EPT[Champion] Jax - Page 48
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
Dyrus trolls in soloq with 21 util jax and stomps in easy lanes and people are trying to copy him all of a sudden? Just run something like 17/13, 21/9 or 9/21 | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On October 06 2013 13:35 Dusty wrote: 21 utility barely gives anything compared to the other trees Dyrus trolls in soloq with 21 util jax and stomps in easy lanes and people are trying to copy him all of a sudden? Just run something like 17/13, 21/9 or 9/21 Is it really a troll thing though? More recently almost everyone is doing these utility tree builds. I see guides all the time about utility tree and people talk about the Koreans doing it. I like to keep things simple. If I want to be tanky I go 9/21/0 or 0/30/0 if I can afford to If I want to do damage I go 21/9/0 I don't think the Utility tree is weak, I just don't think it has a solid focus. It'd be nice if it were called the "movement speed tree" or the "sustain tree" or the "jungling tree". Then maybe if I wanted to play a champion lacking mobility I could use it, or if I wanted to jungle Twitch I could go into the sustain tree. The utility tree is more like a "miscellaneous tree". | ||
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Lmui
Canada6218 Posts
I'm going to be taking heavy early harass (kennen, jayce, renek etc.) but expect to win after I hit level 6-8 min. 13 in defense - getting reduced enemy champion damage and auto damage. Generally 16/14/0 The enemy team is heavy on slows, cc and/or interrupts -> 21 defense ensuring I get tenacious. (Shen (Can duel him down without 21 offense later on np), Udyr, leona etc). I expect to eat CC and still need to push through to kill the AD/AP carry. 9/21/0 I can win lane somewhat easily and expect to be able to snowball/splitpush from there until victory (Nidalee, vlad etc). 21/9/0 I can't see myself getting away with 9/0/21, it may work but it's not anywhere near optimal after the first 10 minutes of the game. You lose out on so much tankiness in exchange for a lead that doesn't do much for you. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On October 06 2013 14:14 obesechicken13 wrote: Is it really a troll thing though? More recently almost everyone is doing these utility tree builds. I see guides all the time about utility tree and people talk about the Koreans doing it. I like to keep things simple. If I want to be tanky I go 9/21/0 or 0/30/0 if I can afford to If I want to do damage I go 21/9/0 I don't think the Utility tree is weak, I just don't think it has a solid focus. It'd be nice if it were called the "movement speed tree" or the "sustain tree" or the "jungling tree". Then maybe if I wanted to play a champion lacking mobility I could use it, or if I wanted to jungle Twitch I could go into the sustain tree. The utility tree is more like a "miscellaneous tree". The thing is a lot of the better stuff in the Utility tree Jax specifically doesn't have a use for. Strength of Spirit and Intelligence are both amazing in terms of stats gained per mastery point, but Jax doesn't like either of these. Max mana isn't a big deal for him because he's not building Muramana/Archangel. Meditation not that great. There's a lot of good stuff in the utility tree and there are champions that I'm sure can make an argument for it. I just don't see it on Jax. From points 9 to 21 really all he gains that's relevant is movespeed, the explorer ward and Vampirism. That's not much for 12 mastery points. Lmui's logic sounds a lot more sensible to me. Something like this I like a lot more: http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#plUvSllqMa2k37qd | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I am wondering if AP/level and Mpen would outdamage Havoc, flat AD and Spellsword. My initial thought is that it would not, but I may math this later. OR MAYBE I WILL DO IT RIGHT NOW Okay lets see, pulling Neo's build out again. 538 phys DPS and 238 magic DPS Getting 3 AD, Spellsword and Havoc increases DPS by: 6 phys (3 AD) 3 magic (Spellsword) 11 phys and 5 magic (Havoc) For a total of 555 phys DPS and 246 magic DPS Whereas AP/level would increase DPS by: 12 magic For a total of 538 phys DPS and 250 magic DPS So lets say we're vs. a target with 100 armor and 100 MR. Modified DPS (build 1): 289+123 = 412 Modified DPS (build 2): 280+130 = 410 Factor in that Havoc and AD are making your burst higher by increasing your Leap Strike and Counterstrike damage, and also increasing the damage on your BotRK passive and active, and I think we have an obvious winner. | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/GlU7glrMa2PUrd - 17/13 : up against a lane with a strong early game and want to do a carry-splitpush style of jax http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/glU7glqTvMa2vEd - 21/9 : going full yolo to dump on a weak early lane and assert your dominance http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/ZMUq7nMa2x3Hvd - 9/21 : sacrificing early-mid game strength to be tanky as hell all game long. all of these mastery pages with very slight changes in the first row of the offense tree are the best to take on Jax, each serving different purposes. 21 utility is just for "l0l gotta go fast" | ||
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LightningStrike
United States14277 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On October 07 2013 12:13 Dusty wrote: I think you're trying to hard to find something good for Jax when it's extremely simple what would be good for masteries for him. http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/GlU7glrMa2PUrd - 17/13 : up against a lane with a strong early game and want to do a carry-splitpush style of jax http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/glU7glqTvMa2vEd - 21/9 : going full yolo to dump on a weak early lane and assert your dominance http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/ZMUq7nMa2x3Hvd - 9/21 : sacrificing early-mid game strength to be tanky as hell all game long. all of these mastery pages with very slight changes in the first row of the offense tree are the best to take on Jax, each serving different purposes. 21 utility is just for "l0l gotta go fast" Did you really post after my math post builds that took mpen? Shameful. Shameful! | ||
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Lmui
Canada6218 Posts
21/9/0 - Coupled with dualpen+AD or AD+LS depending on lane http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/ZlUMSllTvMa6vEd 14/16 - Coupled with AD+LS http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/3MUMGlrMatkUTqd 9/21 - Coupled with AD+LS or AD depending on lane http://mullinator.com/tools/masteries/ZMUq7nMatkAtvd The 9/21 varies the most since the amount of weight I put on tenacious/MR varies a lot depending on the lane. I like the idea of getting dualpen but I honestly feel the points are better spent elsewhere. For 5 points I'd much rather take less harass from enemy champions, get CC reduction or just tankier. It's alright early on but mid-lategame, after grabbing botrk and triforce, your damage leans heavily towards the physical side, ~80/20 split which means that the 8% mpen is negligible compared to the other stuff you can get for 5 points. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Fury is the worst mastery in the game, don't put points in it if there are other options. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6218 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Even on 35 AP it's better for Jax's overall damage than almost any other single point in the offense tree. It's reeeeeeallly cost efficient. You also have to remember that that Spellsword damage is being increased by things like baron buff, super late game blue elixirs, Sona aura etc, and then being magnified by Havoc and Executioner. It's like, so good. | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
that said, havoc is a terrible mastery and taking points in it is terrible. The only time it's ever good is for stuff like ultra-lategame carries like karthus or ad carries that want to build crit. and the MPen makes Jax's early to mid significantly stronger | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On October 07 2013 14:58 Dusty wrote: Stop thinking about masteries in the lategame scenarios only, you also have to consider the early game.. that said, havoc is a terrible mastery and taking points in it is terrible. The only time it's ever good is for stuff like ultra-lategame carries like karthus or ad carries that want to build crit. and the MPen makes Jax's early to mid significantly stronger No. You are wrong. At level 1 with a Dorans Blade, Jax has lets say about 70 AD. 3 points in Havoc increases the damage from a level 1 Empower from 110 to 112.2 4 points in Blast increases it from 110 to 110.6 Now lets say our target has about 40 armor and 40 MR. How much does the mpen help? With Havoc: 80.33 modified damage With mpen: 80.84 modified damage So for an extra 2 mastery points you are getting an increase of 0.5 damage on one attack. The extra 2 mastery points you're taking from Havoc are going to give you more than 0.5 damage per attack pretty much regardless of what you put them in. Now considering that Havoc A - Increases the damage on all of your attacks and not just Empower. B - Scales with any other runes or masteries you might have. A more serious look at the math would favor Havoc. C - Makes it easier to last hit. D - Increases your sustain by increasing your physical damage. E - Is better late game which you've already admitted. F - Costs fewer mastery points. I hope you can see why you are wrong. I appreciate looking at things from different angles and in different scenarios, but if you're going to say something like "X is terrible" when I'm taking the time to actually put these things through a calculator and look at them, you should do the same. Or you could just take the common sense approach of thinking that mastery points that scale with levels and your opponents stats are probably not as good at level 1 as masteries that give you the full bonus immediately, and that mpen on a character that only does 20-25% magic damage is not very efficient. 1 AP better than 2% more damage right after you admitted that 18 AP is not better than 2% more damage? Did you really think that through? | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On October 07 2013 23:05 Ketara wrote: No. You are wrong. At level 1 with a Dorans Blade, Jax has lets say about 70 AD. 3 points in Havoc increases the damage from a level 1 Empower from 110 to 112.2 4 points in Blast increases it from 110 to 110.6 Now lets say our target has about 40 armor and 40 MR. How much does the mpen help? With Havoc: 80.33 modified damage With mpen: 80.84 modified damage So for an extra 2 mastery points you are getting an increase of 0.5 damage on one attack. The extra 2 mastery points you're taking from Havoc are going to give you more than 0.5 damage per attack pretty much regardless of what you put them in. Now considering that Havoc A - Increases the damage on all of your attacks and not just Empower. B - Scales with any other runes or masteries you might have. A more serious look at the math would favor Havoc. C - Makes it easier to last hit. D - Increases your sustain by increasing your physical damage. E - Is better late game which you've already admitted. F - Costs fewer mastery points. I hope you can see why you are wrong. I appreciate looking at things from different angles and in different scenarios, but if you're going to say something like "X is terrible" when I'm taking the time to actually put these things through a calculator and look at them, you should do the same. Or you could just take the common sense approach of thinking that mastery points that scale with levels and your opponents stats are probably not as good at level 1 as masteries that give you the full bonus immediately, and that mpen on a character that only does 20-25% magic damage is not very efficient. 1 AP better than 2% more damage right after you admitted that 18 AP is not better than 2% more damage? Did you really think that through? I feel like this post was more confrontational than it needed to be. | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
I've never been a math heavy player and I've always been a feel-heavy player as in I am extremely good at feeling things out on my own, and from my experience mpen on Jax allows him to be stronger early game which in turn snowballs him to be an unbeatable splitpush-god-tank-carry sooner; and that havoc's effect on damage is extremely minmimal | ||
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Apoptotic
United States137 Posts
On October 08 2013 15:40 obesechicken13 wrote: I feel like this post was more confrontational than it needed to be. All the math is appreciated, Ketara. :D Calculations are cool but definitely not my forte, so I'm very thankful for all the math posts. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Basically, everytime you level up and don't buy AP items or level W or R, Havoc becomes stronger (because the other 2 skills are physical and you get some more AD and AS) comparatively to the other thing. And the Sheen proc outperforms the AP it gives by far. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On October 08 2013 19:00 Dusty wrote: I've never been a math heavy player and I've always been a feel-heavy player as in I am extremely good at feeling things out on my own, and from my experience mpen on Jax allows him to be stronger early game which in turn snowballs him to be an unbeatable splitpush-god-tank-carry sooner; and that havoc's effect on damage is extremely minmimal league is a numbers game; relying on gut feeling is never as good as relying on hard evidence. | ||
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