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On March 20 2012 02:54 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 02:29 Mogwai wrote:
nothing to help, that's the matchup. deal with it. Are there any variations to the itemization that could be changed to better deal with it? Once I got BT I was fine, but before that it was near impossible. If not, I guess I'll just bend over and take it in the ass on the rare occasion that I do play him. Also, does Manth have a straight up counter? I have yet to lose to anyone besides Yorick.
Malphite, Nunu, any super sustainer who gets a little early help (Udyr, WW, Irelia, Yorrick)
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Against Yorick I like to just skip the brutalizer unless i can get it ridiculously early or the yorick is just bad. in my experience, when I manage to get brutalizer is about when yorick has tear+some armor and at that point you don't really want to trade/can't trade favorably so I feel like i'm better off just going straight for the BT.
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Against Yorick I just like to play Xin. I'm thinking about bringing back the solo top mumu for the yorick matchup, utah style baby.
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On March 21 2012 00:53 Mogwai wrote:
Against Yorick I just like to play Xin. I'm thinking about bringing back the solo top mumu for the yorick matchup, utah style baby.
maxing E on mumu? sounds good
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What do you guys think about the new hexdrinker + its upgrade? I was thinking it might be nice to get it if I'm up against an AP lane, after brutalizer, but I'm not sure if it's better than going straight for a BT.
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it's pretty good from my few tests.
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Apparently someone has had troubles against Maokai as Pantheon. I looked at numbers, kits, stuff and I found that unless Mao's passive (and a correct setup, obviously) allowed him to outlast Panth's mana, he shouldn't be able to compete (Q has better damage, longer cd, the drawbacks of a skillshot and a bit more mana for Mao, his ult can be a good bait during towerdives or to setup ganks).
I've been unable to assess the value on Mao's passive, apart from the fact that Panth will probably spam, at least at the beginning, to start zoning Maokai. Anyone played the matchup to have a good idea on how it goes?
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On March 26 2012 10:44 Alaric wrote:
Apparently someone has had troubles against Maokai as Pantheon. I looked at numbers, kits, stuff and I found that unless Mao's passive (and a correct setup, obviously) allowed him to outlast Panth's mana, he shouldn't be able to compete (Q has better damage, longer cd, the drawbacks of a skillshot and a bit more mana for Mao, his ult can be a good bait during towerdives or to setup ganks).
I've been unable to assess the value on Mao's passive, apart from the fact that Panth will probably spam, at least at the beginning, to start zoning Maokai. Anyone played the matchup to have a good idea on how it goes?
While I didn't play the matchup specifically from my top experience as Maokai he kinda behaves like Cho'Gath in lane. The first few levels are usually a pain, but once he has some items/levels he can start doing whatever he pleases.
Against Pantheon he can probably hold his own because he can sneak CS with proper saplings, he can support ganks incredibly well and item wise he has no problem with rushing e.g. glacial shroud.
vs Panth he can probably abuse proper runes and his passive to survive the early shit and start taking a dump on him later, but I doubt he is THAT strong vs him.
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On March 20 2012 02:59 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 02:54 Mondeezy wrote:On March 20 2012 02:29 Mogwai wrote:
nothing to help, that's the matchup. deal with it. Are there any variations to the itemization that could be changed to better deal with it? Once I got BT I was fine, but before that it was near impossible. If not, I guess I'll just bend over and take it in the ass on the rare occasion that I do play him. Also, does Manth have a straight up counter? I have yet to lose to anyone besides Yorick. Malphite, Nunu, any super sustainer who gets a little early help (Udyr, WW, Irelia, Yorrick)
Wait, i recall you saying something about picking panth against an irelia, when you were pretty much dominating a leesin as udyr yesterday. Is it different when irelia gets a little early help?
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On March 28 2012 04:09 billy5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 02:59 Mogwai wrote:On March 20 2012 02:54 Mondeezy wrote:On March 20 2012 02:29 Mogwai wrote:
nothing to help, that's the matchup. deal with it. Are there any variations to the itemization that could be changed to better deal with it? Once I got BT I was fine, but before that it was near impossible. If not, I guess I'll just bend over and take it in the ass on the rare occasion that I do play him. Also, does Manth have a straight up counter? I have yet to lose to anyone besides Yorick. Malphite, Nunu, any super sustainer who gets a little early help (Udyr, WW, Irelia, Yorrick) Wait, i recall you saying something about picking panth against an irelia, when you were pretty much dominating a leesin as udyr yesterday. Is it different when irelia gets a little early help?
Panth actually probably just counters Irelia after those last nerfs, but it used to be that if Irelia's jungler camped Pantheon hard enough early that Irelia could get Wriggle's on equal farm as Pantheon, she just won the lane for free.
Sustain vs. Pantheon is just a battle of whether the opposing defense can outscale Pantheon's offense and it's really just a question of how much help they need to be able to do that.
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Just played against a Singed—the first one I saw that started with some armor, dshield here. Was purple side, so I ambushed him in the river, without doing to much.
Setups:
arpen reds/AD quints for me, 21-0-9, ignite/flash, dblade start
armor yellows/MS quints for him, probably 9-21, tp/ghost, dshield start
After the ambush, I started fighting him, a bit awkward as he took poison trail at level 1 and so I couldn't easily avoid damage. After I committed, I only managed to make him back, and he tp'd (with 3-4 pots) before I could back myself (trying to shove the lane a bit). He was going to force me to back when I received a gank, that granted me an assist (surviving at only 16 hp).
After that it was basically him tossing me into his poison travail, and using it to cover his tracks whenever he'd chug a pot, to prevent me from following him with a spear. He was a bit faster thanks to his MS quints too. As he gained levels without me killing him (I got a kill later on a second gank, but only because he tried to catch me, being low HP, and I Q-ignited him before he reached me), he was pushing harder and harder. I managed to stay even in farm bu couldn't zone nor deny him, and he'd easily toss me in his poison trail several times. My best gambit was to bait him under my tower, then stun him once he used fling and took aggro. Even then, once 6 he'd use his ult whenever needed to regen, chug pots, and basically not miss out on a lot of farm.
I kept on buying pots because I couldn't avoid his damage, and wards to prevent Nocturne dives (he'd probably have been able, but our own jungler mauled him), thus delaying my BFS by a lot after 2 dblades, brutaliser and mercs (upgraded only not to use 2 slots). He kept on gaining levels and buying parts for his RoA, so my damage kind of slowly fell off. Once I managed to buy my BFS I started damaging him again, but by then lane phase had ended.
Had it continued, he'd have won the lane by taking my tower, despite even cs. His pushing slowly gnawed at it and his poison trail zoned me off his minions; after that, I couldn't both tank the entire wave and deal with his aggressiveness. He'd probably have won a lot earlier w/o the help from those 2 ganks, too (basically, when he came back to lane with tp w/o missing exp, and he'd have forced me to back and so miss some).
I don't think Singed is a counter to Pantheon, so what did I do wrong? It seems to me that using AD quints instead of MS like I used to do was one of two main things, as I couldn't keep my distances from him and was forced to get flinged into his poison everytime he wanted, in exchange for only one spear and 1-2 autos.
The other thing being the TP summoner, which proved this time far more effective than exhaust/ignite all-ins trying to kill me when I go for it. I probably should've played more carefully, patiently, and either forced him to use it w/o expanding too much (used my ignite the first time), or make slow progress to be 100% sure to kill him when I decide to try.
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If you had a replay that'd make it a lot easier to judge. I feel like pantheon should easily be able to zone out a singed early even if he gets that many pots.
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United States5348 Posts
open boots vs singed imo. You need to be able to reliably keep your distance from him when you want to, and he cannot start boots without getting thrashed, so you retain the mobility advantage.
edit: also it sounds to me like you're not effectively using auto attacks in the early levels. Singed has to be close to creeps to be able to cs, and panth can seriously abuse that, esp in the 1-6 range.
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Also, if you know you're laning against an AP champ, you can get mana regen yellows instead of armor and go crazy spear chuck mode. Not sure how your runepage/rune access situation is but if you know you're playing pantheon it's good to have one page for fighting APs and one for fighting ADs.
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From my experience (which is 1400's ELO so take from what you will) Pantheon trucks Singed. Always open boots+3 and run MR blues/mana yellows. Early on, you should be able to pretty much prevent any cs with spear-auto.
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I have never had any issue with singed, I open boots, and just spear the shit out of him (get a few flat mana regen yellows). You can easily stay out of his poison and still hit him with every spear.
A good trick is if you see he is going to fling you, save W and just use it the second after he flings, popping you back over to his front and avoiding getting in the poison. Then you can AA/Spear/HSS him and you get the shield too.
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Meh. I just go flash/ignite Dblade with apen red, ad yellows/quints, and mr blues. Harass him with autos starting level 1. If he turns on poison just throw spear and back off; don't get into the poison if possible. With micro it's possible to harass with autos and still avoid the poison trail. Also, lvl 1 poison doesn't do much damage so don't be too scared of it, especially if you're running flat mr runes.
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... oh yeah, I'm dumb. Got one of my usual rune pages for AD instead of remembering I have a page for Pantheon against magic damage. ._. Way to call it "Pantheon mid" and forget about it because I was top, I'm so dumb.
Also movespeed, as I tought, to stay ahead of him whenever he wants to fling/poison. Thanks for the reminder/advice!
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I dun get it, I seem to be ruining everyone with Pantheon top lane these days... only matchup I'm ever having trouble with is malphite, but everyone seems to derp into like Kennen, Nidalee or Udyr to try to counter me recently and I've just been bodying them. Pantheon real manly champ, should just play him top or Jarman jungle every game.
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Uh... I'd be curious to see how Panth vs Kennen does. He's got good poke and his hard to zone because of his shuriken. Does Panth's passive blocks the mark and bonus damage from every 5th auto too? That would be huge (or not, if Kennen just attacks twice once he's at 4).
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EPT
