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On October 08 2013 19:00 Dusty wrote:
and it also only accounts for the level 1, which is apparently the entire early/mid game. need to consider things like (leapstrike) w + ult proc harass, the added ratios from sheen/trinity along with the pen.. you can't just say "this is better at level 1" which according to your math, your masteries are better at level 1. what about levels 2-17?
I've never been a math heavy player and I've always been a feel-heavy player as in I am extremely good at feeling things out on my own, and from my experience mpen on Jax allows him to be stronger early game which in turn snowballs him to be an unbeatable splitpush-god-tank-carry sooner; and that havoc's effect on damage is extremely minmimal
Because mpen really helps your Leapstrike, Counterstrike, Trinity proc and the 3 autoattacks you need to do to proc your ult, right?
Literally the level 1 math that I did was about the most friendly towards mpen that I could possibly be. Anything else you add in is going to be favoring Havoc over AP/mpen.
You are just mathematically wrong. I'm sorry if that's confrontational, but it pisses me off when I spend an hour writing a post with math and you respond with "this is terrible" and nothing else.
It's not even difficult math. Literally all I'm doing is going to lol wiki, looking at the calculations, and putting them into Microsoft Calculator. I just happen to think that's fun! It's quite fun.
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I'm gonna have to highly question the the usefulness of spellblade on Jax. If you only get trinity you're only getting 1.5 magic damage per hit which is really minuscule. Generally you aren't going to have any AP in the early game either, so I'm not sure if it's really worth it at all. If you're going to go nashors, which is a viable item on Jax, then maybe, but otherwise I think it's a waste of a point unless there REALLY isn't anything better. I think destruction would be more useful since Jax is a pretty strong splitpusher.
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On October 09 2013 06:34 koreasilver wrote:
I'm gonna have to highly question the the usefulness of spellblade on Jax. If you only get trinity you're only getting 1.5 magic damage per hit which is really minuscule. Generally you aren't going to have any AP in the early game either, so I'm not sure if it's really worth it at all. If you're going to go nashors, which is a viable item on Jax, then maybe, but otherwise I think it's a waste of a point unless there REALLY isn't anything better. I think destruction would be more useful since Jax is a pretty strong splitpusher.
For starters, it's actually 1.75 magic damage, since we assume Ignite is going to be on cooldown in most serious situations, meaning you'll be at 35 AP.
But, lets look at the alternatives. Destruction probably is better, but the fact is you can get both.
Here's some example mastery pages:
http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#plUvSllTKdd 19 points in offense (headed towards 21)
http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#plUvSllqdd 16 points (so you can still get Block in defense)
Brute Force (1.5 AD) is better than Spellblade on Jax since it's relevant at level 1 and is upped by crit etc, but in either case we're getting both of them.
Our options for what to get in exchange are either:
1.25% bonus AP
2 AP
0.25 AP/level
5% crit damage
1% attackspeed
I think it's pretty blatant that the AP masteries are not going to be as good. Even at level 18 that's 4.5 AP, which in a 2AA+W rotation (friendliest to AP you can get) will be adding 1.3AP in damage, or 5.85 damage, as opposed to 5.25 from spellblade. Assuming you're going to do exactly 3 autos is unfair, the longer the fight goes on the better Spellblade will be, and it will be relevant earlier. You'll do 0.25 damage straight from level 1 after Ignite is used, and get a big boost as soon as you buy the amp tome for Sheen, rather than having to wait while your AP/level ramps up to be of any use.
5% crit is actually pretty nice, but your only crit item is going to be Trinity, which is only 10% crit. So on average this is only increasing your AA damage by 0.5%. You'd need 350 AD for this to average 1.75 damage per attack, which you're not going to be getting on Jax even at level 18 with 6 items, so Spellblade is better.
1% attackspeed is trickier. Basically the higher your attackspeed is, the more overall damage spellblade is adding, but the higher your AD is, the more overall damage attackspeed is adding.
Going back to the build Neo suggested, we're looking at 1.47 attackspeed, a 2.4 second cooldown on W, which means with perfect timing you're actually autoing 1.9 times per second. So spellblade is adding 3.325 damage per second.
So, Jax has a base attackspeed of 0.638, so 1% attackspeed is giving him an extra attack every 156 seconds. In order for that to average out to 3.325 extra damage per second Jax has to be averaging 518.7 damage per attack. That's not going to be happening either.
So, of our available options, Spellblade is actually best. If you were going 17/13 you could also grab 2 arpen. I think I like 16/14 better though because looking at 2 arpen vs. 1.5% bonus HP, I think I prefer the bonus HP. Preference choice.
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If you're going to go 19 points then yeah, spellblade seems like the best one point to spend on because of how shitty 1% as, 1% cdr, 0.25 ap/lvl, and 2 ap is. But past 15 points into offense I feel like I would rather put the extra point into tenacious or relentless against teams that have slows. I don't really see the 1.5~1.75 magic damage per auto AFTER building trinity to be a better investment than a 7.5% reduction of slows or 5% tenacity.
I guess while I can definitely see the usefulness of going 9, 14, 15, 19, and 21 points into offense, unless spellblade is being taken to go 19+ points into offense, I don't feel like it's worth it because I would rather spend the point on tenacious or relentless. But if we're only looking at the offensive tree then yes, it seems that you may be right.
and tenacious >>> juggernaut on Jax, imo.
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The thing about going less than 16 points into Offense is that, in general, the stuff in the Defense tree is better than the stuff in the Offense tree, in terms of stats gained per mastery point.
If you're going 17/13 or 16/14 the decision you're making is "I want an offense focused mastery page, but I have to have Block to survive laning." IMO if you're going less than 16 into Offense the decision you're making is that you want a defense focused page, and then 9/21 is the most efficient you can do.
The masteries towards the end of the Defense tree are basically all batshit overpowered in terms of cost efficiency, and the Tenacity masteries are extremely valuable because you cannot get those stats from items.
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I never know what defensive masteries I want, because they all seem equally good. Teach me Ketara
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Are you being serious?
If anything the reason why you don't know what you want is because every single thing in the Defense tree after 9 points is overpowered.
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On October 09 2013 08:56 Ketara wrote:
Are you being serious?
If anything the reason why you don't know what you want is because every single thing in the Defense tree after 9 points is overpowered.
Kinda.
This is my Jax Page: http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#7sUq7nMa6kjtvd Obviously Armor/MR changes on matchup.
But sometimes I think I want to take everything and dont know what to take ever.
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I would 100% move the point from defender to reinforced armor. the 10% reduction from crit damage is much more meaningful than the paltry 1~5 armor/mr once teamfights start. Against teams with slows I'd take relentless as well over safeguard.
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That's basically it. You want to take everything because everything in the Defense tree is really really good.
But here are some things to note.
Unyielding and Block are like the best masteries in the game at level 1, and fall off really sharply.
To put it in perspective, late in the game you have say 3k HP. 1 point in Juggernaut will give you an extra 45 HP. So in order for a point in Unyielding to equal that, you'd have to be attacked by enemy champions 45 times in a single fight. Only that's not really true because the damage you take during that extra 45 HP is going to be mitigated by your armor/MR, meaning it's technically worth more than 45 HP. Basically, at level 18 Juggernaut is going to be WAY more effective than Unyielding/Block.
So the first question you need to ask yourself is, do I NEED Unyielding/Block to win this lane? If it's a requirement, they're amazing masteries early game. If it's not a requirement then I'm not saying they're bad to have, I'm saying you could more efficiently use your points.
The Tenacity masteries are in a similar boat. They're amazingly good but their effectiveness is directly related to how much CC is on the opposing team. Sometimes their team has a lot of hard CC and barely any slows and you don't need slow reduction, and other times their team has almost no CC, or low hard CC but lots of slows. You have to make a judgement call on this in champ select.
The remaining things we're left with really are:
Max %HP
Armor/MR per nearby champion
Max %Armor/MR
% Crit reduction
% Death time reduction
Health regen per missing HP.
So lets examine these.
% Death time reduction is another judgement call. I'm not a good enough player to identify when it's a good idea and when it isn't and I doubt hardly anybody is.
Health regen per missing HP I think is actually quite efficient in the very early game compared to the others, but much like Unyielding/Block falls off really hard really quickly, probably even moreso. I don't think Jax has lanes that are such a hard counter that this becomes a must buy in comparison to the others so we'll ignore this one.
So now we're left with:
Max %HP
% Crit reduction
Armor/MR per nearby champion
Max %Armor/MR
If our end game build is going to be Trinity+BotRK+Mercs+Visage+Randuin+GA, then our level 1 and level 18 stats are going to be:
Level 1
597 HP (+some for a Dorans start)
21.5+16.5 Armor
31.25+15.5 MR
Level 18
3515 HP
81+136.5 Armor (204.5 with ult)
52.5+135.5 MR (186.5 with ult)
So, how can we figure this out.
First, lets look at Defender vs. Legendary Armor.
Defender is giving us 1 Armor and 1 MR in lane, and 5 Armor/MR in a 5v5.
1 point in Legendary Armor gives us 0.33 Armor and 0.31 MR at level 1, and 4.09 Armor / 3.73 MR in a best case scenario.
So per point, Defender is probably a little bit better than Legendary Armor on Jax. If you were going a 100% tank build like lets say Malphite would, the reverse might actually be true, but we're talking about Jax.
With that in mind, lets look at Legendary Armor vs. Juggernaut. This is going to get complicated for a number of reasons. First, both of them give more stats for the first point than they do for subsequent points. And secondly, these statistics actually have a beneficial relationship with each other. The more HP you have the more you get out of Armor/MR, and vice versa. So if we only have 3 points say, 2 points in 1 and 1 in the other may actually be more efficient than maxing one over the other. Finally, what the enemy champions are building also matter here.
Without spending 45 minutes doing the math on this one, let me say that I actually did some simple calculations for Legendary Armor v. Juggernaut a few days ago while I was making a different post in this thread, and found them to be roughly equal in terms of point for point. Which means you want at least 1 point in each (since the first point in each of them is better than subsequent points) and then following that what you put your points in is going to be fairly academic. I tend to lean towards Legendary Armor because Armor/MR also stacks with sustain, which you are building on Jax, but if the enemy team has a lot of armor shred and no %HP damage or true damage Juggernaut may be better. Likewise if the enemy team has a lot of %HP damage then Legendary Armor is probably a bit better.
This also means by association that Defender is a little bit better than Juggernaut (especially early game)
Finally, we have crit damage reduction. This mastery is actually ridiculously good, assuming your opponents are building crit. This is because since these are all multiplicative calculations, it's actually reducing the damage by more than "10%"
Lets look at an Ashe build, lets say. It's late game, she's at IE BT LW Shiv. She's got 336 AD and 45% crit and does x1.625 additional damage on a crit. You've got 166 armor after her reductions.
Without crit reduction she's averaging 218 damage per hit, and with it she's averaging 196 damage per hit. That's 24 less damage per attack. Put in perspective, it'd take more than 40 armor to equal the same reduction per hit (because she has all that arpen).
But the problem is, that's only reducing Ashe's crit damage. So you need to make another judgement call here. Are there multiple champions on the enemy team buying crit? Is most of their damage coming from the ADC, or is their team really all around damage heavy? This is a little bit of a difficult call on Jax because you already have a spell that makes you immune to crits for 2 seconds. I'd say that if more than one person on their team is going to have any crit then this is an obvious choice, if the ADC is the main source of damage in their composition it's an obvious choice, but if their top/jungle are also damage heavy it's a judgement call.
Then again, Jax's job is to dive the ADC like a boss, so crit reduction may just always be good on him.
So BASICALLY, this is your defensive mastery thought process.
1 - Do I need Unyielding/Block to survive laning? If yes, take. If no, do not take.
2 - Do I need slow/CC reduction vs. their team? If yes, take. If no, do not take.
Remaining points in:
3 - Crit reduction (possibly a judgement call)
4 - Defender
5 - 1 pt. Juggernaut 1 pt Legendary Armor
6 - Any remaining points Legendary Armor
This is kind of fucked up by the way things are arranged in the tree though, so my mastery pages might look something like:
http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#plUq7nMa2CZSgd With Tenacity
http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#plUq7nMa2k38gd With Block
http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#plUq7nMa2xjUgd With both
http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#plUq7nUa2k78gd With neither
TL;DR - You should be doing slight alterations to a 21 point defense page in every game, unfortunately.
HOPE THAT HELPS 
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I hate Riot.
I hate runes.
Now I even hate masteries.
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Legendary Armour is based on bonus armour and MR, Juggernaut is total HP.
At 100 bonus armour, 3 points in Legendary Armour gives you 5% increased EHP (5% increase in armour and MR, each point of armour and MR = 1% EHP)
Juggernaut gives you (obviously) 1 point of extra hp per 25 points of max hp for 3 points.
This means that at 100 bonus armour/MR and 2500 hp, LA gives you 125 EHP and Juggernaut gives you 100.
With the level 18 Jax stats Ketara posted, LA gives you 10.225 extra armour and 9.325 extra MR with your ult on which means an increase of 359.4 EHP vs Physical damage and 327.77 EHP vs Magic damage. Juggernaut is giving you 140.6 vs both.
Also as far as armour pen and such go, you are getting more than twice as much EHP from LA, so you'd have to have your resists reduced by over 50% to equal out with Juggernaut in the given situation.
Basically the tankier you get the better Legendary Armour is going to be. Especially if you build items with health components on them in addition to their resists.
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On October 09 2013 17:33 Magus wrote:
Juggernaut gives you (obviously) 1 point of extra hp per 25 points of max hp for 3 points.
This means that at 100 bonus armour/MR and 2500 hp, LA gives you 125 EHP and Juggernaut gives you 100.
At 2500 hp, juggernaut gives you 100hp, but since you assume 100 bonus armor/mr, you're looking at 200 ehp from bonus resists and a bit more from base resists.
Edit: Actually it's the same deal with the rest of your math:
On October 09 2013 17:33 Magus wrote:
With the level 18 Jax stats Ketara posted, LA gives you 10.225 extra armour and 9.325 extra MR with your ult on which means an increase of 359.4 EHP vs Physical damage and 327.77 EHP vs Magic damage. Juggernaut is giving you 140.6 vs both.
I have no idea what stats ketara gave, seem to be around 3.5k hp and 200 bonus armor from your results. Juggernaut gives 140 extra hp, but add in the 280 armor and it's 532 ehp against physical damage.
The maths were done a while ago on reign of gaming (I didn't proffread them), saying you need 600 bonus resists for the 3 points in legendary armor to beat the 3 points in juggernaut.
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I'd rather not trust RoG's maths and do my own instead. They're usually heavily biased and thus atrocious at it.
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On October 09 2013 22:05 Alaric wrote:
I'd rather not trust RoG's maths and do my own instead. They're usually heavily biased and thus atrocious at it.
You're right about that. Let's do some maths then.
Imagine a scenario largely in legendary armor's favor: say 400 bonus armor and MR and 2k hp.
Legendary armor gives you 20 extra armor and MR, which translates into 400 extra EHP.
Juggernaut gives 80 hp which is 400 extra EHP from just bonus resists, a bit more with base resists.
Juggernaut is still slightly ahead, despite the terrible scenario. On top of that, you get the full effect from juggernaut from the level 1, because it's based on total hp, while legendary armor doesn't do much until you get bonus resists from your kit or items.
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The issue you guys are having here is that you're examining maxing one vs. maxing the other.
Because these statistics have a symbiotic relationship with each other and because the first point in each is giving more stats than the subsequent points, unless your items/skills heavily favor one over the other (for example, Juggernaut is way better than Legendary Armor on Vi because of her shield), 2 points in one and 1 point in the other is likely going to beat maxing either one.
For example, at 3.5k HP, 100+200 armor and 100+200 bonus MR.
The 3rd point in Juggernaut gives you 43.75 HP, which modified by your resists is 131.25 EHP.
The 3rd point in Legendary Armor gives you 3 Armor/MR, which modified by your HP is 105 EHP.
However, the 1st point in Legendary Armor gives you 4 Armor/MR, which modified by your HP is 140 EHP.
So, to total that up, 3 points in Juggernaut is giving you 420 EHP, 3 Legendary Armor gives you 350 EHP.
But 2 points Juggernaut and 1 Legendary Armor is giving you 432.6 EHP
So, 2 points in one and 1 point in the other is in general the way to go. On Jax I prefer the 2nd point in Legendary Armor because he also has lifesteal and sustain is symbiotic with Armor/MR and not HP. But realistically the difference is extremely small, and because of where the points are in the tree you are likely forced to get more points in Juggernaut.
I also disagree that Juggernaut is better early game, again because of this sustain issue. Sustain and its relationship with Armor/MR over HP matters much more in early laning than it does in late game, this is the main reason why people go Armor runes over HP runes (HP runes in general give more EHP.) Even at level 1 your runes and masteries will be giving you 15-16 bonus armor, and a point in Legendary Armor will be giving you something.
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On October 09 2013 23:55 Ketara wrote:
The issue you guys are having here is that you're examining maxing one vs. maxing the other.
Because these statistics have a symbiotic relationship with each other and because the first point in each is giving more stats than the subsequent points, unless your items/skills heavily favor one over the other (for example, Juggernaut is way better than Legendary Armor on Vi because of her shield), 2 points in one and 1 point in the other is likely going to beat maxing either one.
Wait what? Juggernaut is better on Vi because juggernaut is better than legendary armor. The way her shield works though, makes getting resists more interesting than getting health.Her shield benefits at 100% from all the resists you get, but only from 10% of the health you would get. Edit Alaric is right.
On October 09 2013 23:55 Ketara wrote:
For example, at 3.5k HP, 100+200 armor and 100+200 bonus MR.
I would prefer a more realistic scenario. It's not uncommon in my games (low gold) to see a tanky champions with 3.5k hp late game, but I don't think I've ever seen someone with both 300 armor and 300 MR. No champion gets more than 52.5 base MR and no item gives more than 55 MR.
On October 09 2013 23:55 Ketara wrote:
I also disagree that Juggernaut is better early game, again because of this sustain issue. Sustain and its relationship with Armor/MR over HP matters much more in early laning than it does in late game, this is the main reason why people go Armor runes over HP runes (HP runes in general give more EHP.) Even at level 1 your runes and masteries will be giving you 15-16 bonus armor, and a point in Legendary Armor will be giving you something.
Juggernaut will get better as you level up (you get more hp) but legendary armor requires you to buy resist to get something. 0.3 armor/MR until you buy resists is a pathetic boost.
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Na, Vi's shield is %total HP so it doesn't matter what you buy, it scales equally with HP and resists on a per-point basis. Just buy whatever gives you more EHP and it'll be what gives your shield more EHP. It's the same logic with Maokai's (7% HP heal) and Malphite's (10% HP renewable shield) passives.
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3.5k HP, 300 armor and 300 MR is similar to what we're talking about for end game Jax stats (see above posts). It's also easy to do the math on.
You might be right about Vi.
But like, looking at Juggernaut vs. Legendary Armor early game.
Lets say I'm playing Malphite and starting with cloth armor, 5 pots and a biscuit.
I'm starting with 519 HP and a 51.9 HP shield. I've got 21.75+34 armor.
3 pts Juggernaut will give me an extra 32.24 EHP and an extra 3.23 EHP every shield.
3 pts Legendary Armor will give me 22.93 EHP, and an extra 0.88 EHP every shield.
Why is this so similar? Because my total in lane HP is not 519, it's 1349 after using my potions. Every minute I'm in lane at level 1 I'm getting about another 2 EHP out of my passive regen as well, and this only goes up with levels. Leveling up gives me about 4 EHP from Juggernaut, but about 1.5 from Legendary Armor.
This is also a disingenuous way to look at it, because things like Unyielding, Block and Dorans Shield bonuses are actually calculated after armor, which means the more armor you have the more efficient these masteries are. This can be a big deal early game. If I have 20 armor and take 70 damage from an autoattack, Unyielding/Block matter as much as 11 armor, but if I have 40 armor they matter as much as 15.
Basically, in a lane where you're going to be buying early lifesteal or chugging lots of potions, Legendary Armor is probably going to be equal to Juggernaut, or perhaps better if one of the first items you buy in lane is like a Chain Vest or a Negatron, which is very common for a lot of tanky/bruisery laners. In a lane where you don't plan on getting a lot of extra sustain or plan on doing like a crazy level 2 all-in, Juggernaut is an easy victor.
But still, 2 points in one and 1 point in the other is probably best, as shown above.
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It's also worth noting that those calculations look pretty paltry on the Malphite example, it's just what came to my head. Because of his early game shield, Juggernaut is going to edge out Legendary Armor on Malphite.
If you were say, a Renekton who has a built in sustain skill and might start 5 pots+Rejuv bead, or an Udyr who gets a shield + innate lifesteal, or a Nasus etc, Legendary Armor is going to look a lot better over time.
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EPT
