then cut back in and use the 2nd half of the duration to peel for my team.
GUIDES
SOLO WUKONG Summoner Skills: Flash + Ignite or Flash + Exhaust I prefer Flash + Ignite because Wukong is all about bursting, but Exhaust is also pretty beastmode on him because it makes it easier to stick on people with your ult and further reduces their armor.
Masteries: 21/0/9 I've heard tales of good Wukong's specing heavily into the defensive tree to cover his early weakness, but frankly, the numbers for heavy defensive investment don't add up to actually making you a lot tankier. I can see going 9 points in defensive over 9 utility depending on matchup, but more than that seems stupid to me.
Quints are a big question mark. I'd suggest generally going for Resists to be honest, since covering your ass early game to assure you get to his powerful mid-late game is the safest bet. If you're going more offensive, ArPen vs. AD on Quints is a matter of whether you'll be able to hit Q before E frequently. If you're vs. a strictly Melee Champ like Udyr/Irelia/Nasus, you'll be able to hit Qs first, in which case ArPen is better, if you're going to be hitting Qs towards the end of your burst, AD is better.
Skill Order: R > E > Q > W If Wukong were just a stand there and hit them all day type champ, leveling Q over E would lead to more damage output because of the lowered CD, but since he focuses more on a burst -> disengage playstyle, the CD reduction on Q is not as big as the higher damage scaling on E.
Item Build:
Starting Items + x5 or + x3 Typically cloth + 5, but if you're vs. a squishy mage, boots + 3 is generally better.
Core + or + + Wriggle's or double dblade opening. Wukong needs the sustain in lane since he has no built in sustain. Wriggle's is preferable in general, but double dblade is a suitable replacement vs. AP Carries that will let you get to other items more quickly.
What Next ? HoG is a very safe next item. Remember, because of his passive, that Wukong scales best off of HP for teamfights, so HoG is a pretty safe bet. Also, as a bruiser, you'll want Randuin's Omen once ranged ADs start getting really scary, so getting HoG early makes a lot of sense. ? Again, HP is great on Wukong, and so is AD. He also gets a considerable amout of chasing power from phage as you can hit E Auto Q Auto Auto and get a proc in the time of your E attack speed buff, which will then let you chase until E + Q are off CD again. Phage is a perfect fit for Wukong's kit and should almost always be bought. ? Wukong loves everything Brutalizer has to offer. CDR, ArPen, and AD all scale well with his kit, and when you're looking to bully someone around, you can't do better than Brutalizer. or ? If you really need mres, these are your options. Aegis better defensively and as the game goes on, Hexdrinker is stronger offensively and falls off a bit as the game goes on.
Note: you shouldn't need to rush more armor than Wriggle's + Tabi early.
Boots Options
or
No real reason to get non-defensive boots. CDR probably makes the most offensive sense, but he doesn't need CDR badly enough for it to ever really make sense.
Staple Later Items vs. Since you should always have a phage early, this is the naturally the question for later in the game. Now, if you know me, you know I hate Mallet with a firey burning passion, but with Wukong's passive, it actually makes a lot of sense to get Mallet really quickly for the faster HP pool. Basically, Mallet will make you inescapable earlier and tankier earlier than Triforce, but Triforce obviously scales better to late game. Mallet's just really damn convenient on chasing characters that scale well with HP.
Omen is a necessity as a bruiser once ranged carries start to really hurt. It's active also gets a free .8 seconds from Wukong's passive.
The movespeed boost is great for chasing and you're usually building a brutalizer anyway, so Ghostblade is a natural way to use 1350 gold for more offense and utility end game.
? Rarely worth it, but if you're getting a ton of farm, you can aim for Warmog's after trinity (would never get mog's before trinity, as if I need HP instead of finishing trinity, I would just rush Mallet). Wukong scales well with HP and so Warmog's is good on him, but it takes the build a long time to come together.
? This item is obviously good on Wukong after you get your HP pool up, but I still find myself holding off on it for a long time, as I typically have to prioritize Omen over it. Generally a safe bet as 6th item, possibly before upgrading ghostblade.
? If you need MRes after HP pool, go for it.
? Last Whisper has negative synergy with your single target damage since you're running Flat Armor Pen and have 30% Armor Reduction on your Q. That being said, it still has it's place when you're looking on doing damage to the entire opposing team with your ult, as you can only Q one of them, and it's usually going to be the carry if you can get to them. When you want to bash up the opposing bruisers/tanks with your ult (your ranged AD >>> opposing ranged AD, or your team is straight AoE comp), get a last whisper. When your team is strong enough that they'll just let you chase opposing carries away, don't bother.
/ Hilarious if you get really fed. I wouldn't generally suggest these, but Cleaver with Ghostblade and your Q's armor shredding is simply absurd and early Bloodthirster with his AD scaling can let you solo penta-kill teams with your ult as a fed monkey.
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + + Obviously sub in some Mres items if you need them (Some ideas for subbing: Mercs for Tabi, FoN for Atma's or Omen, Hexdrinker or Aegis for Ghostblade or Wriggle's), but against 1 AP teams, this isn't a rare final item build for me. Just from Scaling Mres Glyphs, his base MRes, his passive, and a friendly Aegis, Wukong sits at around 120+ MRes for no good reason, and in those cases, being able to ignore all their sustained damage with like 300+ Armor and leaning on your HP pool and positioning to not get 1 shotted by mages is preferable
Playstyle Monkey's laning is all about burst trading. He bursts really well, engages really well and disengages really well, so you need to use these strengths to get the better of your opponent and wear them down in burst exchanges. Knowing the points where you can get the better of your opponent is really important, but it's hard for me to explain how exactly you should know when you're going to win exchanges, it's mostly about having experience and trying shit out. The general rule of thumb is that you beat people who can't auto attack well starting at level 1, you beat people with only 1 nuke at level 2, you beat people with slower but bigger burst than you at level 4, and you lose to anyone with hard CC and higher burst until your burst gets higher than theirs (typically 6, but against some, like Riven, it never gets higher, hence why Riven counters him). One pitfall I see a lot of Monkeys run into is that they will 100% of the time just go EQW to burst and disengage. Don't do this mindlessly. It puts a lot more strain on your mana pool than just doing EQ combos, and it also makes you lose out on autoattack damage from the attack speed boost on your E. Also remember to auto before Q. Doing this fast takes a bit of practice because Wukong's attack animations are pretty slow and goofy, but it's pretty important to do so, as it gives you a significantly higher damage output. Use W to disengage safely after bursting if you have to, but I find that I don't really need it a lot of the time. You can just E Auto Q Auto Auto as you chase them and then just back off most of the time.
Once you get ahead in lane, the fun begins. At this point, start just randomly hitting 's' between last hits. The point here is to condition your opponent to seeing your character stop randomly out of moves without being able to automatically associate this with you using your W. If you only ever stop to use W, you become predictable and your opponent will know when to play safe and when they're free to move up, so it's important to give them non W stops to keep them guessing. Everyone gets sloppy vs. this. EVERYONE. And it's because they have to. If they're forced to assume that every 's' from you is you actually using 'w' and that you'll just kill them by closing the gap while invis and then comboing them, they'll get completely zoned off of CS/XP. So eventually, you'll be able to pick up on what situations will tempt them into moving forward, and you'll be able to anticipate it, use W, close the gap and burst them whenever you want. Just be careful with using this if you're barely ahead, as using W to initiate when a jungler is about to gank you can just spell immediate death since you won't be able to drop aggro with your W.
After laning, be sure to be present for teamfights. Wukong's a huge threat in teamfights, and can wreck havoc with his R if the opposing team gives you the right opportunities. Feel free to initiate in the midgame using W to close the gap without the opponents knowing, but be careful later one when they have the damage to kill you quickly and an oracles to see you creeping up. Later in the game, W should typically be saved to disengage, as even with an oracles, opposing teams have a hard time keeping aggro on Wukong immediately after W. Dropping aggro for even a split second can be the difference between being disintegrated and living to burst another day. After your ult is down, your main role is as a chaser. With E's crazy low CD, you can chase Carries from the fight or solo and kill them under most conditions. But don't be tempted to chase too far, as Wukong is also a great anti-bruiser with the 30% Armor shred on Q. If you've made their carry run too far to keep fighting, just wheel back onto opposing bruisers and tanks and make your carry's job easier by chunking 60+ armor from those assholes.
Wukong is also a strong 1v1er and pusher late in the game. E's attack speed buff really helps tear down towers and Q procs the bonus damage and auto-attack timer reset on towers, so you can frequently be a split pushing threat if your team has enough kiting to draw out a 4v5, or if they're ahead enough to win 4v4s while you draw 1 away to stop your split push.
Here I also just want to discuss some other cute tricks you can do with your W: 1. Block skill shots, especially those that only hit champions, like Ashe's Enchanted Crystal Arrow. If you're running away and you see a skill shot coming for you, you can W and you will be placed ahead of your decoy, which means that your decoy will happily absorb the skillshot for you. 2. Ward baits. There are rarely times late in the game where you can trick your opponents into blowing CDs on your decoy, but one of the most frequent is when you intentionally don't clear a ward that you saw them place and just camp that bush, then decoy out when you know they're coming for you. The reason this works so well is that while they will have an oracles, their oracles will be outside of the bush, so they won't be able to see you decoy out with a regular ward. This works especially well vs. long range initiates like Nocture/Ashe/Xerath/Sejuani, where they're really intent on trying to pick you off for being alone late game. 3. Stop jukes! When you're getting chased, hitting 's' and keeping W CD up is hilarious and rapes people pre-oracles so hard. I mean, sometimes they don't fall for it and then you look stupid, but w/e, who cares? The payoff from how fly you look when it works is totally worth the risk that they'll just kill you. There are 2 general trains of thought to stop juking and both are effective vs. different types of people. The first is that you should stop when in a brush, then juke backwards when the opponent passes through the brush. This works really well vs. blind chasers, but kinda sucks vs. good chasing champs who have the dicipline to sit in the bush and see which way you went (remember, they're assuming you used w). The other train of thought is that you should stop halfway between 2 bushes, wait 1 second, then activate w and go towards where your opponent just came from when they double back on where you stopped. This is a total mindfuck and I love it when it works so much, cause people tend to not have the sense to think "oh shit he didn't W right away, so maybe I have to re-check that bush that I just checked," and instead will assume you went the other way and chase that way. Don't count on stop jukes to work, if you have a free way out, just take it, but hot damn, shit looks so cool when it works and gets you out of an otherwise impossible situation, lol.
(Smash and I haven't tried JungleKong yet. Smash isn't a jungler, I don't find much appeal to him in Jungle when there's scorp, dragon lady, and living tree)
I was wondering if you go more in depth into specific lane matchups or if that is too much work.
Either way awesome guide, Monkey too strong I don't understand why more people dont play him.
The couple times I've had a monkey jungle in my games he seems to clear at a decent speed but doesn't really bring much to a team. Other jungle do better and Monkey does better top. Once he hits 6 his ganks are pretty good with W initiation but he just does well with farm and other junglers do better with jungle farm
Off the top of my head the only champ that bothers me top is like Gangplank. How would you lane against him?
Better if you have matchup scenarios to ask and you can get a response within the day. Would be too time consuming to draft all possible top lane matchups for Kong.
On February 15 2012 07:24 NeoIllusions wrote: Monkey stays in Lane. EQ to victory.
(Smash and I haven't tried JungleKong yet. Smash isn't a jungler, I don't find much appeal to him in Jungle when there's scorp, dragon lady, and living tree)
lol, neo, you don't know every game I've played bro. :p
I've played a few jangle mankey games, and my thoughts are that he needs farm and levels too much for the jungle, but that he's passable. W + red ganks are strong, and level 6 ganks are strong, but I felt the lack of levels and items pretty badly come midgame. It's a small sample size of games so take it with a grain of salt, but I'd say he's a much better fit for top than jangle.
On February 15 2012 07:29 Two_DoWn wrote: Hmm, twas kind of expecting to see LW in there somewhere.
LW seems like it would be a situational 5th or 6th item for late game imo...
i used to do BT rush on monkey all the time since his scaling is just so lulzy and he gets so much free stats. probably not ideal if you're not getting fed tho.
On February 15 2012 07:29 Two_DoWn wrote: Hmm, twas kind of expecting to see LW in there somewhere.
Should probably include it as an option.
LW has really bad synergy with Wukong's single target damage because their armor is already so butchered by Q and your flat penetration, but in AoE team comps or against incredibly tanky team comps, it does have a place for increasing your ER AoE Damage output. I generally don't buy it because I'm usually chasing squishies and stuff, but I will admit that it's situationally a strong buy.
Is there anyone that just straight up beats down WuKong? I really enjoyed playing him when released, but ended up playing more Irelia/GP solo top for the more secure laning.
I felt like WuKong dropped off a lot lategame when I played him, but after reading this guide I realized I wasn't taking his passive into account when I built him. Also I went atmogs, so that probably explained the big dip in power.
On February 15 2012 07:44 [NoiSe] wrote: Is there anyone that just straight up beats down WuKong? I really enjoyed playing him when released, but ended up playing more Irelia/GP solo top for the more secure laning.
I felt like WuKong dropped off a lot lategame when I played him, but after reading this guide I realized I wasn't taking his passive into account when I built him. Also I went atmogs, so that probably explained the big dip in power.
I feel like if anything, wukong's mid/lategame is just ridiculously monstrous. The scaling on his ult is just so redonkulous that I've seen soo many monkeys just utterly fail in lane yet still end up with amazing scores simply because his ulti is easily doing like 1k damage in a decent aoe.
On February 15 2012 07:24 NeoIllusions wrote: Monkey stays in Lane. EQ to victory.
(Smash and I haven't tried JungleKong yet. Smash isn't a jungler, I don't find much appeal to him in Jungle when there's scorp, dragon lady, and living tree)
lol, neo, you don't know every game I've played bro. :p
I've played a few jangle mankey games, and my thoughts are that he needs farm and levels too much for the jungle, but that he's passable. W + red ganks are strong, and level 6 ganks are strong, but I felt the lack of levels and items pretty badly come midgame. It's a small sample size of games so take it with a grain of salt, but I'd say he's a much better fit for top than jangle.
I know you better than you know yourself. Pro stalker.
Basically you need to be able to beat Wukong in damage trades, so it's a pretty limited number of champs. He hits hard enough to knock most sustainers out of lane, though I'd bet WW is a problem since he can just rush Frozen and Q you every time you come in with E. I've heard Irelia is problematic, but I'm having a hard time seeing it (have never played it). Wu's actually strong enough on burst trades to beat Swain and Rumble in my experience, so that's pretty impressive, I wonder if he could handle Ryze, Kennen, and Yorrick (the other Melee countering assholes).
On February 15 2012 07:52 Mogwai wrote: Riven destroys Wukong, so does Pantheon.
Basically you need to be able to beat Wukong in damage trades, so it's a pretty limited number of champs. He hits hard enough to knock most sustainers out of lane, though I'd bet WW is a problem since he can just rush Frozen and Q you every time you come in with E. I've heard Irelia is problematic, but I'm having a hard time seeing it (have never played it). Wu's actually strong enough on burst trades to beat Swain and Rumble in my experience, so that's pretty impressive, I wonder if he could handle Ryze, Kennen, and Yorrick (the other Melee countering assholes).
Maybe my problem laning with him then was just not being aggressive enough in lane whenever people want to trade.
This is random but I think it's really strange how quickly his ult jumps in power between levels 1 and 2. =|
Edit: actually now that I look at the numbers again, it jumps just as drastically between 2 and 3. o.o
Anyway, I've had sucess when I'm doing well just rushing BT after dblades and like getting warmogs and atmas after. Smash' build probably makes more sense in most situations though.
Then again, I've had sucess with wriggles, trinity, ga, phage/brutalizer builds and as well. Wukong just too stronk. Really good teamfighter can either hit all the team with ulti or 1 combo their AD carry or both if you have flash up.
On February 15 2012 08:06 Slayer91 wrote: I remember wickd saying he hard counters ryze.
Anyway, I've had sucess when I'm doing well just rushing BT after dblades and like getting warmogs and atmas after. Smash' build probably makes more sense in most situations though.
Then again, I've had sucess with wriggles, trinity, ga, phage/brutalizer builds and as well. Wukong just too stronk. Really good teamfighter can either hit all the team with ulti or 1 combo their AD carry or both if you have flash up.
BTs on Kong? Sounds like Riven. You have to be crazy snowballed but proper use of W can make sure you don't die and lose all your stacks. I've never tried a more hardy AD build on Kong before but I'm sure his EQ hits like a truck.
Nimbus strike mana cost is actually 45/50/55/60/65, not 45 at all levels.
I also would like to have more opinions on Wukong in the jungle. I've tried a few games and it wasn't so bad. Clearing time is average, but he takes quite a beating even with cloth + 5 pots. Later Nimbus strike does AoE damage and gives AS so his clearing time stays correct. I really enjoyed his ganks mid. At my level (around 1300 elo) usually people don't ward mid and decoy + nimbus strike covers a lot of distance so I'm garranted at least E + Q + one AA which is a lot of damage on an AP carry. Of course ganks become even better when he finally gets his ultimate. So far I've built wriggles, hog, aegis as core. His passive helps with the lack of farm later in the game.
On February 15 2012 08:06 Slayer91 wrote: I remember wickd saying he hard counters ryze.
Anyway, I've had sucess when I'm doing well just rushing BT after dblades and like getting warmogs and atmas after. Smash' build probably makes more sense in most situations though.
Then again, I've had sucess with wriggles, trinity, ga, phage/brutalizer builds and as well. Wukong just too stronk. Really good teamfighter can either hit all the team with ulti or 1 combo their AD carry or both if you have flash up.
BTs on Kong? Sounds like Riven. You have to be crazy snowballed but proper use of W can make sure you don't die and lose all your stacks. I've never tried a more hardy AD build on Kong before but I'm sure his EQ hits like a truck.
If you take a look at the AD ratio on his ultimate it makes sense. It's ridiculous how much damage that thing does. Totally makes garen seem like a bad champion.
I was wondering when someone would get around to making a monkey guide. Simply put, the monkey wins teamfights with his ult. If you catch enemy carries in the ult, it's GG.
As for laning, I feel like WuKong loses to anyone who can dictate the terms of trade initiation. Pantheon and Yorick immediately come to mind. As a general rule, WK only wins when he is able to freely engage and disengage using his W.
Monkey always kills me in team fights. Do you have any suggestions for dealing with him in team fights? It feels like even if he went average or mediocre in lane I always feel like he can stealth in and AOE a ton of people with his ult and do a lot of work really quickly.
I'm pretty bad at team-fighting in general but Wukong especially seems tough to deal with. Is oracles a necessity or are there any good ways of keeping him from wrecking face?
On February 16 2012 00:46 OhNeverMind wrote: Monkey always kills me in team fights. Do you have any suggestions for dealing with him in team fights? It feels like even if he went average or mediocre in lane I always feel like he can stealth in and AOE a ton of people with his ult and do a lot of work really quickly.
I'm pretty bad at team-fighting in general but Wukong especially seems tough to deal with. Is oracles a necessity or are there any good ways of keeping him from wrecking face?
Monkey is doing what Monkey should. Assuming you're a AD or AP squishy, avoid clumping together too closely where he can stealth in and AoE. You can be a little bit more risky if you have Flash up. If he's using W to initiate, your team should burst him down since he has no form of escape besides summoners.
On February 15 2012 07:52 Mogwai wrote: Riven destroys Wukong, so does Pantheon.
Basically you need to be able to beat Wukong in damage trades, so it's a pretty limited number of champs. He hits hard enough to knock most sustainers out of lane, though I'd bet WW is a problem since he can just rush Frozen and Q you every time you come in with E. I've heard Irelia is problematic, but I'm having a hard time seeing it (have never played it). Wu's actually strong enough on burst trades to beat Swain and Rumble in my experience, so that's pretty impressive, I wonder if he could handle Ryze, Kennen, and Yorrick (the other Melee countering assholes).
Maybe my problem laning with him then was just not being aggressive enough in lane whenever people want to trade.
This is random but I think it's really strange how quickly his ult jumps in power between levels 1 and 2. =|
Edit: actually now that I look at the numbers again, it jumps just as drastically between 2 and 3. o.o
Yea, the level scaling on his ult is great. It's pretty huge at all levels though. Even at just base damage @ level 6, it hits for 435 damage over the duration. Pretty nutty.
On February 15 2012 08:06 Slayer91 wrote: I remember wickd saying he hard counters ryze.
Anyway, I've had sucess when I'm doing well just rushing BT after dblades and like getting warmogs and atmas after. Smash' build probably makes more sense in most situations though.
Then again, I've had sucess with wriggles, trinity, ga, phage/brutalizer builds and as well. Wukong just too stronk. Really good teamfighter can either hit all the team with ulti or 1 combo their AD carry or both if you have flash up.
BT is beastly when you can get it, but it's really rare that I can afford to delay all defensive items for 3000 gold and get away with it. I usually can only make it work when I'm getting fed and split pushing top all day. I find myself needing HP items if I need to teamfight early dragons.
On February 15 2012 08:06 Slayer91 wrote: I remember wickd saying he hard counters ryze.
Anyway, I've had sucess when I'm doing well just rushing BT after dblades and like getting warmogs and atmas after. Smash' build probably makes more sense in most situations though.
Then again, I've had sucess with wriggles, trinity, ga, phage/brutalizer builds and as well. Wukong just too stronk. Really good teamfighter can either hit all the team with ulti or 1 combo their AD carry or both if you have flash up.
BTs on Kong? Sounds like Riven. You have to be crazy snowballed but proper use of W can make sure you don't die and lose all your stacks. I've never tried a more hardy AD build on Kong before but I'm sure his EQ hits like a truck.
If you take a look at the AD ratio on his ultimate it makes sense. It's ridiculous how much damage that thing does. Totally makes garen seem like a bad champion.
That's because Garen is a bad champion.
On February 15 2012 11:19 xDaunt wrote: I was wondering when someone would get around to making a monkey guide. Simply put, the monkey wins teamfights with his ult. If you catch enemy carries in the ult, it's GG.
As for laning, I feel like WuKong loses to anyone who can dictate the terms of trade initiation. Pantheon and Yorick immediately come to mind. As a general rule, WK only wins when he is able to freely engage and disengage using his W.
W isn't really that necessary in most lanes. 90% of the reason Pantheon is a bad matchup is that his passive + W rapes your burst from Q so hard. Haven't played vs yorick yet, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Monkey could beat him with a more defensive spec just from the fact that Yorick relies on sustain so hard.
On February 16 2012 00:46 OhNeverMind wrote: Monkey always kills me in team fights. Do you have any suggestions for dealing with him in team fights? It feels like even if he went average or mediocre in lane I always feel like he can stealth in and AOE a ton of people with his ult and do a lot of work really quickly.
I'm pretty bad at team-fighting in general but Wukong especially seems tough to deal with. Is oracles a necessity or are there any good ways of keeping him from wrecking face?
Pretty much what Neo said. Monkey's designed to explode squishies in teamfights. Your best bet is stay way far back and dodge the majority of his ult as best you can. It also helps if you're vayne and can knock him back with your E, or if you're support is Alistar/Janna so that they can knock him back. Repositioning can screw monkey over pretty hard.
His kit is also nice because it's hard to tower dive him : W & ulti and the EQ once they are in wtf mode because they see their life dropping so fast from turret + ulti.
On February 15 2012 07:24 NeoIllusions wrote: Monkey stays in Lane. EQ to victory.
(Smash and I haven't tried JungleKong yet. Smash isn't a jungler, I don't find much appeal to him in Jungle when there's scorp, dragon lady, and living tree)
lol, neo, you don't know every game I've played bro. :p
I've played a few jangle mankey games, and my thoughts are that he needs farm and levels too much for the jungle, but that he's passable. W + red ganks are strong, and level 6 ganks are strong, but I felt the lack of levels and items pretty badly come midgame. It's a small sample size of games so take it with a grain of salt, but I'd say he's a much better fit for top than jangle.
I know you better than you know yourself. Pro stalker.
Dunt lyez.
can you stop typing like this? it's so annoying to see someone who types "moar plz" and "dunt lyez" and calls champs "scorp" and "dragon lady," especially cause you shit up so many threads with pointless posts like this one, and even MORE especially because having a special icon, you "represent" our forum a bit and you should be setting a good example on quality posts instead of shitty ones. like i get it if you want to be a little cute with your posts, but you do this non-stop and it's really a turn-off for an otherwise really insightful pretty professional forum (contrast your posts to yango's, navitar's, suess', etc)
smash, is wukong v irelia an insta win for wukong? i'm a decent or average irelia and i can usually stalemate most lanes, but i feel like wukong is unwinnable.
It's weird, I've never actually run into that matchup on the wukong side. From the Irelia side, I've played it a couple of times and every time I've obliterated wukong. early levels are a little rough, but post wriggle's it seems like wukong can't trade with Irelia if she uses her skills properly. E his E, W, attack, if he sticks around after the stun, he's already lost most of his AS buff and now commits to eat an extra 1-2 attacks off your W in order to land his Q. Then when he tries to disengage, you can just follow with Q and get extra beats in, then disengage and heal up off of creeps. Wu vs. heavy sustainers like Irelia, WW and Xin is really weird and on the Wu side (mostly vs. WW at this point) I've always asked for early jungle ganks to give me a lead, after which he can trade favorably, but he NEEDS that lead (in my experience) to be able to trade well.
On February 15 2012 07:24 NeoIllusions wrote: Monkey stays in Lane. EQ to victory.
(Smash and I haven't tried JungleKong yet. Smash isn't a jungler, I don't find much appeal to him in Jungle when there's scorp, dragon lady, and living tree)
lol, neo, you don't know every game I've played bro. :p
I've played a few jangle mankey games, and my thoughts are that he needs farm and levels too much for the jungle, but that he's passable. W + red ganks are strong, and level 6 ganks are strong, but I felt the lack of levels and items pretty badly come midgame. It's a small sample size of games so take it with a grain of salt, but I'd say he's a much better fit for top than jangle.
I know you better than you know yourself. Pro stalker.
Dunt lyez.
can you stop typing like this? it's so annoying to see someone who types "moar plz" and "dunt lyez" and calls champs "scorp" and "dragon lady," especially cause you shit up so many threads with pointless posts like this one, and even MORE especially because having a special icon, you "represent" our forum a bit and you should be setting a good example on quality posts instead of shitty ones. like i get it if you want to be a little cute with your posts, but you do this non-stop and it's really a turn-off for an otherwise really insightful pretty professional forum (contrast your posts to yango's, navitar's, suess', etc)
smash, is wukong v irelia an insta win for wukong? i'm a decent or average irelia and i can usually stalemate most lanes, but i feel like wukong is unwinnable.
God damn it, Neo! You have a ban hammer now you have to start getting your stuck up nazi act on before you even think of posting.
And it feels like if there's any counter to wukong irelias going to be one of them. The guy has really high burst and an escape skill combined with high natural resists what beats that if not true damage+sustain+Tank?
On February 23 2012 05:03 Mogwai wrote: It's weird, I've never actually run into that matchup on the wukong side. From the Irelia side, I've played it a couple of times and every time I've obliterated wukong. early levels are a little rough, but post wriggle's it seems like wukong can't trade with Irelia if she uses her skills properly. E his E, W, attack, if he sticks around after the stun, he's already lost most of his AS buff and now commits to eat an extra 1-2 attacks off your W in order to land his Q. Then when he tries to disengage, you can just follow with Q and get extra beats in, then disengage and heal up off of creeps. Wu vs. heavy sustainers like Irelia, WW and Xin is really weird and on the Wu side (mostly vs. WW at this point) I've always asked for early jungle ganks to give me a lead, after which he can trade favorably, but he NEEDS that lead (in my experience) to be able to trade well.
i played this lane exactly how you said, and he crushed me again
it's stupid, it's an even lane until 6, then he just E-Q-R-ignite and i insta-die from full health.
previous times i played this lane, i was extremely aggressive and got punished for it. after reading your suggestion, i decided to play this lane reactively instead of proactively. so i waited and waited and waited for him to E so i could do what you said, and he never did. if irelia winning this lane pre-6 is reliant on wukong's aggressiveness, how do you deal with a wukong that is just as passive (until 6)? this last time i played the lane, i even felt extra clever, because at level 5 i finally caught him E-ing onto a creep for a last hit and trying to W away - i didn't fall for the clone, walked to where i knew he'd re-appear, stunned, got 3 hits of W on, Q'd for another W proc and backed off - got him to 50% health, whereupon in the next 2 or 3 creeps he hit 6 and literally just 100->0'd me with EQRignite.
i need a video walkthrough on how to play the matchup from the irelia side
On February 23 2012 05:03 Mogwai wrote: It's weird, I've never actually run into that matchup on the wukong side. From the Irelia side, I've played it a couple of times and every time I've obliterated wukong. early levels are a little rough, but post wriggle's it seems like wukong can't trade with Irelia if she uses her skills properly. E his E, W, attack, if he sticks around after the stun, he's already lost most of his AS buff and now commits to eat an extra 1-2 attacks off your W in order to land his Q. Then when he tries to disengage, you can just follow with Q and get extra beats in, then disengage and heal up off of creeps. Wu vs. heavy sustainers like Irelia, WW and Xin is really weird and on the Wu side (mostly vs. WW at this point) I've always asked for early jungle ganks to give me a lead, after which he can trade favorably, but he NEEDS that lead (in my experience) to be able to trade well.
i played this lane exactly how you said, and he crushed me again
it's stupid, it's an even lane until 6, then he just E-Q-R-ignite and i insta-die from full health.
previous times i played this lane, i was extremely aggressive and got punished for it. after reading your suggestion, i decided to play this lane reactively instead of proactively. so i waited and waited and waited for him to E so i could do what you said, and he never did. if irelia winning this lane pre-6 is reliant on wukong's aggressiveness, how do you deal with a wukong that is just as passive (until 6)? this last time i played the lane, i even felt extra clever, because at level 5 i finally caught him E-ing onto a creep for a last hit and trying to W away - i didn't fall for the clone, walked to where i knew he'd re-appear, stunned, got 3 hits of W on, Q'd for another W proc and backed off - got him to 50% health, whereupon in the next 2 or 3 creeps he hit 6 and literally just 100->0'd me with EQRignite.
i need a video walkthrough on how to play the matchup from the irelia side
either you're wrong about being full hp, not speccing tanky enough or I've been playing wukong terribly wrong because there is no fucking way he should be able to 100->0 you at 6.
On February 23 2012 05:03 Mogwai wrote: It's weird, I've never actually run into that matchup on the wukong side. From the Irelia side, I've played it a couple of times and every time I've obliterated wukong. early levels are a little rough, but post wriggle's it seems like wukong can't trade with Irelia if she uses her skills properly. E his E, W, attack, if he sticks around after the stun, he's already lost most of his AS buff and now commits to eat an extra 1-2 attacks off your W in order to land his Q. Then when he tries to disengage, you can just follow with Q and get extra beats in, then disengage and heal up off of creeps. Wu vs. heavy sustainers like Irelia, WW and Xin is really weird and on the Wu side (mostly vs. WW at this point) I've always asked for early jungle ganks to give me a lead, after which he can trade favorably, but he NEEDS that lead (in my experience) to be able to trade well.
i played this lane exactly how you said, and he crushed me again
it's stupid, it's an even lane until 6, then he just E-Q-R-ignite and i insta-die from full health.
previous times i played this lane, i was extremely aggressive and got punished for it. after reading your suggestion, i decided to play this lane reactively instead of proactively. so i waited and waited and waited for him to E so i could do what you said, and he never did. if irelia winning this lane pre-6 is reliant on wukong's aggressiveness, how do you deal with a wukong that is just as passive (until 6)? this last time i played the lane, i even felt extra clever, because at level 5 i finally caught him E-ing onto a creep for a last hit and trying to W away - i didn't fall for the clone, walked to where i knew he'd re-appear, stunned, got 3 hits of W on, Q'd for another W proc and backed off - got him to 50% health, whereupon in the next 2 or 3 creeps he hit 6 and literally just 100->0'd me with EQRignite.
i need a video walkthrough on how to play the matchup from the irelia side
either you're wrong about being full hp, not speccing tanky enough or I've been playing wukong terribly wrong because there is no fucking way he should be able to 100->0 you at 6.
On February 23 2012 05:03 Mogwai wrote: It's weird, I've never actually run into that matchup on the wukong side. From the Irelia side, I've played it a couple of times and every time I've obliterated wukong. early levels are a little rough, but post wriggle's it seems like wukong can't trade with Irelia if she uses her skills properly. E his E, W, attack, if he sticks around after the stun, he's already lost most of his AS buff and now commits to eat an extra 1-2 attacks off your W in order to land his Q. Then when he tries to disengage, you can just follow with Q and get extra beats in, then disengage and heal up off of creeps. Wu vs. heavy sustainers like Irelia, WW and Xin is really weird and on the Wu side (mostly vs. WW at this point) I've always asked for early jungle ganks to give me a lead, after which he can trade favorably, but he NEEDS that lead (in my experience) to be able to trade well.
i played this lane exactly how you said, and he crushed me again
it's stupid, it's an even lane until 6, then he just E-Q-R-ignite and i insta-die from full health.
previous times i played this lane, i was extremely aggressive and got punished for it. after reading your suggestion, i decided to play this lane reactively instead of proactively. so i waited and waited and waited for him to E so i could do what you said, and he never did. if irelia winning this lane pre-6 is reliant on wukong's aggressiveness, how do you deal with a wukong that is just as passive (until 6)? this last time i played the lane, i even felt extra clever, because at level 5 i finally caught him E-ing onto a creep for a last hit and trying to W away - i didn't fall for the clone, walked to where i knew he'd re-appear, stunned, got 3 hits of W on, Q'd for another W proc and backed off - got him to 50% health, whereupon in the next 2 or 3 creeps he hit 6 and literally just 100->0'd me with EQRignite.
i need a video walkthrough on how to play the matchup from the irelia side
either you're wrong about being full hp, not speccing tanky enough or I've been playing wukong terribly wrong because there is no fucking way he should be able to 100->0 you at 6.
17 armor from runes, 0/21/9, cloth + 5 start
Well if level 6 vs. level 6, he's 100->0ing you in one combo, I want you to look at his spec after the game and post it here cause there's no way he should be able to do that.
EDIT: also, you should run 9/21/0 on irelia, AD, AS and ArPen masteries are really nice on her.
On February 24 2012 05:09 gtrsrs wrote: can you just list some matchup specific scenarios on how to play wu-kong? i guess i need to start with some easy matchups to learn him
i feel like he's OP when i play against him and extremely weak in my hands
Same. He lacks something when you play him. It's like my damage isn't anywhere near what it seems like when im against wukong.
You press E, you auto hit, animation cancel with Q, and then keep hitting until you want to get away or use W to get away, if you have ult you ult on top of that, I don't see why this guy is confusing to you guys. Toss on ignite if it's in kill range. Hopefully when ult is done you'll be able to chase down and E auto hit Q him again to finish him off.
On February 24 2012 05:19 Slayer91 wrote: You press E, you auto hit, animation cancel with Q, and then keep hitting until you want to get away or use W to get away, if you have ult you ult on top of that, I don't see why this guy is confusing to you guys. Toss on ignite if it's in kill range. Hopefully when ult is done you'll be able to chase down and E auto hit Q him again to finish him off.
yep, pretty much. his 1v1 playstyle is pretty straightforward.
Meh, jax lost his tankiness and nobody knows what tank items to build on jax to make him effective now. His base damage is much higher i'm not sure if you need any real damage items maybe irelia type stuff with wits end and phage might be good but I don't know.
Yesterday I picked Wukong for top before the enemy team had picked a top. They chose a Warwick. He started Dring while i started boots 3. He came from blue with about 3/4 health so I figured he tanked some hits by accident and I engaged on him in the bush (I was top, he was bottom.) I auto'd till he Q'd then chased with E while hitting him as he ran since I started boots and forced him out of lane at level 2.
He came back with boots and a ward and I forced him out again. I hit 6 and killed him with ignite/ult. I was up a kill and about 25 CS at this point. After some more time he gets wriggles while I have been unsuccessful in forcing him out of lane again. I had gone 2 dorans/mercs and was building bruta while he had tabi and wriggles. He killed me dove me when we were both 3/4 health with the help of a Man drop gank on my tower.
After this point I was effectively zoned, WW just autoattacked me whenever I came into range for creeps and my EQ auto attack was not trading efficiently with his Q's. And having to use W burned my mana every trade while he was able to just heal up on creeps and constantly pushed the lane. The rest of my team wasn't helpful when I asked (for ganks and such) so I am wondering what I could have done myself to prevent this from happening.
The only thing I can think of is instead of 2 dorans, to go wriggles myself and skip bruta and go straight to phage but even then I don't see how efficient I can trade after a certain point.
Just looking for pointers in the Monkey vs Werewolf battle
On February 25 2012 06:07 Bladeorade wrote: Yesterday I picked Wukong for top before the enemy team had picked a top. They chose a Warwick. He started Dring while i started boots 3. He came from blue with about 3/4 health so I figured he tanked some hits by accident and I engaged on him in the bush (I was top, he was bottom.) I auto'd till he Q'd then chased with E while hitting him as he ran since I started boots and forced him out of lane at level 2.
He came back with boots and a ward and I forced him out again. I hit 6 and killed him with ignite/ult. I was up a kill and about 25 CS at this point. After some more time he gets wriggles while I have been unsuccessful in forcing him out of lane again. I had gone 2 dorans/mercs and was building bruta while he had tabi and wriggles. He killed me dove me when we were both 3/4 health with the help of a Man drop gank on my tower.
After this point I was effectively zoned, WW just autoattacked me whenever I came into range for creeps and my EQ auto attack was not trading efficiently with his Q's. And having to use W burned my mana every trade while he was able to just heal up on creeps and constantly pushed the lane. The rest of my team wasn't helpful when I asked (for ganks and such) so I am wondering what I could have done myself to prevent this from happening.
The only thing I can think of is instead of 2 dorans, to go wriggles myself and skip bruta and go straight to phage but even then I don't see how efficient I can trade after a certain point.
Just looking for pointers in the Monkey vs Werewolf battle
You allocated your money poorly. You're playing burst vs. sustain, so when you commit 850 unnecessary gold towards merc treads, it's no surprise that he murdered you. You basically threw away your lead for stats that don't help you in the matchup. Instead of building mercs and then working towards a brutalizer vs. a dude with well over 100 armor, build a Wriggle's, then move on to Phage. You have to keep your burst higher than his sustain while also giving yourself enough sustain to heal off his Q damage to trade favorably. defensive investments aren't going to allow you to do that, especially one that spends ~400 gold purely on CC reduction that is literally uselss vs. WW in lane.
Could you tell me when I should pick the Monkey over Riven ? I find both to have a similar gameplan but don't really grasp when the monkey is better (except that he's much more scary late game). Thank you very much !
I wouldnt even suggest going into wriggles vs a WW. I would go Dorans start, with Ad red/quints. Try to get an advantage, try to push him out of lane, make him go B before you do, try to edge out an advantage.
But i agree completely with the boots statement. You wasted gold on an investment that was not worth it at that time.
When I wukong (who is my complete 100% favorite hero) I have found that getting to lvl 4 and starting with Dorans/Ad reds and quints. At level 4 you use your full combo to get in, get out taking the least amount of damage possible. And you should be able to force them back, even if you have to use an ignite. I dont suggest using ur Q/E early unless he walks into melee range and gives u a free shot., wait till lvl 4 and use ur full combo to try to out-trade him. I dont bother going wriggles when I play top, as getting double dorans and then going into brutalizer will let you trade more efficiently with full combo's. Wukong's sustain isnt great but his poke is pretty damn good after lvl 4. So i dont like to waste gold on Wriggles when i play top as wukong, instead I go for more pure damage to boost my poke combo damage to try to edge out a 1v1 lead over top.
Also most heros that counter wukong in lane phase, are not nearly as strong in the mid/late game as long as the other doesnt get insanely ahead in farm or kills. Wukongs ult is one of the best teamfight ults in the game (especially when grouped with other Aoe ults like Malphite, Kennen, Vlad, etc).
In my opinion it is REALLY easy to counter wukong in hero selection, as a LOT of top bruisers out sustain him, but with a jungle helping you top a lot you will carry ur team a lot harder later than others.
Ive played with HP5 quints, armor quints, move speed quints, armor pen quints... and I always came back to the fact that Wukong has shitty sustain, and will never outsustain the heros that have really good sustain (like Garen, irelia, Warwick etc). and to the guy who went against a WW and was questioning about the matchup.... you will NEVER out sustain him, your only chance is outplaying him and managing ur cooldowns/mana like a beast and work him down til he gets lazy and u catch him with low enuf hp to either kill him or force him off the lane.
IMO your options are to Bully them due to runes/masters/greedy dorans start. OR Get a lot of help from your jungle to help get you into the lead so you can not be bullied out of ur own lane.
I would never start with dorans @top lane, because if a jungle gank comes, you're slow as hell and you have zero sustain. You won't win any trades if your opponent goes cloth/5pot or boots/3pot.
On March 12 2012 21:32 meltzu wrote: I would never start with dorans @top lane, because if a jungle gank comes, you're slow as hell and you have zero sustain. You won't win any trades if your opponent goes cloth/5pot or boots/3pot.
Well, there are a few cases where you want a dorans. Someone like Pantheon, for example, is going to look to trade at every opportunity. With a dorans blade there is NO way you are going to be able to out trade him, and because of how low CD his spear is, he will either get a kill or have the enemy completely zoned.
I dont know if Wukong is capable of THAT kind of play, but he very well could be.
I wouldn't open doran's on Wukong. For every game that that will win you via the early burst, you'll probably lose two or three due to early jungle ganks killing you or forcing you back when your lane is pushing. Wukong ain't no Pantheon, you shouldn't go that ballsy.
As for Wu vs. Riven. Wu has a scarier initial teamfight presence by a lot. E -> R has a lot of reach and is a giant AoE problem, whereas Riven moves in shorter bursts and has no threats that really compare to Wu's ult. That being said, Riven's a superior duelist and wins a lot of lanes that Wu can't. She's also a little asshole though, so if you want to be a real man, you should always pick Wukong.
Early levels seemed pretty even, but his jungler ganked at level 3, I escaped but lost a lot health. After that I was slightly zoned for a little bit. He backed and bought Wriggle's, I could only afford Madred's. And then he just started trucking me, like half my health in 2-3 hits of Tiger stance, my damage was pitiful in comparison. Even CS under tower he would get stray hits it that chunked me.
Eventually things turned around a bit when he and their jungler tower dived me and I got a double kill, but the lane seemed really, really hard. Even after the double I couldn't find him 1v1 until much later in the game.
On March 12 2012 21:32 meltzu wrote: I would never start with dorans @top lane, because if a jungle gank comes, you're slow as hell and you have zero sustain. You won't win any trades if your opponent goes cloth/5pot or boots/3pot.
Well, there are a few cases where you want a dorans. Someone like Pantheon, for example, is going to look to trade at every opportunity. With a dorans blade there is NO way you are going to be able to out trade him, and because of how low CD his spear is, he will either get a kill or have the enemy completely zoned.
I dont know if Wukong is capable of THAT kind of play, but he very well could be.
Well Pantheon hard counters wukong in my opinion, as his passive = there is no poking in and out.
In Lanes like there where you clearly have no chance of winning in trades u have to start cloth 5 or boots 3.
I shouldnt say always start dorans, but i feel like dorans is a strong start against lanes where you have the potential of bullying.
however, in some matchups, you just flat out lose regardless of how the 2 of you start in regards to items.
IN my opinion to post above me, against Udyr, you just sort of survive, and build around lvl 6.
Get to a point where when you reach lvl 6 you have best possible items that u can and at least remain even in lvls.
At lvl 6 you get ur ultimate which is a big stun and a lot of damage, as well as the 3rd skill to a combo. At lvl 6 for udyr he only gets another point in something he already had. He doesnt get any real big gain at lvl 6.
IMO if you can NOT get bullied by udyr pre-6 then you gain a LOT of ground once you have ur ult/ignite up as with full combos u can do quite a bit to him, either forcing him to be less aggressive or force a kill/back.
I've met a panth starting dblade and I could dominate with ease starting cloth+5 pots 21/9/0, armor quints+yellows + passive, you have a ton of armor. I just trade at lvl 1 and back around 50% health ofc he has more life and i'm zoned the time for pot to resplenish, then repeat, he will soon be in danger zone, you have to profit from the AS boost from E and armor debuff from Q, I trade a bit longer with him than I do with the others. When you both hit lvl 4, he can do his combo but he runs oom quickly and does not do that much of damage with all the armor you have and W. Anyway just keep in mind you win the lane if he does not kill you and don't have big CS lead. And panth really escapes bad from gangs, aslo a big minion in lane allows you to go for cs and jump on him if he aggros the big one which cancel his shield.
In fact, I just love when anyone does not start cloth+pots vs wukong, kennen and rumble for exemple often starts boots + 3 and you can trade so well with them. I specially love the pushed rumble, "I'm at my tower, I want my CS soI don't care if I autosilence" then you E Q ignite R on him and he often moans on this stupid silence in all chat.
Udyr pretty much stomps Wu. Yes you make up ground at level 6, but that only matters if your jungler comes, as you cannot burst that fucker even with EQR+ignite. It's a bad matchup. Generally speaking, it's kinda impossible to trade with Udyr or sustain vs. him. Udyr is a huge fucking problem top right now but people don't seem fully aware of it yet.
Panth destroys Wu by opening dblade. All he has to do in the above scenario is back after he gets to your tower after zoning you for a couple minutes and depleting your pots a bit, buy his own pots and a ward, and then you're fucked because your lane will start pushing and he has an item edge so it's right back to getting zoned again. The dude you played vs. done fucked it up.
On March 14 2012 00:00 Mogwai wrote: Udyr pretty much stomps Wu. Yes you make up ground at level 6, but that only matters if your jungler comes, as you cannot burst that fucker even with EQR+ignite. It's a bad matchup. Generally speaking, it's kinda impossible to trade with Udyr or sustain vs. him. Udyr is a huge fucking problem top right now but people don't seem fully aware of it yet.
Panth destroys Wu by opening dblade. All he has to do in the above scenario is back after he gets to your tower after zoning you for a couple minutes and depleting your pots a bit, buy his own pots and a ward, and then you're fucked because your lane will start pushing and he has an item edge so it's right back to getting zoned again. The dude you played vs. done fucked it up.
It was not only one, but i'm only around 1600. Thank you for the help playing panth. But I don't understand how panth can do more than 5x150-100 from dblade so 650 dmg more than wuk does him in several trades early. I'd like to try to understand. Because you really have a tons of armor while you nearly does true damage to him with 21 apen +Q.
On December 15 2011 04:32 Mogwai wrote: It's simple, you cannot commit to a fight with cloth armor vs. dblade, dblade guy wins every time. So essentially, with dblade, you pick fights and put the responsibility for disengaging on your opponents. Disengaging from dblade Pantheon with cloth armor means you eat an extra spear to the back of the head, every time. It also means that while you pot up, Pantheon builds his passive back up and lifesteals and gains cs and levels on you. This means you simple cannot fight him until the creep wave equalizes so that you catch up in levels and have time to let your pots kick in, which can only happen once it gets to your tower because Pantheon will not let you get into position to shove the wave back without forcing another unfavorable trade. Once he gets you to your tower, Pantheon has an option: 1. he's ahead enough to dive you and kill you (always good for panth, even if he dies because he gets FB gold and you miss out of a ton of XP to the tower murdering his pushing wave) 2. he's not ahead enough to dive you and he backs off to buy. now, this might seem to be like it's a way that he lets you catch back up, but in reality this FUCKS people up because they're usually down 3-4 pots, down in cs from having to last hit under tower at low level and Pantheon returns with bare minimum 3 pots + a ward or even up to boots + that or a 2nd dblade + ward + 1-2 pots. If you try to catch up to him on items, you have to back. If you back, he can push the wave to your tower if his wave is pushing, or even worse he can pull the wave to his tower if your wave is pushing, which lets him safely zone you with a river ward and item advantage.
thing is, that even if they could break completely even with you with cloth + 5 pots, they consumed 175 gold on potions, while you didn't. I don't care if cloth builds into stuff, dblade is stupidly efficient, I wouldn't regret the purchase because they're not looking at the same sort of efficiency from their cloth armor until they get to wriggle's which is 1300 gold down the road, 1650 if they want boots and more realistically ~2000 if they want to ward and get the pots they need to not get butchered like an animal in lane.
From my Panth thread ^
Most people don't understand how to play the dblade opening though, so if they just sit in lane when their wave gets to your tower with no pots and no wards, you'll win with cloth every time.
Little awesome tricks with wukong : - When laning against a melee, max W and aggressively walk and press S very often. You'll be able to farm and harrass with fun mindgames.
When getting chased by (smart) opponents; - Instead of pressing W and running to your tower; press S instead of W. then wait a few seconds and press W to run in opposite direction. Saved my life multiple times and it always feels great.
I love Wukong, I even jungle with him from time to time Because monkeys LIVE in the jungle yo
On March 14 2012 05:00 Mogwai wrote: maxing W is one of the stupidest things you can do with Wu, sorry mang.
agreed. ur killing ur damage so much by doing this.. there is NO way its worth it.
But I do enjoy jungling as wukong tho like mentioned.
His ganks are weak until 6, but not terrible witha red buff.
Also u can come thru the top lane thru the top bush, w from the first bush to the 2nd one (obv ur top lane has to shove a bit here) and then when u pop from the 2nd bush in behind him or even in front of him its a bit of an "o shit" moment for their top.
On March 14 2012 05:00 Mogwai wrote: maxing W is one of the stupidest things you can do with Wu, sorry mang.
agreed. ur killing ur damage so much by doing this.. there is NO way its worth it.
But I do enjoy jungling as wukong tho like mentioned.
His ganks are weak until 6, but not terrible witha red buff.
Also u can come thru the top lane thru the top bush, w from the first bush to the 2nd one (obv ur top lane has to shove a bit here) and then when u pop from the 2nd bush in behind him or even in front of him its a bit of an "o shit" moment for their top.
you're over complicating the gank, just W out of that bush and smack them in the face with your red instead of trying to set up the long con, lol.
honestly though, I'm not a big fan of jangle Wu. he benefits so much from the farm level you get in top lane. every time I jungle wu, I just get sad at like 25 minutes when I hit their ranged AD with EQR and they don't die .
Man, I just played Wukong solo top vs Garen and got destroyed. I would E onto him, auto, Q, and he would silence me so I couldn't W, and he would proceed to start killing me, and chasing me if I ran, and when I got unsilenced and used W, he'd spin and kill me. (I opened cloth+5 and he opened D-Blade)
Do I have to farm at my tower, or is there a better way to approach this lane?
On March 16 2012 12:07 NotTheMonker wrote: Man, I just played Wukong solo top vs Garen and got destroyed. I would E onto him, auto, Q, and he would silence me so I couldn't W, and he would proceed to start killing me, and chasing me if I ran, and when I got unsilenced and used W, he'd spin and kill me. (I opened cloth+5 and he opened D-Blade)
Do I have to farm at my tower, or is there a better way to approach this lane?
Garen is the strongest champ in early game. You should've switched lanes with a ranged ad or good trader.
On March 16 2012 12:07 NotTheMonker wrote: Man, I just played Wukong solo top vs Garen and got destroyed. I would E onto him, auto, Q, and he would silence me so I couldn't W, and he would proceed to start killing me, and chasing me if I ran, and when I got unsilenced and used W, he'd spin and kill me. (I opened cloth+5 and he opened D-Blade)
Do I have to farm at my tower, or is there a better way to approach this lane?
Garen is the strongest champ in early game. You should've switched lanes with a ranged ad or good trader.
Garen is not the strongest champ in the early game, but anyway...
Garen would probably beat wukong, but I don't see how he'll trade that favorably if you're just playing passive and making him fight in your creep wave. Just attack him back when he gets ontop of you and then Q->attack->E->attack as much as you can when he tries to disengage.
It's probably just better to farm passively against Garen- if you build tanky, you're way more useful in teamfights than Garen is, so there's really no need to kill him in lane. The longer things drag on, the more likely you can deal with him toe to toe though.
Also, I don't really understand why everyone goes Frozen Mallet on Wukong. Well I do, I just think it sucks. Wukong does not really have issues chasing down people, so Frozen Mallet will let your team catch up to someone, but that is only really useful if you're winning teamfights. From watching IEM Hanover it seemed like all the Wukongs would get a fast Frozen Mallet, which would temporarily good for securing kills, but when 5v5 team fights would roll around they wouldn't be able to survive very well at all. I find the extra hitpoints on Warmogs is so much more valuable since you're usually in the midst of the entire enemy team, so the more survivability you have, the better. Also, you already get phage from Triforce if you go that route, and even failing that it isn't unusal to have red buff.
My go to build is mercs, wriggles, warmogs, atma's, sheen into triforce (and then the game usually ends before or just after Triforce is completed). I go 1/21/8 masteries, which I think is better for teamfights, due to the CDR, initiator, and juggernaut... most of Wukong's damage (in teamfights) is from his skills, not his autoattacking, so I feel like the offensive tree helps him a lot less than I initially thought. I realize the damage on this build is rather late, but I feel like my team almost never loses team fights if I go this route becaues I'm eating so much damage my team can wail on them without having to worry too much.
On March 17 2012 05:24 zer0das wrote: It's probably just better to farm passively against Garen- if you build tanky, you're way more useful in teamfights than Garen is, so there's really no need to kill him in lane. The longer things drag on, the more likely you can deal with him toe to toe though.
Also, I don't really understand why everyone goes Frozen Mallet on Wukong. Well I do, I just think it sucks. Wukong does not really have issues chasing down people, so Frozen Mallet will let your team catch up to someone, but that is only really useful if you're winning teamfights. From watching IEM Hanover it seemed like all the Wukongs would get a fast Frozen Mallet, which would temporarily good for securing kills, but when 5v5 team fights would roll around they wouldn't be able to survive very well at all. I find the extra hitpoints on Warmogs is so much more valuable since you're usually in the midst of the entire enemy team, so the more survivability you have, the better. Also, you already get phage from Triforce if you go that route, and even failing that it isn't unusal to have red buff.
My go to build is mercs, wriggles, warmogs, atma's, sheen into triforce (and then the game usually ends before or just after Triforce is completed). I go 1/21/8 masteries, which I think is better for teamfights, due to the CDR, initiator, and juggernaut... most of Wukong's damage (in teamfights) is from his skills, not his autoattacking, so I feel like the offensive tree helps him a lot less than I initially thought. I realize the damage on this build is rather late, but I feel like my team almost never loses team fights if I go this route becaues I'm eating so much damage my team can wail on them without having to worry too much.
But you lose so much roaming power, not surviving a tf if you've knocked up 3 of them and deal insane damage is still ok. Early phage is also great when there are squirmishes at blue/red. I've had way more success massing low cost items like suggested in op, wriggles, hog, phage, bruta, hexdrinker, aegis. I think your way you lack the big burst from his E Q R combo in the early stages. R scales very well and before lvl 11 you need the extra ad from phage, bruta or aegis and also the bonuses from offensive tree.
I've been building Bloodthirster a lot more on Wukong these days. Not really sure if I like it better, but it's too much fun looking at your ult damage end game and just loling at the 600 damage/second. This character's AD scaling is straight up nuts.
There are 2 opinions that i dont agree with and Ill describe why.
I think Frozen Mallet is a good item on wukong, but its not a lot of dps, and its not very tanky.
I only do this item when i am going pure tankiness (boots, wriggles, frozen mallet, warmogs, sunfire cape, atmas). . Aside from that, i Think a triforce gives you a LOT more damage and the ability to chase/catch any1 easily.
In my opinion the best build that i have done so far on wukong= IF YOU CAN START DORANS BLADE (this playstyle is VERY different and very situational vs the more common cloth 5) this build is my ideal build: doran dorans brutalizer boots sheen, zeal, phage, triforce. warmogs, atmogs (upgrading boots between ur triforce items as needed) ( I get zeal be4 phage because i like to stay on t1 boots for a longtime and it gives me the speed boost for chasing and attacking as well as occasional crits which help a lot depending on when u get it) And my last item is very situational depending on how things are going. I sub out dorans blades as i need to. (if i HAVE to start cloth 5, i will usually still go for doran dorans and turn cloth armor into ninja tabi.. as i really think Wriggles is amazing... except on wukong. I just dont think he does enuf autoattacking for wriggles to be better than 2x dorans. and the 2x dorans are WAY less expensive. however if i Jungle wukong i will DEFINATELY get a wriggles.)
(**NOTE** Also when you go 2x dorans instead of wriggles.. everytime u go to buy, get at least 2-3 red hp pots. these will allow u to do full combos, and then regen ur hp back to full, and u will push them off the lane, especially if they went wriggles and didnt buy hp pots)
Why I go double dorans into brutalizer instead of wriggles: double dorans are cheaper, and give more hp/damage. Wriggles is a sustain item. And the earliest you will get wriggles is usually around lvl 6. However for nearly the same gold u can have both dorans and at least 1 or 2 swords for ur brutalizer.
AD scales AMAZINGLY with ur abilities, so getting as much pure Ad as possible early= u do MASSIVE damage by level 6. If your opponent goes Wriggles, he will have around 30 less AD, as he built a sustain item and not a damage item.
IMO wukong has shitty sustain and works BETTER as a bully/duelist. ur combo allows u to work them down into a killable or low hp range where they will either die or go b. inb oth cases u get to free farm, so sustain wont be an issue.
I dont waste gold on boots until i have dorans x2 and brutalizer. WHY? because by putting all of my gold directly into combat items i can go against some1 with boots with a guaranteed item advantage. W is a good enuf escape/distance closer to initiate. And ya if he runs he might get away, but if he is running he isnt laning or getting cs or attacking you. You would rather having him running to base with 20% than winning vs u in trades. ** ALSO** Top lane is usually a very tanky bruiser champion, who will have quit a bit of armor. Brutalizer gives u two things to help u deal with bruisers... armor pen, and cd reduction. both will boost ur damage significantly against most top heros. When you have 2x doran and a brutalizer there are few champions that will stand toe to toe with ur pokes. but DO NOT WASTE GOLD upgrading ur boots to merc treads be4 the laning phase! you are throwing away 850 gold, that delays ur brutalizer by too long. There is a window where brutalizer makes u king of the lane, get it as soon as possible.)
Why i go triforce as opposed to warmogs first. Yes warmogs will give u more tankiness, and will no doubt make u beefier in early team fights. However with a bruta/sheen your burst damage is INSANE. there is no1 to fear once you have them. And you always have your W to get in and out of team fights without dieing. And since Wukong relies on combo and not auto-attacking.... W'ing out only to combo somebody again a couple seconds later is better than building tank and just sitting there as they wail on you. (also this is where wukong shines imo. with this sort of dance. he is tanky but as soon as he needs u just w out and gtfo of the fray. as soon as you see one of them low or out of position... BOOM u E/Q him and laugh. using ur W to get into or out of kill shots that other bruisers would have to die for)
With brutalizer/sheen your burst damage is pretty insane in the midgame. And this is where you do the majority of ur gold farming. Because now you beat most heros 1v1. Getting Warmogs early gives you survivability but gimps ur damage. If you dont want to go triforce before warmogs i at LEAST suggest getting Sheen before ur warmogs. the damage boost is too good as well as the boost to ur mana pool which will give u more mana=more combo=more pokes= more damage.
I have tried philo stone openings, but the truth is you are tooooo gimp. You will do almost no damage the guy laning vs you, and you will most likely have worse sustain against most top heros. (when wukong sustain is already his weak point.) IMO Philo stone = 800 wasted gold that you could have gotten a doran and a half. (more hp more damage) Also i do not agree with a Black Cleaver because Wukong isnt much of an auto attacker, he relies on his skills. I would suggest either getting tankier or getting a bloodthirster. I rarely upgrade my bruta into a yommu's because triforce gives me the move/aspeed that i want. I usually get a sunfire cape instead, as i find that most of the time i need more tankiness the later the game goes on.
Also Vs a Garen... you will never outsustain him.. You lose this lane, until u get the brutalizer, and can do a lot of damage thru that armor.
I start boots 2 d blades (first b) phage vamp scepter (2nd b), then build it into BT FM then get atmas and last whisper. For the last item build according to the fed, or a GA. I think wriggles is worthless on wukong.
wriggle's isn't worthless on any bruiser. it's efficient at giving the stat's it gives and the stats are desirable in most bruiser vs. bruiser matchups. w/e though, I'm tired of arguing this, do w/e you want, but I'm not going to stop advocating wriggle's on wukong.
On March 20 2012 02:05 skrzmark wrote: wickd has been building BT on wukong recently
From 2 days ago, literally on the same exact page of this thread:
On March 18 2012 20:37 Mogwai wrote: I've been building Bloodthirster a lot more on Wukong these days. Not really sure if I like it better, but it's too much fun looking at your ult damage end game and just loling at the 600 damage/second. This character's AD scaling is straight up nuts.
If I'm stomping on people, sure, I'll pass up on Wriggle's for bt, but this is the exception, not the rule. In close lanes, you're going to be better off with wriggle's + phage or wriggle's + bruta than a straight BT.
On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote: sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor.
i think you are completely 100% wrong.
How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks?
Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out.
How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen?
Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold.
I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote.
i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong.
On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote: sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor.
i think you are completely 100% wrong.
How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks?
Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out.
How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen?
Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold.
I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote.
i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong.
Unlike Nasus who will nearly have max CDR for his siphoning strike procs, Wukong rarely itemizes that stat to the point where he can get Sheen going every time Q is off CD, so I don't know why Sheen would be the FIRST triforce part you'd get.
Brutalizer isn't effective when you're laning against another BRUISER. I sure as hell wouldn't try to get bruta against tabi/wriggle's anything top.
And really? The guy you're responding to is probably (read: 99% likely) more experienced playing the champion we're discussing, so there's a reason why we respect what he says.
Sheen builds mana and ap, neither of which will help win exchanges. So you're more or less paying 1260g for just the passive. Or for 55g more you could buy phage, which has both good stats and a useful passive. Just the +18 ad alone will give +120 damage to your full rotation. Factor in the hp + slow and sheen passive by itself really starts too look like its not worth 1.2k gold.
Armor is more efficient when you have low armor, so (flat) armor pen is also more efficient on low armor opponents. Example: 15 armor target -> 13% damage reduction after 15 apen -> 0% damage reduction 100 armor target -> 50% damage reduction after 15 apen -> 46% damage reduction 13% increase in damage is more than 4% :o
Wriggles is good if you want armor because its efficient and provides stats you want in addition to armor. Not much reason not to buy it if you want a mid tier item that gives armor alongside other stats. Also I don't think Mogwai was saying to buy it "just for the armor." I mean like if you ever find yourself wanting "just armor" on wukong then yeah go ahead and build 6 chain vests or w/e.
On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote: sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor.
i think you are completely 100% wrong.
How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks?
Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out.
How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen?
Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold.
I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote.
i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong.
Mogwai is a high elo player who contributes a lot of information to this subforum. He is allowed to give shorter answers without as much explanation because he is well known and we all trust that he has a thought out position. A lot of times people just want information from a better player, he wasn't trying to be mean, just helping out.
It is ok to disagree but there is no need to get huffy about it.
On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote: sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor.
i think you are completely 100% wrong.
How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks?
Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out.
How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen?
Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold.
I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote.
i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong.
If you're not well versed with the game mechanics enough to know why bruta isn't that good vs high armor targets, why wriggles is great top lane, why sheen is inferior to phage for someone like wukong I would be kinda hesitant about striding into this subforum is insulting one of our most experienced and helpful posters.
Like not knowing stuff isn't bad. But when you don't actually have correct factual information AND insult people who do and are trying to help you, then please, don't expect people to give any weight to what you say.
IMO Sheen is still > Phage and Ill try to explain my reason as to why.
In any engagement in a 1v1 with a sheen. You are guarenteed at least 2 procs. and CAN get 3 if you know how to use wukong.
E, auto attack autoattack, Q, auto auto, W, auto auto. = 3.
If you are lazy u will get 2. E, auto, Q, auto, W, auto.
Sheen + Double Dorans Combo= ( you SHOULD have roughly 140 AD by the time u have this combo of items) E+ 90+20, Q+90+20, W +90 (if you time all 3... only +280 if u only use 2 sheen procs)And the +20 for every autoattack from ur +ad = 10 x 20 = +200 damage from auto attacks. We are looking at 200+200 for the lazy wukong and 420+200 for the wukong who manages his sheen procs/cds better. =400 or optimally +510.
If you go phage + wriggles however... you will have E+ 32.8, Q + 45.1, W+0. But Phage does boost ur auto attacks +41 per hit. In an engagemetn u will get roughly 10 autoattacks. This comes out to an additional +410 damage.
410 + 32.9+45.1 = 400/510 vs 488
So ya a lazy wukong will lose by 8 damage to a wriggle phage, but he also saved 705 gold. U can add on a longsword and are 10 gold from a cloth armor. Or u can add a 3rd dorans for +10 more (which would edge out the wriggles/phage combo even on lazy wukong and still be 230 gold left over)
Wriggles + Phage = 2915 Stats= +41 AD +225 HP +30 armor 15% lifesteal And Chance to crit on creeps. 25% chance to slow.
Sheen + Double Dorans = 2210 Gold = 705 Gold left over. *get a 3rd dorans and u get +10 more Ad, +100 more hp and +3% more lifesteal and you still have 230 gold left over* stats +20 Ad +200 hp +250 mana 6% lifesteal And Sheen Procs = +280-420 damage in a 1v1.
Sheen + Triple Dorans = 2685 30 Ad 300 HP 250 Mana -I think this is totally underrated also. As wukong u should be using ur full rotation to do "pokes" at ur enemy. With +250 mana this will give u 2 more full combos, be4 u only have enuf mana for 1 rotation of everything = making ur opponent eeither sustain an extra 500+ damage, or go B. As there are many heros who sustain so well that even after continually poking, you will go oom be4 they need to B = u are completely screwed as Wukong relies on mana for his skills and therefore his damage. 9% lifesteal And Sheen PRocs. +230 gold.
I know a Phage would beat a sheen in an auto-attack race... clearly. But wukong is not an auto-attacking hero. He is a CD hero, who is about dancing in and out and using ur skills correctly.
So i guess its up to you, but personally I know which one I prefer. And I know that played right, it will outperform a phage wriggles combo, and give me 700 more gold to work with.
I know Wriggles gives more lifesteal and more armor= more sustain.
But Double dorans is nearly 600 gold cheaper, and gives you nearly equal stats, and if u want you can go triple dorans, and in my opnion have greater stats than a wriggles, and still save 175 gold.
Now Ill do the straight Wriggles Vs Dorans.
Wriggles 1600 gold +23 Ad +30 Armor 15% lifesteal Chance to crit on creep.
Double Doran 950 gold +20 AD +200 Hp 6% lifesteal. +650 gold
Triple Doran 1425 gold +30 Ad +300 Hp 9% lifesteal +175 gold.
Again, a wriggles SLIGHTLY edges out Double dorans, but only barely, and at the cost of 650 gold.
It Loses to Triple dorans, and is still 175 more gold.
It will give you better sustain, but in my opninion, if you have dominance over your lane opponent that is > sustain as u can simply work him down and foce him off lane.
Wukong has poor sustain, and works better as a bully rather than a competitor for sustainability.
15% of 150 AD = ur only getting 22.5 hp a hit. which is still very low, and u are still going to be dragging health pots with u to lane, so i dont think wriggles sustain is justifiable by its extra cost.
Not to mention 650 gold in the first 10 mins is a HUGE amount of gold. IT will mean simply getting more items ahead of ur opponent who goes Wriggles instead of double dorans. = u will always be more gold efficient.
So I still think Doubleor even Triple dorans are more efficient than a Wriggles.
And I still think a Sheen is more efficient than a Phage, especially when you get it in the order I suggest in my post.
(i did not do the math with a brutalizer included in calculatioins because I am assuming both buils have one = they cancel eachother out.) Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
But again, I dont have any problem admitting when I am wrong, I just would prefer someone showing me rather than saying "I build wriggles because its better, ur dumb for not liking it"
However I do think Wriggles is the shit in the jungle and completely necessary on some heros even outside of the jungle *(like shyvana)*
Not to mention, a Sheen will WAY outdamage i phage in simple "pokes" as i call them. *where u dive in, hit Q after, and W or just run out*. Because when u do these quick exchanges u should NOT get more than 2 auto attacks = +80 damage from ur phage, or +110 from ur sheen. = 30 more damage everytime u poke, and this is if u dont go back to hit again after ur W... which would give the Sheen Wukong an additional +110, and the Phage Wukong an additional +40.
Writing this all twice at 1 AM on 5 hours of sleep, prob = there are some errors. But show them to me.
Show me where I am wrong, and I can admit I was wrong.
Dont just tell me "u just are bad and dont understand."
Also... Another reason I favor dorans over wriggles. Wukongs Passive gives u Mr and Armor. Since you get armor from ur passive, I prefer the Health from dorans over the armor from wriggles. Even the OP points that out in regards to the passive.
Uhh, you have a misconception of how Sheen works. It only applies to your base attack damage, and nothing else (not runes, not masteries, not items)
With those items you'll probably be around level 8-9? So you'll have around 80 base AD. Instead of the 140 dmg per sheen proc in your calculations it'll only be 80. So really optimally you'd only get 620-180=440 dmg, falling below your phage dmg calculations.
Sheen is definitely better in burst trades(getting 1 or 2 procs), but phage is better for sustained damage and also has an invaluable slow
On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote: Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
i don't want to dissect your whole post, i think you are doing a good thing by suggesting a new technique and mathing it out, BUT i think i can help you with the bruta thing
so the way damage reduction works in LoL is the following: damage taken from a physical source = (100/[armor +100])
so if you have 100 armor, you have damage taken = (100/[100+100]) damage taken = (100/200) damage taken = 0.5 damage taken = 50%
you should be able to quickly see that the lower your armor is, the more damage you take
if armor is 25, you have damage taken = (100/[25+100]) damage taken = (100/125) damage taken = 0.8 damage taken = 80%
if armor is 5, you have damage taken = (100/[5+100]) damage taken = (100/105) damage taken = 0.952 damage taken = 95%
therefor we can conclude that taking someone from 350 armor (22.2% damage taken) to 330 armor (23.3% damage taken) is much less impactful than taking someone from 50 armor (66.7% damage taken) to 20 armor (83.3% damage taken). therefor, items with flat armor penetration (i.e brutalizer) are much more effective the LOWER the opponent's starting armor. hope that helps!
On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote: Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
i don't want to dissect your whole post, i think you are doing a good thing by suggesting a new technique and mathing it out, BUT i think i can help you with the bruta thing
so the way damage reduction works in LoL is the following: damage taken from a physical source = (100/[armor +100])
so if you have 100 armor, you have damage taken = (100/[100+100]) damage taken = (100/200) damage taken = 0.5 damage taken = 50%
you should be able to quickly see that the lower your armor is, the more damage you take
if armor is 25, you have damage taken = (100/[25+100]) damage taken = (100/125) damage taken = 0.8 damage taken = 80%
if armor is 5, you have damage taken = (100/[5+100]) damage taken = (100/105) damage taken = 0.952 damage taken = 95%
therefor we can conclude that taking someone from 350 armor (22.2% damage taken) to 330 armor (23.3% damage taken) is much less impactful than taking someone from 50 armor (66.7% damage taken) to 20 armor (83.3% damage taken). therefor, items with flat armor penetration (i.e brutalizer) are much more effective the LOWER the opponent's starting armor. hope that helps!
Ok thanks.
I was assuming that armor was a flat reducer and not a percentage reducer and thats Why i could not figure out why I was wrong in my assumptions. A flawed understanding I brought over from different games' mechanics.
I apologize then, a brutalizer is more effective on lower armor enemies. (tho still to defend my post from yesterday.. u will get a brutalizer in the first 5-10 mins when ur opponent will have a max of 100 armor imo)
And thanks. I am only trying to argue my point that my build order was more gold-efficient than others previously stated and that I was not "building in the wrong order"
I also really enjoyed setting it down in numbers, because i know i prefer the style I do for a reason... but it was purely based off of feeling. And now after doing the numbers I realize why i like it more. I used to play strictly wriggles on top.. but after observing some players who i enjoy watching as well as other players i see in-games.. i started favoring stacking dorans and not getting wriggles and my play got a lot better with these builds letting me bully heros I couldnt before. I USED to prefer wriggles but I just dont think its as good now *ON WUKONG* as i used to. I still think there are heros that u HAVE to go wriggles on tho.
As a Wukong player...I'll tell u guys to avoid solo top vs.
Pantheon Tryndamere
Can't think of anymore at the moment but these 2 are really troublesome for Wukong. Tyrn, I can somewhat pull off if I don't play the trading blow game since his sustain is infinitely better. And if I can get him with the Dash in- hit - decoy combo effectively. But Pantheon's passive and early game strength just knocks Wukong out of the water.
Ya... the only time u beat a pantheon is if he starts off SUPER greedy. Like i went cloth 5 vs a pantheon who started off Long sword 1 pot... and i was able to stomp him by poking and outsustaining him.
Also when i run wukong vs a top hero who does a lot of AD damage i run armor quints instead of AD quints, and occasionally even Armor reds instead of AD reds. They will help a ton, and will make last hitting harder, but its worth staying on lane that much longer.
But other than that... Pantheons passive hardcore stomps "poking" so u have to catch him when he goes to melee a creep with an auto attack, to take off his passive.. then u combo him. Try to throw in as many combo's be4 he gets passive back up... then repeat. Just make sure to never blow an ability on his passive.
I think a better strategy might be...walking up to him in the distance where he can pounce on you...decoy immediately, he pounces on your decoy, uses his heartseeker on your decoy, THEN you E + auto attack + Q + attack while his junk is on cooldown...
On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote: Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
i don't want to dissect your whole post, i think you are doing a good thing by suggesting a new technique and mathing it out, BUT i think i can help you with the bruta thing
so the way damage reduction works in LoL is the following: damage taken from a physical source = (100/[armor +100])
so if you have 100 armor, you have damage taken = (100/[100+100]) damage taken = (100/200) damage taken = 0.5 damage taken = 50%
you should be able to quickly see that the lower your armor is, the more damage you take
if armor is 25, you have damage taken = (100/[25+100]) damage taken = (100/125) damage taken = 0.8 damage taken = 80%
if armor is 5, you have damage taken = (100/[5+100]) damage taken = (100/105) damage taken = 0.952 damage taken = 95%
therefor we can conclude that taking someone from 350 armor (22.2% damage taken) to 330 armor (23.3% damage taken) is much less impactful than taking someone from 50 armor (66.7% damage taken) to 20 armor (83.3% damage taken). therefor, items with flat armor penetration (i.e brutalizer) are much more effective the LOWER the opponent's starting armor. hope that helps!
I also really enjoyed setting it down in numbers, because i know i prefer the style I do for a reason... but it was purely based off of feeling. And now after doing the numbers I realize why i like it more. I used to play strictly wriggles on top.. but after observing some players who i enjoy watching as well as other players i see in-games.. i started favoring stacking dorans and not getting wriggles and my play got a lot better with these builds letting me bully heros I couldnt before. I USED to prefer wriggles but I just dont think its as good now *ON WUKONG* as i used to. I still think there are heros that u HAVE to go wriggles on tho.
This has to do with gold efficiency. DBlades are insanely efficient. Imagine spending your first 1.3k gold on boots, long sword, cloth, and an assortment of pots/wards. You would get much better mileage for your money spending it on boots, 2x dblades, and pots/wards. However, once Wriggle's is completed it's along the same line of gold efficiency as dblades.
On March 20 2012 11:05 iaeuy wrote: Armor is more efficient when you have low armor, so (flat) armor pen is also more efficient on low armor opponents. Example: 15 armor target -> 13% damage reduction after 15 apen -> 0% damage reduction 100 armor target -> 50% damage reduction after 15 apen -> 46% damage reduction 13% increase in damage is more than 4% :o
Armor is not more efficient when you have low armor, though it is a common misconception. Your reasonning with % damage reduction is misleading because not every percent is worth the same. Let's say you go from 0% damage reduction (no armor) to 5% damage reduction (some armor), basically you go from taking full damage to taking almost full damage, not a big improvement. Now say you go from 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction, congratulations you've successfully reduce the damage you take by 2. So this one percent is a lot bigger than the 5% of the previous example.
On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote: (i did not do the math with a brutalizer included in calculatioins because I am assuming both buils have one = they cancel eachother out.) Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
I hope it won't be my turn to make maths mistakes The brutalizer is indeed not fully useful if your target is already way under 25 armor when you buy it. Regarding why bruta is more effective against low armor, we can take an example. Target 1 has 25 armor when you buy your bruta, now it has 0 armor when you hit it. Its effective health points went from 125% of its health to 100% of its health, ie 80 % of what it used to be. In short, you now need to do 80% of the damage you had to do before to drop him from 100 to 0, or you kill him 25% faster than you used to. Target 2 has 125 armor when you buy bruta, now it has 100 armor when you hit it. EHP when from 225% of its health to 200%, ie around 89% of what it used to be. You kill him 12,5% faster than you used to.
By the way R04R is correct, sheen only applies base damage and ignores all forms of bonus damage. You also forgot or didn't know that sheen procs have a 2 seconds cooldown. There is no way you can get 3 procs from a "E, auto attack autoattack, Q, auto auto, W, auto auto" combo.
On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote: IMO Sheen is still > Phage and Ill try to explain my reason as to why.
Maths
I'm not certain why you're mathing out these particular combination of items, rather than comparing them individually. Sheen + 2 DBlades is really 2 components, Sheen, and the incredibly gold efficient Dblade. The initial assertion, to the best of my knowledge, was that Sheen is a better item to start with when building trinity force than Phage. Wriggles and Dblades should be taken out of that equation, since there's nothing stopping you from picking up 2 Dblades with Phage. So basically, the proc vs the 18 AD. Also consider that if phage does proc, it's most likely going to convert into at least another autoattack.
@Maestro Sorry, but I don't really have the time to break all your stuff down for you right now. Not trying to be an ass, I appreciate you putting effort into mathing your stuff out and backing your opinion, but you still seem green in terms of understanding the game mechanics. As others have said, dblades vs. wriggle's is one argument and sheen vs. phage is another, you can't lump them together and hope to prove anything. I'll try to go through why I favor wriggle's after work tonight, but no promises since I've been having to work late this week.
For Sheen vs. Phage though, there are a number of issues that you're ignoring that I'll just point out without doing the nitty gritty math. 1. Ult: Sheen does nothing for your ult, Phage adds to the AD scaling. 2. HP: Even if Sheen outperforms Phage from a damage standpoint, you need to account for the fact that Sheen does nothing else for you, while Phage adds a big 225 buffer to your HP pool. 3. Utility: Sheen adds nothing other than damage, Phage can assist in a chase with your team and allow others to catch up via its slow. 4. Issues with the Damage Calculation: As someone else said, Phage's slow can easily convert into another auto attack that you wouldn't have gotten with sheen. Additionally, spacing your combo out for sheen procs can end up hurting your overall damage output because you're waiting on your Q, rather than using it early in the combo to utilize the armor reduction.
I also find it a little odd that you repeatedly say that Wukong isn't an auto attacker and then list his burst combo as having 6 auto attacks in it.
On March 20 2012 17:42 GhostOwl wrote: As a Wukong player...I'll tell u guys to avoid solo top vs.
Pantheon Tryndamere
Can't think of anymore at the moment but these 2 are really troublesome for Wukong. Tyrn, I can somewhat pull off if I don't play the trading blow game since his sustain is infinitely better. And if I can get him with the Dash in- hit - decoy combo effectively. But Pantheon's passive and early game strength just knocks Wukong out of the water.
Tryndamere's not that hard IMO. Played it in AHGL vs. the only other player above 1900 elo and all I had to do was Wriggle's + Ninja Tabi -> Chain Vest -> HoG + Phage. Once I hit chain vest, the lane was over, he could not longer do jack to me. Basically, the lane isn't bad because Wukong's base damages are high enough that he can basically straight stack Armor for 10-15 minutes and still be useful, while Trynd needs to build damage to do jack later in the game.
Pantheon's rough though, not really winable unless you manage to hit 6 without a big deficit, which can pretty much only happen if he's bad or you get jungler help.
Regarding Quints: as I said in the OP, I tend to favor resists and/or regen on my quints to cover my ass in early laning.
On March 20 2012 11:05 iaeuy wrote: Sheen builds mana and ap, neither of which will help win exchanges. So you're more or less paying 1260g for just the passive. Or for 55g more you could buy phage, which has both good stats and a useful passive. 3 Just the +18 ad alone will give +120 damage to your full rotation. Factor in the hp + slow and sheen passive by itself really starts too look like its not worth 1.2k gold.
Armor is more efficient when you have low armor, so (flat) armor pen is also more efficient on low armor opponents. Example: 15 armor target -> 13% damage reduction after 15 apen -> 0% damage reduction 100 armor target -> 50% damage reduction after 15 apen -> 46% damage reduction 13% increase in damage is more than 4% :o
[2]Wriggles is good if you want armor because its efficient and provides stats you want in addition to armor. Not much reason not to buy it if you want a mid tier item that gives armor alongside other stats. Also I don't think Mogwai was saying to buy it "just for the armor." I mean like if you ever find yourself wanting "just armor" on wukong then yeah go ahead and build 6 chain vests or w/e.
1. 54/50=1.08. 8% increase in damage and 1.13/1=13% increase in damage There is no 4%
2. Wriggles has its problems, it reduces sustain compared to just vamp scepter since it clears waves too fast and the proc doesn't lifesteal. It also makes it harder to donate blue and messes with my csing a lot more than it helps it. It's not a bad item because it has two amazing uniques but it's not mandatory unless you're jungling someone with low sustain imo.
3. You're assuming wukong gets off a full ult in his rotation.
On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote: sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor.
i think you are completely 100% wrong.
How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks?
Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out.
How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen?
Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold.
I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote.
i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong.
Mogwai is a high elo player who contributes a lot of information to this subforum. 4 He is allowed to give shorter answers without as much explanation because he is well known and we all trust that he has a thought out position. A lot of times people just want information from a better player, he wasn't trying to be mean, just helping out.
It is ok to disagree but there is no need to get huffy about it.
4 We should all go to war when a politician says to with no reason because they are well known and we can trust that they have thought through all possible options.
I don't think you can say whether phage or sheen is better as a starting item for triforce. Sheen gives mana and MR, phage gives health and a slow. Overall in general cases where someone plays wukong with 3 procs of sheen he'll do more damage but it's hard to do that and it's uncertain whether a slow would have helped more with keeping someone in wukong's ult. I would like to argue that saying zeal was better than sheen was wrong though.
On March 20 2012 18:45 NpG)Explosive wrote: By the way R04R is correct, sheen only applies base damage and ignores all forms of bonus damage. You also forgot or didn't know that sheen procs have a 2 seconds cooldown. There is no way you can get 3 procs from a "E, auto attack autoattack, Q, auto auto, W, auto auto" combo.
It's not even a 2 second cooldown. Iirc some people in the general thread were posting about how triforce and sheen procs weren't consistent, that they worked on a timer rather than a cooldown. This means if you get lucky you can get two sheen procs in a row while spamming abilities and if you're not lucky you might get only one while trying to space your abilities out.
On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote: sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor.
i think you are completely 100% wrong.
How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks?
Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out.
How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen?
Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold.
I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote.
i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong.
Mogwai is a high elo player who contributes a lot of information to this subforum. 4 He is allowed to give shorter answers without as much explanation because he is well known and we all trust that he has a thought out position. A lot of times people just want information from a better player, he wasn't trying to be mean, just helping out.
It is ok to disagree but there is no need to get huffy about it.
4 We should all go to war when a politician says to with no reason because they are well known and we can trust that they have thought through all possible options.
I don't think you can say whether phage or sheen is better as a starting item for triforce. Sheen gives mana and MR, phage gives health and a slow. Overall in general cases where someone plays wukong with 3 procs of sheen he'll do more damage but it's hard to do that and it's uncertain whether a slow would have helped more with keeping someone in wukong's ult. I would like to argue that saying zeal was better than sheen was wrong though.
you're sensationalizing it just as much as he was, knock it off. the reason I gave short answers was because I didn't have a lot of time and a lot of the things I wanted to say were straight mechanical discussions that have been had hundreds of times on these forums. I'm tired of explaining Flat Armor Pen, I'm tired of explaining why sunfire is bad and I'm tired of explaining Wriggle's vs. Dblades.
As for Zeal vs. Sheen, it's a synergy thing. When you have phage and are trying to keep up with people and bash them enough to get a phage proc off to let teammates catch up, zeal is a no brainer vs. sheen, though obviously if you're just doing EaQa and then peacing out in 1v1 scenarios, you should be grabbing sheen. w/e, zeal vs. sheen is situational, but phage vs. sheen is pretty heavily in phage's favor IMO, but all this is sorta moot since I'm rarely building triforce any earlier than 4th item anyway.
On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote: sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor.
i think you are completely 100% wrong.
How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks?
Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out.
How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen?
Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold.
I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote.
i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong.
Mogwai is a high elo player who contributes a lot of information to this subforum. 4 He is allowed to give shorter answers without as much explanation because he is well known and we all trust that he has a thought out position. A lot of times people just want information from a better player, he wasn't trying to be mean, just helping out.
It is ok to disagree but there is no need to get huffy about it.
4 We should all go to war when a politician says to with no reason because they are well known and we can trust that they have thought through all possible options.
I don't think you can say whether phage or sheen is better as a starting item for triforce. Sheen gives mana and MR, phage gives health and a slow. Overall in general cases where someone plays wukong with 3 procs of sheen he'll do more damage but it's hard to do that and it's uncertain whether a slow would have helped more with keeping someone in wukong's ult. I would like to argue that saying zeal was better than sheen was wrong though.
you're sensationalizing it just as much as he was, knock it off. the reason I gave short answers was because I didn't have a lot of time and a lot of the things I wanted to say were straight mechanical discussions that have been had hundreds of times on these forums. I'm tired of explaining Flat Armor Pen, I'm tired of explaining why sunfire is bad and I'm tired of explaining Wriggle's vs. Dblades.
As for Zeal vs. Sheen, it's a synergy thing. When you have phage and are trying to keep up with people and bash them enough to get a phage proc off to let teammates catch up, zeal is a no brainer vs. sheen, though obviously if you're just doing EaQa and then peacing out in 1v1 scenarios, you should be grabbing sheen. w/e, zeal vs. sheen is situational, but phage vs. sheen is pretty heavily in phage's favor IMO, but all this is sorta moot since I'm rarely building triforce any earlier than 4th item anyway.
Yeah I guess I wouldn't like someone using sarcastic comparisons on my arguments.
I did the math with the double dorans included because in my post that was the build i was saying was optimal. and then i was told why getting a phage would be more optimal, but imo getting sheen is because of its synergy with the items you got earlier.
Ya phage gives you hp, but if you follow what i said i said you get the 2x dorans first so u are already getting the +200 hp from phage.
And I still think that the +mana from sheen is a big bonus. And Ok Ill give u that when u have a phage, you might get 1/2 extra attacks, but sheen will still give u better bursts and pokes.
Also I dont understand how you make the point of me saying Wukong isnt an auto attacker and then complain that i used auto attacks in my calculations.... obviously if ur in melee range you should autoattack if ur getting free hits... I am obviously not arguing that u should ignore auto attacking forever... I am just saying that majority of his damage comes from his skills and not auto attacking (like example trynd's damage is 90% auto attacking)
Not to mention even you agreed that a Sheen is a better poke item, which is imo why its better on wukong, whose combo is the perfect "whittle em down" poke combo.
SO IDK I made my case why i prefer dorans to wriggles. And why i prefer sheen to phage. Not anything more I can do some people are simply going to ignore the entire post and stick to "wriggles is awsome cause X told me it is".
Also Sheen procs on ur ult as well. which IS a benefit.
Also in the 2nd half there is a straight comparison between wriggles and dorans. People just didnt read down that far before telling me I am wrong again -.-
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote: I did the math with the double dorans included because in my post that was the build i was saying was optimal. and then i was told why getting a phage would be more optimal, but imo getting sheen is because of its synergy with the items you got earlier.
Ya phage gives you hp, but if you follow what i said i said you get the 2x dorans first so u are already getting the +200 hp from phage.
I don't care if you include double dblade in the build, I just care that if you want to compare sheen vs. phage, you include the same other items for the sake of the comparison. Again, dblades vs. wriggle's is one argument, phage vs. sheen is another. When comparing a variable (in this case, sheen vs. phage), keep everything outside of them constant, it's a pretty fundamental piece of how to scientifically approach things.
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote: And I still think that the +mana from sheen is a big bonus. And Ok Ill give u that when u have a phage, you might get 1/2 extra attacks, but sheen will still give u better bursts and pokes.
those 1/2 extra attacks make up the difference in your damage calculations though...
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote: Also I dont understand how you make the point of me saying Wukong isnt an auto attacker and then complain that i used auto attacks in my calculations.... obviously if ur in melee range you should autoattack if ur getting free hits... I am obviously not arguing that u should ignore auto attacking forever... I am just saying that majority of his damage comes from his skills and not auto attacking (like example trynd's damage is 90% auto attacking)
I'm not complaining, merely saying I find it amusing. your whole other argument about dblades vs. wriggle's is based around wu not being an auto-attacker who benefits that much from the extra lifesteal and armor, yet you're outlining burst damages as 5-6 second engagements with a ton of auto attacks.
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote: Not to mention even you agreed that a Sheen is a better poke item, which is imo why its better on wukong, whose combo is the perfect "whittle em down" poke combo.
Than Phage? Where did I say that? I said Sheen is better at poking than Zeal, but Phage is comparable to Sheen in terms of poke, and is better in terms of chasing and sustained engagements.
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote: SO IDK I made my case why i prefer dorans to wriggles. And why i prefer sheen to phage. Not anything more I can do some people are simply going to ignore the entire post and stick to "wriggles is awsome cause X told me it is".
Oh great, martyring yourself. now I'm REALLY motivated to pay attention to you.
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote: Also Sheen procs on ur ult as well. which IS a benefit.
If by "procs on your ult," you mean that the next attack after your ult will have the sheen proc applied to it, then sure, but it doesn't increase your ult's damage in any way, shape, or form, whereas Phage adds 21.6 damage/second to your ult.
Another factor in getting Sheen first is it means you have to go Triforce or sell it. I know this forum isn't big on Mallet but Phage first leaves that build path open to you as well.
Phage has more versatility/utility overall I think, Sheen is committing to damage.
Usually on Wu I'll go Wriggles Phage Giants Belt then adjust if I can afford to get Warmogs or if I'll just move on to Chain Vest/Atmas and settle for Mallet later.
As far as Wriggles vs D.Blades I like having the proc to go mess with the enemies jungle since Wu can be pretty slipperly, and stolen red or blue on Wukong is very scary.
Is wukong's autoattack that follows e automatic? I'm on a 10fps laptop (home, spring break, didn't want to bring my computer home), and it's hard to tell. Like if I follow up with q too quickly, will I skip the autoattack when I'm trying to e>aa>q?
On March 21 2012 08:02 billy5000 wrote: Is wukong's autoattack that follows e automatic? I'm on a 10fps laptop (home, spring break, didn't want to bring my computer home), and it's hard to tell. Like if I follow up with q too quickly, will I skip the autoattack when I'm trying to e>aa>q?
Yeah you will. After hitting E, Wu will attempt to AA automatically. Because of his clumbsy animation though, if you hit Q too early, you miss out on a free AA. Based on how those spells interact with each other, you'd like to have Q'd your enemy before E'ing him anyway, so try to do that whenever possible. I'm aware that's not always an option, but if it is, you should opt for it.
On March 21 2012 08:02 billy5000 wrote: Is wukong's autoattack that follows e automatic? I'm on a 10fps laptop (home, spring break, didn't want to bring my computer home), and it's hard to tell. Like if I follow up with q too quickly, will I skip the autoattack when I'm trying to e>aa>q?
Yeah you will. After hitting E, Wu will attempt to AA automatically. Because of his clumbsy animation though, if you hit Q too early, you miss out on a free AA. Based on how those spells interact with each other, you'd like to have Q'd your enemy before E'ing him anyway, so try to do that whenever possible. I'm aware that's not always an option, but if it is, you should opt for it.
I'm having a problem of missing my q timing on a moving target after the autoattack. Is it supposed to be normal for the opponent to get out of range of your q? eh, I'm probably missing my timing, but I just wanted to make sure
Wuking's Q animation is worse than Garen's. If you don't stutter step close enough to Q or you stutter step too soon after pressing Q you lose the game
Okay, I'm finally going to say it: How the hell do you play against fiora without ganks? Seems like even if I try to trade under ALL OF MY MINIONS @ lvl 1, while at the same time I'm miles away from drawing aggro from his minions, I end up losing. Then a few levels after, it feels like I'm up against a freaking pantheon with him parrying my q. From my experience, it's useless to even fake my q to use it after an extra autoattack because of her atk spd steroid. We both started cloth 5 pots, and I used armor quints+reds.
On March 21 2012 08:02 billy5000 wrote: Is wukong's autoattack that follows e automatic? I'm on a 10fps laptop (home, spring break, didn't want to bring my computer home), and it's hard to tell. Like if I follow up with q too quickly, will I skip the autoattack when I'm trying to e>aa>q?
Yeah you will. After hitting E, Wu will attempt to AA automatically. Because of his clumbsy animation though, if you hit Q too early, you miss out on a free AA. Based on how those spells interact with each other, you'd like to have Q'd your enemy before E'ing him anyway, so try to do that whenever possible. I'm aware that's not always an option, but if it is, you should opt for it.
I'm having a problem of missing my q timing on a moving target after the autoattack. Is it supposed to be normal for the opponent to get out of range of your q? eh, I'm probably missing my timing, but I just wanted to make sure
Used to be like that for me, too. I have the habit of AA-move-AA because I play a lot of Irelia (and as of lately, Riven) so moving inbetween attacks just comes naturally and their attack animations work really well for me. Wu has a horrible animation though, at least that's my personal take on it. I don't like it at all.
To get back to your question, yeah it is normal. What I did was go into a bot game and just practice AA - move just the slightest bit - Q. This way, I learned to get my Qs on moving targets more often than not.
Concerning Fiora, well, she's a grand duelist. There's a very limited number of champs who can straight up fight her in lane, and Wu isn't one of them. You don't need to, though - just farm up passively and safely, wait for teamfights to erupt, and be happy bout how much better your ultimate is for those.
fiora gets 15 free AD, blocking one of your autos and rebounding an attack's worth of damage back, and has a more useful passive @ level 1. You just gotta suck it up and accept that fighting her level 1 is a terrible idea unless you're Pantheon.
On February 15 2012 07:52 Mogwai wrote: Riven destroys Wukong, so does Pantheon.
Basically you need to be able to beat Wukong in damage trades, so it's a pretty limited number of champs. He hits hard enough to knock most sustainers out of lane, though I'd bet WW is a problem since he can just rush Frozen and Q you every time you come in with E. I've heard Irelia is problematic, but I'm having a hard time seeing it (have never played it). Wu's actually strong enough on burst trades to beat Swain and Rumble in my experience, so that's pretty impressive, I wonder if he could handle Ryze, Kennen, and Yorrick (the other Melee countering assholes).
Wukong new favorite champ, but I got completely smoked by a Yorrick once in lane. Luckily, lategame I was still ok and we won.
Ever used W in teamfights to get to the squishies? I had some success with E onto whoever I can get to, then immediately W and run up to the enemy AP/AD, then Q + Ult. They seem to be caught off guard fairly often by this.
I feel like I can beat Yorick with wu by going 9/21/0.
And yea, W can do all sorts of shit, but be careful with it when they have an oracles because if you get caught trying to be cute with an initiation like that you can get blown up before you do anything.
There's so many options with 's' mindgames that I feel like i've barely explored it. I got caught in river very low hp by a Shaco yesterday, turned towards the jungle entrance, and s'd. He overran me into the bush chasing my "stealth", and i was able to W away towards bot lane and escape that way. Shaco was like "wow, wtf man, nice"
So Lulu top. What the hell are you supposed to do against her.? She out trades you at every level it seems, zones you completely if you try to just farm, and her little fairie reveals you so you can't disengage. I eventually had to resort to E'ing in for cs and immediately W'ing out without any auto's or I would get revealed and take huge damage. Even with my ult I couldn't go on her because she would just ult me away and then chase me down and kill me. I mean I got first blood on their jungler 1 minute into the game and I still couldn't do anything. Is this just a terrible match up, or is there some trick to it I'm not seeing.
It's something I'll try to avoid in the future, but it was hard to know it was coming till the last pick.
I picked Monkey up a few days ago and have been experimenting with builds for him.
So far, I'm thinking boots+pot to start, then build into double DBs on first back, then second boots along with Brutalizer. From there, I was thinking just go right for FM, so probably a Giant's Belt after Brut., since you need the HPs.
On April 12 2012 17:33 Mr.Zip wrote: Can anyone give me some tips on how to lane as Wu vs. Shen? Specifically early- can I trade with him at all? It always feels like I lose out.
What items should I favor?
I haven't faced the new Shen at top, but from my understanding, it's gonna be difficult because of his shield to trade evenly. More likely than not, he'll come out at top if he has good reaction time because he can shield himself from your attacks, and even his taunt does damage now.
I would play it like this: Decoy out immediately when you get a sense that he'll engage you. He'll taunt your clone (his shield will stil be up) so you should wait a couple of seconds until his shield is gone, then E -> AA -> Q -> AA
Get sustain items. Especially Philio stone. Because you'll need that health regen + mana regen to decoy out frequently.
Faced a decent Riven (she blew her stun trying to farm minions sometimes, which confused me greatly since it was perfect to trade with her) but even though we were pretty even in farm and I had a gank on her, she still seemed to outrade me pretty much every time.
More importantly, is that stun on like a 2 second CD? Shits retarded. >.>
On April 26 2012 15:02 Cloud9157 wrote: So how exactly do you lane vs Riven?
Faced a decent Riven (she blew her stun trying to farm minions sometimes, which confused me greatly since it was perfect to trade with her) but even though we were pretty even in farm and I had a gank on her, she still seemed to outrade me pretty much every time.
More importantly, is that stun on like a 2 second CD? Shits retarded. >.>
She's pretty impossible for Wu in my experience tbh. Riven's almost impossible for any strictly Melee champ to trade with. I just go Tabi + Wriggle's -> HoG -> Chain Vest vs. Riven and just try to survive and farm the lane.
On April 12 2012 17:33 Mr.Zip wrote: Can anyone give me some tips on how to lane as Wu vs. Shen? Specifically early- can I trade with him at all? It always feels like I lose out.
What items should I favor?
I haven't faced the new Shen at top, but from my understanding, it's gonna be difficult because of his shield to trade evenly. More likely than not, he'll come out at top if he has good reaction time because he can shield himself from your attacks, and even his taunt does damage now.
I would play it like this: Decoy out immediately when you get a sense that he'll engage you. He'll taunt your clone (his shield will stil be up) so you should wait a couple of seconds until his shield is gone, then E -> AA -> Q -> AA
Get sustain items. Especially Philio stone. Because you'll need that health regen + mana regen to decoy out frequently.
I wouldn't trade with him early at all unless it is unavoidable- he'll just get all his health back from vorpal blade if you can't outright kill him. Best to play passive early on and stack magic resistance. Like cloth/5 into double null magic mantles, merc treads, wriggles, Wit's End then (maybe consider getting a negatron even, if you're still having problems). Also running scaling magic resist runes helps a lot. At about level 10 or so you can start winning trades decisively enough that he won't necessarily be able to get all his health back from vorpal blade while farming. Going 21 in defensive masteries also makes the early laning phase easier.
It's just not an especially favorable matchup for the monkey when it is early.
Wukong is a hexdrinker champ, not a wit's end champ.
vs. Shen I just boots -> double dblade -> mercs + hex -> bloodthirster usually. if you can make it a freefarm lane, Wu makes Shen look like a joke in teamfights later on.
so against triple AD comps (AD top, AD jungler, AD carry, maybe something like panth/lee/graves respectively, not an impossible comp to see):
WK top mixed with taric bot. both taric and WK get aegis. WK might grab tabi too. WK passive plus shatter passive plus double aegis is retarded amounts of armor and MR (up to 40 arm/mr on WK passive, up to 30 armor on shatter, 18 + 12 + 12 = 42 armor on double aegis, 24 + 15 + 15 = 54 MR on double aegis, totals 112 armor, 94 MR WTFJESUSCHRIST), he benefits to the max from the +18 AD from double aegis with his 4.8 AD ratio on ult and 1.1 ratio on Q.
it is just an insane combo. throw in some jarvan or soraka for more passive armor/MR but it's unnecessary after that point. WK can literally be a main tank with only aegis. the rest can be all damage. i went 0-5 in lane to lee sin today and decided to get aegis at the same time my taric did. didn't die for the rest of the game and teamfights were just a ridiculous stomp despite how underfarmed i was.
On May 21 2012 13:11 gtrsrs wrote: so against triple AD comps (AD top, AD jungler, AD carry, maybe something like panth/lee/graves respectively, not an impossible comp to see):
WK top mixed with taric bot. both taric and WK get aegis. WK might grab tabi too. WK passive plus shatter passive plus double aegis is retarded amounts of armor and MR (up to 40 arm/mr on WK passive, up to 30 armor on shatter, 18 + 12 + 12 = 42 armor on double aegis, 24 + 15 + 15 = 54 MR on double aegis, totals 112 armor, 94 MR WTFJESUSCHRIST), he benefits to the max from the +18 AD from double aegis with his 4.8 AD ratio on ult and 1.1 ratio on Q.
it is just an insane combo. throw in some jarvan or soraka for more passive armor/MR but it's unnecessary after that point. WK can literally be a main tank with only aegis. the rest can be all damage. i went 0-5 in lane to lee sin today and decided to get aegis at the same time my taric did. didn't die for the rest of the game and teamfights were just a ridiculous stomp despite how underfarmed i was.
I guess? that's a crazy roundabout way to get a ton of armor though. against a team like that, I just go tabi -> hog -> phage -> rush my randuins -> BT or something. fast omen destroys teams like that because you can just sit on their melees with your ult and zone the rest of their team cause of his sillytarded deeps.
On May 21 2012 13:11 gtrsrs wrote: so against triple AD comps (AD top, AD jungler, AD carry, maybe something like panth/lee/graves respectively, not an impossible comp to see):
WK top mixed with taric bot. both taric and WK get aegis. WK might grab tabi too. WK passive plus shatter passive plus double aegis is retarded amounts of armor and MR (up to 40 arm/mr on WK passive, up to 30 armor on shatter, 18 + 12 + 12 = 42 armor on double aegis, 24 + 15 + 15 = 54 MR on double aegis, totals 112 armor, 94 MR WTFJESUSCHRIST), he benefits to the max from the +18 AD from double aegis with his 4.8 AD ratio on ult and 1.1 ratio on Q.
it is just an insane combo. throw in some jarvan or soraka for more passive armor/MR but it's unnecessary after that point. WK can literally be a main tank with only aegis. the rest can be all damage. i went 0-5 in lane to lee sin today and decided to get aegis at the same time my taric did. didn't die for the rest of the game and teamfights were just a ridiculous stomp despite how underfarmed i was.
I guess? that's a crazy roundabout way to get a ton of armor though. against a team like that, I just go tabi -> hog -> phage -> rush my randuins -> BT or something. fast omen destroys teams like that because you can just sit on their melees with your ult and zone the rest of their team cause of his sillytarded deeps.
... hog + randuin's is like 1100 more than just aegis. my point is you can go literally JUST aegis and endgame still have the stats that a pure tank would have, but also do infinite damage because you spent that 1100 on real damage and the rest of your gold on IE and BT and shit too
On May 21 2012 13:11 gtrsrs wrote: so against triple AD comps (AD top, AD jungler, AD carry, maybe something like panth/lee/graves respectively, not an impossible comp to see):
WK top mixed with taric bot. both taric and WK get aegis. WK might grab tabi too. WK passive plus shatter passive plus double aegis is retarded amounts of armor and MR (up to 40 arm/mr on WK passive, up to 30 armor on shatter, 18 + 12 + 12 = 42 armor on double aegis, 24 + 15 + 15 = 54 MR on double aegis, totals 112 armor, 94 MR WTFJESUSCHRIST), he benefits to the max from the +18 AD from double aegis with his 4.8 AD ratio on ult and 1.1 ratio on Q.
it is just an insane combo. throw in some jarvan or soraka for more passive armor/MR but it's unnecessary after that point. WK can literally be a main tank with only aegis. the rest can be all damage. i went 0-5 in lane to lee sin today and decided to get aegis at the same time my taric did. didn't die for the rest of the game and teamfights were just a ridiculous stomp despite how underfarmed i was.
I guess? that's a crazy roundabout way to get a ton of armor though. against a team like that, I just go tabi -> hog -> phage -> rush my randuins -> BT or something. fast omen destroys teams like that because you can just sit on their melees with your ult and zone the rest of their team cause of his sillytarded deeps.
... hog + randuin's is like 1100 more than just aegis. my point is you can go literally JUST aegis and endgame still have the stats that a pure tank would have, but also do infinite damage because you spent that 1100 on real damage and the rest of your gold on IE and BT and shit too
Randuin's is 1150 more than aegis, probably around 800 gold realistically based off the money you make from your HoG (this is assuming ~12 minutes of HoG), but whatever, this is neither here nor there. My point is that against a triple AD team comp, it's a better build. Assume that your build doesn't impact your taric, and he still has aegis. Now instead of 30 Armor, 39 MRes, 8 AD and 275 HP, you have 75 Armor, 350 HP, 5% CDR, 25 HP/5, Passive Slow, and Active Slow, which, against a triple AD team, is quite a bit stronger with total 157 Armor, 55 MR, more HP and better utility vs. their 3 ADs. Like, really, your aegis, the 2nd aegis only matters for your own stats, and you're essentially arguing that saving 800 gold for much worse stats vs. this 3 AD team is a good idea because of Taric's aura or something. I dunno, I just don't get what you're getting at here, all the other factors are maginal next to the choice of Omen vs. Aegis, which is pretty easy to make when they have 3 ADs and you already have an Aegis on your team IMO.
Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it.
lol I was thinking just get a monk and barb with keen eye, mantra of evasion hard target and warcry with +40% armour.
Randuins way better than aegis which gives mr and doesn't slow attack speed against auto dependent physical champs. You don't need a huge comp either just buy a couple chain mails early across the team, maybe some tabi.
On May 24 2012 15:39 GhostOwl wrote: Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it.
Yea, sorry, you're wrong. I've done both and E is just better than maxing Q. 5 mana up/level is not restrictive on the mana cost and E just does strictly more damage to level up than Q unless you're staying in Melee range after the E attack speed buff wears off, which is usually not the case, as your playstyle is typically quick engage -> disengage and wait for E CD again.
On May 24 2012 15:39 GhostOwl wrote: Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it.
If you lower a cooldown, you're effectively raising mana costs too (unless you don't plan on actually using that skill once cooldown is up).
alright after several more games i'm finally starting to really call wukong my own boots/cloth + pots open 2 dorans if even or behind, HoG + 1 dorans if even or ahead boots 2 as necessary phage, aegis -> giant's belt or pickaxe or BF sword depending on if you're dying, getting kills, or getting LOTS of kills finish mallet for defensive build, last whisper against tanks, bf sword against mages or squishies. randuin's absolutely last final build looks like mercs/tabi, randuins, aegis, mallet, thirster, last whisper. occasionally maw instead of thirster
i really really really think aegis is core, especially if your team has another aegis holder. last game i started 0-3-2, ended 10-3-10 and i really do feel that's typical, not an exception. you just become so so so sosososo hard to kill with resists being stacked and the HP from aegis/mallet. even the tiny bits of AD add up so well. 10 from d-blades, 20 from mallet, 8 from aegis, 8 from partner's aegis, 40 from LW. even if you never get to finish your thirster, you do madddd deeps with your broken AD ratios on your skills. level 16 signals the end of the game for your opponent, his ult is absolutely disgusting at that point. the base damage is insane, the scaling is insane, the cooldown is insane. you can easily hit 1500+ damage on a tank if you're peeling for your AD, or obliterate an entire back line even while exhausted if you're the diver. i really think wukong can be taken to competitive games
people keep telling me to stop first-picking him because he's such an easily counterable champ, but the only champs i've struggled with are your typical top-lane stompers. riven is OP against wukong because her stun animations are shorter than his auto attack animations so he never wins trades. renekton is OP against wukong because he has no mana costs and his abilities get stronger the more he uses them (rofl gr8 design ri0t). lee sin is entirely dependent on lee sin - if lee maxes W he'll win the lane but you scale harder, if he maxes anything else you can trade with him if you're ballsy, if either one gets a gank from his jungler he can destroy the other, i ban lee just in case. haven't played shen but i see it being a problem, i ban shen. cho'gath destroys wu.
easy matchups that most tops struggle with include rumble (though jungler dictates this one), vlad (wukong steamrolls), kennen (wukong can definitely win this, it's tough though, but easier than how other melees have it), darius. udyr seems pretty even, but i've won most of these.
also lol at 10% armor pen offensive, 40% last whisper, 30% from his Q = 62.2% arpen? get crushed
edit: re-read the topic, i realize i just said a lot of stuff you said. i guess i might just finally be at the understanding of wu that you're at, not discovering anything new except my aegis core, OP
also, i run AD/arpen quints/reds and 9/21/0, any time i go more offensive masteries i get my ass handed to me. i'm a very passive laner that focuses on farming and not dying until i know for a fact that i will win fights. i think that is a difference in our playstyle
How does Wukong do against Warwick? I beat one, but I already knew the opposite top to be inferior to me (was a Bo3) and I should have been an easy gank every time their jungler (Jax) had red buff, seeing how trading makes me push because of E and the fact that I aa and WW won't if he just Q and runs. I started cloth+5, with AS marks because my only page with MR quints has those marks, and I ran oom when WW was oom too with one pot left (started cloth+5 too) and had more than half his HP left. He couldn't fight me but I couldn't kill him (did when we dove with my jungler once) and I ended up just pushing, warding and then roaming to drake with the team.
I think I would have done better with ArPen marks (and AD or MS quints, because of my pages) and a boots+3 start to be able to get more autos in when WW runs after my EautoQ, but that was against that WW. Had he been better, or had their jungler used the fact that I was pushing to bash WW's head in, I think I should have probably lost that lane (getting killed, or zoned after a few trades when WW freezes the lane unless we dive with my jungler).
I didn't get bruta as I wanted more MR, so I went 2 dblades -> hexdrinker (the shield helped against Jax burst too).
On June 09 2012 22:31 Alaric wrote: How does Wukong do against Warwick? I beat one, but I already knew the opposite top to be inferior to me (was a Bo3) and I should have been an easy gank every time their jungler (Jax) had red buff, seeing how trading makes me push because of E and the fact that I aa and WW won't if he just Q and runs. I started cloth+5, with AS marks because my only page with MR quints has those marks, and I ran oom when WW was oom too with one pot left (started cloth+5 too) and had more than half his HP left. He couldn't fight me but I couldn't kill him (did when we dove with my jungler once) and I ended up just pushing, warding and then roaming to drake with the team.
I think I would have done better with ArPen marks (and AD or MS quints, because of my pages) and a boots+3 start to be able to get more autos in when WW runs after my EautoQ, but that was against that WW. Had he been better, or had their jungler used the fact that I was pushing to bash WW's head in, I think I should have probably lost that lane (getting killed, or zoned after a few trades when WW freezes the lane unless we dive with my jungler).
I didn't get bruta as I wanted more MR, so I went 2 dblades -> hexdrinker (the shield helped against Jax burst too).
I don't think I've ever been able to beat a WW or seen a WW lose to Wukong, but I don't play him much anymore, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
If I play the matchup as WW, I just start with a +32 armor runepage and Cloth 5, then proceed to either rush Wriggle's or Glacial. At level 6, it's sort of sketchy if you manage to run WW out of mana beforehand and maybe hit 6 before him, but other than that, I don't see a Wukong ever posing a real threat to WW (and even that scenario is highly unlikely imo). I just don't see Wukong being able to outtrade Warwick because he basically wants to engage/disengage instead of partaking in prolonged fights, and whenever Wukong does that, WW just Qs him, autoattacks some creeps and you're back to square one, while you probably used 3 spells opposed to Warwick sticking to just using Q.
Then again, it's Warwick. Have your jungler camp his lane and win the game.
On June 09 2012 22:31 Alaric wrote: How does Wukong do against Warwick? I beat one, but I already knew the opposite top to be inferior to me (was a Bo3) and I should have been an easy gank every time their jungler (Jax) had red buff, seeing how trading makes me push because of E and the fact that I aa and WW won't if he just Q and runs. I started cloth+5, with AS marks because my only page with MR quints has those marks, and I ran oom when WW was oom too with one pot left (started cloth+5 too) and had more than half his HP left. He couldn't fight me but I couldn't kill him (did when we dove with my jungler once) and I ended up just pushing, warding and then roaming to drake with the team.
I think I would have done better with ArPen marks (and AD or MS quints, because of my pages) and a boots+3 start to be able to get more autos in when WW runs after my EautoQ, but that was against that WW. Had he been better, or had their jungler used the fact that I was pushing to bash WW's head in, I think I should have probably lost that lane (getting killed, or zoned after a few trades when WW freezes the lane unless we dive with my jungler).
I didn't get bruta as I wanted more MR, so I went 2 dblades -> hexdrinker (the shield helped against Jax burst too).
I don't think I've ever been able to beat a WW or seen a WW lose to Wukong, but I don't play him much anymore, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
If I play the matchup as WW, I just start with a +32 armor runepage and Cloth 5, then proceed to either rush Wriggle's or Glacial. At level 6, it's sort of sketchy if you manage to run WW out of mana beforehand and maybe hit 6 before him, but other than that, I don't see a Wukong ever posing a real threat to WW (and even that scenario is highly unlikely imo). I just don't see Wukong being able to outtrade Warwick because he basically wants to engage/disengage instead of partaking in prolonged fights, and whenever Wukong does that, WW just Qs him, autoattacks some creeps and you're back to square one, while you probably used 3 spells opposed to Warwick sticking to just using Q.
Then again, it's Warwick. Have your jungler camp his lane and win the game.
I think that's really the truth about Wukong he gets beat easily by champs with high sustain like WW, But usually those champions are easily camped. But if anything I would grab avarice blade and HoG and build for mid to late game by going even with them in lane. Wukong scales too well to get completely shut down you just need to not beat yourself. If you can't fight somebody then you can't don't try.
The more I think about it, the more I feel that Wukong's place in kind of awkward in lane right now. He loses to a lot of champs with innate sustain, most other lane bullies outburst him (also Garen's Q, Panth's passive, Teemo's Q mess up with his combo), he can push quite heavily every time he harasses... he's amazing in teamfights due to his ult I'm more hard-pressed to find good match-ups for him (and most are champs weak early on anyway, like Irelia, Vlad) than bad ones.
i don't think WW is auto-win against wukong ww's Q is extremely mana inefficient especially early. WW has no other ranged harass. just walk up to him and auto-Q him when he goes to last hit. if he Ws, walk away. if his W is down or he Qs, E auto auto til he does w then walk away. get tons of pots and be aggressive instead of reactive, and i think wukong can win that. at 6 neither of them gets such a huge power boost that the other can't still win, unlike some matchups.
still the only matchups i struggle with are basically riven lee renekton
you just have to go hecka aggro with WK and keep your eyes glued to your minimap for the inevitable ganks
On June 21 2012 11:23 gtrsrs wrote: i don't think WW is auto-win against wukong ww's Q is extremely mana inefficient especially early. WW has no other ranged harass. just walk up to him and auto-Q him when he goes to last hit. if he Ws, walk away. if his W is down or he Qs, E auto auto til he does w then walk away. get tons of pots and be aggressive instead of reactive, and i think wukong can win that. at 6 neither of them gets such a huge power boost that the other can't still win, unlike some matchups.
still the only matchups i struggle with are basically riven lee renekton
you just have to go hecka aggro with WK and keep your eyes glued to your minimap for the inevitable ganks
And if you are lucky enough as Wukong and you both press R at the same time you can cancel Warwicks ult with your own ^^
On May 24 2012 15:39 GhostOwl wrote: Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it.
Yea, sorry, you're wrong. I've done both and E is just better than maxing Q. 5 mana up/level is not restrictive on the mana cost and E just does strictly more damage to level up than Q unless you're staying in Melee range after the E attack speed buff wears off, which is usually not the case, as your playstyle is typically quick engage -> disengage and wait for E CD again.
If you max E first, the 5 mana per level adds up. We all know the way Wukong harasses is pretty mana-heavy. E, Q, W. Maxing E first adds an unnecessary 15~20 mana everytime you do your harass combo.
Yes, a level 1 E and a level 5 E has a difference of 20% more attack speed. I'd rather take a much less cooldown on Q. Plus, a 30% armor penetration that happens much more frequently is another positive note.
Your point about quick engage -> disengage actually hurts your argument. If you're not staying around to take advantage of the attack speed buff, then you're disregarding the best sole reason to take E over Q. Wukong's are not gonna stay after the E , Q just to get a few more hits from the attack speed buff. They're gonna decoy outta there to make sure they don't take damage so that they can get better trades.
On May 24 2012 15:39 GhostOwl wrote: Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it.
Yea, sorry, you're wrong. I've done both and E is just better than maxing Q. 5 mana up/level is not restrictive on the mana cost and E just does strictly more damage to level up than Q unless you're staying in Melee range after the E attack speed buff wears off, which is usually not the case, as your playstyle is typically quick engage -> disengage and wait for E CD again.
If you max E first, the 5 mana per level adds up. We all know the way Wukong harasses is pretty mana-heavy. E, Q, W. Maxing E first adds an unnecessary 15~20 mana everytime you do your harass combo.
Yes, a level 1 E and a level 5 E has a difference of 20% more attack speed. I'd rather take a much less cooldown on Q. Plus, a 30% armor penetration that happens much more frequently is another positive note.
Your point about quick engage -> disengage actually hurts your argument. If you're not staying around to take advantage of the attack speed buff, then you're disregarding the best sole reason to take E over Q. Wukong's are not gonna stay after the E , Q just to get a few more hits from the attack speed buff. They're gonna decoy outta there to make sure they don't take damage so that they can get better trades.
Your logic regarding mana use makes no sense. If the 15-20 mana extra per combo is "unnecessary" and destroys your mana, then how would using a 40 mana spell more frequently be any better for you mana use??
The difference between lvl 1 E and lvl 5 E isn't just 20% more attack speed. You're choosing to completely ignore the 180 damage increase from lvl 1 to lvl 5 for some strange reason. Q by comparison only increases 120 damage from lvl 1 to lvl 5.
If, like you said, Wukong disengages immediately after using EQ, the 30% armor shred on Q is just as useless as the 50% attack speed boost. (It's worth noting that the armor shred doesn't increase damage dealt from E or Q if you EQ combo in that order.) Not to mention that the armor shred doesn't improve per level of Q.
It's also important to note that Wukong's good matchups tend to not be against other currently popular melee bruisers. Rather, he tends to do better against ranged AP champs like Vlad, Kennen. In those cases, Wukong's ability to harass is severely limited by his E cooldown. Getting a lower Q cooldown does nothing for you if you can't take advantage of the cooldown reduction.
Basically, the problem with your argument of Q>E comes down to this. If you're not spamming Q on cooldown, max E gives more damage. If you're spamming Q on cooldown, max E costs less mana. In no situation will maxing Q be better than maxing E.
I can see tabi or swifties + bulwark being a good defensive core, since Wukong has such a good passive, especially with the resistances nerf in s3. Mallet is a good HP buffer item, so are randuin's and warmogs (esp. if you get fed enough that you decide to build triforce off of phage instead). BC is generally just a LW replacement (that you took to be sure to AoE down the enemy team, as Smash explained in the OP) so the rest of the build should be valid, especially the aegis part.
Such a cool champion. Pretty strong in a lot of lanes, really good ability to outplay, really good teamfight, and hard to gank.
The new itemization helps him out a fair bit in that BC is friggen ridiculously good on him, the penetration changes make his lack of magic damage a non issue. New locket is nuts on him, he wanted to itemize HP anyway so the HP/Resists re-balance not effect him...
On March 13 2013 05:35 iCanada wrote: Why does no one play Wukong?
o.o
Such a cool champion. Pretty strong in a lot of lanes, really good ability to outplay, really good teamfight, and hard to gank.
The new itemization helps him out a fair bit in that BC is friggen ridiculously good on him, the penetration changes make his lack of magic damage a non issue. New locket is nuts on him, he wanted to itemize HP anyway so the HP/Resists re-balance not effect him...
From a purely anecdotal perspective of a low-level player, Wukong tends to either snowball hard or just sort of sit in his lane and not do anything until 6 when his ult almost guarantees a kill. Whenever forced to lane against him I tend to win lane up until his ult comes up, and then I just can't fight him 1v1 or his ult guarantees he'll win it unless he's stupidly low.
He has a really strong initiate for teamfights with that ult, and he's great at assassinating carries. Using the stealth from E you can get right into the middle of the enemy team and knock them all up, or sneak on to the carry and wreck them. He's definitely an underplayed champ.
On March 13 2013 05:35 iCanada wrote: Why does no one play Wukong?
o.o
Such a cool champion. Pretty strong in a lot of lanes, really good ability to outplay, really good teamfight, and hard to gank.
The new itemization helps him out a fair bit in that BC is friggen ridiculously good on him, the penetration changes make his lack of magic damage a non issue. New locket is nuts on him, he wanted to itemize HP anyway so the HP/Resists re-balance not effect him...
Only thing I can think of is that he is not that good in a 1v2 lane and doesn't do well on low farm. That's why he isn't played in tournaments and what doesn't get played in tournaments doesn't get played much in solo queue unless it's kind of broken.
On March 13 2013 05:35 iCanada wrote: Why does no one play Wukong?
o.o
Such a cool champion. Pretty strong in a lot of lanes, really good ability to outplay, really good teamfight, and hard to gank.
The new itemization helps him out a fair bit in that BC is friggen ridiculously good on him, the penetration changes make his lack of magic damage a non issue. New locket is nuts on him, he wanted to itemize HP anyway so the HP/Resists re-balance not effect him...
Only thing I can think of is that he is not that good in a 1v2 lane and doesn't do well on low farm. That's why he isn't played in tournaments and what doesn't get played in tournaments doesn't get played much in solo queue unless it's kind of broken.
Or he is just underrated/underplayed.
Well, I understand he sucks in top level competitive play. He would be horrible 1v2. But regular laning he damn good.
I could even see him being pretty good at mid lane. That E so stronk.
He can like E-auto-Q-ult, then stealth out just before death and come back into fight to pick someone off. His teamfighting silly good.
Admittedly I forgot he in the game, and then i got him in an ARAM and crushed all the things.
When Chauster jungled him against Marn (LCS Week 4 Day 1), he was stuck on low farm all game (partly because he spent so much time trying to dig doublelift out of the ditch that he barely farmed his jungle.) It quickly reached a point that even his ulti in teamfights could be largely ignored, or that he melted so fast that he had no impact.
Just re-iterating the point that he does not do well on low farm. (This applies to both Jungle and 1v2 lane Wukong.)
I think Fnatic ran him mid once, I seem to remember it doing pretty well.
He really needs to build damage too if you can't rely on your team to abuse your ultimate. This can be a BC (if you have other physical dealers to abuse it), a BT (you'll think you're strong but then you'll look at MF's ult range and damage over half the duration a weep sadly in a corner), a LW or even a mallet, but I've tried building him on low damage stuff like Zeke's and ended up not liking it at all. Bulwark is pretty cool stuff though, with it + his passive you easily get from 60 to 100 MR (aegis + passive before 13, and bulwark + passive at 13+) in full-on teamfights, adding from 50 to 70 with base, runes and masteries, making it so you shouldn't need any more MR. Then you just buy tabi and you're pretty much set on resistances (randuin's almost makes him hilariously tanky).
As for laning he's still a pretty poor top laner despite the potential for outplays because he can't shove the lane easily, can't farm from a distance, can't harass/trade without committing or pushing the lane, has no sustain, and a pretty poor escape mechanism depending on circumstances. His kit is excellent for fighting squishy mages so if you can send him mid you should do pretty well.
Wukong Flash ulting is so devastating in solo queue, and his whole kit is very solid. He has some bad lane match-ups, but things do seem to get better at level 6. I hate being a squishy when he's on the other team.
he's quite situational, you can't surely pick him vs the best tank bruisers like shen or renekton, because at a certain point you can't kill them with your combos. The main reason why it's not played that much it's because it's not too easy to itemize him, he's not like a mid khazix which you build with assassin items, or a shen on which you only build health, he kinda needs both to be relevant in team fight and to survive enough; but i really like him and his skill set, i think it's a good solo Q pick because a lot of laners don't know how to fight vs him
On March 13 2013 20:54 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote: he's quite situational, you can't surely pick him vs the best tank bruisers like shen or renekton, because at a certain point you can't kill them with your combos. The main reason why it's not played that much it's because it's not too easy to itemize him, he's not like a mid khazix which you build with assassin items, or a shen on which you only build health, he kinda needs both to be relevant in team fight and to survive enough; but i really like him and his skill set, i think it's a good solo Q pick because a lot of laners don't know how to fight vs him
Thinking about it, why cant you get the exact items that Khazix does, and play mid? Tear, Brut, Warmogs, BC, Manamune etc. He should benefit the same way, he has a decent escape, insane damage, and due to being in mid lane is able to go bot and use the Ult to grab kills easily. I guess the downside is the lack of ranged attacks, but still it shouldn't that impossible to play him mid.
Honestly the lack of ranged attacks is EXACTLY why he has a harder time (not saying impossible) building glass cannon than Khazix. Khazix doesn't need to leap in until someone is low enough to combo down instantly/with stealth. Wukong getting focused during his ultimate is a real threat to him, you want to ult early but you don't want to die too early.
Also @ MF's ult vs Wu's - sure, but realize MF doesn't do a large aoe knockup with hers.
I remember soaz playing a few tournament games on wukong during his aAa days of season 2. He then said in a interview that he stopped playing wukong because exhaust is too strong against him. You can't expect people to use exhaust correctly against wukong in solo queue but I can see how much of a pain it can be in organized play.
On March 13 2013 20:54 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote: he's quite situational, you can't surely pick him vs the best tank bruisers like shen or renekton, because at a certain point you can't kill them with your combos. The main reason why it's not played that much it's because it's not too easy to itemize him, he's not like a mid khazix which you build with assassin items, or a shen on which you only build health, he kinda needs both to be relevant in team fight and to survive enough; but i really like him and his skill set, i think it's a good solo Q pick because a lot of laners don't know how to fight vs him
Thinking about it, why cant you get the exact items that Khazix does, and play mid? Tear, Brut, Warmogs, BC, Manamune etc. He should benefit the same way, he has a decent escape, insane damage, and due to being in mid lane is able to go bot and use the Ult to grab kills easily. I guess the downside is the lack of ranged attacks, but still it shouldn't that impossible to play him mid.
Post-6 Kha'Zix can shove the lane with a single W, Wukong is a very poor pusher (you wanna push? Spam E and pay the mana cost for it, and even then you don't shove, you just get faster). Kha'Zix isn't reliant on his ult to get kills, Wukong is and has a longer cooldown on his.
I just tried him several times and found he wasn't very fun. You end up using the same combo over and over again and I didn't enjoy it. Maybe its just me but that could have to do with his lack of play.
Actually E->auto->Q is the easiest combo, but far from the only one. The "optimal" combo is auto->Q->auto->E->keep hitting till Q's debuff runs out (or maybe using E immediatly after Q works better? depends it it's fast enough that you end up with the same amount of autos during the debuff), but your opponent shouldn't let you close enough to pull it off... making it your task to bait them in range. Just learn to spam s with him.
Wukong is fun when shit really hits the fan and you have to get tricky with W jukes. He's much more effective when he's ahead though which is why I don't like jungling with him.
Anyone think this guy is absurd right now? Granted his laning is not the strongest, but I feel he has arguably the strongest team fight presence among bruisers once he has BC+LW. After that, anything he builds is a bonus.
Randy's lets him stick so well once he ults. The slow coupled with his MS buff over the duration makes carries have to take the damage he puts out.
On March 22 2013 18:45 Mogwai wrote: Wukong has the quietest OP winrate in our game and has had it for a long long time. idk, people just like laning too much I guess.
It's not that high right now. Barely over 50%. Also I seem to do better with Trist than I do with high win rate champs and Trist has historically had a horrible win rate. UP OP.
Ehh, 52% doesn't feel too high to me. If you're between 47-53%, you're fine imo. Then again this is lolking, so iunno.
All I know is he is retarded if he can at least break even in laning. Whenever I ult with BC+LW, I still cannot believe how hard he shreds an enemy team.
And while you're here smash... y u no nerf rumble flamespitter. The numbers are stupid on that thing.
On March 22 2013 23:30 Cloud9157 wrote: Ehh, 52% doesn't feel too high to me. If you're between 47-53%, you're fine imo. Then again this is lolking, so iunno.
All I know is he is retarded if he can at least break even in laning. Whenever I ult with BC+LW, I still cannot believe how hard he shreds an enemy team.
And while you're here smash... y u no nerf rumble flamespitter. The numbers are stupid on that thing.
Well yeah. With just a BT and a couple Doran's Wukong can get 200 AD pretty easily. So at level 6 he has like up to 4.8*200 damage tacked on or about 1000 physical damage on his ult from just the AD portion. Most people at level 6 don't even have 1000 life.
Not as scary in a 1v1 since autoattacks will deal a lot of damage too and Wukong can't auto in ult but in larger fights he should be scarier.
On March 22 2013 23:30 Cloud9157 wrote: Ehh, 52% doesn't feel too high to me. If you're between 47-53%, you're fine imo. Then again this is lolking, so iunno.
All I know is he is retarded if he can at least break even in laning. Whenever I ult with BC+LW, I still cannot believe how hard he shreds an enemy team.
And while you're here smash... y u no nerf rumble flamespitter. The numbers are stupid on that thing.
Well yeah. With just a BT and a couple Doran's Wukong can get 200 AD pretty easily. So at level 6 he has like up to 4.8*200 damage tacked on or about 1000 physical damage on his ult from just the AD portion. Most people at level 6 don't even have 1000 life.
Not as scary in a 1v1 since autoattacks will deal a lot of damage too and Wukong can't auto in ult but in larger fights he should be scarier.
How are you supposed to get BT and a couple dorans at level 6? If I remember correctly, you have ~1500 gold when doing pretty well at level 6.
On March 22 2013 23:30 Cloud9157 wrote: Ehh, 52% doesn't feel too high to me. If you're between 47-53%, you're fine imo. Then again this is lolking, so iunno.
All I know is he is retarded if he can at least break even in laning. Whenever I ult with BC+LW, I still cannot believe how hard he shreds an enemy team.
And while you're here smash... y u no nerf rumble flamespitter. The numbers are stupid on that thing.
Well yeah. With just a BT and a couple Doran's Wukong can get 200 AD pretty easily. So at level 6 he has like up to 4.8*200 damage tacked on or about 1000 physical damage on his ult from just the AD portion. Most people at level 6 don't even have 1000 life.
Not as scary in a 1v1 since autoattacks will deal a lot of damage too and Wukong can't auto in ult but in larger fights he should be scarier.
How are you supposed to get BT and a couple dorans at level 6? If I remember correctly, you have ~1500 gold when doing pretty well at level 6.
You don't. It's just the level he gets his ult I guess. Would level 13 be more reasonable for BT and 2 dorans? It's still enough to almost kill most champions at that point in the game.
On March 23 2013 04:39 Alaric wrote: If you want raw damage look at MF's ult. Same if you want range, and dps (= short duration). Wukong's only has a knock-up on hers, really.
Lower AD ratio, can be sidestepped quickly, can be interupted and can not move while in use because it is channeled.
On March 23 2013 04:39 Alaric wrote: If you want raw damage look at MF's ult. Same if you want range, and dps (= short duration). Wukong's only has a knock-up on hers, really.
On March 23 2013 04:39 Alaric wrote: If you want raw damage look at MF's ult. Same if you want range, and dps (= short duration). Wukong's only has a knock-up on hers, really.
Lower AD ratio, can be sidestepped quickly, can be interupted and can not move while in use because it is channeled.
Yeah my bad about the damage, forgot it was total AD for Wukong, it's only weaker at level 6.
On March 23 2013 04:39 Alaric wrote: If you want raw damage look at MF's ult. Same if you want range, and dps (= short duration). Wukong's only has a knock-up on hers, really.
why not both?
Pretty much this. They combo so well. Toss in someone who can add more lockdown or pull-in or whatever and you get a pretty classic Press-R-Win-Teamfight comp.