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On January 14 2012 20:03 getpicture wrote:
after playing with jarvan many games, i've concluded, he's rubbish. he's so completely situational and doesn't hard counter anyone. players attempting to make use of jarvan need to land their E + Q combo and hit at least 3 targets and requires your teammates to go in simultaneously instantaneously during that split second, basically optimise it. pretty much like landing malphites ult except that malphite's ult is a lot better and provides more utility.
Except Jarvan can EQ over and over while Malph blows it once every 2 minutes or so.
jarvan isn't tanky at all, he's extremely armor rune reliant. so if you don't have armor runes, dont bother playing him.
Armor runes are the cheapest runes in the game and the most standard across all champions. I can't fathom why you're wasting time whining about that.
skarner yorick rumble shyvana etc can't bothered to name them all- they do much more dps. take a look at skarner's ult e.g anti carry always win.
Skarner is permaban. Jarvan's purpose isn't to do damage, but rather to tank, initiate, and disrupt the enemy team.
-less tanky, shield doesn't scale costs too much mana and worse than spell shield. (noc and sivir have a reason why they need it)
You're using his shield wrong if all you're trying to do is prevent a little damage. His mana costs are a bit high, yes.
-long cooldowns
Medium cooldowns, but very powerful if used well.
-unable to chase >ridiculously poor chasing power. poor movement speed and no snares W is terrible.
You can't get more wrong than this statement. Jarvan can close distance faster than almost any champ in the game with EQR and Flash. His ult is so powerful that you can blow everything to close the gap to catch a carry and essentially win the game.
-unable to escape messy team fights.
Yeah, it's not like he can press E and Q (even works while Amumu ulted) and can go over terrain... He has fantastic escaping ability in the situations where he actually needs to run.
no sustain- this is BIG. (can't lifesteal as well with bloodthirsters to carry)
It's not that big. You just get wriggles for sustain if you need it just like every other champ that doesn't have sustain.
worthless passive no matter what you say.
Wrong.
tanky dps is better done with so many other champs. ask yourself this question, have you ever played riven, skarner ,shyvana blitz,nocturne? they are so much stronger.
Blitz is an irrelevant comparison, nocturne is not a tank, Skarner is permaban, Riven is overpowered (and getting nerfed) and designed for damage. Shyv is the closest allegory to Jarvan, but she brings a different skillset.
All you've done here is whine that you are incapable of correctly playing Jarvan and therefore he's bad. Hate to break it to you, but he's not. He might not be an all-purpose top laner like some champs, but he is a very strong jungler.
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What the hell? A champ who even gets 44 armor from E is reliant on armor yellows?
They just happen to be the best for bruisers now that dodge is gone.
And apparently being a good disruptor with all of his spells means he's a piece of shit compared to Malphite's ult alone.
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Jarvan can basically one combo a squishy with a little AD. You just need a lot of finesse because he can initate hard but that can backfire as well.
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1. i never said malphite was any good, lee sin's a lot better.
2. his cooldowns are long. go compare again.
3.there's no need to run from jarvan if he initiates team fight. his W shield slow is worthless because nobody is scared of him, and he only can use it once during team fights due to mana problems and cooldown. what do you do if you see amumu leading the charge? everyone spreads out or lose the game due to his ult. amumu's ult is game ending and heavily punishing. what can jarvan punish and win the game with? his combo? rubbish. none of his moves are game changing or deadly or even give those omfg bbq gotta get out of here jarvan's ult. think gp's ult kennen ult etc insert here ult.
4. jarvan can't solo the other fighter melee classes 1v1. if he can't handle a 1v1 he obviously brings nothing to teamfights. 5 strong duelists bring more to the table. some people think that these types of champs perform better in team fights like katarina. jarvan isn't even like katarina.
5.his Q's armor reduction is worthless. it is equivalent to doing 10-13% more damage over that duration against squishies. anyone can kill squishies . see here : http://i.imgur.com/fCaHI.jpg
6. his passive is similar to ashe's passive except ashe's passive does a lot of damage late game.
7. W is useless shield. a simple crit or ranged poke removes this shield. costs so much mana. im using morgana shield spell immune gg. i'd use morgana to shield my allies.
8. jarvan's ult get can himself killed. aoe skillshots rape him, brand and malz nullzone.only ranged ally champs can attack his target.
9. melee champs are short shafted. in any game its always better to have more ranged than melee. melee champs have to provide insane utility to be used e.g alistar lee sin noc. massive CC nukes.
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On January 15 2012 10:58 getpicture wrote:1. i never said malphite was any good, lee sin's a lot better. 2. his cooldowns are long. go compare again. 3.there's no need to run from jarvan if he initiates team fight. his W shield slow is worthless because nobody is scared of him, and he only can use it once during team fights due to mana problems and cooldown. what do you do if you see amumu leading the charge? everyone spreads out or lose the game due to his ult. amumu's ult is game ending and heavily punishing. what can jarvan punish and win the game with? his combo? rubbish. none of his moves are game changing or deadly or even give those omfg bbq gotta get out of here jarvan's ult. think gp's ult kennen ult etc insert here ult. 4. jarvan can't solo the other fighter melee classes 1v1. if he can't handle a 1v1 he obviously brings nothing to teamfights. 5 strong duelists bring more to the table. some people think that these types of champs perform better in team fights like katarina. jarvan isn't even like katarina. 5.his Q's armor reduction is worthless. it is equivalent to doing 10-13% more damage over that duration against squishies. anyone can kill squishies . see here : http://i.imgur.com/fCaHI.jpg6. his passive is similar to ashe's passive except ashe's passive does a lot of damage late game. 7. W is useless shield. a simple crit or ranged poke removes this shield. costs so much mana. im using morgana shield spell immune gg. i'd use morgana to shield my allies. 8. jarvan's ult get can himself killed. aoe skillshots rape him, brand and malz nullzone.only ranged ally champs can attack his target. 9. melee champs are short shafted. in any game its always better to have more ranged than melee. melee champs have to provide insane utility to be used e.g alistar lee sin noc. massive CC nukes.
Okay, you're wrong. Like, straight up, every single point here is wrong except #2.
For the record, Malphite is amazing.
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I respect your opinion but I still cannot see your logic. I do not have the energy to type up a large post again and refute your points so I am going to wait for others to post.
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jarvan is gimmicky, and relies on enemy team to play bad. jarvan is rarely played. people only play him only because everyone else OP is banned. jarvan doesn't punish indecision/poor moves from enemy. he doesn't have to skills to make enemy teams fall apart. he is never banned and never will be because every single move is predictable and cannot achieve above average returns. the fact is you're not a tournament player says so. using your ego on TL isn't gonna to do anything.
pick your 5 champs out of the many, no one is afraid of the omfg jarvan.
User was warned for this post
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You say jungle, but his best lane is as AD support. People laugh when you pick him as support, but turn silent when you singlehandledly can bully short range carries like vayne from lane (even with a sustain support). Amazing burst knockup every tenth second, giving huge armor pen and your passive properties to your AD. The slow shield after knockup helps a lot if you engaged alone and his E armor scaling is pretty cool, you'll have something like 80 armor at level 3-4. Could be compared with something like Leona support, but in my opinion he is a lot more helpful to the team.
Also isn't so dependent upon level and items (which is why he's an excellent support), if you coordinate well you can knockup all their team twice (meaning 26% armor pen through whole fight) in a teamfight and place your ult disruptive. Unless lane went well, you can't be the initiate tank, but he's still amazing in teamfights.
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On October 31 2011 19:05 bosiddon wrote:
does jarvan flag break shaco boxes
Yeah it does, I was just in a game as Jarvan and as soon as Shaco put a box down i happened to flag there and it killed it
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United States37500 Posts
@getpicture: I'm going to be very lenient here but don't push the envelope. It's fine that you have the opinion that Jarvan sucks ass but you're doing nothing to convince the rest of us.
I don't see how Jarvan is gimmicky but a champion like Riven isn't.
A lot of champions capitalize on the enemy team playing bad.
If people play Jarvan cause other OP champs are banned, doesn't that actually mean he's not bad cause he's a "tier' under OP champs?
He doesn't have skills to make enemy teams fall apart? This statement just boggles my mine. EQ is an AOE knock up that isn't an ultimate. Unlike Alistar, if you fail your combo, you don't push an enemy away into safety. W is an AOE slow. R is a fucking terrain block. How does Jarvan not disrupt?
If you play LoL everyday (I play almost everyday, I assume most people in this subforum do too), what champion isn't predictable?
Lastly, afaik, you aren't a tournament player either, so try not to use that as grounds to debase another user.
@Craton: We usually butt heads but I'd +1 you there if I could.
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On January 15 2012 16:02 NeoIllusions wrote:
@getpicture: I'm going to be very lenient here but don't push the envelope. It's fine that you have the opinion that Jarvan sucks ass but you're doing nothing to convince the rest of us.
I don't see how Jarvan is gimmicky but a champion like Riven isn't.
A lot of champions capitalize on the enemy team playing bad.
If people play Jarvan cause other OP champs are banned, doesn't that actually mean he's not bad cause he's a "tier' under OP champs?
He doesn't have skills to make enemy teams fall apart? This statement just boggles my mine. EQ is an AOE knock up that isn't an ultimate. Unlike Alistar, if you fail your combo, you don't push an enemy away into safety. W is an AOE slow. R is a fucking terrain block. How does Jarvan not disrupt?
If you play LoL everyday (I play almost everyday, I assume most people in this subforum do too), what champion isn't predictable?
Lastly, afaik, you aren't a tournament player either, so try not to use that as grounds to debase another user.
@Craton: We usually butt heads but I'd +1 you there if I could.
I don't really care either way, but riven doesn't have any dependent skill interaction like jarvan?
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On January 15 2012 10:58 getpicture wrote:1. i never said malphite was any good, lee sin's a lot better. 2. his cooldowns are long. go compare again. 3.there's no need to run from jarvan if he initiates team fight. his W shield slow is worthless because nobody is scared of him, and he only can use it once during team fights due to mana problems and cooldown. what do you do if you see amumu leading the charge? everyone spreads out or lose the game due to his ult. amumu's ult is game ending and heavily punishing. what can jarvan punish and win the game with? his combo? rubbish. none of his moves are game changing or deadly or even give those omfg bbq gotta get out of here jarvan's ult. think gp's ult kennen ult etc insert here ult. 4. jarvan can't solo the other fighter melee classes 1v1. if he can't handle a 1v1 he obviously brings nothing to teamfights. 5 strong duelists bring more to the table. some people think that these types of champs perform better in team fights like katarina. jarvan isn't even like katarina. 5.his Q's armor reduction is worthless. it is equivalent to doing 10-13% more damage over that duration against squishies. anyone can kill squishies . see here : http://i.imgur.com/fCaHI.jpg6. his passive is similar to ashe's passive except ashe's passive does a lot of damage late game. 7. W is useless shield. a simple crit or ranged poke removes this shield. costs so much mana. im using morgana shield spell immune gg. i'd use morgana to shield my allies. 8. jarvan's ult get can himself killed. aoe skillshots rape him, brand and malz nullzone.only ranged ally champs can attack his target. 9. melee champs are short shafted. in any game its always better to have more ranged than melee. melee champs have to provide insane utility to be used e.g alistar lee sin noc. massive CC nukes.
I didnt know that fearing a champion makes their slows more effective.
Noc had 1 cc, fear, and hes a jungler. Lee sins a jungler. Alistar is a support. Your argument is terrible.
"jarvans ult can get himself killed". Yeah. so can fiddlesticks, nocs, malphites, morganas, etc. point is, your stupid if you want an ultimate that makes you invulnerable for the duration.
His passive is nothing like ashes. Ashe gives her crit chance over time. Jarvan does percentage health damage every x seconds.
Jarvans a disrupter, not a duelist. You want someone who can 1v1? Go play riven udyr and gp then.
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On January 15 2012 12:51 getpicture wrote:
jarvan is gimmicky, and relies on enemy team to play bad. jarvan is rarely played. people only play him only because everyone else OP is banned. jarvan doesn't punish indecision/poor moves from enemy. he doesn't have to skills to make enemy teams fall apart. he is never banned and never will be because every single move is predictable and cannot achieve above average returns. the fact is you're not a tournament player says so. using your ego on TL isn't gonna to do anything.
pick your 5 champs out of the many, no one is afraid of the omfg jarvan.
User was warned for this post
for whatever it's worth, I'm more of a tournament player than anyone else in this conversation and I wrote this fucking guide and routinely dump on people with jarman both out of jangle and top lane. you're entitled to your opinion that there are better choices, but frankly I think that jarman has the best combination of damage output, disruption and team enhancing (via debuffs and buffs) in the game and think you're just a silly goose who's not worth talking to if you're not even going to acknowledge his strengths.
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SmashGizmo happens to be the defacto leader of Teamliquid's LoL community. SmashGizmo also happens to be Mogwai.
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I'm pretty sure neo is our fearless leader but smash is the only other one who could be in that category
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Jarvan buff
Jarvan IV
Mana per level increased to 40 from 30
Golden Aegis mana cost reduced to 65 from 75
Demacian Standard mana cost reduced to 55 from 60
This is actually pretty significant.
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ehhh, it's pretty minor. I mean, it's appreciated having a larger mana pool, but it's nothing huge.
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there jarvan got a buff which solves his mana problems a bit. the truth is barely anyone at riot games cares about jarvan because they dont play him. their focus is only tier 1 champs and only balancing it around that. despite kennen and rumble being strong and hard counters to poor play, the only champ to further.nerf is Ahri.
you will see in the coming months ahri will be further nerfed again and again as how xin zhao got repeatedly nerfed because noobs in solo queued complained about ganks.
a lot of the designers at riot games who develop their own champs would prefer their own designed champ to be not touched and balanced by others. this is out of respect because they believe that designers understand their heroes best and their core mechanics. this is obviously wrong. think about the ppl who designed chess/ any other game/sport.plenty of players outplay their creators. just because a person designed it, doesn't mean they understand balance at the highest levels. some new champions are being developed by the new graduates/employees(rotation work) to test their hand at game design- viktor/swain(reused) to give them the experience because they have nothing in their work portfolio.
anyways this is the last jarvan buff we will see. not every champ is designed for competitive/viable play. some are just for laughs/trollage to cause pain for opponents in solo queue. not saying jarvan is troll, but he fulfills a niche.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 17 2012 12:53 Mogwai wrote:
ehhh, it's pretty minor. I mean, it's appreciated having a larger mana pool, but it's nothing huge.
Oh? Of course with 0 testing I have no idea how this buff would work out, I just did some comparison to the Sion buff.
General:
Base mana increased to 200 from 175.
Mana per level increased to 40 from 25.
I think this is before the mastery remake, Sion gained 40 mana at level 1 and 255 mana at level 18. Jarvan buff gives him 180 more total mana with 10 mana reduction on his shield and 5 on his flag. After the buff Sion was able to pretty much do whatever he want without caring too much about mana as long as you grab some d-rings pre-mastery change. Now with the new mana mastery with the mana buff, shouldn't Jarvan's mana issue(his glaring weakness) be decreased enough for it to be significant?
This is all theorycraft and I do not claim this to be correct, I am just explaining my thought process.
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On January 17 2012 12:53 Mogwai wrote:
ehhh, it's pretty minor. I mean, it's appreciated having a larger mana pool, but it's nothing huge.
I dunno man, the costs add up. Look at talon, master yi, etc.
Also, remember the mana nerf on jarvan's Q. That added up as well.
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EPT
