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On November 06 2012 13:53 cLutZ wrote:
Well lots of people started buying GA more often after the Banshee's and QSS nerfs hit those items fairly hard (although they bought it before that as well, just saying I think those things are correlated a bit).
Jax vs. Singed: I lose this matchup from both sides, and win it from both sides. What is the key to this thing?
Iirc banshees and QSS were nerfed quite hard too in a years time. Does anything in this game ever get buffed? Like long term.
Ok maybe syndra. And maybe kat. Hexdrinker.
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On November 06 2012 14:00 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 13:53 cLutZ wrote:
Well lots of people started buying GA more often after the Banshee's and QSS nerfs hit those items fairly hard (although they bought it before that as well, just saying I think those things are correlated a bit).
Jax vs. Singed: I lose this matchup from both sides, and win it from both sides. What is the key to this thing? Iirc banshees and QSS were nerfed quite hard too in a years time. Does anything in this game ever get buffed? Like long term. Ok maybe syndra. And maybe kat. Hexdrinker.
Sona and Ezreal are good examples. Buffed then nerfed. Yay!
Then there are the champions that gets multiple buffs. LeBlanc got one buff a few months ago and she will most likely be receiving another one... although with the likely S3 minion damage increase she might be having even more difficulties in S3.
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The thing about buffs is, Riot sucks at them (also at making new champs that are balanced). They are, of course, not alone in this (See things like the Deathknight in WoW). Places like Riot/Blizzard are, in reality, echochambers (like going to the strategy room at the RNC or DNC). This is why we get champs like Rengar with hp sustain + manaless, even after they realized this was a problem with Vlad, or why we get a new Energy Based champion when all non-mana champions have been consistently impossible to balance.
In reality, a place like Riot, or Blizzard, needs a community like TL (not like reddit) where they randomly select strong members to sign to 3-6 month contracts, with strict confidentiality clauses, to be outside consultants. Having an official liason is a bad move, because you get the worst of all worlds (people QQ to him, he inherits the hivemind at whatever company employs him). The real move is not hiring Smash (which was cool and I support him), it was signing Smash to a 6 month contract, followed by Neo, then Soniv, etc. That way, this outside contractor says, "WTF are you doing?" Eve buff + DFG change in successive patches?
Another thing, that is bound to happen, is in S3 they will introduce all sorts of new stuff, now obviously its impossible to determine how all of the new things will interact, so something will inevitably be OP. BUT, a good outside contractor would be the one saying, "Hey! Hey! Do you really think we should change Hextech and Akali at the same time?" Or, upcoming, "Do you think we should introduce a manaless assassin right before the major S3 item overhaul?"
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They already have these consultants. I am pretty sure scarra mentioned that Morello would every-so-often ask around the pros and their opinions on balance. As for good players, well, I think Riot has at least 4 2k+ Elo players on top of my head. That's plenty of people to do internal tests with.
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4 american 2k+. wtb asian high elo consultant
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On November 06 2012 16:24 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
4 american 2k+. wtb asian high elo consultant
Perhaps. But as far as new champions are concerned I think that's enough.
It's really difficult to account for balance issues sometimes, esp. for buffs. Sometimes a champion is not 'weak', per se; it might just be underplayed. I am pretty sure the pre-Draven Ezreal is on-par with the Ezreal in WC, it's just that no one noticed back then. To make matters worse, there are already so many champions; the unpopular ones are usually being played in less than 2% of total ranked games.
Nerfs, on the other hand, is easy to do. A commonly perceived "OP" champion is usually popular and it's easy to make certain that it is actually strong.
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On November 06 2012 16:24 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
4 american 2k+. wtb asian high elo consultant
honestly, past a certain point players all generally have a very strong knowledge of the game. what separates the asian team from the NA teams isn't necessarily knowledge of the game, but rather execution and teamwork.
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Whatever it is they should have multiple viable champions in each position to allow for different types of play. Whether that be by nerfing ones that make gameplay dull, like anything with a global ult or by introducing new champions that are totally imbalanced because they have a level 6 invisible + a 90% cleave on your adc, it doesn't really matter imo. I feel that aslong as the gameplay doesn't become dull and there are always new things either being changed because of balance patches or because people developing the meta, i feel lol has a big competitive following because things are never stale. The biggest problem I have is how fast they're introducing new champions, with new champions being introduced so often the focus is usually on the new champions instead of trying some thing non meta.
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On November 06 2012 16:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 16:24 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
4 american 2k+. wtb asian high elo consultant honestly, past a certain point players all generally have a very strong knowledge of the game. what separates the asian team from the NA teams isn't necessarily knowledge of the game, but rather execution and teamwork.
I'll have to disagree. the Koreans demonstrated an understanding of the game that can be described as different at first, but now recognize as significantly better. people diss solo q all the time, but its where a lot of ideas are formed and cemented. with Korean solo q being so much more competitive + higher prevalence of ranked 5s and scrims, it's safe to say this translates into a higher understanding of the game compared to the entertainment streaming most Americans do
I'll throw in an sc2 example. I remember there was this period of time where zerg had really bad win rate everywhere except Korea where it was dominant. all these examples are really weak but it's no secret that Asians outperform Caucasians in dota dota2 and now LoL. not having any Asian consultants would be a mistake
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when you say "asian", i hope you mean "korean"
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On November 06 2012 21:04 Bill Murray wrote:
when you say "asian", i hope you mean "korean"
i actually mean asian. koreans are the most well-documented, however.
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Asian teams - not just Korean teams - were stronger in bw/sc2dota/dota2/LoL. All the bw players we know are Korean, but China is actually the second strongest bw country, but they're just not as covered. China also fielded the strongest dota teams.
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the force of asians is their team play and team strategies...solo wise CLG EU or Dignitas have as much talent as most asian crews.
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No, their advantage is that their goal is to win, so they practice like winning is their job, which it is.
Why did people think BW players would crush in SC2? They were skilled - yes - but a consistent theme across all great BW players is that they practice like demons. Every single player who mentions Flash/Jaedong/Bisu talk about their talent, but also how dedicated they are to practice. When pros win? "I was fortunate." When they lose? "I'm sorry to disappoint my fans, and will practice harder for the next tournament."
Yes, na/eu teams are probably just as talented as Asian ones. They just don't have the same drive to practice. A *desire* to win isn't enough - to win at the top levels of any sport, you must be willing to put in the hours.
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Hiring pros, or even high level KR/EU/NA soloQ players isn't helpful though. They usually seem to learn to exploit strong things by testing them over and over (often these things are based on the numbers a champion has). You need to have people who look at the KITS of a champion or utility of an item and decide based on that. Changing numbers on the backend is easy if you have a fairly balanced champ design, a decent example of that would be Sivir, Annie, Taric, or Volibear. Not all of those chars are played at a high level, but none of them are OP at a high level or worthless in soloQ. Its because they have good kits, but not the ridiculous kinds of kits some newer champs like Jayce, Zyra, or Rengar, or older ones like Shen and Vladimir. Those champs, like Jayce have such high utility in their sets that they really need to have pathetic numbers to be properly balanced, but then they will get crapped on and be bad (pre-remake Eve).
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How are people building with success on jax for jungle? The only good guide I've found is Lexvink's on lolpro.com. My problem is that I'm having trouble with the items. It suggests 1-2 doran's blades, phage, HoG, mercs as core. I start boots 3, the 1-2 doran's sounds good, but I'm having a hard time being able to fit HoG with a phage. I just always feel behind in gold when I jungle with jax. The other issue is the clear speed doesn't seem great, so if ganks fail at all I generally feel pretty worthless. I know tri force is pretty expensive and I'm pretty well set to start building tanky items after it but the progession up to it is tough and probably just going to have to work it out. What I've kinda settled on... generally I'm shooting for boots, 1 doran's blade (2 seems hard to fit a lot of the time), then a HoG pretty early - then mercs and phage. In this case the phage comes pretty late but I can't find a better way to do it honestly. The issue I'm having is that at my ELO people push way too much instead of freezing for ganks and if my team is pushing I'm pretty much screwed for gold due to clear speed and if all the pushing they're doing ends up in them getting ganked it's pretty hopeless at that point because I'm already behind. It's usually not a problem when I play my go-to junglers Lee and Shyvana because they both can counter jungle / clear so I don't get as starved on gold. Do I need to be manning up and doing more counter jungling and buying wards for escape?
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On November 07 2012 05:23 Highwayman wrote:
How are people building with success on jax for jungle? The only good guide I've found is Lexvink's on lolpro.com. My problem is that I'm having trouble with the items. It suggests 1-2 doran's blades, phage, HoG, mercs as core. I start boots 3, the 1-2 doran's sounds good, but I'm having a hard time being able to fit HoG with a phage. I just always feel behind in gold when I jungle with jax. The other issue is the clear speed doesn't seem great, so if ganks fail at all I generally feel pretty worthless. I know tri force is pretty expensive and I'm pretty well set to start building tanky items after it but the progession up to it is tough and probably just going to have to work it out. What I've kinda settled on... generally I'm shooting for boots, 1 doran's blade (2 seems hard to fit a lot of the time), then a HoG pretty early - then mercs and phage. In this case the phage comes pretty late but I can't find a better way to do it honestly. The issue I'm having is that at my ELO people push way too much instead of freezing for ganks and if my team is pushing I'm pretty much screwed for gold due to clear speed and if all the pushing they're doing ends up in them getting ganked it's pretty hopeless at that point because I'm already behind. It's usually not a problem when I play my go-to junglers Lee and Shyvana because they both can counter jungle / clear so I don't get as starved on gold. Do I need to be manning up and doing more counter jungling and buying wards for escape?
Jax is a really fast jungler with blue, and obscenely fast once he hits 6. Itemization doesn't matter that much, but getting a HoG first probably isn't a good idea. You need stuff that will help you get kills early so that you snowball. I prefer opening vamp scepter and building right into phage => zeal => triforce.
As for money issues, money comes predominantly from hero kills and assists when jungling. If your team is pushing their lanes too hard, then obviously you're up the creek. You can try counter jungling, but I strongly recommend waiting until level 6 to do so. Best just to stick to creep clearing until you hit 6 if ganks are available.
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On November 07 2012 06:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 05:23 Highwayman wrote:
How are people building with success on jax for jungle? The only good guide I've found is Lexvink's on lolpro.com. My problem is that I'm having trouble with the items. It suggests 1-2 doran's blades, phage, HoG, mercs as core. I start boots 3, the 1-2 doran's sounds good, but I'm having a hard time being able to fit HoG with a phage. I just always feel behind in gold when I jungle with jax. The other issue is the clear speed doesn't seem great, so if ganks fail at all I generally feel pretty worthless. I know tri force is pretty expensive and I'm pretty well set to start building tanky items after it but the progession up to it is tough and probably just going to have to work it out. What I've kinda settled on... generally I'm shooting for boots, 1 doran's blade (2 seems hard to fit a lot of the time), then a HoG pretty early - then mercs and phage. In this case the phage comes pretty late but I can't find a better way to do it honestly. The issue I'm having is that at my ELO people push way too much instead of freezing for ganks and if my team is pushing I'm pretty much screwed for gold due to clear speed and if all the pushing they're doing ends up in them getting ganked it's pretty hopeless at that point because I'm already behind. It's usually not a problem when I play my go-to junglers Lee and Shyvana because they both can counter jungle / clear so I don't get as starved on gold. Do I need to be manning up and doing more counter jungling and buying wards for escape? Jax is a really fast jungler with blue, and obscenely fast once he hits 6. Itemization doesn't matter that much, but getting a HoG first probably isn't a good idea. You need stuff that will help you get kills early so that you snowball. I prefer opening vamp scepter and building right into phage => zeal => triforce. As for money issues, money comes predominantly from hero kills and assists when jungling. If your team is pushing their lanes too hard, then obviously you're up the creek. You can try counter jungling, but I strongly recommend waiting until level 6 to do so. Best just to stick to creep clearing until you hit 6 if ganks are available.
Okay so with vamp scepter start when are you typically ganking? I'm going to try that, starting blue, and ganking on my typical skarner path where I'm ganking mid with double buff at 3/4. I would agree HoG seems kinda bad early but it's hard not to because of gold issues.
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On November 07 2012 05:23 Highwayman wrote:
The other issue is the clear speed doesn't seem great, so if ganks fail at all I generally feel pretty worthless.
Yeah jax's clear speed isn't that great. Especially pre-6. You can get wriggles, the stats are great, but most of that active is tied up in a free ward and the bonus creep damage which really doesn't help your ganks or dueling much.
The issue I'm having is that at my ELO people push way too much instead of freezing for ganks and if my team is pushing I'm pretty much screwed for gold due to clear speed and if all the pushing they're doing ends up in them getting ganked it's pretty hopeless at that point because I'm already behind.
You can always try to do lane ganks through the brush or you can go around to the tribrush to gank. There's a video by ciderhelm on youtube showing you where you are safe to enter the brush for lane ganks.
Top lane is gankable at early levels no matter what because no one starts with a ward. Unless your side is yorick, or kayle, or played by someone who only wants to push, you can gank top early on. It may not lead to a kill unless the enemy gets baited.
Do I need to be manning up and doing more counter jungling and buying wards for escape?
I don't think jax is a bad counterjungler by any means. He has a great escape and lots of consistent damage/dueling strength.
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So I'm thinking of picking up Jax, just because he looks fun. I've never played him before, though I've played vs him a few times in lane/jungle to know what he does. What would you guys say are the biggest things him a non-Jax player wouldn't know but should? Thanks.
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EPT
