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On February 13 2012 03:01 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 06:49 Alaric wrote:
Nunu's plentiful annoying against a large range of champs, both top and mid. Real lane bully there, it's just his scaling doesn't warrant giving him solo farm. It doesn't really matter. We both know pantheon's scaling isn't that great either so if he loses his lane badly, nunu is still stronger later in the game. I'd agree gangplank would probably be a better counter though. I say probably because good nunu ults can win games, and midgame bloodboil can really boost an AD carry's dps.
Gangplank ISN'T a pantheon counter. Just because he survive through maxing oranges and stacking armor doesn't mean he's a counter.
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On February 13 2012 03:36 Dgiese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:01 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 12 2012 06:49 Alaric wrote:
Nunu's plentiful annoying against a large range of champs, both top and mid. Real lane bully there, it's just his scaling doesn't warrant giving him solo farm. It doesn't really matter. We both know pantheon's scaling isn't that great either so if he loses his lane badly, nunu is still stronger later in the game. I'd agree gangplank would probably be a better counter though. I say probably because good nunu ults can win games, and midgame bloodboil can really boost an AD carry's dps. Gangplank ISN'T a pantheon counter. Just because he survive through maxing oranges and stacking armor doesn't mean he's a counter.
^this. Gangplank can farm against a pantheon by maxing oranges and stacking armor, but he still can't zone him or kill him unless Pantheon messes up. Going even in the lane != counter
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On February 13 2012 03:39 Perplex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:36 Dgiese wrote:On February 13 2012 03:01 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On February 12 2012 06:49 Alaric wrote:
Nunu's plentiful annoying against a large range of champs, both top and mid. Real lane bully there, it's just his scaling doesn't warrant giving him solo farm. It doesn't really matter. We both know pantheon's scaling isn't that great either so if he loses his lane badly, nunu is still stronger later in the game. I'd agree gangplank would probably be a better counter though. I say probably because good nunu ults can win games, and midgame bloodboil can really boost an AD carry's dps. Gangplank ISN'T a pantheon counter. Just because he survive through maxing oranges and stacking armor doesn't mean he's a counter. ^this. Gangplank can farm against a pantheon by maxing oranges and stacking armor, but he still can't zone him or kill him unless Pantheon messes up. Going even in the lane != counter
Are you joking?
Going even in the lane as GP against Pantheon equals winning the lane. Times infinity.
He outscales Pantheon so much it's not even funny and, unlike him, has actual global presence. To win a lane as Pantheon is to dismantle your opponent, effectively putting him 30+ CS behind. If you're not accomplishing that against a GP, you have a problem once the later mid game hits.
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Granted, but just because someone outscales you and doesn't immediately die to you doesn't make him a counter. Like the OP says, people like malph and cho are counters, cause they can go heavy armor and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest. Yes GP can do things to survive, but it comes at a heavy cost to him (Admittedly not as heavy of a cost to pantheon, due to late game scaling, but still a cost).
The point is, surviving and outscaling someone isnt a counter in and of itself. Otherwise Nasus would counter almost everyone.
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On February 13 2012 04:44 Dgiese wrote:
Granted, but just because someone outscales you and doesn't immediately die to you doesn't make him a counter. Like the OP says, people like malph and cho are counters, cause they can go heavy armor and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest. Yes GP can do things to survive, but it comes at a heavy cost to him (Admittedly not as heavy of a cost to pantheon, due to late game scaling, but still a cost).
The point is, surviving and outscaling someone isnt a counter in and of itself. Otherwise Nasus would counter almost everyone.
I never said he was a counter either. If you want to counter Pantheon pick Malphite, period. That being said, the guy I was quoting assumed going even in lane against Pantheon as GP does not mean you won your lane, which is flat out wrong.
Sidenote: I don't think the cost for standing a chance against Pantheon are all that high. Armor quints are not a big deal and a maxed W does not hurt your ability to teamfight all that much after all. I agree GP is no straight up counter to Pantheon, but I'd use him to counter PICK a Pantheon based on the assumption I will always come out ahead of that lane because I know both sides of the MU. Oh, and I hate Malphite with a passion and I suck at Cho.
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I don't get the idea that max orange gp outlasts and therefore beats pantheon. If you have no presence in your lane vs pantheon then he can and will kill your mid and invade your red/blue buff with his jungler while you try to catch up on farm, and will ult your bottom lane whenever he goes back to buy. Your ult is nice for team presence but it's got nothing on a pantheon gank. In a head on fight in the jungle you're obviously weaker without maxed q and e so it's not like you could stop a slightly coordinated attack at the buffs or even a burgeoning teamfight early on. You guys are talking about this stuff purely as "well he survives the lane and therefore, thanks to scaling, wins" which precludes the Pantheon only existing inside of his specific lane.
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On February 13 2012 05:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I don't get the idea that max orange gp outlasts and therefore beats pantheon. If you have no presence in your lane vs pantheon then he can and will kill your mid and invade your red/blue buff with his jungler while you try to catch up on farm. In a head on fight you're obviously weaker without maxed q and e so it's not like you could stop a slightly coordinated attack.
Assuming organized play and a team that is able to communicate via VoIP, sure. In SoloQ, where everyone minds their own business and teams are not good enough to close out games when they have a distinct advantage, it does not matter because more often than not, GP can reach a point where his teamfight presence is twice as big as Pantheons.
Also, if you chose to gank mid, you'll probably lose your tower, which makes further invading a lot harder.
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On February 13 2012 05:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I don't get the idea that max orange gp outlasts and therefore beats pantheon. If you have no presence in your lane vs pantheon then he can and will kill your mid and invade your red/blue buff with his jungler while you try to catch up on farm, and will ult your bottom lane whenever he goes back to buy. Your ult is nice for team presence but it's got nothing on a pantheon gank. In a head on fight in the jungle you're obviously weaker without maxed q and e so it's not like you could stop a slightly coordinated attack at the buffs or even a burgeoning teamfight early on. You guys are talking about this stuff purely as "well he survives the lane and therefore, thanks to scaling, wins" which precludes the Pantheon only existing inside of his specific lane.
max oranges gp makes pantheon overextend like fuck if he want to keep up harass or risk GP freefarm, which, as people noted, is a bad tradeoff.
he is a free kill when overextended as such, esp with GP's passive. not a hard counter, but notable on both sides as having strong / weak points.
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Pantheon is one of the most gankable lanes for both teams. If you try to gank for a weak gangplank and their jungler is there, you're also screwed. I just think saying Max Orange GP counters Pantheon in any sense is fundamentally flawed. It assumes your team can't do anything with a practical man advantage in all the other lanes thanks to panth's mobility and retardedly strong ganks.
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I'm pretty confident that max oranges GP is a soft counter to Pantheon. GP with armor runes+cloth and maxing oranges is going to be able to farm fine. If Pantheon can't get a large lead over GP then in my eyes, he "lost" his lane since GP scales so much harder than him. Pantheon ganks on other lanes is always a large threat regardless of who Pantheon is facing.
The point of max oranges GP is that even tho you can't harass or kill Pantheon, he can't do crap to you. You will farm perfectly fine and you really shouldn't be behind by more than 6~10 cs, which your parrley passive more than makes up for. Max oranges GP never has to "catch up in farm" since he shouldn't be behind in the first place. Yes, max oranges GP does less damage than if you maxed Q or E, so you will be less of a presence in skirmishes in the jungle.
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That completely ignores everything I said. My point is that you are too weak to help defend your own jungle and that if your only goal is to farm you have left your other lanes and dragon for dead as you are a non presence until midgame. "Just farming" isn't a counter to pantheon if he takes the advantage from the rest of your team thanks to your forced passivity. There's a reason Gangplank doesn't WANT to max W to stay in lane against anyone else.
I understand it's solo queue but i can't possibly get behind the idea that "just farming" beats a Pantheon lane.
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Pantheon > GP, just not as hard as most people seem to think. A better GP will beat a worse Pantheon and vice versa, but a really good Pantheon vs. a really good GP is in Pantheon's favor, including late game scaling. The nice thing is that there are only like 5 Pantheons out there who are actually good enough at the matchup to beat good GPs, so you're generally pretty safe picking GP vs. Pantheon if you know the matchup.
Nunu >>>>> Pantheon, 2nd hardest counter after Malphite, shit's not even fair. Sidenote: people have a flawed view of the late game, and thus underestimate every character that falls off even a little bit. A farmed nunu vs. a denied opponent is a bigger problem than anyone seems willing to admit just because he doesn't scale as hard as Veigar. When a level 16 Nunu with fully charged RoA decides to start channeling a defensive ult to protect his ranged carry, you fucking better start dumping some CC on him or you're about to get 3 for none'd, and if you have to dump cc on him, it's not on the bloodboiled ranged carry who's tearing you a new bobbum.
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On February 14 2012 01:39 Mogwai wrote:
When a level 16 Nunu with fully charged RoA decides to start channeling a defensive ult to protect his ranged carry, you fucking better start dumping some CC on him or you're about to get 3 for none'd, and if you have to dump cc on him, it's not on the bloodboiled ranged carry who's tearing you a new bobbum.
God damn it Smash, I just spit out my carrots.
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rofl, the league is way too good. one of my ranked teams is named Fear Boners and if I were to make a team tomorrow I'd either name it Bobbum Men or The Equipmunk Shack, lol.
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That fucking episode.
"Those aren't letters. That's a spider with penises for legs."
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Played Pantheon for the first time last night. Having read Smash's guide and watched him and Loci smash faces, I first-blooded Riven by 3:30. Sufficiently terrified of me, she's completely zoned out but I managed to kill her again a few minutes later. Finally Nocturne comes to gank me and they tower dive. I w-q-e Nocturne and he dies to the tower. Riven bails out but my Amumu snags her in the bush and I finish her off with a spear for the double  Riven is at 25 cs 15 minutes into the game, i'm 5-0 (caught Nocturne trying to steal our blue earlier), games in the bag right? 
Their Anivia is 4-0 and crushing our Ziggs. After I back from the tower dive debacle, Ziggs requests I switch with him. I reeeeeeally didn't want to, knowing that I have zilch survivablity, but I do anyways My feed is wasted. Anivia has rod of ages and blue buff. She zones ME out and kills me even when I stun her on tower, surviving with one tick left on egg form.  I get focused hard, blown up every team fight and finish like 8-7, we lose. asd;flkj I'm used to carrying hard when I get a feed like that with Gangplank or Irelia QQ
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Equipmunk sharp, equipmunk dirty
Equipmunk make Kevin's bobbum hurty
Booobbbbbbbbbbbbummmmmmmmmmmm.
lol, anyway, back to Pantheon. I'm going to try harder with counter-specs on Pantheon vs. the really obnoxious matchups. I've been derping with AD quints vs. Malphite/Nunu/Cho, and now I'm wondering if I can manage to turn the lane into a freefarm lane via smarter specing and building.
On February 14 2012 04:10 Hyren wrote:Played Pantheon for the first time last night. Having read Smash's guide and watched him and Loci smash faces, I first-blooded Riven by 3:30. Sufficiently terrified of me, she's completely zoned out but I managed to kill her again a few minutes later. Finally Nocturne comes to gank me and they tower dive. I w-q-e Nocturne and he dies to the tower. Riven bails out but my Amumu snags her in the bush and I finish her off with a spear for the double Riven is at 25 cs 15 minutes into the game, i'm 5-0 (caught Nocturne trying to steal our blue earlier), games in the bag right? Their Anivia is 4-0 and crushing our Ziggs. After I back from the tower dive debacle, Ziggs requests I switch with him. I reeeeeeally didn't want to, knowing that I have zilch survivablity, but I do anyways My feed is wasted. Anivia has rod of ages and blue buff. She zones ME out and kills me even when I stun her on tower, surviving with one tick left on egg form. I get focused hard, blown up every team fight and finish like 8-7, we lose. asd;flkj I'm used to carrying hard when I get a feed like that with Gangplank or Irelia QQ
If it will make you feel any better, no Melee can carry vs. fed Anivia. Anivia real fucking S-tier late game melee stomper. You shouldn't have switched lanes, your only hope is to stomp Riven completely out of the game while Ziggs towercamps and uses his range to get what CS he can without dying. Then you need to hope that you can exploit split pushing with Pantheon later in the game to win it because you cannot successfully teamfight vs. Anivia when your strongest character is Pantheon or any other Melee.
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Starks / Atmas / tanky shit was so good. A bit less now with Zeke's.
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Stark's / Atma's / tanky shit was at no point in time a good idea on Pantheon. Sorry to have to burst your bubble on that one.
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I meant on Nunu but forgot his name, sorry. Not that it was the thread to say that in first place.
Btw, will you be streaming this evening?
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EPT
