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On June 21 2012 22:40 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 23:28 Mogwai wrote:On May 24 2012 15:39 GhostOwl wrote:
Good guide overall, but I do have a problem with your build. I'd rather max Q first over E. Maxing E first raises the mana cost (which Wukong lacks because of decoy-harass), and maxing Q first will lower its cooldown. I know maxing E raises AS, but it's still not worth it. Yea, sorry, you're wrong. I've done both and E is just better than maxing Q. 5 mana up/level is not restrictive on the mana cost and E just does strictly more damage to level up than Q unless you're staying in Melee range after the E attack speed buff wears off, which is usually not the case, as your playstyle is typically quick engage -> disengage and wait for E CD again. If you max E first, the 5 mana per level adds up. We all know the way Wukong harasses is pretty mana-heavy. E, Q, W. Maxing E first adds an unnecessary 15~20 mana everytime you do your harass combo. Yes, a level 1 E and a level 5 E has a difference of 20% more attack speed. I'd rather take a much less cooldown on Q. Plus, a 30% armor penetration that happens much more frequently is another positive note. Your point about quick engage -> disengage actually hurts your argument. If you're not staying around to take advantage of the attack speed buff, then you're disregarding the best sole reason to take E over Q. Wukong's are not gonna stay after the E , Q just to get a few more hits from the attack speed buff. They're gonna decoy outta there to make sure they don't take damage so that they can get better trades.
Your logic regarding mana use makes no sense. If the 15-20 mana extra per combo is "unnecessary" and destroys your mana, then how would using a 40 mana spell more frequently be any better for you mana use??
The difference between lvl 1 E and lvl 5 E isn't just 20% more attack speed. You're choosing to completely ignore the 180 damage increase from lvl 1 to lvl 5 for some strange reason. Q by comparison only increases 120 damage from lvl 1 to lvl 5.
If, like you said, Wukong disengages immediately after using EQ, the 30% armor shred on Q is just as useless as the 50% attack speed boost. (It's worth noting that the armor shred doesn't increase damage dealt from E or Q if you EQ combo in that order.) Not to mention that the armor shred doesn't improve per level of Q.
It's also important to note that Wukong's good matchups tend to not be against other currently popular melee bruisers. Rather, he tends to do better against ranged AP champs like Vlad, Kennen. In those cases, Wukong's ability to harass is severely limited by his E cooldown. Getting a lower Q cooldown does nothing for you if you can't take advantage of the cooldown reduction.
Basically, the problem with your argument of Q>E comes down to this. If you're not spamming Q on cooldown, max E gives more damage. If you're spamming Q on cooldown, max E costs less mana. In no situation will maxing Q be better than maxing E.
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^ I guess you convinced me. I do still feel like Q or E is very similar unlike most other champion builds though.
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What is the best new Build for Wukong?
BC is core i guess but what items after that?
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boots - bc - bc - bc - bc - bc
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I can see tabi or swifties + bulwark being a good defensive core, since Wukong has such a good passive, especially with the resistances nerf in s3.
Mallet is a good HP buffer item, so are randuin's and warmogs (esp. if you get fed enough that you decide to build triforce off of phage instead).
BC is generally just a LW replacement (that you took to be sure to AoE down the enemy team, as Smash explained in the OP) so the rest of the build should be valid, especially the aegis part.
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Why does no one play Wukong?
o.o
Such a cool champion. Pretty strong in a lot of lanes, really good ability to outplay, really good teamfight, and hard to gank.
The new itemization helps him out a fair bit in that BC is friggen ridiculously good on him, the penetration changes make his lack of magic damage a non issue. New locket is nuts on him, he wanted to itemize HP anyway so the HP/Resists re-balance not effect him...
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On March 13 2013 05:35 iCanada wrote:
Why does no one play Wukong?
o.o
Such a cool champion. Pretty strong in a lot of lanes, really good ability to outplay, really good teamfight, and hard to gank.
The new itemization helps him out a fair bit in that BC is friggen ridiculously good on him, the penetration changes make his lack of magic damage a non issue. New locket is nuts on him, he wanted to itemize HP anyway so the HP/Resists re-balance not effect him...
From a purely anecdotal perspective of a low-level player, Wukong tends to either snowball hard or just sort of sit in his lane and not do anything until 6 when his ult almost guarantees a kill. Whenever forced to lane against him I tend to win lane up until his ult comes up, and then I just can't fight him 1v1 or his ult guarantees he'll win it unless he's stupidly low.
He has a really strong initiate for teamfights with that ult, and he's great at assassinating carries. Using the stealth from E you can get right into the middle of the enemy team and knock them all up, or sneak on to the carry and wreck them. He's definitely an underplayed champ.
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On March 13 2013 05:35 iCanada wrote:
Why does no one play Wukong?
o.o
Such a cool champion. Pretty strong in a lot of lanes, really good ability to outplay, really good teamfight, and hard to gank.
The new itemization helps him out a fair bit in that BC is friggen ridiculously good on him, the penetration changes make his lack of magic damage a non issue. New locket is nuts on him, he wanted to itemize HP anyway so the HP/Resists re-balance not effect him...
Only thing I can think of is that he is not that good in a 1v2 lane and doesn't do well on low farm. That's why he isn't played in tournaments and what doesn't get played in tournaments doesn't get played much in solo queue unless it's kind of broken.
Or he is just underrated/underplayed.
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On March 13 2013 06:46 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:35 iCanada wrote:
Why does no one play Wukong?
o.o
Such a cool champion. Pretty strong in a lot of lanes, really good ability to outplay, really good teamfight, and hard to gank.
The new itemization helps him out a fair bit in that BC is friggen ridiculously good on him, the penetration changes make his lack of magic damage a non issue. New locket is nuts on him, he wanted to itemize HP anyway so the HP/Resists re-balance not effect him... Only thing I can think of is that he is not that good in a 1v2 lane and doesn't do well on low farm. That's why he isn't played in tournaments and what doesn't get played in tournaments doesn't get played much in solo queue unless it's kind of broken. Or he is just underrated/underplayed.
Well, I understand he sucks in top level competitive play. He would be horrible 1v2. But regular laning he damn good.
I could even see him being pretty good at mid lane. That E so stronk.
He can like E-auto-Q-ult, then stealth out just before death and come back into fight to pick someone off. His teamfighting silly good.
Admittedly I forgot he in the game, and then i got him in an ARAM and crushed all the things.
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When Chauster jungled him against Marn (LCS Week 4 Day 1), he was stuck on low farm all game (partly because he spent so much time trying to dig doublelift out of the ditch that he barely farmed his jungle.) It quickly reached a point that even his ulti in teamfights could be largely ignored, or that he melted so fast that he had no impact.
Just re-iterating the point that he does not do well on low farm. (This applies to both Jungle and 1v2 lane Wukong.)
I think Fnatic ran him mid once, I seem to remember it doing pretty well.
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He really needs to build damage too if you can't rely on your team to abuse your ultimate. This can be a BC (if you have other physical dealers to abuse it), a BT (you'll think you're strong but then you'll look at MF's ult range and damage over half the duration a weep sadly in a corner), a LW or even a mallet, but I've tried building him on low damage stuff like Zeke's and ended up not liking it at all.
Bulwark is pretty cool stuff though, with it + his passive you easily get from 60 to 100 MR (aegis + passive before 13, and bulwark + passive at 13+) in full-on teamfights, adding from 50 to 70 with base, runes and masteries, making it so you shouldn't need any more MR. Then you just buy tabi and you're pretty much set on resistances (randuin's almost makes him hilariously tanky).
As for laning he's still a pretty poor top laner despite the potential for outplays because he can't shove the lane easily, can't farm from a distance, can't harass/trade without committing or pushing the lane, has no sustain, and a pretty poor escape mechanism depending on circumstances.
His kit is excellent for fighting squishy mages so if you can send him mid you should do pretty well.
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Wukong Flash ulting is so devastating in solo queue, and his whole kit is very solid. He has some bad lane match-ups, but things do seem to get better at level 6. I hate being a squishy when he's on the other team.
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he's quite situational, you can't surely pick him vs the best tank bruisers like shen or renekton, because at a certain point you can't kill them with your combos.
The main reason why it's not played that much it's because it's not too easy to itemize him, he's not like a mid khazix which you build with assassin items, or a shen on which you only build health, he kinda needs both to be relevant in team fight and to survive enough; but i really like him and his skill set, i think it's a good solo Q pick because a lot of laners don't know how to fight vs him
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On March 13 2013 20:54 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote:
he's quite situational, you can't surely pick him vs the best tank bruisers like shen or renekton, because at a certain point you can't kill them with your combos.
The main reason why it's not played that much it's because it's not too easy to itemize him, he's not like a mid khazix which you build with assassin items, or a shen on which you only build health, he kinda needs both to be relevant in team fight and to survive enough; but i really like him and his skill set, i think it's a good solo Q pick because a lot of laners don't know how to fight vs him
Thinking about it, why cant you get the exact items that Khazix does, and play mid?
Tear, Brut, Warmogs, BC, Manamune etc.
He should benefit the same way, he has a decent escape, insane damage, and due to being in mid lane is able to go bot and use the Ult to grab kills easily. I guess the downside is the lack of ranged attacks, but still it shouldn't that impossible to play him mid.
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Honestly the lack of ranged attacks is EXACTLY why he has a harder time (not saying impossible) building glass cannon than Khazix. Khazix doesn't need to leap in until someone is low enough to combo down instantly/with stealth. Wukong getting focused during his ultimate is a real threat to him, you want to ult early but you don't want to die too early.
Also @ MF's ult vs Wu's - sure, but realize MF doesn't do a large aoe knockup with hers.
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I remember soaz playing a few tournament games on wukong during his aAa days of season 2. He then said in a interview that he stopped playing wukong because exhaust is too strong against him. You can't expect people to use exhaust correctly against wukong in solo queue but I can see how much of a pain it can be in organized play.
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On March 13 2013 21:14 Rixxe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 20:54 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote:
he's quite situational, you can't surely pick him vs the best tank bruisers like shen or renekton, because at a certain point you can't kill them with your combos.
The main reason why it's not played that much it's because it's not too easy to itemize him, he's not like a mid khazix which you build with assassin items, or a shen on which you only build health, he kinda needs both to be relevant in team fight and to survive enough; but i really like him and his skill set, i think it's a good solo Q pick because a lot of laners don't know how to fight vs him Thinking about it, why cant you get the exact items that Khazix does, and play mid? Tear, Brut, Warmogs, BC, Manamune etc. He should benefit the same way, he has a decent escape, insane damage, and due to being in mid lane is able to go bot and use the Ult to grab kills easily. I guess the downside is the lack of ranged attacks, but still it shouldn't that impossible to play him mid.
Post-6 Kha'Zix can shove the lane with a single W, Wukong is a very poor pusher (you wanna push? Spam E and pay the mana cost for it, and even then you don't shove, you just get faster). Kha'Zix isn't reliant on his ult to get kills, Wukong is and has a longer cooldown on his.
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I just tried him several times and found he wasn't very fun. You end up using the same combo over and over again and I didn't enjoy it. Maybe its just me but that could have to do with his lack of play.
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Actually E->auto->Q is the easiest combo, but far from the only one. The "optimal" combo is auto->Q->auto->E->keep hitting till Q's debuff runs out (or maybe using E immediatly after Q works better? depends it it's fast enough that you end up with the same amount of autos during the debuff), but your opponent shouldn't let you close enough to pull it off... making it your task to bait them in range.
Just learn to spam s with him.
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Wukong is fun when shit really hits the fan and you have to get tricky with W jukes. He's much more effective when he's ahead though which is why I don't like jungling with him.
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EPT
