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[Champion] Jax - Page 45

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Meatpuppet
Profile Joined January 2011
United States86 Posts
September 29 2013 12:45 GMT
#881
Spellvamp is pretty good from hextech but after building it now and again to test it out what I found was you want lifesteal only in lane really, the spellvamp is nice if you finish the item after laning is done but I don't think it's worth it compared to the active on the BotRK. Stealing movement speed and stealing hp at the same time is so much more deceptive and adds so much more survivablity when you are being focused.

All that spell vamp does nothing when you are getting focus fired, but if you are low hp and you manage to use your active on a shen that just ult'd in to the fight at full hp, not only can you get out of the fray and save your own life, you can also jump back in on your next round of cooldowns cause the hp you stole from shen allows you to get right back in there. If you think you can solo carry the game because you are that fed and the other team might struggle to kill you cause they don't have enough damage, then sure, I think hextech might be worth it then over BotRK, but that's the only time I would build it.
I am the walrus
Complete
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1864 Posts
September 29 2013 13:50 GMT
#882
I think BoTRK is a better split pushing item as well, which is an important tool for Jax to have.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
September 29 2013 14:12 GMT
#883
I think gunblade is better when you're running around trying to win the game alone, because the spell vamp gives you so much 1v2/1v3 potential if you hug blue buff.
hi
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 15:23:36
September 29 2013 15:06 GMT
#884
Some math for you guys:

Jax with BotRK vs. Gunblade. Assuming he has a Trinity. Not going to involve runes/masteries because I don't know how the fuck to build Jax. Assuming level 18. Ignoring the BotRK passive because math for that is poops.

Trinity + BotRK
+ Show Spoiler +
ASPD: 1.47
AD: 117.05 +55
AP: 30

Damages:
Q: 303
W: 621 (counting Trinity proc)
E: 330 max
R: 241
Ult bonus resists: 61.5 Armor, 51 MR
DPS: 278.2 (AA's) + 207.11 (W) + 144.6 (ult) = 630 + BotRK passive
DPS to towers: 309
Burst combo (Q+E+auto+W+active+Rauto) = 15% HP + 1873 + 3x BotRK passive procs

Expected Sustain:
Per second: 51
During burst combo: 15% HP + 85


Trinity + Gunblade
+ Show Spoiler +
ASPD: 1.21
AD: 117.05 +75
AP: 95

Damages:
Q: 362
W: 682 (counting Trinity proc)
E: 375 max
R: 286.5
Ult bonus resists: 67.5 Armor, 64 MR
Gunblade active: 188
DPS: 255.61 (AAs) + 227.45 (W) + 147.07 (ult) = 630
DPS to towers: 295
Burst combo (Q+E+auto+W+active+Rauto) = 2316

Expected Sustain:
Per second: 68
During burst combo: 318


Some takeaways.

1 - DPS is identical not including BotRK passive, so DPS with BotRK passive is better.

2 - Burst combo damage is about equal when the target has about 2800 HP. Late game carries are typically in the 2500-2750 range, so I'd say burst damage is very similar.

3 - Gunblade Jax sustains a whopping extra 17 HP per second while autoing. Burst heal from BotRK Jax is better on a target with at least 1500 HP.

4 - BotRK has more utility. Better slow, more tower DPS. Also costs less.


One disclaimer to note is that LoL wiki is contradictory. The spellvamp page says Empower doesn't benefit from spellvamp (because it's an AA reset), while the Jax page says it does. If it does, Jax's sustain per second goes up another 30, so that's kind of a big deal.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 29 2013 15:22 GMT
#885
Another interesting notable.

Assuming he never stops attacking, Jax reduces the Gunblade active cooldown by approximately 6.12 seconds per second of combat. This means in order to use the active twice in a fight, Jax has to be constantly attacking for about 10 seconds. With the item cooldown reduction mastery in Utility this is more like 7.5 seconds of attacking.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
September 29 2013 15:23 GMT
#886
Empower does work with spellvamp, unless it was changed sinced the last time I used Gunblade Jax, but for all I remember no patch notes mentioned something like that.

The annoying part with Jax and spellvamp and stuff is when you have to take into account AS, CDR (because of Empower's reset), AP to try and get an average frequency of R procs. @_@
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 16:03:30
September 29 2013 15:50 GMT
#887
Until I tried out sheen I thought it was a dumb item. I got far more procs of sheen and fewer autos than I expected. Mathcraft has its limits.

All I know is I hated AP Jax when I tried it against bots so I just avoided AP items. About the only one that seems somewhat interesting is Nashors and that's not because of the AP but rather for the aspd,cdr,and on hit.

The main reason for having AP is to do burst. AD/on hit does more damage in a sustained fight and Jax isn't a burst damage champion unless he's 3 levels + 2 items up on an enemy squishy with 70% life and no flash.

Jax can't just jump in to a fight and then jump back out. You're sitting on a 10-6 second cooldown on your Triforce, Gunblade. Good luck surviving 10 seconds of abuse from an enemy team with your 20% spell vamp.

Most people say spell vamp and life steal are combat stats. They are, but they're such shitty combat stats that I wonder if any of you have even done the math. If you look at the above, you're healing 60-70 life for 700+ damage. There's only a few champions that can treat sustain as a combat stat. Fiddle Aatrox and Sion come to mind. Lifesteal and spell vamp are sustain stats. If you're dueling an AD carry they might decide whether you win the duel, but having a ruby crystal would decide it even better.


Finally, Jax is meant to duel and pick off people in small fights. He's often defined as a melee carry. His job isn't to sustain himself while hitting supports. It's to be able to duel and kill people in a string of 1v1s. A little bit more damage would be better than some sustain against ranged carries too because the faster they die, the less they can kite you.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
September 29 2013 16:18 GMT
#888
Thanks for the mathcraft, Ketara. It's appreciated.

For the record, I played Jax with Gunblade two days ago and with BotRK yesterday. The latter did feel stronger. I vastly undervalued the AS from BotRK while overrated the spell vamp from Gunblade. Personal opinion.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 16:25:08
September 29 2013 16:23 GMT
#889
If Gunblade gave 15% lifesteal I think the sustain would be a lot different. Lifesteal is just better per point than Spell Vamp is.

Or if the Gunblade active did as much damage as the BotRK active. Or if the recharge passive on it was a tad stronger so using it twice in a fight was more guaranteed.

Gunblade just a crappy not cost efficient item, imo.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 29 2013 16:39 GMT
#890
I loves the doublepost.

One possible saving grace for Gunblade is that while BotRK only adds physical damage, Gunblade adds more magic damage than it adds physical damage.

Since the overall DPS/burst damage is very similar, in a situation where you have like, AD mid and AD jungler and the enemy team is exclusively building armor, Gunblade may be better.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 17:25:16
September 29 2013 17:22 GMT
#891
The biggest factor is the Empower heal from spellvamp. Combined with blue buff, you have alot more sustain, than from lifesteal alone. You also gotta remember that every 3rd hit also grants sustain through spell-vamp, but it only really works when you're ahead and need to stay alive, because everybody is diving onto you.


EDIT: It makes me wonder, if you could play gunblade/zephyr Jax and hug blue for maximum sustain.
hi
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 17:53:08
September 29 2013 17:51 GMT
#892
Empower+R spellvamp was calculated into my maths post.

After doing a quick test it appears that spellvamp works with Empower, but only on the added magic damage.

So, sustain per second with the two builds should be
Trinity+BotRK: 51
Trinity+Gunblade: 86

It's also worth noting that my posted math involved 0 CDR. I don't know what other items you guys are building.

More CDR favors gunblade.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
September 29 2013 17:54 GMT
#893
Account for Visage?
It's the most standard MR item to get for Top Lane nowadays.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 29 2013 17:55 GMT
#894
If you can give me a rune/mastery setup and a full build setup I'll do the pidgeon math again, cuz' I love you Neo~
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 18:00:02
September 29 2013 17:59 GMT
#895
The page I use for Jax this week is
Marks: AD
Seals: Flat Armor
Glyphs: Scaling MR
Quints: 1 AD, 2 Life Steal

Masteries: 9/21/0 site is bugged. Obviously finish Block then Honor Guard.

Edit: tyty
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 18:05:33
September 29 2013 18:04 GMT
#896
Items? Or do we just want Trinity+Bork/Gunblade+Visage? No Frozen Heart schenanigans? Any dorans mixed in there?
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
September 29 2013 18:06 GMT
#897
I don't think I'd ever get FH over Omen on Jax. I would open Shield/Blade against extremely tough lanes like Darius or Lee Sin. Otherwise, straight to Phage.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 29 2013 18:07 GMT
#898
Okay, I shall do this and watch Soniv stream, gimme a bit.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6213 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 18:26:53
September 29 2013 18:24 GMT
#899
I posted this in GD but I figure I'll put it here as well.
I think the best way to think of Jax with gunblade or botrk is to think of what BT vs IE for an AD carry like ashe is.

BT lets an AD sustain a retarded amount in lane and never die, to take short trades and come out ahead in the long run while IE dishes out substantially more damage in a prolonged fight with autoattacks.

Gunblade is much the same as a BT, sure, gunblade lets you sit in lane forever with retarded amounts of sustain but in a teamfight, you're gimping yourself by not going botrk.


Gunblade feels stronger if you're trying to push someone out of lane in a 1v1 because the gunblade active comes up so often but the second you're trying to kill someone, botrk is far superior.

Edit:: regarding itemization, I personally like Triforce Botrk -> boots2 -> SV/Randuins and then grab a GA as fifth before finishing the last item depending on the enemy team.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
September 29 2013 18:24 GMT
#900
Problem with FH (which I really like for the "your AD won't ever 1v1 me" aspect and it lets you cap CDR for more counterstrikes late game when its uptime is so much damage reduction) is the build-up can get pretty meh since Glacial only gives 10% CDR now, and Warden's isn't too good slot-wise until it's finished.
I tend to favour Randuin's because of the bonus resistances from his ult which makes him favour HP over resistances, and if I have 1k I can just buy belt over mail and get a bunch of EHP out of it.

Trinity gives some HP too but Trinity/SV/FH doesn't let you break the 3k HP mark for example.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
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