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On September 30 2013 02:59 NeoIllusions wrote:The page I use for Jax this week is Marks: AD Seals: Flat Armor Glyphs: Scaling MR Quints: 1 AD, 2 Life Steal Masteries: 9/21/0 site is bugged. Obviously finish Block then Honor Guard.Edit: tyty
I tend to prefer AD quints and AS marks, why do you want early sustain?
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Okay, the Neo build. BotRK vs. Gunblade damage comparisons.
Q: 326 vs. 385
W: 646 vs. 707
E: 377 vs. 398
R: 241 vs. 286.5
Bonus resists: 68+51 vs. 74+64
DPS: 508phys 238 mag (746) vs. 488phys 258.5mag (746.5)
DPS to towers: 471 vs. 453
Burst combo: 15%HP + 1580phys + 439mag (2019) vs. 1661phys + 711.5mag (2372.5)
Sustain per second: 77 vs. 122
Burst sustain: 15%HP + 96 vs. 331
All my blegh math notes in the spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +
Trinity + BotRK + Visage
ASPD: 1.47
AD: 117.05 +77.8
AP: 30
Crit: 10%
CDR: 23%
Damages:
Q: 326 phys
W: 448 phys + 198 mag
E: 377 phys max
R: 241 mag
Ult bonus resists: 68 Armor, 51 MR
DPS: 315.07 (AA's) + 192.82+85.14 (W) + 152.63 (ult) = 508 + BotRK passive phys, 238 mag
DPS to towers: 471
Burst combo (Q+E+auto+W+active+Rauto) = 15% HP + 1580 + 3x BotRK passive procs phys, 439 mag
Expected Sustain:
Per second: 77
During burst combo: 15% HP + 122
Trinity + Gunblade
ASPD: 1.21
AD: 117.05 +97.8
AP: 95
Crit: 10%
CDR: 23%
Damages:
Q: 385
W: 470 phys + 237 mag
E: 398 phys max
R: 286.5 mag
Ult bonus resists: 74 Armor, 64 MR
Gunblade active: 188
DPS: 285.96 (AAs) + 202.28+101.91 (W) + 156.62 (ult) = 488 phys + 258.5 mag
DPS to towers: 453
Burst combo (Q+E+auto+W+active+Rauto) = 1661 phys, 711.5 mag
Expected Sustain:
Per second: 114
During burst combo: 359
Takeaways:
The CDR benefits Gunblade over BotRK, but only a little bit. Probably not enough. Even 40% CDR probably not enough.
I do think your defensive masteries could maybe be optimized a little bit better Neo. 1 point Legendary Armor and only 2 points Juggernaut possibly a tiny bit better depending on itemization. We're talking very small differences though.
Edit: Didn't account for LS quints. Fixed.
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United States37500 Posts
On September 30 2013 03:40 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 02:59 NeoIllusions wrote:The page I use for Jax this week is Marks: AD Seals: Flat Armor Glyphs: Scaling MR Quints: 1 AD, 2 Life Steal Masteries: 9/21/0 site is bugged. Obviously finish Block then Honor Guard.Edit: tyty I tend to prefer AD quints and AS marks, why do you want early sustain?
It's my ADC page. I don't have a Jax one yet. 
Edit: I realize it's very suboptimal.
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I'm confused I thought LS quints were good because you don't have to squeeze in a vamp scepter until after triforce is complete? Thats why I use them.
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AS runes would favor BotRK over Gunblade, I think.
3% attackspeed in masteries would probably increase your DPS more than 3% CDR too, for what it's worth.
I think the lesson learned from all this is that unless the enemy team is all armor, BotRK is just straight up better.
It's sad considering the state of Gunblade, since Jax is basically the poster boy champion for the item.
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don't people still make it on Akali? thats one champion
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Even Akali arguably prefers Spectral Wraith because it costs 1300g less and gives similar sustain.
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Yeah I end up liking it because there are a bunch of match-ups where you can get outsustained or out-harassed early on (Shen, Kennen, hell even Darius because of his damn passive and range on Q) so the LS quints let me squeeze some more health to stay in lane and farm till I hit 6 and start fighting.
Not sure if AS/AD beats AD/AD though.
Akali abuses the Gunblade's Reload passive sooo hard it's friggin' scary when she gets rolling with it. Who cares about the active having a cooldown when you get it back up for every trade.
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So I'm looking at your calculations, and if I'm reading them correctly they completely ignore his passive and BotRK's passive. Granted those aren't especially relevant to a burst combo, but ignoring them completely skews things toward the Gunblade side and makes it not very representative of reality.
I did some quick calculations about attack speed the other night. This is his attack speed with passive stacks, starting at 0 stacks (assuming he's level 18, no masteries or runes for simplicity's sake):
with Triforce+BotRK = 1.47, 1.56, 1.65, 1.74, 1.83, 1.92, 2.01
with Triforce+Gunblade = 1.21, 1.30, 1.40, 1.49, 1.58, 1.66, 1.75
Which results in an attack every x seconds (see below):
Triforce+BotRK= 0.68, 0.64, 0.60, 0.57, 0.55, 0.52, 0.50
Triforce+Gunblade= 0.83, 0.77, 0.71, 0.67, 0.63, 0.60, 0.57
So the total time to get max stacks of his passive is ~3.38 seconds with Botrk+Trifoce, ~3.95 seconds with Triforce+Gunblade (where first attack is t=0, so it is ignored). If you ignore t=1 too (because of empower reset), ~2.74 seconds vs ~3.18 seconds.
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You're right I'm ignoring the passive, but that actually favors Gunblade, since Gunblade does more damage per hit and the damage scales multiplicatively with attack speed.
At max stacks with the Neo build, this is the total DPS numbers we're looking at:
861 vs. 927
That's actually a bigger difference than I was expecting. Regardless, at 2.01 attackspeed, the BotRK passive should be making up for that lost DPS. It would be until the target drops below 700 HP.
Another thing I'm ignoring is the 8% armor pen vs. the zero magic pen in the build, which additionally favors BotRK.
Realistically this is the way we can look at these two items.
The DPS is fairly similar. The added BotRK passive DPS and the added Gunblade sustain somewhat cancel each other out. The burst damage is fairly similar. The costs are fairly similar.
But the BotRK active and utility is just much higher. It's really the active where Gunblade fails, 188 damage is pretty bleh.
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Can someone explain the TF straight to Blade to me? I understand getting cutlass for the awesome sustain, but I always feel far too squishy.
+ Show Spoiler + by the way SKT1 vs. Sword G1 is how Jax v. Shen would go in a just world
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You do it if you can afford it. If you're behind you'll never get it in time so you'd rather build defense after your triforce.
It's the timing: if you're farmed/fed enough, your ult should let you survive to the initial burst as long as
a) you don't tank the enemy's initial burst with your face
b) your team has the ability to follow-up on your dive if you man up
so you can just build some more offense "for the time being" and it makes you kill shit so fast that the enemy team is more concerned about getting the hell away from you than properly kiting you when you dropped them to 15% in 4 hits.
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On September 30 2013 12:58 cLutZ wrote:Can someone explain the TF straight to Blade to me? I understand getting cutlass for the awesome sustain, but I always feel far too squishy. + Show Spoiler + by the way SKT1 vs. Sword G1 is how Jax v. Shen would go in a just world
Nothing says you're obligated to finish off the BotRK. It's fairly common to build tanky stuff if you need it, a chain vest/negatron can do wonders to help you survive in lane.
But if you're doing well, you just straight up kill the enemy laner, so you don't really need more tanky stats. If you can finish off Triforce/BotRK before big team fights begin, you're in pretty good shape to be a major force in them.
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On September 30 2013 16:59 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 12:58 cLutZ wrote:Can someone explain the TF straight to Blade to me? I understand getting cutlass for the awesome sustain, but I always feel far too squishy. + Show Spoiler + by the way SKT1 vs. Sword G1 is how Jax v. Shen would go in a just world Nothing says you're obligated to finish off the BotRK. It's fairly common to build tanky stuff if you need it, a chain vest/negatron can do wonders to help you survive in lane. But if you're doing well, you just straight up kill the enemy laner, so you don't really need more tanky stats. If you can finish off Triforce/BotRK before big team fights begin, you're in pretty good shape to be a major force in them.
Even if I'm punking my lane opponent (which is common as Jax), I feel like much less of a teamfight monster if Im TF+Blade instead of like TF + Visage/Randuins/GA
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United States37500 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:00 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 16:59 zer0das wrote:On September 30 2013 12:58 cLutZ wrote:Can someone explain the TF straight to Blade to me? I understand getting cutlass for the awesome sustain, but I always feel far too squishy. + Show Spoiler + by the way SKT1 vs. Sword G1 is how Jax v. Shen would go in a just world Nothing says you're obligated to finish off the BotRK. It's fairly common to build tanky stuff if you need it, a chain vest/negatron can do wonders to help you survive in lane. But if you're doing well, you just straight up kill the enemy laner, so you don't really need more tanky stats. If you can finish off Triforce/BotRK before big team fights begin, you're in pretty good shape to be a major force in them. Even if I'm punking my lane opponent (which is common as Jax), I feel like much less of a teamfight monster if Im TF+Blade instead of like TF + Visage/Randuins/GA
Well, that goes hand-in-hand with buying survivability, l0l. Buying Blade is all about sticking potential, making it easier for you to assassinate someone.
There's plenty of benefits from Omen/Visage but that really requires your enemy to stand there and fite you.
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On October 01 2013 04:08 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:00 cLutZ wrote:On September 30 2013 16:59 zer0das wrote:On September 30 2013 12:58 cLutZ wrote:Can someone explain the TF straight to Blade to me? I understand getting cutlass for the awesome sustain, but I always feel far too squishy. + Show Spoiler + by the way SKT1 vs. Sword G1 is how Jax v. Shen would go in a just world Nothing says you're obligated to finish off the BotRK. It's fairly common to build tanky stuff if you need it, a chain vest/negatron can do wonders to help you survive in lane. But if you're doing well, you just straight up kill the enemy laner, so you don't really need more tanky stats. If you can finish off Triforce/BotRK before big team fights begin, you're in pretty good shape to be a major force in them. Even if I'm punking my lane opponent (which is common as Jax), I feel like much less of a teamfight monster if Im TF+Blade instead of like TF + Visage/Randuins/GA Well, that goes hand-in-hand with buying survivability, l0l. Buying Blade is all about sticking potential, making it easier for you to assassinate someone. There's plenty of benefits from Omen/Visage but that really requires your enemy to stand there and fite you.
No one ever fights Jax. Jax is scary.
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Darius and Riven can. >_> Damn pricks.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:21 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 04:08 NeoIllusions wrote:On October 01 2013 04:00 cLutZ wrote:On September 30 2013 16:59 zer0das wrote:On September 30 2013 12:58 cLutZ wrote:Can someone explain the TF straight to Blade to me? I understand getting cutlass for the awesome sustain, but I always feel far too squishy. + Show Spoiler + by the way SKT1 vs. Sword G1 is how Jax v. Shen would go in a just world Nothing says you're obligated to finish off the BotRK. It's fairly common to build tanky stuff if you need it, a chain vest/negatron can do wonders to help you survive in lane. But if you're doing well, you just straight up kill the enemy laner, so you don't really need more tanky stats. If you can finish off Triforce/BotRK before big team fights begin, you're in pretty good shape to be a major force in them. Even if I'm punking my lane opponent (which is common as Jax), I feel like much less of a teamfight monster if Im TF+Blade instead of like TF + Visage/Randuins/GA Well, that goes hand-in-hand with buying survivability, l0l. Buying Blade is all about sticking potential, making it easier for you to assassinate someone. There's plenty of benefits from Omen/Visage but that really requires your enemy to stand there and fite you. No one ever fights Jax. Jax is scary.
Jax vs Darius is pretty damn fun imo.
It's a motherfucking gladiator fight. May the best win.
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You saying this as the Jax, or the Darius player?
You're playing so many pricks I feel compelled to check.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 01 2013 05:18 Alaric wrote:
You saying this as the Jax, or the Darius player?
You're playing so many pricks I feel compelled to check.
god damn, why does everyone hate my champ pool. :< Alaric plz.
I actually play both Jax and Darius.
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EPT
