EPT[Champion] Kog'Maw - Page 13
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6219 Posts
On July 25 2012 12:19 Ente wrote: I dont recommend that either "blindly" going double PD (if we exclude kogmaw where I think you rarely should go LW) but for other ADs lastwhisper is often a good idea because its cheaper (you will often find yourself with ~2.3k-2.7k gold when you have to back) in that situation you often should get LW. I just want more people think about not going LW and stop the brain afk Lastwhisper which is the standart atm. On a sidenote the highest 4 item dmg you can get (you will really rarely be able to go 5 dmg item AD) is double PD IE LW in pretty much any circumstance (when we ignore BC which I do nowadays you need to attack quite often but fully stacked it outdmgs a lastwhisper until over 220 armor  )Just learned the hard way the sole reason why you NEED a LW in there over another PD. Thornmail. With a fully stacked BT+IE+2xPD, I melted myself. I'm not sure that the LW would've let me kill the guy before I killed myself (death recap shows I took ~1.3k reflected damage). You do do more straight up damage with 2xPD but if they have someone diving you that you have to focus down, you're gonna have a bad time (We had a cho top vs mundo top and both decided that diving the AD on the opposite team was a better idea than peeling for their own carries) | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On August 09 2012 17:52 Lmui wrote: Just learned the hard way the sole reason why you NEED a LW in there over another PD. Thornmail. With a fully stacked BT+IE+2xPD, I melted myself. I'm not sure that the LW would've let me kill the guy before I killed myself (death recap shows I took ~1.3k reflected damage). You do do more straight up damage with 2xPD but if they have someone diving you that you have to focus down, you're gonna have a bad time (We had a cho top vs mundo top and both decided that diving the AD on the opposite team was a better idea than peeling for their own carries) People actually buy Thornmail? | ||
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brolaf
291 Posts
thornmail + sorc boots + mpen reds + abyssal. OUUUCCH | ||
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Simberto
Germany11687 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6219 Posts
On August 09 2012 20:21 Simberto wrote: A fully stacked bloodthirster should basically cancel out thornmail completely. Last whisper does not change the damage you suffer from thornmail in any way, either. But still, against high armor targets you obviously want a LW so they die faster. Though i don't have the exact maths as to how much armor they need to have to make the LW more effective then a PD. If you really have problems with the thormail damage (which i don't think should happen), you should rather get a second BT so you can leech even more life. But that very much cuts into your damage, so i doubt it is worth it. It does actually make a huge difference. The amount of damage returned from thornmail is calculated before armor reductions. If they have 200 armor for instance, for every 100 attack damage you have, you're doing 33 damage to them, lifestealing 20% of that (6.6) while you're taking 30 damage back as magic damage. With a LW, that 200 becomes 120, you're doing 45 damage to them, lifestealing 20% of that (9) while still taking the same 30 damage back as magic damage. As the armor values go up more and more, LW becomes better and better for you at taking out any target with thornmail since you're taking less damage from thornmail in order to kill them. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11687 Posts
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
Is IE + zeal (5025) or wriggles + PD (4445) best to get first with kog? I've always done the latter but I'm starting to get curious which is better... Right now people usually dont go wriggels anymore because it got nerfed too hard. And you are actually correct with the Thornmail it is calculated before Armor so LW would be more effecient. I actually have to correct myself PD PD IE is more dmg until around 300 armor (~170 without w) and PD PD IE BT is more dmg until around 400 armor (~210 without w) Thornmail is just such a rare item | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11687 Posts
On August 09 2012 21:01 Ente wrote: Right now people usually dont go wriggels anymore because it got nerfed too hard. And you are actually correct with the Thornmail it is calculated before Armor so LW would be more effecient. I actually have to correct myself PD PD IE is more dmg until around 300 armor (~170 without w) and PD PD IE BT is more dmg until around 400 armor (~210 without w) Thornmail is just such a rare item I would like to see the maths for this, this sounds weird. I assume you mean that IE PD PD does more damage then IE PD LW until 300 armor, and IE BT PD PD does more then IE BT PD LW until 400 armor? I am a bit lazy at the moment, but i find that really hard to believe, so seeing how you come to this results would be nice. | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
and yes that was exactly what I meant Yes LW is a cheaper item but if you consider stuff outside of pure dmg PD is way stronger then LW for that: better kiting due to better turnspeed with more AS and obviously run faster. Edit: should add the damage calculation was for 2.5k HP which is realistic bruisers often have more but that would just make PD more effecient | ||
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Simberto
Germany11687 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6219 Posts
His spreadsheet does work by the way. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11687 Posts
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
because they almost always got some sort of additional effect additional defensive effects /external buffs (bedides kogmaw q and w) are not taken into account so every AS buff would put it more in LW favor and every Armor debuff/buff would put it into PD favor and ofc increasing the hp to 3k or w/e would increase PD aswell | ||
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Simberto
Germany11687 Posts
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
Ok, calculated the first set of data myself now, and got a break-even point between IE PD PD and IE PD LW at 132 armor Would like to see those calculations im pretty sure you forgot a few things for example: masteries (armorpen/crit) AS boots sth along that. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11687 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
It seems fun, but is not. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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