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One of the biggest weaknesses of melee champions is pokes/kiting when you aren't comfortably fully committing. A spell block is going to eat up a spammable poke like volley, tornado, corki rockets, mumu toss (breaks veil but gets him in range to ulti anyway) any ap poke, etc. A FoN doesn't block the spell but it means you can regen a lot and it means you can back out of focus fire and regen up and go back in again with a bit more health when people are low, your cd's are up and you have some form of lifesteal. (i.e every bruiser after 6 seconds to wait for cooldowns)
In terms of effective health, just leave it as a negatron and build something with health (warmogs hi) instead of itemizing toward an item that is very expensive for the stats (2.715k for 375 health, 50 mr, spell block which I don't think it going to be useful)
I always feel stupid building BV and having 2.5k health instead of just building warmogs and having 3.5k and building a negatron later. I don't like to stack too much MR anyway on melees since you get so much with runes+base stats+mercs and AP's are getting void staffs shortly. Just 1 item is usually fine and I find that's usually wits end. FoN if you really don't like pokes and have to be really tanky, but I find warmogs+fon is not enough damage, you need some damage items if not 2 first. (warmogs +atmas + fon works kinda).
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I'm just going to say the opposite:
BV is almost always the worst item you can build from a Negatron.
Most important exception: enemy Blitzcrank.
BV is not very efficient. The spellshield is only good if it blocks a CC or a huge nuke. QSS can clear all CC and more, and it doesn't get popped by random AoE spells. About the huge nuke: Your enemy will almost always be able to send a minor nuker your way before he drops the huge nuke. In theory this is harder if you are a ranged champ, but in practice some melee will jump on you and accidentally break the BV anyways. If you are a melee champ, chances are that your enemies won't even have to care about your BV: It will be gone long before the first major spell hits you.
Blitzcrank is the big exception because you can't QSS his grab and you typically die if you get grabbed.
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I disagree with both FoN and BV, neither provide anything xin really wants beyond MR, and just getting the plain negatron covers that.
heck, getting wit's + boots covers his MR needs really. wits too strong like that. only ever need nega if they went overboard with magic dmg. Xin has enough natural from his ult that a core of wriggles/wits/mercury + runes gets him all the resists you really want to build, only getting more if you need to counter something that got fed.
Also, black cleaver as a core damage item is very risky. if you get fed, it makes you nigh unstoppable, but if you aren't at least comfortably ahead, the cost and the lack of defensive stats makes you too squishy. one stun and done. your build literally has zero hp items aside from a late randuins, and that's seems like it's going to be absolutely horrendous on a melee champion.
imo phage is something i find incredibly good. it builds into either mallet for more tank, or trinity for more carry raping. either way it provides a little more hp than none.
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On July 25 2011 22:43 57 Corvette wrote:
Well, the standard blue route ends at level 4 (Not sure of the timing on this, 4 mins or around there?), and you are on low hitpoints so you need to go back to base before ganking.
This jungle route ends at level 6 at around 7ish mins, and nearly at full health, allowing for ganking right away. It is also safer, as the only time you are really low on hitpoints is after the first wraith/wolves camp.
You can use the Blue route, I just prefer the level 6 route.
The whole point of using a jungler like Xin is for his ridiculously strong, easily repeatable early ganks. He's perfectly capable of exiting the jungle at level 4 with full health before 4:00 without a leash at blue. You can even tack on an extra 30 seconds to recall and buy boots before Red if it seems necessary or health is an issue (but it shouldn't be).
The level 6 route you're using only works in ideal situations where you aren't counter-jungled and your lanes can thrive without jungle support for five minutes. It's not enough for them to survive, they need to be able to farm as well.
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The point of starting small gols with xin is you can gank at level 2 and probably pick up a free kill. After that the fast 6 route has benefits in that you can break off any time in order to gank, where blue first is generally a bit more regimented in nature.
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On July 26 2011 02:30 Two_DoWn wrote:
The point of starting small gols with xin is you can gank at level 2 and probably pick up a free kill. After that the fast 6 route has benefits in that you can break off any time in order to gank, where blue first is generally a bit more regimented in nature.
not entirely. starting small gols also lets you start at 1:40 rather than 1:55 so it tends to lead to slightly faster clears in you're not CD/Mana dependent.
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You can kill the big wolf while waiting for blue and leave the smaller wolves for later. Just because you're killing blue buff ASAP doesn't mean you need to sit on your hands waiting for it to spawn.
Similarly, no experienced jungler should be particularly hung up about breaking off from a straight clear to take advantage of a ganking opportunity/save a lane. That should only be a problem when using a jungler whose health dips low throughout the route (e.g. not Xin).
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Right but killing big wolf -> blue -> full clear tends to leave you lower HP throughout than doing a Small Gols -> wraiths -> wolves -> blue path. Anyway, neither here nor there, I'll post a miniguide on my jungle Xin tonight when I have a bigger chunk of time.
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On July 26 2011 01:13 Sponkz wrote:
Nobody going youmoo's on him anymore?
I used to go Ghostblade, but honestly I feel there are better items on Xin. My previous build was Wriggles, ghostblade, mercs, BC, Randuins FoN, but most of the times my team lost before I finished my BC.
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Xin is a very strong lvl 2 ganker (as strong as lvl2 ganks can be), I'd say on par with red buff shaco. When I'm plaing him, I'm trying to put as much pressure on the enemy team as possible.
I've also run teleport instead of flash/ghost with some success. The reasoning is that you already have a gap closer/slow and having TP gives you even more map presence.
My route in 90% of the games is golems -> gank -> wraiths -> wolves -> base. Start with Q, lvl2 E, that's when you gank while the lane is still lvl1. I'd say 70% of the time I was able to do some damage and pop the enemy's escape summoner, getting my lane an advantage. 20% of the time I got FB. And 10% I died, shit happens.
This works much better if you're purple, since you're ganking 2v1 instead of 3v2. Bot lane it's worth waiting for support who helps the jungler with blue, wards dragon and then goes through the river. I often start longsword + pot if I'm purple to maximize the gank, otherwise vamp scepter is best.
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I open dblade in the jungle cause I'm a boss.
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I eagerly await your jungle xin guide later tonight. I have many curiosities to be sated.
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On July 26 2011 06:17 Mogwai wrote:
I open dblade in the jungle cause I'm a boss.
I definitely would appreciate to hear about your setup and path. I wanted to open DBlade too so I can gank harder while my lanes all fail, but my first attempt at it didn't turn out too well.
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streaming it right now, lol, sorry forgot to write it up when I got home.
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Do you mind posting your guide still mogwai?
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oh yea, sry
basically, as I see it, Xin is like halfway between Shaco and and Warwick. he has an obscenely high sustainability in the jungle like Warwick, but he also has beastly low level ganks like Shaco. I tend to lean more on the Shaco-esque gank heavy style of jungling with Xin because I think LoL is won more by winning lanes than it is by farming jungle, so even if you set yourself back in the jungle, if you set a lane up to succeed, I find that that leads to victory more often than farming up in the jungle for the midgame. In light of this, I run a 21/0/9 setup with my AD jungle page (same as the one in my 21/0/9 Jungle Jarman guide) and I open DORAN'S BLADE. The reasoning here is that the 10 AD lets you clear jungle camps ASAP and gives you considerably better burst on ganks, but having a dblade's HP and Lifesteal also keeps you higher HP than opening longsword (also viable). Also, at no point in time are those stats wasted on Xin, so while it does delay my wriggles to open dblade, I never feel like I've wasted money because it's an efficient item giving me stats that I want.
Anyway, so I open dblade and then set up shop at a Small Gol spawn with Q first. A leash is nice, but not necessary. Using smite, you should clear the camp prior to 2:00 even without a leash, which will let you grab your E and go for a level 2 gank on whatever lane seems appropriate. If you have a strong bot lane like Taric + Cait or something, you can open blue small gols -> level 2 gank bot and basically get a free kill every single time due to the crazy damage and CC of all those chars together. If your bot lane won't be able to support you that well, then fuck them and gank a solo to beat the bag out of someone and force their flash. You should literally always be able to force a flash so long as you don't get CVed and you'll frequently get 1st blood if you have a good leash and can camp the top river brush and the opponent runs up river from leashing blue. You can also go with top lane down to the opposing blue and gank their jungler there. The point is that Xin's level 2 is CRAZY strong so you rush your level 2 and use it to immediately boss someone up and buy an advantage for one of your lanes or dick over their jungler. After this, assuming you didn't get super low, you clear wraiths (smite the big one, it should be up, but you can still kill them without too much trouble without your smite) and then wolves, then back for your boots and a vamp scepter if you got a kill, otherwise grab an hp pot or 2 to pad your HP. With your boots up, go grab red. Blue's cool and all, but Xin's mana costs are basically non-existant (don't use E in the jungle, that's his only skill that costs mana) and again, we're using our strong early levels to fuck people up, so now you want your red. Keep track of who has their flashes up and gank the lanes without them at this point. Xin with red hitting someone without flash in the middle of a lane is basically a kill every single time. From here, grab your wriggles -> wit's end -> some HP (spirit visage + phage vs. double AP teams, Funfire or Mallet vs. AP + Tanky DPS teams) -> Triforce + Tanking items. It's commonly thought that Xin needs AD, but I'm a really firm believer in building him like WW and favoring utility and AS on my offensive items. The reason here is that his kit lets him just constantly CC people and output strong damage through abilities rather than needing to lean on balls out items like BC and Ghostblade. Besides, you're a jungling ganker, not a carry, make yourself a useful meatshield for the real carries.
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Hey Mogwai - this is just to let you know that your post is being read and appreciated.
OP should put this post inside a spoiler.
Thanks
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On July 26 2011 02:17 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2011 22:43 57 Corvette wrote:
Well, the standard blue route ends at level 4 (Not sure of the timing on this, 4 mins or around there?), and you are on low hitpoints so you need to go back to base before ganking.
This jungle route ends at level 6 at around 7ish mins, and nearly at full health, allowing for ganking right away. It is also safer, as the only time you are really low on hitpoints is after the first wraith/wolves camp.
You can use the Blue route, I just prefer the level 6 route. The whole point of using a jungler like Xin is for his ridiculously strong, easily repeatable early ganks. He's perfectly capable of exiting the jungle at level 4 with full health before 4:00 without a leash at blue. You can even tack on an extra 30 seconds to recall and buy boots before Red if it seems necessary or health is an issue (but it shouldn't be). The level 6 route you're using only works in ideal situations where you aren't counter-jungled and your lanes can thrive without jungle support for five minutes. It's not enough for them to survive, they need to be able to farm as well.
My experience starting at blue is not the case. You using AS runes and all 5 pots?
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mogwai why not just open longsword, lot more effective hp
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100 health is worth a lot of junglers. Sucks to sometimes be afraid to gank mid because you can get 1 combo'd.
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EPT
