EPTIt would lead to slower jungling without bluebuff because of the mana cost, but if you have the mana to use it in the jungle you kill stuff pretty much at the same speed.
But I don't play Xin, so this is mainly from looking at numbers.
[Champion] Xin Zhao - Page 4
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crate
United States2474 Posts
It would lead to slower jungling without bluebuff because of the mana cost, but if you have the mana to use it in the jungle you kill stuff pretty much at the same speed. But I don't play Xin, so this is mainly from looking at numbers. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On August 13 2011 03:55 crate wrote: E definitely scales better from levels than Q does, since in the best case you're getting less than one extra autoattack's worth of damage from leveling Q instead of E (25 extra damage by going level 5 Q instead of level 5 E while keeping the other skill at level 1 ... even with arpen runes instead of mpen and attacking a champ the difference certainly won't be more than about 50-60 damage). If the extra slow lets either you or your laner land an extra hit you've already done more damage by leveling E, and you get a lower cooldown on it to boot so it's not out of the question that you get a second slow from it either. It would lead to slower jungling without bluebuff because of the mana cost, but if you have the mana to use it in the jungle you kill stuff pretty much at the same speed. But I don't play Xin, so this is mainly from looking at numbers. what? you're like, thinking too hard about the math and just doing it wrong Each level of Q is +15 damage/hit x 3 hits = +45 damage Each level of E is +40 damage Leveling Q is more damage, and it's on a shorter CD until level 5 E (at which point they're equal) so just looking strictly at damage, Q is superior. But there is definitely merit to increasing that slow and decreasing that CD for ganking hard so E makes some sense, but I think my proposed QEWQQREEEER is a better way to go about it to avoid hurting your early jungling speed. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
edit: I suppose there's also a window where you've gotten 10 or 11 seconds of cooldowns between actual time ticking and your W where you'd have Q off cooldown again but not E but I'm not sure that happens often enough to be notable, especially since E goes on cooldown immediately but Q won't start ticking until you've used all three hits. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
1) E feels like it costs SO MUCH MANA. Didn't realize it for a while. 2) Jungle isn't bad. Really nice sustain, ganks are actually pretty hilarious with charge/slow/burst/knockup. 3) What is my role late game? I feel like I can still burst carries alright, but do I play like an assassin or a tanky dps? Charge in right off the bat, or wait for the action to subside and clean up? 4) When laning, is there any alternative to Wriggle's? The sustain and damage is nice, but I feel like with his passive, I could get away with a DBlade or two and just play aggressively instead. 5) Am I not supposed to have an escape besides Flash? I'm used to Riven/Graves/Ezreal where I can just gtfo with an ability, but with Xin I feel like once I engage, I'm stuck there until one of us dies or they run away. 6) Other items that aren't part of this build? I think he'd work well with Trinity or FMallet, but I'm not sure and don't want to hold back the team while trying it. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
3) Usually assassin. 4) Afaik you don't need Wriggle's on Xin in lane, at least not against all enemies. But you probably have to adapt. 5) BE A MAN. 6) Both are decent in the right situations and with the right playstyle. BE A MAN. | ||
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:12 Requizen wrote: Just picked up Xin because I had the IP and I died laughing at the Be A Man video like 8 times. I got some comments/questions. 1) E feels like it costs SO MUCH MANA. Didn't realize it for a while. 2) Jungle isn't bad. Really nice sustain, ganks are actually pretty hilarious with charge/slow/burst/knockup. 3) What is my role late game? I feel like I can still burst carries alright, but do I play like an assassin or a tanky dps? Charge in right off the bat, or wait for the action to subside and clean up? 4) When laning, is there any alternative to Wriggle's? The sustain and damage is nice, but I feel like with his passive, I could get away with a DBlade or two and just play aggressively instead. 5) Am I not supposed to have an escape besides Flash? I'm used to Riven/Graves/Ezreal where I can just gtfo with an ability, but with Xin I feel like once I engage, I'm stuck there until one of us dies or they run away. 6) Other items that aren't part of this build? I think he'd work well with Trinity or FMallet, but I'm not sure and don't want to hold back the team while trying it. 1. It does cost a lot of mana. You want to try to avoid using it a ton during the jungle phase/early game. 2. The jungle is average if not slightly above. He is also one of the easier characters to pick up and jungle, because for the most part his jungle is safe (as in not getting low HP) 3. Imo, you should be more of a tanky dps lategame. Riot tried to design him as an assassin, but compared to other assassins (kat,akali), he just doesn't compare burst-wise. Most of the damage will come from the ult and auto attacks, so you want to be in the middle of the fight, and thats not where an assassin should be. If you have a tank initiate, charge in right after him and ult. If not, you can charge in and initate, but don't expect to live 100% of the time. 4. I suppose Dblades could work, it more or less comes down to personal preference. I like the wriggles for the armour, lifesteal and free wards, but if you are up against an easy lane i don't see a huge problem in building dorans blades and then going straight to BC. 5. No, unless you can somehow charge to an enemy minion that is on your path. If he had an escape he would be extremely op. 6. The items i listed aren't the only viable items. Triforce or Frozen mallet/mogs are also viable, depends on personal tastes. Experiment for yourself in normals or co-op if you are unconfident. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
He seems really strong in the right hands, able to 1v1 a lot of champs easily and works pretty well in teamfights as well. Why isn't he used a lot in competitive play? His only real counter seems to be Exhaust or a similar ability, he feels like he could be really useful in a lot of comps. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:29 Requizen wrote: Nice, quick reply, thanks! He seems really strong in the right hands, able to 1v1 a lot of champs easily and works pretty well in teamfights as well. Why isn't he used a lot in competitive play? His only real counter seems to be Exhaust or a similar ability, he feels like he could be really useful in a lot of comps. Comparatively poor control as a jungler (no escapes/ranged CC so counterjungling is extremely dangerous), requires a lot of farm to be useful, while not having a kit suited to farming super fast, so he requires successful ganks that turn into kills to get rolling. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:32 TheYango wrote: Comparatively poor control as a jungler (no escapes/ranged CC so counterjungling is extremely dangerous), requires a lot of farm to be useful, while not having a kit suited to farming super fast, so he requires successful ganks that turn into kills to get rolling. The odd thing is, he reminds me a lot of Akali, who is played a lot at high levels, but suffers from requiring farm and no real escape (bubble is really iffy at times). I suppose she has higher burst, but she doesn't have the CC knockup or attack speed boost. Whatever, I think he's pretty fun, so I'll keep playing him for a while. Who's a good duo queue partner for Xin? Probably a bursty mage type, I'd think, so I guess I'll get a friend to play Annie or something. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:29 Requizen wrote: Nice, quick reply, thanks! He seems really strong in the right hands, able to 1v1 a lot of champs easily and works pretty well in teamfights as well. Why isn't he used a lot in competitive play? His only real counter seems to be Exhaust or a similar ability, he feels like he could be really useful in a lot of comps. Partly because he is countered extremely hard by Exhaust + focus fire. Partly because tournament level teamfights usually involve lots of poking and disengaging. Xin engages and does not retreat. It's a hard call to make: Will we win the fight? There is no out for Xin if you make a bad call. | ||
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:37 spinesheath wrote: Partly because he is countered extremely hard by Exhaust + focus fire. Partly because tournament level teamfights usually involve lots of poking and disengaging. Xin engages and does not retreat. It's a hard call to make: Will we win the fight? There is no out for Xin if you make a bad call. A Demacian never retreats! Also, about the comparison to Akali, there are a few main things that set them apart. The most obvious is Akali uses energy, so doesn't go oom. Akali is more snowball-y because imo it is easier to snowball with AP than it is with AD. Akali has ranged harrass, Xin doesn't. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23442 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:37 spinesheath wrote: Partly because he is countered extremely hard by Exhaust + focus fire. Partly because tournament level teamfights usually involve lots of poking and disengaging. Xin engages and does not retreat. It's a hard call to make: Will we win the fight? There is no out for Xin if you make a bad call. This is relevant. When I was duoing with a low elo guy back in season 1 I had to carry really, really hard on xin and I had to kept jumping in and running away again and I realized irelia is far, far better suited for that, Nocturne basically does his job better and has more burst damage due to more front loaded damage on his skills. | ||
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rwrzr
United States1980 Posts
On November 03 2011 02:33 koreasilver wrote: Akali in general just seems to be trickier to deal with than Xin Zhao. The biggest problem I have with Xin is that he is probably the most one-dimensional champ in the whole game. Consequently, dealing with him also is a very one-dimensional affair. Best description of Xin Zhao. Either he closes the gap and kills your OR he doesn't and you kill him. I'd like to see some kind of change to bring him back from lolnoobxin to WINZHAO! Ideas: Have charge be a soft cleanse with some slow reduction/immunity? Give his R some disable component (Silence or Slow)? Give him a new passive and give the heal passive as an addition to another one of his skills. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
The only real way I could see them buffing his late game is by changing his scaling. Make E scale with AD, and/or make R's health % damage scale with AD similar to Children of the Grave. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23442 Posts
He's not so one-dimensional as you think but he definitely has that side to him. The cooldown reduction from W on your E lets you do cool things but yeah he is built a bit bland. | ||
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