Martial Cadence (Passive) Damage changed to physical from magic Damage changed to 6/8/10% (at levels 1/7/13) of the target's current health from 8% No longer procs spell effects such as Rylai's or Spell Vamp Increased the hitbox size of Demacian Standard when targeted by Dragon Strike
v1.0.0.125 - 2011-09-14
Added a targeting ring to Cataclysm Fixed a bug where Cataclysm was dealing less damage than intended at rank 2 and 3 Fixed an issue where certain skins had inconsistent model sizes
v1.0.0.123 - 2011-08-09
Cataclysm Jarvan will no longer follow the target while he is in the air during Cataclysm Cataclysm will now create the ring of terrain regardless of whether the enemy can be targeted or not Cataclysm will now be slightly more likely to push targets that the ring lands on into the center rather than out Fixed a bug where Cataclysm could be interrupted by movement displacing abilities such as Crystallize or Pillar of Filth Fixed a bug where Dragon Strike reduced the target's base armor rather than total armor
v1.0.0.121 - 2011-07-08
Demacian Standard Cooldown increased to 13 from 12 Damage reduced to 60/105/150/195/240 from 60/110/160/210/260 Dragon Strike damage reduced to 70/115/160/205/250 from 70/120/170/220/270
v1.0.0.120 - 2011-06-22
Demacian Standard Armor reduced to 10/13/16/19/22 from 10/14/18/22/26 Attack speed reduced to 10/13/16/19/22% from 10/14/18/22/26% Martial Cadence damage reduced to 8% from 10%
v1.0.0.118 - 2011-05-10
Dragon Strike Cooldown increased to 10/9/8/7/6 from 9/8/7/6/5 Mana cost increased to 45/50/55/60/65 from 40/45/50/55/60 Golden Aegis shield strength reduced to 50/90/130/170/210 from 50/100/150/200/250 Cataclysm damage reduced to 200/325/450 from 200/350/500 Fixed a bug where Jarman IV's banner caused a hitch the first time it was cast
v1.0.0.113 - 2011-03-15
Golden Aegis' PVP.net description no longer states it triggers automatically
Health ............. 420 (+90) Mana .............. 235 (+30) Damage .......... 50 (+3.4) Attack Speed .. 0.658 (+2.5%) Range ............ 175 Health Regen .. 7.0 (+0.7) Mana Regen .... 6.0 (+0.45) Armor ............. 14 (+3) Magic Res ....... 30 (+1.25) Mov. Speed ...... 315
Abilities: Passive - Martial Cadence: Jarman IV's first attack on a target deals 6/8/10% of their current Health as bonus physical damage (max: 400 damage). This effect cannot occur on the same target for 6 seconds.
Current health, not max health, so it's not really 2 times as good as bloodrazor proc, though it is still really goddamn strong. The idea behind this ability's design is that it encourages you to prance around and change targets a lot. There is some value in doing that, especially if you're built really tanky, but if you're packing a ghostblade, try to stick to their carry before min/maxing this ability's damage. You can also find ways to maximize cadence's damage output to speed up your jungle when you're low on mana, such as smacking everything once before throwing a flag, for max damage off of the proc. This also makes last hitting in lane a lot easier since it gives you a consistent and frankly, AWESOME, attack animation with your first attack on each guy.
Q - Dragon Strike: Jarman IV extends his lance, dealing 70/115/160/205/250 + 1.1 AD physical damage and lowering the Armor of all enemies in its path by 10/14/18/22/26% for 3 seconds.
If it contacts his standard it will pull Jarman IV to its location, knocking up enemies in his path.
CD: 10/9/8/7/6 Mana: 45/50/55/60/65 Range: 770
Very strong, physical damage, line AoE nuke. This ability is just awesome. Jarman's lance is a fucking living thing, capable of doing crazy shit like extending hella far and latching onto flags. There are two main reasons to level this over E: 1. Physical damage, higher base damage, and lower CD makes this a much harder hitting nuke than E. Harder hitting nuke = more lane presence or faster jungling speed. 2. Techinically speaking, this is the CC component of your E -> Q combo. Lowering this CD lowers the CD with which you can knockup opponents (granted, doing a 2nd Q on the same E is limited by the repositioning that happened since you tossed your E, but it is still useful to be able to do so ASAP).
W - Golden Aegis: Jarman IV forges a 50/90/130/170/210 + (20/25/30/35/40 per nearby enemy champion) health shield for 5 seconds, which slows surrounding enemies by 15/20/25/30/35% for 2 seconds.
CD: 20/18/16/14/12 Mana: 75 Range: 600
Pretty respectable damage shield with a pretty respectable AoE slow attached. Think turtle stance on double-triple the CD with Randuin's movespeed slow attached. Leveling this ability for the extra slow %, CD, and shield size will make you a slightly bigger pain in the ass to kill in teamfights and will do a pretty good job of slowing down asshole bruisers/assassins who are trying to chase your carries. However, this was inexplicably the target of the first nerf to Jarman and was also the 2nd hardest of all his nerfs (passive being the hardest). When it was in it's original state, I still had a hard time justifying more than 1 point in this, so needless to say I consider this the last ability to max most of the time on Jarman.
E - Demacian Standard: Passive: Jarman IV has 10/13/16/19/22% bonus Attack Speed and 10/13/16/19/22 bonus Armor.
Active: Jarman IV throws a Demacian flag to a nearby area, dealing 60/105/150/195/240 + 0.8 AP magic damage to enemies, and granting surrounding allied champions his passive bonus for 8 seconds.
CD: 13 Mana: 60 Range: 830
Passive is a nice persistent steroid, active sets up your bread and butter E -> Q combo and is a decent circular AoE nuke with big range. The main reasons you would level E over Q are: 1. Mana doesn't go up and it has a passive effect, so if you need to conserve mana in the jungle, E > Q (for instance, if you wanted to give early blues to a Kassadin or something). 2. Aura effect is boss vs. towers, dragon, and baron. This is less noticeable vs. Dragon/Baron because the armor reduction still helps the whole team take them down, but on towers, E >>>>>>> Q with a team.
For landing your E -> Q combo, I recommend not smart casting the E, and then as soon as you see him go for the E cast animation, smart casting Q since your mouse is already where the flag is going to land. The reason I don't recommend smart casting the E is that you'll frequently be just out of range and so smart casting the E will just make him run closer to where he needs to be to cast the E, whereas Q is a directional cast, so smart casting it will always fire. So if you're out of range, you'll just waste Q with a double smart cast.
R - Cataclysm: Jarman IV heroically leaps at an enemy champion, dealing 200/325/450 + 1.5 AD physical damage and creating an arena of impassable terrain around them for 3.5 seconds.
Activate again to collapse the wall.
CD: 120/105/90 Cost: 100/125/150 Range: 650
Jumping on people with spears is OP. This is Mandrop 2.0, in the tooltip that's meant to describe the technical nitty gritty of what Jarman is doing, they say he HEROICALLY leaps at an enemy champion. Real. Fucking. Hero. Stuff that's cool about this ability: 1. Massive single target nuke that combos really well off of the armor reduction from Q. 2. Doesn't care about CC reduction/immunity (FUCK YOU OLAF/SINGED/MUNDO, NO ESCAPE!). 3. Can trap people for AoE clusterfuck combos. 4. Can trap people and then E -> Q out of the area to be a coward and run away. 5. Can rape flash by forcing the flash via E -> Q and then following the flash with your R. Double jump so fucking strong. 6. If you start the ability and then halfway through your jump your opponent flashes away, your jump follows them and creates the terrain at the landing point of the flash. Very strong and causes a lot of bitching from baddies who don't understand this interaction. Stuff that sucks about this ability: 1. Getting silenced and then blinked out of (seriously, eat a dick Kassadin... eat a dick...) (you can't cancel the wall while silenced). 2. Spell Shields (nocturne, sivir, banshee's) block the damage and terrain. 3. If you lose LoS due to brush/invisibility mid cast, your spell completely fizzles. No damage, no wall, no nothing. Hella fucking gay.
Learn to not be a sped with this ability. It's really easy to convince yourself that it's a good idea to jump that Garen spinning on your silenced carry, but you really gotta think about the ramifications of every ult. It's so fucking easy to screw your team up with the wall from this, so learn from each mistake you make (you're gonna make a lot of em, npnp).
GUIDES
LANE JARMAN Summoner Skills: Flash + Exhaust/Ignite/Teleport Jarman kinda doesn't need Flash but it's just so much better than Ghost atm that I can't in good conscience even present that as a decision. I'll typically take ignite vs. seal healers like Irelia/Nidalee/Trynd and I'll take exhaust or TP otherwise.
Runes: Marks: ArPen Seals: Armor Glyphs: MRes Quints: AD or ArPen or Armor or MRes
Typically speaking I run AD Quints and scaling MRes Glyphs, however, there's a lot to be said for running Armor or MRes on your quints depending on the matchup and running flat MRes Glyphs vs. magic damage laners.
Skill Order: R > Q > E > W. You can get W whenever. There are games where I ignore it until level 13, and there are games where I'll grab it level 4, it's pretty situational.
Item Build:
Starting Items There are essentially 4 options: + x 5 In your standard AD bruiser matchup top, this is the best opening. + x 3 This is good for playing aggressive vs. mages. I.E. I would open boots vs. Ryze or Kassadin. + This is good for a passive lane where you're looking to open gold/10. I would use this vs. Rumble for instance. Super cheesy opening that tries to get early FB. Sometimes I'll try this when I'm purple and can get mid to help me take small gols to open, which will let me hit a very early level 2, at which point I'll go balls out aggressive for the kill. Not standard.
Core + ???? Boots are excellent to have in every game. My Jarman philosophy has evolved to the point where there is no other core because I find it necessary to be incredibly flexible when building Jarman these days.
Mogwai's Jarman Philosophy From your starting item + boots, there are essentially 7 items that need to be considered and I'm going to go into the reasoning behind why you would build each of them and then go through some examples of how I choose to build in games. Wriggle's is the most frequently bought of the items that follow. It gives great stats and great lane sustain and should be your #1 priority every game you open cloth. I almost always build a wriggle's. However, when I don't build a Wriggle's (vs. Mages), philosopher's stone is a good way to give yourself some lane staying power for cheap. Brutalizer is the most aggressive early item you can build as Jarman. It gives you great offensive stats and let's you turn an early kill into a crushing lane advantage. I will buy this whenever I get ahead of a squishy opponent. Hexdrinker is an underappreciated item. If you're laning vs. a magic damage dealer, Hexdrinker is quite strong and can be the nail in the coffin as a follow up to brutalizer if you get an early kill vs. Ryze or Kassadin. Phage is a generically strong item on Jarman and is the best way to give yourself some HP padding while simultaneously building more AD. I like phage after hexdrinker or wriggle's when I'm ahead of my opponent to give myself more insurance vs. jungle ganks and to make my lane opponent more scared of being unable to run from me. Aegis is a fantastic coverall defensive item. It's a great 3rd/4th item in any jarman build and makes him an even stronger teamfighter. The rarest of the 7, but still worth mentioning is HoG. When you get counterpicked (FUCK YOU RUMBLE), your best bet is usually to go Philo + Hog and play passively.
With that being said, my most common build orders look something like the following: wriggle's -> brutalizer -> phage -> aegis (winning a standard top lane) wriggle's -> philo -> aegis -> phage (losing a standard top lane) philo -> brutalizer -> hexdrinker -> wriggle's (winning vs. a caster) philo -> aegis -> hexdrinker -> phage (losing vs. a caster) philo -> hog -> phage -> aegis (FUCK YOU RUMBLE)
The key to using these items is to get a good feel for your lane and the larger game at hand and build whatever will help you the most. They are all good items on Jarman and with his kit being as flexible as it is, you'll do better by expanding your item horizons and using them flexibly.
Boots Options vs. + Ninja Tabi are actually really really cost efficient and if you're getting a Philostone anyway, you can build into Eleisa's Miracle for Tenacity as needed, but Mercs still end up taking my boots slots in 95% of my games.
Finishing Up + It's easy to find yourself with mercs + wriggle's + phage + hexdrinker + aegis + brutalizer, so if you do, Ghostblade and Trinity are super duper excellent gold sinks for any more money you might earn. Having those two as options give you a way to expand a basically complete build at 10K gold up to 14K gold.
Atma's is a strong item if you have aegis + phage and are looking for armor + AD. It's also a no brainer if you get warmog's as I'll talk about in a sec, but it's worth mentioning on it's own because it's still a super great item at 2-3K HP.
+ When you get sucked into a philo + hog opening and suddenly find yourself sitting on 3K gold, you can transition yourself to an old school Warmog's + Atma's + FoN build. I rarely do this anymore, but it is something worth considering if you're playing passively in lane, getting good farm and foresee a long game where you team doesn't need damage from you immediately.
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + +
Playstyle I've abandoned the old 21 defensive, stupidly tanky Jarman build in favor of this one so that you can play more aggressively in lane. I suggest early aggression with Jarman, but it's very matchup dependent. You have to get used to your damage output vs. the damage outputs of other top lanes. Don't go balls deep vs. a Pantheon or Riven early, they'll just kill you. Do go balls deep vs. a low level GP/Trynd, but play more farm oriented once they get some levels under their belt.
Jarman also does very very well vs. most casters mid. Most don't have an answer to his extremely quick E -> Q -> bash-their-fucking-face-in combo, so I actually suggest him frequently as a counter to Kassadin/Ryze mid, even though it's rare to find a team that will let you do that. He's especially good vs. bad Ryze's because his E -> Q combo can pull him through a root, so you can let yourself get rune prisoned as a bait and then E -> Q on his face when Ryze tries to just stand there and combo you.
JUNGLE JARMAN Summoner Skills: Flash + Smite You're a jungler, this isn't rocket science.
One clears faster and hits harder on ganks, the other clears with higher HP. It's a preference thing, you can really go either way.
Skill Order: R > Q > E > W. Starting EQQW.
Item Build:
Starting Items + In the new jungle I want gold/10 super badly, so I open this way to rush Philo.
Core + + + Standard double gold/10 + wriggle's. Wriggle's is too good to not buy it even if it is late by rushing gold/10s first.
What's Next From here, there are basically 2 items I'm looking to get. Aggressive next item that can lead to triforce rush or to tanking out a little bit. Balanced tanking stats, just generally a great next item.
Boots Options vs. + Ninja Tabi are actually really really cost efficient and if you're getting a Philostone anyway, you can build into Eleisa's Miracle for Tenacity as needed, but Mercs still end up taking my boots slots in 95% of my games.
Finishing Up It's a really good item and probably the best way to give yourself a damage boost out of the jungle.
I get Atma's out of the jungle more than I do out of lane because I find myself making a more concerted effort to get HP out of the jungle. It fits into the Philo -> HoG -> Wriggle's -> Phage -> Aegis -> (sell philo for) Atma's progression pretty perfectly and gives you a really solid 10K build that you can sit on while you wait for the gold you need to upgrade to Triforce.
// I typically turn my HoG into one of these to finish my build.
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + +
Playstyle Wolves -> Blue to start. Look for a gank. If you think you can level 2 gank for a kill or blowing a flash, do it. If you gank, go wolves -> wraiths -> red -> small gols, otherwise go wraiths -> wolves -> red -> small gols. After first jungle pass, look for ganks a lot. Jarman's 2 strengths in the jungle are AoE farming with E + Q and strong ganks, so split your time between those two as necessary.
LANE JARMAN Summoner Skills: Flash + Exhaust/Ignite Jarman kinda doesn't need Flash but it's just so much better than Ghost atm that I can't in good conscience even present that as a decision.
Masteries:0/21/9, where I'll only pull 1 out of utility in order to get improved Exhaust
This is designed to give you balanced tanking stats throughout the game with more frequent nimbleness procs with the splash of dodge in there.
Skill Order: R > Q > E > W. You can get W whenever. There are game where I ignore it until level 13, and there are games where I'll grab it level 4, it's pretty situational.
Item Build:
Starting Items + Best opening to lead into Philostone
Core + Philostone + boots is the only set piece of his laning build
What Next ? HoG is good to get in lanes where you get pushed off of creep or when there isn't much action going on elsewhere and it looks like the game won't just snowball out of control early. If you really need a rule of thumb, if you can get a HoG in under 10 minutes and you wouldn't rather have a brutalizer (discussed below) and there are less than 3 kills total in the game at that point, go for it. ? Brutalizer is good to get when you're bossing someone around in lane and think you'll be able to kill them with some extra damage. It gives you a lot of extra Oomph in your burst combo. Do not get this vs. a tank(y DPS) who gets an early armor item, get it vs. low armor squishies who you're ahead of and can afford to trade burst with to pull way ahead in burst exchanges. Either way, the first big ticket item I go for in lane is Warmog's. With my high base resistances from my spec and just being Jarman, the most useful defensive stat to spec for is HP and Warmogs is hands down the most efficient way to get a fuckton of HP.
Boots Options vs. + Ninja Tabi are actually really really cost efficient and since you're getting a Philostone anyway, you can build into Eleisa's Miracle for Tenacity as needed, but Mercs still end up taking my boots slots in 95% of my games.
Finishing Up #1 Priority after you have a decent HP pool, so I typically rush this after warmog's unless I desperately need MRes ASAP.
#1 Option for heavy Magic Resist and extremely cost efficient post-warmog's. This is the final piece of the Tanky DPS Trinity (Mog's, Atma's, FoN) and should usually be gotten after Atma's to round out your tanking stats.
#1 DPS item for it's cost. A no-brainer when you went brutalizer and sometimes I'll grab it prior to FoN vs. single AP teams.
Another great option for DPS, but it's much more expensive than Ghostblade and gives random other stats that won't necessarily dish out as much deeps, but will provide more utility. I like this earlier than Ghostblade if I didn't grab a brutalizer, but otherwise it's the 6th item usually
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + +
Playstyle When laning, it's best to take a solo vs. a character that can't outsustain you. Jarman's pretty decent vs. most carries, but if you put him against a tanky self healer with sustained DPS (lanewick, laneudyr, yorick, etc), he'll get worked. If you go bot lane, it needs to be in a double-stun and burst style lane with someone like Taric, Blitz, Alistar, or Leona (your lanemate needs to be mostly farm independent too since Jarman needs his farm). Jarman's a heavy burster with his E -> Q -> Passive smack combo, starting at level 2. His level 6 is also extremely strong because his R is also a nice nuke, giving him a pretty massive level 6 burst that packs 2 forms of uncounterable CC.
Skill Order: EQQW -> R > Q > E > W, UNLESS you're planning on giving up your 2nd blue, in which case go R > E > Q > W so that you can just clear using E to be more mana efficient.
Item Build:
Starting Items +
Core + + + Get your double gold/10 ASAP so that you have steady income while still giving up buffs and spending a lot of time ganking. With this build you're a ganker early who transitions into a tank, not a jungle farmer. Get your wriggles afterwards to give yourself some sustainability, jungle speed and buff/dragon control for the midgame
Boots Options vs. + Ninja Tabi are actually really really cost efficient and since you're getting a Philostone anyway, you can build into Eleisa's Miracle for Tenacity as needed, but Mercs still end up taking my boots slots in 95% of my games.
Finishing Up + + I usually build these 3 items in some order after my core. Warmog's is typically too late with this build and thus I tend to favor the extra damage and utility from Frozen Mallet in my HP slot.
Ghostblade is usually my last item, but I rarely get this far.
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + +
Playstyle Start blue with a leash, then look for level 2 ganks with your E -> Q. If you have none, you can do a blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> small gols -> back for Philo opening, but regrowth lets you be a prick with looking for ganks while regening and then ducking back into the jungle when appropriate, so abuse it. Spend a lot of time ganking lanes with this build, as the double gold/10 opening lets you ignore farming the jungle in favor of supporting lanes. Be sure to tell your lanes to help themselves to your jungle (seriously, if their lane is pushed or something, it's better for them to take your jungle than for it to just sit there unfarmed while you camp top waiting for a gank) and distribute buffs properly among your teammates after the first couple clears.
Without nimbleness, there's not enough reason to spec dodge runes, so instead stick to all armor seals for consistency.
Skill Order: EQQW -> R > Q > E > W. Always favor Q with this build, as your early levels are all about doing damage and you should get your first 2 blues with this path.
Item Build:
Starting Items + x5
Core + Standard Wriggle's rush, good for fast jungle clearing speeds.
What Next ? + ? If you can get them early and want to donate buffs and transition to more gank heavy play, grab quick gold/10s and switch to the build suggested in the above guide. ? Typically you need some HP, Phage gives you a nice balance of offensive threats along with the HP you need.
? Typically you need some HP, Sunfire gives you a nice balance of offensive threats along with the HP you need. ? A surprisingly good option most of the time. Very balanced defensive stats along with a little AD to keep your offense up.
Boots Options vs. Ninja Tabi are viable if you don't need the tenacity, but without a standard Philo in this build, Mercs are really your only option for tenacity, so they're almost always going to be your boots of choice.
Finishing Up Honestly, with this build, you have to adapt well to the needs of your team vs. the opposing team. I have less of a standard way to finish with this build than with the previous guides.
Example of a Balanced Final Item Build + + + + +
Playstyle Open E, take big wolf with 1 use of E -> Blue -> small wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems and find a gank. This build really relies on getting some extra income early to fund your razors -> wriggle's, otherwise you'll jungle too slowly to farm efficiently. Once you get wriggles, try to establish dragon control via ganks mid and bot and once you have an advantage, press a fight for dragon. Jarman is an excellent teamfighter with all his CC and his E's aura, so you should be able to take dragon control by forcing the issue mid and bot.
From there, use your item flexibility to fill whatever role your team needs. Get more damage if you have a solo tank getting beastly or tank the hell out if you need to be your team's primary tank. Farm jungle a lot, without gold/10, you need to continually clear jungle/lanes in order to get the items you'll need.
Niche Item Options +
These are good options if you need a big chunk of extra armor. They are both typically inferior to Atma's overall. I prefer both to Frozen Heart, but Frozen Heart isn't really terrible, it's mostly a preference thing.
+ These are situationally useful sources of more MRes if Mercs + FoN aren't enough.
+
+
Jarman's a decent carrier for these aura items if your team needs them and no one else can get them, but I've found that Jarman typically does better to build more selfishly than building for these. I still build them every once in a long while.
+ + Other than Ghostblade and Triforce, Jarman scales best offensively with BF Sword items because of his AD scaling (Thirster), and his flat armor reduction (Cleaver). IE is also a good fit because Ghostblade and Triforce both also give you crit.
If you built more DPSy than tanky, GA is the best 1-stop shopping option for defense on a melee character.
If you're as nooby as hyr0, built this item, typically multiples. If you actually wanna be good, don't.
From Jarmander to Jarizard, the Bravest Path Jarmander + To evolve into Jarmander, simply aquire a wriggle's lantern and sunfire cape, then get the blessing of the lizard elder. Upon recieving his blessing, Jarman will elvolve into the brave Jarmander, a mythical beast who doesn't afraid of anything. Use him wisely.
Jarmeleon + + + Once you have a Jarmander, you must foster his bravery and feed it with the awesome power of Hexdrinker and Guinsoo's Rageblade. These magical flaming swords will embolden your Jarmander to the point of reckless abandon, at which point he should be ready to slay the mighty Dargon and steal him fire to catalyze his transformation into Jarmeleon.
Jarizard + + + + + For only the bravest of the brave... Jarmeleon's hidden potential can be unleashed by adorning him with Shurelya's Reverie and Boots of Mobility. Basking in the cape of suns, lantern of wriggles, drinker of hexes, blade of rage of guinsoo (whatever the fuck that is, MIRITE!?), reverie of shurelya and boots of mobility, Jarman can evolve into his final form. This transformation can only be achieved by gathering friends to slay the dreaded Baron Nashor by using the power of friendship. After this mighty feat of teamwork, Jarmeleon will evolve... The dreaded Jarizard truly always kill, never die. If the game hasn't imploded upon the awesomeness that is now your character, feel free to active reverie, fly to the opposing Nexus and use Flame Whirl to win the game(nexus is ice type, fire attacks are super effective).
7/21/2011 - Massive update to pretty much everything to put it in the new format. Pretty much everything revised for the most recent patches and metagame.
8/16/2011 - Split out the Laning and Jungle Guides into their own sections for ease of use. Also updated the Jarman change log.
12/20/2011 - Guide Updated. All builds retired in favor of 2 new builds. Dunkmacia picture added.
Jarman is pretty fun. He is the ultimate tower dive baiter because his ult just lets him lulz when you get stuck in it while getting pounded by a tower.
lol, rewt's singed dived me yesterday at like 3/4 health when I had like 50 and I was just like, ignite -> ult, and we both died, lol. He was just standing there in the arena looking sad while the tower did 109382903189023 damage.
On March 03 2011 03:10 Mogwai wrote: lol, rewt's singed dived me yesterday at like 3/4 health when I had like 50 and I was just like, ignite -> ult, and we both died, lol. He was just standing there in the arena looking sad while the tower did 109382903189023 damage.
The impact does a ton of damage too actually. It has some rediculous Ad scaling too
Personally I think the thread should be renamed appropriately. A few months down the line, when the novelty of "Jarman" has worn off, we're going to get a new thread for no reason because no search results came up when someone did a thread search for "Jarvan".
the novelty will never wear off, but w/e, I can't change the title, if someone else can and wants to, W/E, you guys are no fun. I have no intention of ever calling him anything else though.
On March 03 2011 07:02 TheYango wrote: Personally I think the thread should be renamed appropriately. A few months down the line, when the novelty of "Jarman" has worn off, we're going to get a new thread for no reason because no search results came up when someone did a thread search for "Jarvan".
[16:48] Mogwai: like, one of the things he says when you're telling him to do shit is, "for my father, the king!" [16:48] Mogwai: and everytime I laugh at how stupid that is [16:48] Scar: LOLOLOL [16:49] Mogwai: like, he's one of those assholes that thinks he's being really subtle about bragging [16:49] Mogwai: but instead, it just comes off as douchey, lol
On March 03 2011 08:29 phyvo wrote: Not to seem like an ignorant person, but being ignorant I'm not sure why Jarman is so funny. Why is Jarman so funny?
one might as well ask why the sky is blue. I daresay Jarman is so funny though because he takes himself so seriously and is surrounded by goofy assholes like Teemo and Mundo.
On March 03 2011 08:29 phyvo wrote: Not to seem like an ignorant person, but being ignorant I'm not sure why Jarman is so funny. Why is Jarman so funny?
Basically 2 people think he's funny and TL bandwagons.
On March 03 2011 08:29 phyvo wrote: Not to seem like an ignorant person, but being ignorant I'm not sure why Jarman is so funny. Why is Jarman so funny?
Basically 2 people think he's funny and TL bandwagons.
as stated, shake started it and I'm propagating it. this is made in TL and supported by TL, we are the trendsetters.
On March 03 2011 10:59 Caller wrote: THIS JUST IN
PRESS E SHIFT Q FOR INSTANT KNOCKUP CAST
YOU DONT EVEN NEED TO AIM Q AS SOON AS YOU CAST E
...k? so you just learned what smart casting is or something?
On March 03 2011 08:29 phyvo wrote: Not to seem like an ignorant person, but being ignorant I'm not sure why Jarman is so funny. Why is Jarman so funny?
one might as well ask why the sky is blue. I daresay Jarman is so funny though because he takes himself so seriously and is surrounded by goofy assholes like Teemo and Mundo.
On March 03 2011 16:06 Mogwai wrote: I think Jarman and Madred's Bloodrazor would probably get along quite well, what do you guys think?
You aren't really autoattacking that much, your Q and E are going the damage, and more AS isn't going to make your passive proc more. Sticking with tanky atmas, triforce or urgot builds looks safer and cheaper.
On March 03 2011 03:10 Mogwai wrote: lol, rewt's singed dived me yesterday at like 3/4 health when I had like 50 and I was just like, ignite -> ult, and we both died, lol. He was just standing there in the arena looking sad while the tower did 109382903189023 damage.
On March 03 2011 16:32 Kaneh wrote: can you farm for that long? and be squishy squishy melee carry with no anti cc =X
well, squishy to nukes anyways
people are farming triforces :p. Who says you gotta rush it though anyway? I'm mostly thinking just open with a razor (dragon control) and BV rush and then finish your BRs.
On March 03 2011 16:06 Mogwai wrote: I think Jarman and Madred's Bloodrazor would probably get along quite well, what do you guys think?
You aren't really autoattacking that much, your Q and E are going the damage, and more AS isn't going to make your passive proc more. Sticking with tanky atmas, triforce or urgot builds looks safer and cheaper.
wtf are you smoking, I autoattack a ton with him. Bloodrazor + tanky has been a great anti-tank build forever on guys like Xin and WW, and I think Jarman would do well with it for the same reasons. Of course it's a situational thing, but I find people throwing tank spamming teams out there more and more so it's got me thinking about how to use Jarman to counter them. I still plan on sticking with tanky ghostblade in general, but I think there's at least a lot of merit to BR as an item to counter tanky comps on him.
best way to play jarman the fourth is to take a solo lane and say stuff like "i'm setting out on my quest" and "the dungeon boss seems strong" in all-chat and then push lanes by yourself wherever your team is not and then every time you die say "this rpg is hard!" and when your teammates bitch at you say "the NPCs seem aggressive in this town, he remarked" and evry time you kill baron or dragon or level up say something like "i've defeated the dungeon boss!" or "i've acheived a new level and new skills!"
followed the jungle build lol, what a monster rofl. ive never faced against one yet, but i know last game if they killed me we won the team fight, and if they didn't i killed their squishies pretty easily, pretty fun to play as well
Caller owns tryhards all day. Boots of mobility//WoTA//Mejai annie #1. Seems like jarvan jungles too slowly to gank a lot, but seems beastly mid/lategame.
On March 05 2011 11:16 Slayer91 wrote: Caller owns tryhards all day. Boots of mobility//WoTA//Mejai annie #1. Seems like jarvan jungles too slowly to gank a lot, but seems beastly mid/lategame.
You just need boots of ionia so that when you carry your blue buff you want walk around ult ganking all day. For real though, at a certain point the slower you jungle, the more you need to gank to be successful. Mogwai used to play Pantheon as a jungle but focused on ganking because otherwise he'd get left behind in farm. I imagine Jarvan is similar but his pre-6 gank is weaker.
You just need boots of ionia so that when you carry your blue buff you want walk around ult ganking all day. For real though, at a certain point the slower you jungle, the more you need to gank to be successful. Mogwai used to play Pantheon as a jungle but focused on ganking because otherwise he'd get left behind in farm. I imagine Jarvan is similar but his pre-6 gank is weaker.
idk, one game i played he was definitely weaker cause of bad ganks, but i had Heart of gold and Avarice blade from ghostblade and i think i did fine later on which is where hes suppose to be strong anyways.
i fall behind in shaco as well if my ganks dont work out, cause i try so often, i just build more gold/10 items and its fine XD
I feel jarvan could be a pretty abusive jungler if he goes E faster and abuses the extra armor and attack speed with a wriggles. That however would reduce his ganking ability a lot
WOW at the second part's 1:40, soooo gooooooooddddddddd. Well played Smash, Well played (that seriously scared me). Hotshot as usually seeking other people to blame
On March 05 2011 14:44 Phrost wrote: I feel jarvan could be a pretty abusive jungler if he goes E faster and abuses the extra armor and attack speed with a wriggles. That however would reduce his ganking ability a lot
also I'm so confused by this... are you implying that there is a situations where you would not max E first?!?!?!?!?!? E is just hands down his best ability, always max first except soloing vs. Kassadin.
just bought jarvan and am having so much fun with him his e-q knockup combo is so much fun and early game nukes for so much damage (didnt find out about smartcast until i read this thread)
his ult is a lot of fun as well. TRYIN TO TOWERDIVE? EAT TOWERSHOTS IN MY ARENA i love building frozen mallet and tiamat on jarvan the frozen mallet for the 700HP/20AD and the slow and tiamat for the 50 AD and HP regen. both great early game items
i get berserker greaves for the 25% attack speed and from there it depends on the opponent compo
if they're armor heavy i get a last whisper and start building towards IE if they're really squishy i build another tiamat and go towards IE
since jarvan's a great initiator (so much cc) i try to beef him up with a frozen heart or GA.
my build for jarvan : dorans blade berserker greaves phage tiamat frozen mallet tiamat BF sword GA IE/Bloodthirster
i get flash/ghost on him so i can chase down and ult heroes running away. i dunno how well his ult scales on AD but with 2 tiamats and an IE they'll die before the arena clears
Oh lord, this guide seems so cool! I always wondered how can you help Jarvan's early game and here is the solution - if you buy both mallet and tiamat you have great early game, yay!
Anyone care to give some anti-Jarvan advice? I feel like I always lose when the enemy team has him, basically how to counter him. Obviously his ult is vulnerable to blink skills but other than that he just does so much damage for such a tanky char and with the knockup he feels like xin on steroids.
Tiamat into Mallet earlygame too good. Get dangerous fast. Double Tiamats to cause havoc with ult does have a nice, Calle-esque ting to it. Maybe better to amp your lategame up some more, and go quadruple, tho.
I tried a few games on a build that Locodoco suggests that is imba, 2-3HOG>sunfire/banshee>atmas 0/21/9, maybe i haven't been playing it correctly, i just felt like it was weak till the point u get atma to dish out some dmg, otherwise, after ur ulti and i feel pretty useless if no one is focusing me...
On March 11 2011 15:08 Shizuru~ wrote: I tried a few games on a build that Locodoco suggests that is imba, 2-3HOG>sunfire/banshee>atmas 0/21/9, maybe i haven't been playing it correctly, i just felt like it was weak till the point u get atma to dish out some dmg, otherwise, after ur ulti and i feel pretty useless if no one is focusing me...
please enlighten me.
his base damage is pretty alright, so if you do QEQWQR -> R > Q > W > E and spec straight tank you can do pretty well for yourself by just running around like an idiot CCing people and whacking them with your passive. It plays sorta like how Garen plays, but with better CC and single target damage, worse AoE and no Garen ult. This is where my builds started with jarman but I'm not really a big fan anymore.
Nowadays I like ghostblade -> tanky. Most jungle games look like Wriggles -> Ghostblade -> Banshee's + GA, and most lane games look like Brutalizer -> Banshee's/Funfire -> Ghostblade -> Funfire/Banshee's -> Atma's. Your Q does some pretty sillytarded damage with a brutalizer and I like having that lethality early.
Trinity is also really blown out of proportion on Jarman. It's pretty good, but it's not omgwtfbbq awesome like some people seem to think.
his ulti is really buggy for me, the wall generated sometimes does not trap the target within it, some times only myself i alone in it, and some times people can move/glitch through the walls.... and some times there isn't even walls that shows up -.-
On March 12 2011 14:41 Shizuru~ wrote: his ulti is really buggy for me, the wall generated sometimes does not trap the target within it, some times only myself i alone in it, and some times people can move/glitch through the walls.... and some times there isn't even walls that shows up -.-
I often flash just around the time Jarman ults me and I end up inside the wall, Jarman outside it. Seems to leave them confused.
On March 09 2011 05:26 PBC wrote: just bought jarvan and am having so much fun with him his e-q knockup combo is so much fun and early game nukes for so much damage (didnt find out about smartcast until i read this thread)
his ult is a lot of fun as well. TRYIN TO TOWERDIVE? EAT TOWERSHOTS IN MY ARENA i love building frozen mallet and tiamat on jarvan the frozen mallet for the 700HP/20AD and the slow and tiamat for the 50 AD and HP regen. both great early game items
i get berserker greaves for the 25% attack speed and from there it depends on the opponent compo
if they're armor heavy i get a last whisper and start building towards IE if they're really squishy i build another tiamat and go towards IE
since jarvan's a great initiator (so much cc) i try to beef him up with a frozen heart or GA.
my build for jarvan : dorans blade berserker greaves phage tiamat frozen mallet tiamat BF sword GA IE/Bloodthirster
i get flash/ghost on him so i can chase down and ult heroes running away. i dunno how well his ult scales on AD but with 2 tiamats and an IE they'll die before the arena clears
u should post this on leaguecraft. will get so many upvotes.
On March 12 2011 14:41 Shizuru~ wrote: his ulti is really buggy for me, the wall generated sometimes does not trap the target within it, some times only myself i alone in it, and some times people can move/glitch through the walls.... and some times there isn't even walls that shows up -.-
I often flash just around the time Jarman ults me and I end up inside the wall, Jarman outside it. Seems to leave them confused.
i'm competent enough to tell if they flashed or simply walked out of the arena...
did some testing today and figured out something, if u cast ulti on some1 with banshee or morg shield shield on, u will jump to the target but nothing else happens, no demacian glory. If the target is running away in a straight line if u cast ur ulti, depending on their move speed, because of the nature of the ulti has like 1-2 second delay before the wall is actually up, they can escape in time before the arena wall shows up even if u cast on them on time...
Didn't even go practice, nothing, just went and played. Went 10-1 ffs. This hero is retardedly OP. Like retardedly, people I meet who play him don't even understand that. I was collecting kills with purely tank items, and dove nexus turrets (successfully, picked up a double kill) with my ultimate when mid tower wasn't even down. He deals so much damage with pure tank items and farms like a beast. Think of it, this hero has tanky base stats, a guaranteed sheen proc (stronger than Sheen actually), 3 AoE disables, a shield that has 450 HP (150% of Sion) with 0 AP, 2 leaps one of which may be used defensively and 2 AoE nukes to afk farm 1000 creepwaves. Did I mention armor reduction, a retarded DPS steroid and laughable manacosts lol? I don't know who designed him, but I fear had he been given at least a bit more freedom, Jarvan would be ranged. But what the hell, he is ranged already with his instant-hitting Q and E that cost no mana.
Currently running 21/8/1 with Ghost/Flash in duo lane with ArP reds/quintz and yellow/blue AD. Been noticing that I have to be quite conservative with my mana since I don't have the mana regen runes. Are mana regen glyphs worth getting or are those better used somewhere else? Doesn't seem that the 6.4? AD I get from my seals/gylphs are worth it and I think using my mana regen/level seals would allow me to poke a lot more.
Glyphs I have available: flat CR, flat AD, MR/level, flat aspd?
On March 22 2011 22:44 L wrote: You could honestly remove his ult and he'd still be playable. That's how retarded this hero is.
I once made the mistake of playing Ashe with Cleanse / Ghost on a normal game. Jarman just ulted me and farmed me every teamfight, even though I did pretty well in the laning phase. Either your squishy champion has an in-built flash like Ez or Corki, or summoner Flash is mandatory on normal games just because Jarvan could be on the enemy team.
On March 22 2011 22:44 L wrote: You could honestly remove his ult and he'd still be playable. That's how retarded this hero is.
I once made the mistake of playing Ashe with Cleanse / Ghost on a normal game. Jarman just ulted me and farmed me every teamfight, even though I did pretty well in the laning phase. Either your squishy champion has an in-built flash like Ez or Corki, or summoner Flash is mandatory on normal games just because Jarvan could be on the enemy team.
you say that as if that wasn't the case pre-Jarman, lol. ever since the cleanse nerfs, flash has been mandatory on both casters and ranged carries without built-in flashes (and is still prominent on those with built-in flashes).
On March 22 2011 22:24 Fawkes wrote: Currently running 21/8/1 with Ghost/Flash in duo lane with ArP reds/quintz and yellow/blue AD. Been noticing that I have to be quite conservative with my mana since I don't have the mana regen runes. Are mana regen glyphs worth getting or are those better used somewhere else? Doesn't seem that the 6.4? AD I get from my seals/gylphs are worth it and I think using my mana regen/level seals would allow me to poke a lot more.
Glyphs I have available: flat CR, flat AD, MR/level, flat aspd?
I run 0/9/21 with mana regen blues and yellows and armor pen reds and quints in lane. His Q and E harass is too strong to skimp on mana regen IMO. I'm just not a big fan on the offensive tree (esp in lane). I have started experimenting with 21 offensive builds in the jungle on trundle/nocturne/jarman and they are fast and gank hard, but I'm still not sure I'm sold on them.
On April 19 2011 04:47 r.Evo wrote: Mogwai, mind updating the OP? =P
Skills are pretty much always: EQEQER -> R > E > Q > W
vs.
QEQWQR -> R > Q > W > E
in your last post is kinda confusing.
Same for runes in terms of which to jungle/which to lane. I kinda want to look into OP Jarman solo top now that renek/teemo got nerfed a little.
plzplzplz?
<3
Max QE first if you have no trouble, QW first if you do have trouble or if they have a roamer. Need lvl 1 W in either case for the slow.
level 1 W? real fknoob thing to say. Q is #1 for both lane presence and jungling speed. If you need more level 1 utility than Q, grab E for team aura and brush checking.
HoG nerf hit him less hard than most IMO. I hate saying this cause I know it makes me sound like an enormous scrub, but seriously the top elo guys saying that HoG stack was the correct way to play Jarman were being extremely narrow minded.
On April 20 2011 06:14 NeoIllusions wrote: Well, he has passive armor, so of course it doesn't hurt him as much. But still, he's obviously less tanky now than last patch.
I still liked the double HoG into Triforce. I usually built Atma right after. Dat armor, Smash.
Anyways, he's in a good place right now imoimo.
Alternately, I never built more than 1 HoG anyway, so now I just get my funfire faster if I'm straight tanking out.
Aegis is always good as long as you're giving your teammates benefits from it. It's actually worse gold-wise early in the game when your team isn't grouping up as much.
It's not like defensive items magically get cheaper as time goes on, so other than tying up an item slot (a legitimate argument for some champs) Aegis doesn't get any worse lategame than it was midgame.
I just recently started playing Jarman and my goodness am I just destroying things. Definitely liking the builds and recommendations from TL so far. The hexdrinker is a surprisingly better item than I use to think now.
I get trinity force, it's the way to go. The 150% dmg after spell cast is really good...
You go in E Q Stab
R Stab
W Stab
Q Stab
EQ Stab
I used to max E first, that was a mistake. Definitely max out Q and W if you want to tank. Q huge damage, and W is just too good in team fight. Overall amazing fun hero to play, the EQ combo is clunky and will miss if people know how to dodge it. I suggest you use the combo when you're chasing, as the enemy path is predictable.
Also the slow from W... holy shit it's good haha
I personally go item: Doran shield Mercury boot Phage Trinity force BansheeVeil
in that order. Later on you want to be more tanky, of course... I think late late game when u have 1 slot open you can definitely grab some damage item, but I havn't figured out which one is the best...
In team fight you want to approach from the side, you want to flank. The idea is to let your MAIN tank (you are not a true tank imho) go through the front and you cut in from the back and jump the squish (veigar, catalyn, ryze...) and make them go panic and run. Then you can turn back and wreck the people who havn't run out yet.
On April 20 2011 20:43 evanthebouncy wrote: In team fight you want to approach from the side, you want to flank. The idea is to let your MAIN tank (you are not a true tank imho) go through the front and you cut in from the back and jump the squish (veigar, catalyn, ryze...) and make them go panic and run. Then you can turn back and wreck the people who havn't run out yet.
Jarman definitely can fit the role of the main tank (although not really with Triforce, needs more tank items for that). If you get a bit lucky with how the fight goes, you can even Q multiple times on one E afaik. R provides loads of CC if used well and W is pretty strong for tanking purposes as well.
On April 20 2011 20:43 evanthebouncy wrote: In team fight you want to approach from the side, you want to flank. The idea is to let your MAIN tank (you are not a true tank imho) go through the front and you cut in from the back and jump the squish (veigar, catalyn, ryze...) and make them go panic and run. Then you can turn back and wreck the people who havn't run out yet.
Jarman definitely can fit the role of the main tank (although not really with Triforce, needs more tank items for that). If you get a bit lucky with how the fight goes, you can even Q multiple times on one E afaik. R provides loads of CC if used well and W is pretty strong for tanking purposes as well.
i know but i really prefer not to be the center of the focus unless I have to. If we have someone like rammus I'd really prefer him to initiate first so I get ample time to jump the squish
Basically, Jarman's role can range anywhere from Assassin to Primary Tank and everywhere in between depending on your builds/needs of your team. I tend to be on the more offensive side in the jungle and on the defensive side in lane, but I tend to fall more along the lines of Melee Carry or Bruiser than the real extremes.
Even though I failed and tried to cool down the infernal Jarmander with a cold frozen heart since the horrible hordes of evildoers with swords and sticks ran at me.
Why do you prefer your AD/Arpen/AS setup over lets say ArPen/AS + Mres/Level blues? My standard on most junglers is +12 ArPen / +14% AS)
I played around a little bit and while it slows down your jungling by about 15-20s it scales so much better during midgame.
Also, personally, I find Jarman pretty bad at counterjungling simply because he clears his own crap so quickly. Do you invade on the first 1-2 runs at all?
On March 03 2011 02:40 Mogwai wrote: (...) Warmog's - I'm not a big fan of this item, but several top jarman's run a warmog's rush -> atma's build. (...)
Uh huh huh, someone just called Caller a "several top jarman's"
He has built in armor and with armor + MR runes and merc treads you have ~100 armor + ~70 MR without any other items. So health is extremely beneficial and works really well with him. A lot more than other tanky champs because of his built in defenses. Warmogs is one of the best tanking items because of how more armor/MR gives diminishing returns, so health can give you more EHP. It's weakness mainly is you don't have armor/MR and only health when you first get it and then you need to stack it. But Jarvan is a really good farmer and has built in armor, so he kind of eliminates those problems, or at least diminishes the weaknesses of warmogs slightly.
Having a Taric on your team with jarvan is also beneficial as taric's armor aura along with jarvans give the team a HUGE armor boost. Add in an aegis and you're talking about the entire team having +68 armor (30 from taric, 26 from jarvan, and 12 from aegis), plus 15 MR, 8 damage (53 with taric ult active), and 26% AS. That is literally retarded lol.
i do something like 16/3 (armor) /11 , my runes are attackspeed reds, apen quints with armor yellows, and almost never finish the jungle in 3:40, its close to 4:00 usually, and my hp is really low after that
I believe with no help that my 21/0/9 speed is ~3:45 (with help it's about 3:40, slightly less). But it's too low to gank without backing for boots first. I don't actually mind this since I like having boots before ganking and I like my gank threat to be everywhere rather than just top/bot depending on purple/blue. Meh, maybe I'll do some optimization tests tonight.
3:34 with 118 hp with no leash with Armor Pen Marks and Quints, Armor Seals, MRes/Level Glyphs, 1 AD Quint, and 21/0/9 masteries. I think I shaved maybe 1-2 seconds with some super pro crits.
On May 03 2011 08:11 Mogwai wrote: 3:34 with 118 hp with no leash with Armor Pen Marks and Quints, Armor Seals, MRes/Level Glyphs, 1 AD Quint, and 21/0/9 masteries. I think I shaved maybe 1-2 seconds with some super pro crits.
HOW. DO . YOU. DO . IT.
no leash? jesus christ. Did you use Q E Q as in the guide? also do you change targets to use your passive? i tried that but it wasnt really worth it. do you ever knock up the monsters?
yea, you just gotta get double knockups off of each flag after blue. When doing this though, EQQ. QEQ better with a leash, but without a leash you get more out of the armor.
"Okay, easy lane lets try that warmogs rush thing." -> Philo -> HoG -> Boots -> Warmogs "Oh, guess I'm our main tank. FML." -> Negatron -> Chainmail. "Awww, fuck, carries suck.. need... to.... DEMACIAAAA..." ---> Atmas "Can't... keep.... up...." ------> PD "D E M A C I A A A A A A . . . . . . !!!" --------> Bloodthirster/Banshees.
The end.
(I like banshees more than FoN when I don't really need the movespeed. Is the regen from FoN still superior to the increased health+spellblock?)
I have never seen a champ that can 1v3 towerdive, come out with 75% health and a penta kill (because the silly teammates tried to come help, vs a jarman lol how foolish). Ok maybe I exaggerate slightly, but good thing not many people at my shit elo realize how OP he is yet, time to make my duo partner abuse for elo gain huehue
On May 04 2011 19:45 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Jarman is currently the most OP champ in the game, does anyone else agree with this?
Was pretty sure he was going to be fotm before I started playing him. After trying him out, Jarvan most definitely OP imho. No other tanky dps has as much range, cc (with not one, but two jumps) and laning power (can also be a strong jungler with ridiculous ganks). He has as much if not more survivability and damage/burst. Add on one of the best escape kits in the game and you get the OP monster that is Jarvan.
Both his CCs also are unaffected by both QSS and Cleanse, which is very very rare. Well, I guess he also has his shield but that's just a bonus I think
you guys I was playing Kog Maw and jarman was killing me 1v1 easy, obviously tanky dps is too strong and we should nerf randuins and thornmail (i had 3 pantom danser and i could not kill! and he was run to fast for me to run away from him,)
I cannot for the life of me channel the power of Jarman. I never feel like I'm big enough of a threat / tanky monster....but so far nobody has let me have a solo lane.
Should I just force a solo lane to unlock the true power of earth and fire?
Jarman is OP. First time I picked him I jungled and made a Jarizard. We won the game despite my lack of teamwork, They just fed trying to fight 4v5 while I just knocked towers and slayed dungeon bosses. Then I would just pop into the 4v5 and say DEMACIA while popping their carry and then just EQ out so I didn't get killed for God's sake. Ended up selling all my items and bought better tanky stuff so I could just walk up and destroy the nexus. OK I lost the second game because I don't have the armour runes, and died trying to jungle. But I got a triple kill in the Jungle 1v3 out side of dragon on twisted treeline.
On May 05 2011 00:33 Lanzoma wrote: I cannot for the life of me channel the power of Jarman. I never feel like I'm big enough of a threat / tanky monster....but so far nobody has let me have a solo lane.
Should I just force a solo lane to unlock the true power of earth and fire?
Jarman can rape wherever he is, Jarman can go top and rape, Jarman can go mid and rape, Jarman can go jungle and rape, Jarman can even go bot duo lane and rape, just get double kill on enemies all day, flag + lance harass and shit is so OP wtfffff
just the numbers are mindblowing, he is so stupid, nevermind the ridiculous utility of his cc
50% attack speed and 50 armor steroid
high damage line nuke with good scaling and a sick multiplier (free LW LOL)
etc
You can literally go down the line and point to every part of every ability he has and say "this is too strong. this is too strong. this is too strong."
On May 05 2011 03:36 HazMat wrote: lance lance we're falling apart to half time.
We can't be friends anymore :|
EDIT:
Real post about Jarman - it's funny when pubbies complain that Jarman's ulti is useless because everyone takes Flash, but they don't realize the value of making someone flash really early in a fight means that they're dead if anyone else on your team catches them.
So in the up and coming patch to the League of Legends™ Jarban is going to have some damage taken away from his abilities, but most importantly Q is gaining a second of cooldown. Will this be the end of the double knock ups that are so key to Jarman's jungle? No he should still be able to double pop at level 2 with a blue. The real Nerf™ from this patch is actually a sneaky one. Its to his W. Our favorite aoe slow/sheild is now going to be less effective as the CC reduction items will become very popular. RIP Jarizard. Q_Q
In response to the post above, I am a Pantheon player and if you think these nerfs are enough to merit a RIP, you are a major drama queen and should just gtf over it. Jarman will be fine, W was his worst skill anyway.
On May 10 2011 03:54 Mogwai wrote: In response to the post above, I am a Pantheon player and if you think these nerfs are enough to merit a RIP, you are a major drama queen and should just gtf over it. Jarman will be fine, W was his worst skill anyway.
On May 10 2011 03:54 Mogwai wrote: In response to the post above, I am a Pantheon player and if you think these nerfs are enough to merit a RIP, you are a major drama queen and should just gtf over it. Jarman will be fine, W was his worst skill anyway.
The real people being fucked by these changes are Blitz and Kassadin anyways. Silence being counted as CC sigh.
On May 10 2011 03:54 Mogwai wrote: In response to the post above, I am a Pantheon player and if you think these nerfs are enough to merit a RIP, you are a major drama queen and should just gtf over it. Jarman will be fine, W was his worst skill anyway.
The real people being fucked by these changes are Blitz and Kassadin anyways. Silence being counted as CC sigh.
Blitz's silence is like .5 seconds to begin with, not sure he cares terribly much ... that seems more like a silence designed purely to interrupt channels more than anything else. Kassadin, Soraka, and especially Cho get hit hard though.
On May 10 2011 03:54 Mogwai wrote: In response to the post above, I am a Pantheon player and if you think these nerfs are enough to merit a RIP, you are a major drama queen and should just gtf over it. Jarman will be fine, W was his worst skill anyway.
The real people being fucked by these changes are Blitz and Kassadin anyways. Silence being counted as CC sigh.
yeah blitz silence is only half a second it's more of a lol can't use your spells at that moment thing zzz edit: tat guy said it already =(
The good Blitzcranks punished you for that split second, it's actually a surprisingly damaging hit ;x Consider that the difference with the nerf could be that where once he could silence you and the projectile from Taric landed, it wouldn't land until after the target Flashed away.
Edit: Friend put it best
that sucks i was pretty good at stopping ppl jumping out with that .5 seconds -_-
On May 10 2011 04:05 Southlight wrote: The good Blitzcranks punished you for that split second, it's actually a surprisingly damaging hit ;x Consider that the difference with the nerf could be that where once he could silence you and the projectile from Taric landed, it wouldn't land until after the target Flashed away.
On May 10 2011 04:05 Southlight wrote: The good Blitzcranks punished you for that split second, it's actually a surprisingly damaging hit ;x Consider that the difference with the nerf could be that where once he could silence you and the projectile from Taric landed, it wouldn't land until after the target Flashed away.
Edit: Friend put it best
that sucks i was pretty good at stopping ppl jumping out with that .5 seconds -_-
But still, are you sure changing the duration from .5 to .4 will be such a huge hit that good Blitzcranks won't punish you anymore?
.325(if using mercs) and it wont matter in EVERY situation, but there are some where it will definitely be the difference between an escape and a kill
On May 10 2011 07:41 r.Evo wrote: Anyone know how this "tenacity" will effect Nasus W so far?
Also, does it work like: Merc = -35% duration of CC, other items -25%?
Tenacity will affect Wither exactly in the same way as Merc Treads affect it now, reducing the duration and cutting out the most powerful last few seconds from the spell. And yes, 25 Tenacity = 25% reduced CC duration.
On May 10 2011 03:44 Sabin010 wrote: So in the up and coming patch to the League of Legends™ Jarban is going to have some damage taken away from his abilities, but most importantly Q is gaining a second of cooldown. Will this be the end of the double knock ups that are so key to Jarman's jungle? No he should still be able to double pop at level 2 with a blue. The real Nerf™ from this patch is actually a sneaky one. Its to his W. Our favorite aoe slow/sheild is now going to be less effective as the CC reduction items will become very popular. RIP Jarizard. Q_Q
Actually, the difference in everything is barely noticable.
I've discovered the secrets of Jarvan. So I was messing around today, I had full items and triple elixirs when I noticed that when I /danced, Jarvan's character model moves like an inch in front of where he actually is. You can tell since the elixir aura doesn't move for the /dance animation.
it's the same for Xin Zhao, that fucker goes all over the place.
also, just a quick update, my current cookie-cutter build on Jarman is cloth (vs. physical laner) or boots (vs. magic laner) to open -> boots + brutalizer -> warmog's -> merc treads -> Atma's + FoN -> Ghostblade -> Triforce. It's fucking crazy strong. I've latched onto Warmog's recently because teams seem to now expect Jarman to be a primary tank (which I don't really like doing, but if that's how they build around your Jarman pick, you kinda gotta just roll with it and build as such).
On May 17 2011 00:58 Mogwai wrote: it's the same for Xin Zhao, that fucker goes all over the place.
also, just a quick update, my current cookie-cutter build on Jarman is cloth (vs. physical laner) or boots (vs. magic laner) to open -> boots + brutalizer -> warmog's -> merc treads -> Atma's + FoN -> Ghostblade -> Triforce. It's fucking crazy strong. I've latched onto Warmog's recently because teams seem to now expect Jarman to be a primary tank (which I don't really like doing, but if that's how they build around your Jarman pick, you kinda gotta just roll with it and build as such).
I just did your build, and I came to a conclusion:
Whatever build you do, you will tank like a boss and hit like a truck with any build you do with jarman.
He just scales very well in both directions, so you can vary your levels of hitting like a truck and tanking like a boss to do one better than the other by varying your build.
On May 17 2011 04:00 BouBou.865 wrote: Is Jarvan getting nerfed harder nexrt patch, or still totally worth picking up when you're strapped for cash?
uncertain. Xypherous made some post about how he thinks there are very large fundamental problems with the design of Jarman, Irelia and Nocturne and how he thinks none of them have counters and thus need attention on reworks, but that doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of changes in the near future (since they've been aware of the Irelia problem forever now and she doesn't seem to be seeing any nerfs).
On May 17 2011 04:00 BouBou.865 wrote: Is Jarvan getting nerfed harder nexrt patch, or still totally worth picking up when you're strapped for cash?
uncertain. Xypherous made some post about how he thinks there are very large fundamental problems with the design of Jarman, Irelia and Nocturne and how he thinks none of them have counters and thus need attention on reworks, but that doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of changes in the near future (since they've been aware of the Irelia problem forever now and she doesn't seem to be seeing any nerfs).
That sounds pretty vague. How are there large fundamental design problems with Jarman and Irelia but not with, say, Xin Zhao?
On May 17 2011 04:00 BouBou.865 wrote: Is Jarvan getting nerfed harder nexrt patch, or still totally worth picking up when you're strapped for cash?
uncertain. Xypherous made some post about how he thinks there are very large fundamental problems with the design of Jarman, Irelia and Nocturne and how he thinks none of them have counters and thus need attention on reworks, but that doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of changes in the near future (since they've been aware of the Irelia problem forever now and she doesn't seem to be seeing any nerfs).
That sounds pretty vague. How are there large fundamental design problems with Jarman and Irelia but not with, say, Xin Zhao?
That made me literally giggle. They suddenly somehow realized that putting like 40 special effects on one champion is bad design? What were they thinking when they released him? Slow, Armor reduction, shield, knockup, arena, 3 nukes, range, 56 goddamn armor and AS for free with near 100% uptime with CDR, tons other shit I cannot remember and it's only now they realize it is bad design?
Vayne only makes the suspicion grow - they release their champs being OP in mind for them to sell well. But they don't want to make it obvious so they are hesitant to nerf them, instead buffing/reworking stuff that they have promptly replaced. The thing is, you cannot rework every champion every two weeks.
On May 17 2011 04:00 BouBou.865 wrote: Is Jarvan getting nerfed harder nexrt patch, or still totally worth picking up when you're strapped for cash?
uncertain. Xypherous made some post about how he thinks there are very large fundamental problems with the design of Jarman, Irelia and Nocturne and how he thinks none of them have counters and thus need attention on reworks, but that doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of changes in the near future (since they've been aware of the Irelia problem forever now and she doesn't seem to be seeing any nerfs).
That sounds pretty vague. How are there large fundamental design problems with Jarman and Irelia but not with, say, Xin Zhao?
The problems with champs like Jarman, Renekton and Irelia is that they naturally do a lot of damage without needing a lot of itemisation. They also have good base stats, including the natural Mres/lvl. This then encourages them to buy tank items as they they benefit less than, say, Yi would from buying pure DPS. It is also easier to itemise defensively rather than offensively. That means that they are able to become rather tanky and still do a lot of damage relatively quickly and continue doing so. They of course still have the option to buy damage items if they want to as well.
Think of it like playing an assassin champ, except you're also hard to kill.
For example, Irelia only has AD scaling on her Q (straight 1:1) and R (+0.6). Her E and R scale with AP (which you won't really want to build). So when it comes to spending your gold in the most efficient manner, tanky items (Trinity then Randuin or something) make the most sense as it guarantees your get your burst off. Currently, she bursts almost as hard as (sometimes even harder than) some AP carries at 6 and has naturally higher armour and Mres which is just wrong. Her R also lets her heal up off creep waves a lot. She also deals Magic+Physical+True damage which makes it hard to itemise against compared to, say Xin Zhao.
Jarvan is similar, except he has even more innate armour and better AD ratios (1.1 on Q and 1.5 on R), several forms of CC, a shield, gives benefits to his team and reduces your armour.
This is also an issue with Alistar where the new AP cow can really gimp a squishy and still tank really hard thanks to his ult with no tank items, but I'm not aware of any nerfs atm.
Xypherous is also not on the Live Balance Team btw.
On May 17 2011 04:00 BouBou.865 wrote: Is Jarvan getting nerfed harder nexrt patch, or still totally worth picking up when you're strapped for cash?
uncertain. Xypherous made some post about how he thinks there are very large fundamental problems with the design of Jarman, Irelia and Nocturne and how he thinks none of them have counters and thus need attention on reworks, but that doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of changes in the near future (since they've been aware of the Irelia problem forever now and she doesn't seem to be seeing any nerfs).
That sounds pretty vague. How are there large fundamental design problems with Jarman and Irelia but not with, say, Xin Zhao?
The problems with champs like Jarman, Renekton and Irelia is that they naturally do a lot of damage without needing a lot of itemisation. They also have good base stats, including the natural Mres/lvl. (...)
This part actually applies to every tanky dps
The problem with these 3 champs mentioned is that they were given too much. Let's compare nocturne with yi - yi was designed to be squishy melee that deals huge amounts of damage and that's what his skills do (yeah, his W seems kinda off, but i guess it was at first supposed to be a skill that improves his laning, never thought about it though). Now Nocturne is a squishy melee that deals huge amounts of damage while having spellshield, hard cc and semi-global teleport. See the difference?
BluzMan already explained why Jarman has too much stuff in his kit, same thing with irelia - huge burst damage (q, e, r), huge sustained damage (w), "burst healing" with ulti, healing over time with W, cc (at least they made it partially huge-ass-percentage-and-longass slow instead of just stun). And of course thanks to her passive using CC on irelia in teamfight is just dumb. Her skills are good both for 1v1, 5v5, 1v2, ganking, being ganked, tanking, lifesteal-tanking and dishing out damage.
Too much stuff on one champion. "Old" champs had their limitations - the new ones don't if played properly (or at least they have way less limitations, of course nocturne is going to die fast if he's focused but he just has too many good sides for squishiness - which applies to many other champs as well - to matter. And he isn't even that squishy compared to true squishies)
Does anyone have links to vids of good Jarman players? I play him occasionally, but I don't get nearly as much mileage out of him as I feel that I should when I see all these comments.
On May 17 2011 07:34 MoonBear wrote: This is also an issue with Alistar where the new AP cow can really gimp a squishy and still tank really hard thanks to his ult with no tank items, but I'm not aware of any nerfs atm. .
On May 17 2011 07:34 MoonBear wrote: This is also an issue with Alistar where the new AP cow can really gimp a squishy and still tank really hard thanks to his ult with no tank items, but I'm not aware of any nerfs atm. .
please dont nerf my cow!
this is waay off topic, but vayne es new cow counter, true dmg goes right thru his ult
I kinda like to see a "true damage dealt" graph under details to compare the damage of "old" champs (corki/olaf/twitch) to "new" champs (irelia/vayne) over the course of a game.
I really don't know why I don't play Jarman all of the time in ranked. The guy can basically do everything well other than dish out AP damage. He tanks, he jungles, he assassinates, he CC's like a mofo -- he's a friggin swiss army knife unlike any other champ in the game. The really scary part is that he does it all well.
If by AP damage you mean magic damage - that would be his passive and I believe flag. I honestly can't think of a reason to pick, say, Mundo over Jarman on SR right now. TANK LIKE A TRUCK HIT LIKE A BOSS.
Now I understand why this thread is 11 pages after 2 months. Just played him for the 1st time today(hes free this week) totally destroy the other team with a normal build I got from the first page when the match was loading :D. I am thinking out pick him up after this week, seems very fun and the feeling you build a tank but still hit hard like and AD carry is pretty good :D.
On May 18 2011 13:39 Tooplark wrote: If by AP damage you mean magic damage - that would be his passive and I believe flag. I honestly can't think of a reason to pick, say, Mundo over Jarman on SR right now. TANK LIKE A TRUCK HIT LIKE A BOSS.
Looking at my last Jarvan game, I did 185,738 total damage, of which 149,184 was physical and 35,753 was magical. That's a lot more magic damage than I'd have expected. My items that game were ghostblade, mercs, randuins, FoN, warmogs, and atmas. Shouldn't be too surprising who carried whom to victory in that one....
Well high Elo players sometimes do really weird stuff. For example Elementz isn't using a-move (and just let amumu get safely thanks to that), wtf? I can't imagine someone in SC who isn't using a-move having rank better than D...
I honestly don't understand why they go nuts on HoGs =\. Philostone is admittedly imba though, I could see speccing harder defense and opening 2-3 Philostones being worthwhile since they're so retardedly efficient.
I like opening with 1 philostone (which I sell towards the end) and 1 HoG (which I usually build into randuins) before building into any other items. They give just enough extra laning sustainability to warrant slightly delaying my main items. Building more than that just seems like overkill, especially since you'll need to sell the extras to open up inventory space before long.
On May 19 2011 06:18 xDaunt wrote: I like opening with 1 philostone (which I sell towards the end) and 1 HoG (which I usually build into randuins) before building into any other items. They give just enough extra laning sustainability to warrant slightly delaying my main items. Building more than that just seems like overkill, especially since you'll need to sell the extras to open up inventory space before long.
Or you just build say a Phage instead of that HoG. Or build towards Warmogs if you're getting that. Unless Randuin's is one of your core items (I bet it's not), there is not much you're getting from rushing HoG. It takes quite a while until it can compete with other non-base items in efficiency.
I just played a game as Gragas 1v1.5 bot (Jarvan and semi-roam Soraka). He rushed Philo and I bossed him around with just giant belt and d-ring. Things sorta stabilized when he returned to lane after a failed gank with 4 hogs boots1 and philo, but I had warmogs and ionians and I could outfarm him cos he was bad.
On the mogs vs hogs debate: Both are investments in flat hp that leave you vulnerable for a while. HoGs are obviously weaker late game, since you're gonna sell them. Warmogs is a much bigger investment though. Hogs function as a temporary patch to your hp that eventually pay for themselves. Mogs is a more expensive and longer term investment. 3 hogs cost as much as mogs and give less hp than a mogs, as well as no hp regen. If you're gonna buy hogs you should probably stop at one.
Personally, I despise the gold5 trend on jarvan. At most i'd recommend one philo stone if you're laning, and that's max. Jarvan really doesn't need the mp5, and hp5 comes from mogs.
I think there's a decent line of thinking that says you should say fuck mana regen in your spec and run a double philo opening. philo is so OP that I'm gonna make a thread about how OP it is right now.
I don't even own Jarman, but he's free this week so I've been using your build opening cloth armor then boots then double philo. Then this game happened:
Okay, now I understand how OP jarman is. I'm usually bad with tanky dps characters because the expectation is that I can just run in and do whatever the fuck I want without dying. Usually that's not really how it works. But with Jarman it is. Seriously, I just played him for the first time (my build being w/e the fuck I could afford when I went b) and I had no idea what I was doing and I didn't go 0-10. OP OP OP OP OP OP
also this is my 250 post, do i become a marine now? edit: i did not become a marine, jarman let me down
brutalizer is too late to give you the surprise-buttsehks-100%-combo factor after warmog's usually. if you want to get it, you should do so before finishing warmog's IMO. I also advocate double philo since you can really chug through mana if you're spamming your shit and they're godly efficient. I also think there's no rush to finish ghostblade before atma's. Atma's is stupid efficient once you have a warmog's, so I typically just leave my brutalizer as a brutalizer until after FoN (since post Atma's I usually feel the need for more MRes), though it is of course situational.
On May 24 2011 00:19 Mogwai wrote: brutalizer is too late to give you the surprise-buttsehks-100%-combo factor after warmog's usually. if you want to get it, you should do so before finishing warmog's IMO. I also advocate double philo since you can really chug through mana if you're spamming your shit and they're godly efficient. I also think there's no rush to finish ghostblade before atma's. Atma's is stupid efficient once you have a warmog's, so I typically just leave my brutalizer as a brutalizer until after FoN (since post Atma's I usually feel the need for more MRes), though it is of course situational.
Whether jungling and getting a wriggles before warmogs or laning and getting a brutalizer before warmogs, I've never felt like I wasn't doing enough damage with just the wriggles/brutalizer before finishing my warmogs => atmas. Quite frankly, I generally do more damage over the course of a game with Jarvan than with Jax, which just doesn't seem right.
regrowth + 1 pot in lanes that are hard to harass double faerie charm + 3 pots in lanes that are easier to harass
double philostone -> boots (upgrade to Mercs when needed, but don't rush it, I usually wait until after Atma's without a specifc need for it) -> optional brutalizer (only if you think you can kill them with the extra damage) -> warmogs -> atma's -> FoN -> Triforce + Ghostblade (ghostblade first if you opened bruta, otherwise Triforce first with an option to go for Bloodthirster or IE over ghostblade if you can farm it up)
On May 24 2011 04:44 SHr3DD3r wrote: loco what will you take in 9 offence.... doubt that will be more useful as compared to 9 in utility. Esp on Jarvan.
Personally I prefer 0/21/9 (1 in Buff Duration) atm with dodge seals and ghost/exhaust, but w/e. I've also tried out 21/0/9, but I've come to the conclusion that you get more out of the Defensive Tree than the Offensive Tree.
On May 24 2011 04:47 Mogwai wrote: 3 crit, 1 AP, 4 AS, 1 ArPen.
Personally I prefer 0/21/9 (1 in Buff Duration) atm with dodge seals and ghost/exhaust, but w/e. I've also tried out 21/0/9, but I've come to the conclusion that you get more out of the Defensive Tree than the Offensive Tree.
Why do you consider 2 7 21 bad on jarman? I usually feel like utility is just too good on 80% of champs to not use it.
if u look at the stats brut gives and compare it to the stats that jarvan needs its pretty much a no brainer
for armor pen since most jarvans run both armor pen reds and quints and his Q gives flat armor pen its more efficient to get flat since his Q is % reduction not % penatration(diffrence?40% reduction and 60 flat pen on a 100 armor target = 100 armor penatration,40%pen and 60 flat = 72 armor penatration,basically % reduction applies before flat while % penetration doesnt)
u want cdr as jarvan since like many bruzers u have gud base damage with mediocre scaling,and more cdr means more Q to flag combo~
basically brut gives all the offensive stats that jarvan wants so its never "late" to get it,of course the item build isnt set in stone and u should feel free to skip it,get it early,buy ghostblade in one go
2.why get 1 philo instead of 2?
k so alittle girl talk inc "so there's this totally cute jeans at the gap that are like 50% off!,OH-MY-GOD *squel*,but like there white and like summer is over in like a few days,and white jeans in fall is so not totally fablous so ur only gonna get to wear it for like a couple of days and its gonna go in the closet and next spring Micheal Kors is gonna come out with a EVEN CUTER jean that u HAFTA buy so like ur not sure what to do k?,but like ur girlpal Caller told u something really smart which is sorta uncharecteristic of her since she's like a total bimbo,well not really even a bimbo cuz she's not that pretty but anyways she said "a jean ur only gonna wear once is probably the most expensive thing u can buy" and i like didn't really get what she meant but like THATS WHY U ONLY BUY 1 PHILO
seriously though even though philo is insanely cost efficient there's no need to buy more than 1 if u only need 1 to stay in lane etc,delaying warmogs is bad!
3.why triforce is bad
it's not cost efficient compared to ghostblade,thats it~
On May 24 2011 04:47 Mogwai wrote: 3 crit, 1 AP, 4 AS, 1 ArPen.
Personally I prefer 0/21/9 (1 in Buff Duration) atm with dodge seals and ghost/exhaust, but w/e. I've also tried out 21/0/9, but I've come to the conclusion that you get more out of the Defensive Tree than the Offensive Tree.
Why do you consider 2 7 21 bad on jarman? I usually feel like utility is just too good on 80% of champs to not use it.
I just don't think you can play the same sort of lane dominance game with 21 utility that you can play with 21 defense.
On May 24 2011 15:23 locodoco wrote: 1.brut after warmogs
if u look at the stats brut gives and compare it to the stats that jarvan needs its pretty much a no brainer
for armor pen since most jarvans run both armor pen reds and quints and his Q gives flat armor pen its more efficient to get flat since his Q is % reduction not % penatration(diffrence?40% reduction and 60 flat pen on a 100 armor target = 100 armor penatration,40%pen and 60 flat = 72 armor penatration,basically % reduction applies before flat while % penetration doesnt)
u want cdr as jarvan since like many bruzers u have gud base damage with mediocre scaling,and more cdr means more Q to flag combo~
basically brut gives all the offensive stats that jarvan wants so its never "late" to get it,of course the item build isnt set in stone and u should feel free to skip it,get it early,buy ghostblade in one go
2.why get 1 philo instead of 2?
k so alittle girl talk inc "so there's this totally cute jeans at the gap that are like 50% off!,OH-MY-GOD *squel*,but like there white and like summer is over in like a few days,and white jeans in fall is so not totally fablous so ur only gonna get to wear it for like a couple of days and its gonna go in the closet and next spring Micheal Kors is gonna come out with a EVEN CUTER jean that u HAFTA buy so like ur not sure what to do k?,but like ur girlpal Caller told u something really smart which is sorta uncharecteristic of her since she's like a total bimbo,well not really even a bimbo cuz she's not that pretty but anyways she said "a jean ur only gonna wear once is probably the most expensive thing u can buy" and i like didn't really get what she meant but like THATS WHY U ONLY BUY 1 PHILO
seriously though even though philo is insanely cost efficient there's no need to buy more than 1 if u only need 1 to stay in lane etc,delaying warmogs is bad!
3.why triforce is bad
it's not cost efficient compared to ghostblade,thats it~
1. Flat pen is more effective the lower your opponent's armor is. It can be "late" to miss the point when it is most effective.
Sidenote: can you cut the crap with talking about game mechanics like you know something I don't? I know all the reasons brutalizer is good on him, I know why flat pen has positive synergy with Jarman and % pen has negative synergy with Jarman. I've been building brutalizer on Jarman since before you even knew he was worth playing.
2. You're just so adorable, everyone must fucking love you.
I buy 2 because the extra sustainability allows me to be more aggressive in lane by constantly spamming my nukes at people and I'm typically looking to spend bare minimum 8K gold before looking to sell philos which mean they have plenty of time to pay for themselves. This also means that when surprise teamfights show up, I'm never out of mana considering that I don't spec jack-shit in the way of other mana/mana regen and Jarman can chug through mana like a boss when he wants to. I've played this character so fucking much, I've been through no-warmog's phases, cloth -> boots -> straight warmog's phases, 1 philo stone -> boots -> warmog's phases, 2 philo stone -> boots -> brutalizer -> warmog's phases, and pretty much everything in between. Here's the thing, delaying your warmog's isn't the end of the world because the fact of the matter is that in a typical game 75+% of your warmog's charging is going to come from kills/assists in teamfights and not from sitting there farming 100 more CS in lane. Even in a passive game, you can pretty easily hit double philo @ 8:00 and warmogs before 20:00. Builds should be malleable and change from game to game and if you don't need to use your skills that much, go right ahead and build only one, I'm just saying that my typical build consists of double Philostone.
3. The only "wasted" stat on Triforce is the AP. Literally every other stat on it is very very good on Jarman. He has relatively low CDs to proc sheen, he likes movespeed and slow procs, he needs mana when he starts selling off his philosopher's stones, HP is always good, AS, AD, Crit, all always good. Does it do less sustained DPS when Ghostblade has it's active up? Yes. Does it perform significantly better all the rest of the time? Yes. There are pros and cons to both items, but the simple fact of the matter is that if I skipped over Brutalizer and went straight Warmog's -> Atma's -> FoN and can afford Triforce, I'm going to get triforce over ghostblade every time.
Loco, I don't wanna dislike you bro, but don't be a condescending asshole about a character that you've probably played in 5 games to someone who's play several hundred at roughly the same level of play. People don't ban Jarman when they see you on the other team, they do with me. Whether or not you're willing to accept it, I know a fuckton about this character and I would really appreciate it if you'd just give me a little respect. I'm willing to take your word on shit about ranged carries, the least you can do is the same for me when it comes to Jarman.
On May 25 2011 00:24 Senx wrote: Uhm.. you write in your original guide that you get mana regen yellows, is that really worth it over flat armor when you open 2 philos?
nope, just haven't updated the first post in awhile. Guess I should do so.
Also I just gotta comment on ultin in team fights, holy shit this feel so akward.
Standard situations for me:
* I ult a carry and block out my teammate from helping to kill it * I ult a xin/ww, i trap my teammate to his death * I ult in the jungle, i block my entire team out of the fight like a massive anivia wall.
I guess i'm just awful, but I often find his ult to do more dmg than good in team fights.
Like as soon as I use it in a teamfight i'm like "ehh that didnt really help, i'll toogle it off so my olaf can reach this ashe".
It it just me? lol
Maybe using it more as a nuke rather than an actual CC spell is the better and safer application, for team fights atleast.
On May 25 2011 00:36 Senx wrote: Also I just gotta comment on ultin in team fights, holy shit this feel so akward.
Standard situations for me:
* I ult a carry and block out my teammate from helping to kill it * I ult a xin/ww, i trap my teammate to his death * I ult in the jungle, i block my entire team out of the fight like a massive anivia wall.
I guess i'm just awful, but I often find his ult to do more dmg than good in team fights.
Like as soon as I use it in a teamfight i'm like "ehh that didnt really help, i'll toogle it off so my olaf can reach this ashe".
It it just me? lol
Maybe using it more as a nuke rather than an actual CC spell is the better and safer application, for team fights atleast.
Your ranged DPS stay back. Your brawlers get in. Ulti so that your brawlers can hit everything important. This means, don't ulti the tank + the melee DPS if your brawler would also get caught, ulti their carry or squishy AP if you have your teammate there or can burst them yourself, if you won't have any teammate in your ulti you should ulti a tanky dps or a tank or an anticarry in with you(Or their squishy if you have enough ranged support but don't block an Olaf out for instance when you do this)
Using the ult well is difficult and the right way to use it is extremely situational. You're gonna fuck up a lot but eventually you'll figure out when it's a good idea and when it's a retarded item.
On May 24 2011 04:47 Mogwai wrote: 3 crit, 1 AP, 4 AS, 1 ArPen.
Personally I prefer 0/21/9 (1 in Buff Duration) atm with dodge seals and ghost/exhaust, but w/e. I've also tried out 21/0/9, but I've come to the conclusion that you get more out of the Defensive Tree than the Offensive Tree.
Why do you consider 2 7 21 bad on jarman? I usually feel like utility is just too good on 80% of champs to not use it.
I just don't think you can play the same sort of lane dominance game with 21 utility that you can play with 21 defense.
On May 24 2011 15:23 locodoco wrote: 1.brut after warmogs
if u look at the stats brut gives and compare it to the stats that jarvan needs its pretty much a no brainer
for armor pen since most jarvans run both armor pen reds and quints and his Q gives flat armor pen its more efficient to get flat since his Q is % reduction not % penatration(diffrence?40% reduction and 60 flat pen on a 100 armor target = 100 armor penatration,40%pen and 60 flat = 72 armor penatration,basically % reduction applies before flat while % penetration doesnt)
u want cdr as jarvan since like many bruzers u have gud base damage with mediocre scaling,and more cdr means more Q to flag combo~
basically brut gives all the offensive stats that jarvan wants so its never "late" to get it,of course the item build isnt set in stone and u should feel free to skip it,get it early,buy ghostblade in one go
2.why get 1 philo instead of 2?
k so alittle girl talk inc "so there's this totally cute jeans at the gap that are like 50% off!,OH-MY-GOD *squel*,but like there white and like summer is over in like a few days,and white jeans in fall is so not totally fablous so ur only gonna get to wear it for like a couple of days and its gonna go in the closet and next spring Micheal Kors is gonna come out with a EVEN CUTER jean that u HAFTA buy so like ur not sure what to do k?,but like ur girlpal Caller told u something really smart which is sorta uncharecteristic of her since she's like a total bimbo,well not really even a bimbo cuz she's not that pretty but anyways she said "a jean ur only gonna wear once is probably the most expensive thing u can buy" and i like didn't really get what she meant but like THATS WHY U ONLY BUY 1 PHILO
seriously though even though philo is insanely cost efficient there's no need to buy more than 1 if u only need 1 to stay in lane etc,delaying warmogs is bad!
3.why triforce is bad
it's not cost efficient compared to ghostblade,thats it~
1. Flat pen is more effective the lower your opponent's armor is. It can be "late" to miss the point when it is most effective.
Sidenote: can you cut the crap with talking about game mechanics like you know something I don't? I know all the reasons brutalizer is good on him, I know why flat pen has positive synergy with Jarman and % pen has negative synergy with Jarman. I've been building brutalizer on Jarman since before you even knew he was worth playing.
2. You're just so adorable, everyone must fucking love you.
I buy 2 because the extra sustainability allows me to be more aggressive in lane by constantly spamming my nukes at people and I'm typically looking to spend bare minimum 8K gold before looking to sell philos which mean they have plenty of time to pay for themselves. This also means that when surprise teamfights show up, I'm never out of mana considering that I don't spec jack-shit in the way of other mana/mana regen and Jarman can chug through mana like a boss when he wants to. I've played this character so fucking much, I've been through no-warmog's phases, cloth -> boots -> straight warmog's phases, 1 philo stone -> boots -> warmog's phases, 2 philo stone -> boots -> brutalizer -> warmog's phases, and pretty much everything in between. Here's the thing, delaying your warmog's isn't the end of the world because the fact of the matter is that in a typical game 75+% of your warmog's charging is going to come from kills/assists in teamfights and not from sitting there farming 100 more CS in lane. Even in a passive game, you can pretty easily hit double philo @ 8:00 and warmogs before 20:00. Builds should be malleable and change from game to game and if you don't need to use your skills that much, go right ahead and build only one, I'm just saying that my typical build consists of double Philostone.
3. The only "wasted" stat on Triforce is the AP. Literally every other stat on it is very very good on Jarman. He has relatively low CDs to proc sheen, he likes movespeed and slow procs, he needs mana when he starts selling off his philosopher's stones, HP is always good, AS, AD, Crit, all always good. Does it do less sustained DPS when Ghostblade has it's active up? Yes. Does it perform significantly better all the rest of the time? Yes. There are pros and cons to both items, but the simple fact of the matter is that if I skipped over Brutalizer and went straight Warmog's -> Atma's -> FoN and can afford Triforce, I'm going to get triforce over ghostblade every time.
Loco, I don't wanna dislike you bro, but don't be a condescending asshole about a character that you've probably played in 5 games to someone who's play several hundred at roughly the same level of play. People don't ban Jarman when they see you on the other team, they do with me. Whether or not you're willing to accept it, I know a fuckton about this character and I would really appreciate it if you'd just give me a little respect. I'm willing to take your word on shit about ranged carries, the least you can do is the same for me when it comes to Jarman.
zzz im not even trying to be an asshole ur just being overly defensive,how am i not giving u respect?by stating a build that's diffrent than urs?i don't ask for any1 to take my word on stuff about ranged carrys or anything,i almost always say something like "builds are guidelines" this is whats "most cost effective but feel free to try other shit"
anyways 1.its never late to get brut,since as u stated flatpen is most effective on lower armored targets,but even later in the game when squishes start getting 80~100 armor no other item is gonna give more damage per gold than brutalizer->ghostblade
2.i hate getting double philo's on jarvan,i always try to cut regen out of any champs i play,be it philos,util masterys,runes w/e.if u accurately guess the champ ur going against in lane and u can pick whether to take armor yellows or mr blues,u can use the other one for regen and be fine in lane.philos are cost efficient no doubt but there's no reason to buy more than u need just cuz their cost efficient
another example of regen talk long before season 1,nyx used to get fucking clarity+chalice on janna.his explanation for it was that if he got both he could spam all his spells all day long and be pro.i told him it was a fucking waste of summoners and gold and that he should switch to 2~3 dorans with mana regen yellows instead,he didnt change his mind till he saw zirun play janna with the exact setup i mentioned.zirun played janna very very very streamlined,he only ever used spells when he needed to. another big no regen ever player is mr.aggressive feedstyle himself reginald by some fucking miracle reginald plays ezreal and ashe(champs that most people would argue to get double sets of regen on,before the mana regen innate buff patch) w/o any mana regen runes. he does 2/7/21 and gets attackspeed blues and yellows for both.he doesn't even run mana regen on corki. before joining solo mid or playing with him in general, i always thought he was an idiot for having that setup and that he was in the wrong. but after joining solo mid and practicing solo laneing with reginald,he changed my mind. if u play aggressive at the right moments in lane and only use mana than and use that advantage u have to just farm,no mana regen was actually just enuff. i myself still run mana regen on most ranged carrys since im not as aggressive nor decisive as regi in lane,but i still think double philo on jarvan is overkill when u can do single philo + manaregen runes
3.none of the stats on triforce is "bad" on jarvan,but triforce it self is a very very very iffy item. the stats it gives for the gold it costs makes it inefficient. ill write more later
obviously #1 way to play jarman, trap people in ur r and right click and they all die i'm negative because my shit team wouldn't let me farm enough to get my 5 tiamats so i wasn't as useful
On May 24 2011 04:47 Mogwai wrote: 3 crit, 1 AP, 4 AS, 1 ArPen.
Personally I prefer 0/21/9 (1 in Buff Duration) atm with dodge seals and ghost/exhaust, but w/e. I've also tried out 21/0/9, but I've come to the conclusion that you get more out of the Defensive Tree than the Offensive Tree.
Why do you consider 2 7 21 bad on jarman? I usually feel like utility is just too good on 80% of champs to not use it.
I just don't think you can play the same sort of lane dominance game with 21 utility that you can play with 21 defense.
On May 24 2011 15:23 locodoco wrote: 1.brut after warmogs
if u look at the stats brut gives and compare it to the stats that jarvan needs its pretty much a no brainer
for armor pen since most jarvans run both armor pen reds and quints and his Q gives flat armor pen its more efficient to get flat since his Q is % reduction not % penatration(diffrence?40% reduction and 60 flat pen on a 100 armor target = 100 armor penatration,40%pen and 60 flat = 72 armor penatration,basically % reduction applies before flat while % penetration doesnt)
u want cdr as jarvan since like many bruzers u have gud base damage with mediocre scaling,and more cdr means more Q to flag combo~
basically brut gives all the offensive stats that jarvan wants so its never "late" to get it,of course the item build isnt set in stone and u should feel free to skip it,get it early,buy ghostblade in one go
2.why get 1 philo instead of 2?
k so alittle girl talk inc "so there's this totally cute jeans at the gap that are like 50% off!,OH-MY-GOD *squel*,but like there white and like summer is over in like a few days,and white jeans in fall is so not totally fablous so ur only gonna get to wear it for like a couple of days and its gonna go in the closet and next spring Micheal Kors is gonna come out with a EVEN CUTER jean that u HAFTA buy so like ur not sure what to do k?,but like ur girlpal Caller told u something really smart which is sorta uncharecteristic of her since she's like a total bimbo,well not really even a bimbo cuz she's not that pretty but anyways she said "a jean ur only gonna wear once is probably the most expensive thing u can buy" and i like didn't really get what she meant but like THATS WHY U ONLY BUY 1 PHILO
seriously though even though philo is insanely cost efficient there's no need to buy more than 1 if u only need 1 to stay in lane etc,delaying warmogs is bad!
3.why triforce is bad
it's not cost efficient compared to ghostblade,thats it~
1. Flat pen is more effective the lower your opponent's armor is. It can be "late" to miss the point when it is most effective.
Sidenote: can you cut the crap with talking about game mechanics like you know something I don't? I know all the reasons brutalizer is good on him, I know why flat pen has positive synergy with Jarman and % pen has negative synergy with Jarman. I've been building brutalizer on Jarman since before you even knew he was worth playing.
2. You're just so adorable, everyone must fucking love you.
I buy 2 because the extra sustainability allows me to be more aggressive in lane by constantly spamming my nukes at people and I'm typically looking to spend bare minimum 8K gold before looking to sell philos which mean they have plenty of time to pay for themselves. This also means that when surprise teamfights show up, I'm never out of mana considering that I don't spec jack-shit in the way of other mana/mana regen and Jarman can chug through mana like a boss when he wants to. I've played this character so fucking much, I've been through no-warmog's phases, cloth -> boots -> straight warmog's phases, 1 philo stone -> boots -> warmog's phases, 2 philo stone -> boots -> brutalizer -> warmog's phases, and pretty much everything in between. Here's the thing, delaying your warmog's isn't the end of the world because the fact of the matter is that in a typical game 75+% of your warmog's charging is going to come from kills/assists in teamfights and not from sitting there farming 100 more CS in lane. Even in a passive game, you can pretty easily hit double philo @ 8:00 and warmogs before 20:00. Builds should be malleable and change from game to game and if you don't need to use your skills that much, go right ahead and build only one, I'm just saying that my typical build consists of double Philostone.
3. The only "wasted" stat on Triforce is the AP. Literally every other stat on it is very very good on Jarman. He has relatively low CDs to proc sheen, he likes movespeed and slow procs, he needs mana when he starts selling off his philosopher's stones, HP is always good, AS, AD, Crit, all always good. Does it do less sustained DPS when Ghostblade has it's active up? Yes. Does it perform significantly better all the rest of the time? Yes. There are pros and cons to both items, but the simple fact of the matter is that if I skipped over Brutalizer and went straight Warmog's -> Atma's -> FoN and can afford Triforce, I'm going to get triforce over ghostblade every time.
Loco, I don't wanna dislike you bro, but don't be a condescending asshole about a character that you've probably played in 5 games to someone who's play several hundred at roughly the same level of play. People don't ban Jarman when they see you on the other team, they do with me. Whether or not you're willing to accept it, I know a fuckton about this character and I would really appreciate it if you'd just give me a little respect. I'm willing to take your word on shit about ranged carries, the least you can do is the same for me when it comes to Jarman.
zzz im not even trying to be an asshole ur just being overly defensive,how am i not giving u respect?by stating a build that's diffrent than urs?i don't ask for any1 to take my word on stuff about ranged carrys or anything,i almost always say something like "builds are guidelines" this is whats "most cost effective but feel free to try other shit"
anyways 1.its never late to get brut,since as u stated flatpen is most effective on lower armored targets,but even later in the game when squishes start getting 80~100 armor no other item is gonna give more damage per gold than brutalizer->ghostblade
2.i hate getting double philo's on jarvan,i always try to cut regen out of any champs i play,be it philos,util masterys,runes w/e.if u accurately guess the champ ur going against in lane and u can pick whether to take armor yellows or mr blues,u can use the other one for regen and be fine in lane.philos are cost efficient no doubt but there's no reason to buy more than u need just cuz their cost efficient
another example of regen talk long before season 1,nyx used to get fucking clarity+chalice on janna.his explanation for it was that if he got both he could spam all his spells all day long and be pro.i told him it was a fucking waste of summoners and gold and that he should switch to 2~3 dorans with mana regen yellows instead,he didnt change his mind till he saw zirun play janna with the exact setup i mentioned.zirun played janna very very very streamlined,he only ever used spells when he needed to. another big no regen ever player is mr.aggressive feedstyle himself reginald by some fucking miracle reginald plays ezreal and ashe(champs that most people would argue to get double sets of regen on,before the mana regen innate buff patch) w/o any mana regen runes. he does 2/7/21 and gets attackspeed blues and yellows for both.he doesn't even run mana regen on corki. before joining solo mid or playing with him in general, i always thought he was an idiot for having that setup and that he was in the wrong. but after joining solo mid and practicing solo laneing with reginald,he changed my mind. if u play aggressive at the right moments in lane and only use mana than and use that advantage u have to just farm,no mana regen was actually just enuff. i myself still run mana regen on most ranged carrys since im not as aggressive nor decisive as regi in lane,but i still think double philo on jarvan is overkill when u can do single philo + manaregen runes
3.none of the stats on triforce is "bad" on jarvan,but triforce it self is a very very very iffy item. the stats it gives for the gold it costs makes it inefficient. ill write more later
"a jean ur only going to wear once is probably the most expensive thing you can buy"
if going into a little "girl talk" about jeans as an analogy for philostones on Jarman isn't trying to be a condescending asshole, I don't know what is.
On May 25 2011 10:06 Mogwai wrote: if going into a little "girl talk" about jeans as an analogy for philostones on Jarman isn't trying to be a condescending asshole, I don't know what is.
since locodoco moved to korea he only speaks in analogies, at least thats what it seems like from watching him talk on his stream
mogwai's nerd ego all bruised, seems to happen a lot
3.none of the stats on triforce is "bad" on jarvan,but triforce it self is a very very very iffy item. the stats it gives for the gold it costs makes it inefficient.
the raw stats are worth 264 gold above cost
+ phantom dancer's worth of movespeed + super phage + super sheen
Poppy is a stupid hero. I hate initiating with Jarman only to have to 1v4 while the rest of my team inexplicably is chasing around a poppy who's ult is on our support.
Triforce has to be the most cost efficient item in the game, at least for a >3k gold item. Even if you don't use the mana OR the AP it's still retardedly good.
On May 25 2011 23:10 Mogwai wrote: Poppy is a stupid hero. I hate initiating with Jarman only to have to 1v4 while the rest of my team inexplicably is chasing around a poppy who's ult is on our support.
Fool, you should have trapped her with your ultimate.
On May 24 2011 04:47 Mogwai wrote: 3 crit, 1 AP, 4 AS, 1 ArPen.
Personally I prefer 0/21/9 (1 in Buff Duration) atm with dodge seals and ghost/exhaust, but w/e. I've also tried out 21/0/9, but I've come to the conclusion that you get more out of the Defensive Tree than the Offensive Tree.
Why do you consider 2 7 21 bad on jarman? I usually feel like utility is just too good on 80% of champs to not use it.
I just don't think you can play the same sort of lane dominance game with 21 utility that you can play with 21 defense.
On May 24 2011 15:23 locodoco wrote: 1.brut after warmogs
if u look at the stats brut gives and compare it to the stats that jarvan needs its pretty much a no brainer
for armor pen since most jarvans run both armor pen reds and quints and his Q gives flat armor pen its more efficient to get flat since his Q is % reduction not % penatration(diffrence?40% reduction and 60 flat pen on a 100 armor target = 100 armor penatration,40%pen and 60 flat = 72 armor penatration,basically % reduction applies before flat while % penetration doesnt)
u want cdr as jarvan since like many bruzers u have gud base damage with mediocre scaling,and more cdr means more Q to flag combo~
basically brut gives all the offensive stats that jarvan wants so its never "late" to get it,of course the item build isnt set in stone and u should feel free to skip it,get it early,buy ghostblade in one go
2.why get 1 philo instead of 2?
k so alittle girl talk inc "so there's this totally cute jeans at the gap that are like 50% off!,OH-MY-GOD *squel*,but like there white and like summer is over in like a few days,and white jeans in fall is so not totally fablous so ur only gonna get to wear it for like a couple of days and its gonna go in the closet and next spring Micheal Kors is gonna come out with a EVEN CUTER jean that u HAFTA buy so like ur not sure what to do k?,but like ur girlpal Caller told u something really smart which is sorta uncharecteristic of her since she's like a total bimbo,well not really even a bimbo cuz she's not that pretty but anyways she said "a jean ur only gonna wear once is probably the most expensive thing u can buy" and i like didn't really get what she meant but like THATS WHY U ONLY BUY 1 PHILO
seriously though even though philo is insanely cost efficient there's no need to buy more than 1 if u only need 1 to stay in lane etc,delaying warmogs is bad!
3.why triforce is bad
it's not cost efficient compared to ghostblade,thats it~
1. Flat pen is more effective the lower your opponent's armor is. It can be "late" to miss the point when it is most effective.
Sidenote: can you cut the crap with talking about game mechanics like you know something I don't? I know all the reasons brutalizer is good on him, I know why flat pen has positive synergy with Jarman and % pen has negative synergy with Jarman. I've been building brutalizer on Jarman since before you even knew he was worth playing.
2. You're just so adorable, everyone must fucking love you.
I buy 2 because the extra sustainability allows me to be more aggressive in lane by constantly spamming my nukes at people and I'm typically looking to spend bare minimum 8K gold before looking to sell philos which mean they have plenty of time to pay for themselves. This also means that when surprise teamfights show up, I'm never out of mana considering that I don't spec jack-shit in the way of other mana/mana regen and Jarman can chug through mana like a boss when he wants to. I've played this character so fucking much, I've been through no-warmog's phases, cloth -> boots -> straight warmog's phases, 1 philo stone -> boots -> warmog's phases, 2 philo stone -> boots -> brutalizer -> warmog's phases, and pretty much everything in between. Here's the thing, delaying your warmog's isn't the end of the world because the fact of the matter is that in a typical game 75+% of your warmog's charging is going to come from kills/assists in teamfights and not from sitting there farming 100 more CS in lane. Even in a passive game, you can pretty easily hit double philo @ 8:00 and warmogs before 20:00. Builds should be malleable and change from game to game and if you don't need to use your skills that much, go right ahead and build only one, I'm just saying that my typical build consists of double Philostone.
3. The only "wasted" stat on Triforce is the AP. Literally every other stat on it is very very good on Jarman. He has relatively low CDs to proc sheen, he likes movespeed and slow procs, he needs mana when he starts selling off his philosopher's stones, HP is always good, AS, AD, Crit, all always good. Does it do less sustained DPS when Ghostblade has it's active up? Yes. Does it perform significantly better all the rest of the time? Yes. There are pros and cons to both items, but the simple fact of the matter is that if I skipped over Brutalizer and went straight Warmog's -> Atma's -> FoN and can afford Triforce, I'm going to get triforce over ghostblade every time.
Loco, I don't wanna dislike you bro, but don't be a condescending asshole about a character that you've probably played in 5 games to someone who's play several hundred at roughly the same level of play. People don't ban Jarman when they see you on the other team, they do with me. Whether or not you're willing to accept it, I know a fuckton about this character and I would really appreciate it if you'd just give me a little respect. I'm willing to take your word on shit about ranged carries, the least you can do is the same for me when it comes to Jarman.
zzz im not even trying to be an asshole ur just being overly defensive,how am i not giving u respect?by stating a build that's diffrent than urs?i don't ask for any1 to take my word on stuff about ranged carrys or anything,i almost always say something like "builds are guidelines" this is whats "most cost effective but feel free to try other shit"
anyways 1.its never late to get brut,since as u stated flatpen is most effective on lower armored targets,but even later in the game when squishes start getting 80~100 armor no other item is gonna give more damage per gold than brutalizer->ghostblade
2.i hate getting double philo's on jarvan,i always try to cut regen out of any champs i play,be it philos,util masterys,runes w/e.if u accurately guess the champ ur going against in lane and u can pick whether to take armor yellows or mr blues,u can use the other one for regen and be fine in lane.philos are cost efficient no doubt but there's no reason to buy more than u need just cuz their cost efficient
another example of regen talk long before season 1,nyx used to get fucking clarity+chalice on janna.his explanation for it was that if he got both he could spam all his spells all day long and be pro.i told him it was a fucking waste of summoners and gold and that he should switch to 2~3 dorans with mana regen yellows instead,he didnt change his mind till he saw zirun play janna with the exact setup i mentioned.zirun played janna very very very streamlined,he only ever used spells when he needed to. another big no regen ever player is mr.aggressive feedstyle himself reginald by some fucking miracle reginald plays ezreal and ashe(champs that most people would argue to get double sets of regen on,before the mana regen innate buff patch) w/o any mana regen runes. he does 2/7/21 and gets attackspeed blues and yellows for both.he doesn't even run mana regen on corki. before joining solo mid or playing with him in general, i always thought he was an idiot for having that setup and that he was in the wrong. but after joining solo mid and practicing solo laneing with reginald,he changed my mind. if u play aggressive at the right moments in lane and only use mana than and use that advantage u have to just farm,no mana regen was actually just enuff. i myself still run mana regen on most ranged carrys since im not as aggressive nor decisive as regi in lane,but i still think double philo on jarvan is overkill when u can do single philo + manaregen runes
3.none of the stats on triforce is "bad" on jarvan,but triforce it self is a very very very iffy item. the stats it gives for the gold it costs makes it inefficient. ill write more later
I'm sorry bro's but since I'm a fanboy of you both I have to shit into your discussion about the regen part.
If my following assumption is correct you both have the same manaregen:
Locodoco uses Mp5 in EITHER yellow or blue slot depending on his lane whenever possible. That's why he's fine with one philo for mana.
Mogwai uses flat armor and scaling mres, so he needs the manaregen from 2 philos for the same amount of spellspam loco can do with one.
So my duo que partner is learning to play that gargoyal dude, Galileo. After a few games of playing support guys with him in lane I decided to try out Jarman. Once we both his six, he flashes out of the bush and ultimate taunts their TF and Ashe allowing my to demacia the four of us into the arena for a double kill. We did this 4 times through out the game, but lost the game when Shaco left and we were unable to control the map. The ulti can be combo'd with other partners abilities to make for some nifty ganks.
On June 02 2011 06:21 broz0rs wrote: Loved the FFIV references. Greatest turn-based console RPG of all time imo.
I think that's probably just the nostalgia talking (especially since it was semi-real time), but that's OK because I'm hugely nostalgic towards the game too. Need a Dragoon skin for Jarman or Pantheon ASAP IMOIMOIMO.
I just jungled Jarvan and failed. Well not fail really because how can you fail but it wasn't that fast I think I was chaining E and Q and shit wrong so sad so bad
I finally got a solo lane with Jarman, ended up something like 6/0/8. Double philo is so much sustainability that you can just bully your lane opponent around and then you get warmogs and do stupid damage while being super tanky and then you jump on top of their whole team and kill 3 then get out and I dunno what else followed cause they surrendered then.
The +1 second cd increase nerf really hurt him though. Have to wait 1 more second to kill stuff.
On June 03 2011 07:21 unichan wrote: I just jungled Jarvan and failed. Well not fail really because how can you fail but it wasn't that fast I think I was chaining E and Q and shit wrong so sad so bad
i might be wrong, but it doesnt seem like jarvan can do blue->wolves->wraiths->red without getting ridicously low anymore due to the cooldown increases on q.
instead ive just been going blue->wolves->wraiths->gols and then pill back, get boots and then red. it's a lot slower but it grants you a longer red buff and plenty of hp to gank after red.
On June 03 2011 07:21 unichan wrote: I just jungled Jarvan and failed. Well not fail really because how can you fail but it wasn't that fast I think I was chaining E and Q and shit wrong so sad so bad
i might be wrong, but it doesnt seem like jarvan can do blue->wolves->wraiths->red without getting ridicously low anymore due to the cooldown increases on q.
instead ive just been going blue->wolves->wraiths->gols and then pill back, get boots and then red. it's a lot slower but it grants you a longer red buff and plenty of hp to gank after red.
Thats why you max E first for the attack speed and armor bonus ^^
On June 03 2011 07:21 unichan wrote: I just jungled Jarvan and failed. Well not fail really because how can you fail but it wasn't that fast I think I was chaining E and Q and shit wrong so sad so bad
i might be wrong, but it doesnt seem like jarvan can do blue->wolves->wraiths->red without getting ridicously low anymore due to the cooldown increases on q.
instead ive just been going blue->wolves->wraiths->gols and then pill back, get boots and then red. it's a lot slower but it grants you a longer red buff and plenty of hp to gank after red.
I run my jungle Jarvan at 21-0-9 with ARpen red/quint, armor yellow, and mres/lvl blue (EQQWQR). If I get a leash at blue, I can do blue => wolves => wraiths => red => sg => blue pill fairly easily, though I tend to be a little low on health after red. I'd suggest speccing 1-18-11 with jungle jarvan if you're afraid of jungle invasions to stay a little beefier.
the EU jungle jarmans were opening regrowth and running 0/21/9 with ArPen Reds and Armor everywhere else for anyone who's curious what they were doing. They did a lot of early ganking with less concern for doing full clears on their first run.
On June 22 2011 06:29 Mogwai wrote: the EU jungle jarmans were opening regrowth and running 0/21/9 with ArPen Reds and Armor everywhere else for anyone who's curious what they were doing. They did a lot of early ganking with less concern for doing full clears on their first run.
...and they stacked HoGs like their life depended on it. I found interesting that junglers through the whole DH ended at around 100-120ish CS total. Someone (iirc it was saint) stated that that's why Trundle/Olaf weren't even considered cause they'd need way more farm to do well.
Also, those ganks all over the place.. some of those Jarmans made nunu look like a drunk sailor waiting for breakfest.
well, right. Junglers were much less about clear times and more about providing roam presence with the double AP setups and with double AP + single AD, it was generally not left to them to farm open lanes + they had to pretty much 100% tank out since there was little to no tankiness in lanes.
I did a One Philo one HoG build last night as Jarvan and it worked fine. However, I was a solo top and not a jungle. I really do not see the problem with gold per 5 on Jarvan because he will still get two before he builds actual items. It is only slightly less farm for one of the better solo lanes in the game.
The problem I've always had with excessive gold/10 on jarman is that he farms up items just fine without it and you end up wasting time and item slots on HoGs when you should have a warmog's building up stacks ASAP. 2 is a good number of gold/10s in lane (double philo > philo + HoG right now IMO, but that ofc changes in this patch). I dunno, after this patch I'm probably going to just run single philo -> brutalizer -> warmog's in lane. Jungle, I think I'll be running triple gold/10 and try to play more gank centric with philo -> HoG -> Avarice and then grab stuff like Sunfire/Banshee's before I look to finish up Ghostblade/Omen. We'll see, gotta go back to the drawing board a bit after this patch.
im gonna mess with builds for a while,but i wanna do a super offensive builds focused on armor pen and high armor/mr and cdr and i also wanna try triple gold/5(philo,hog,avarice) i dont think mog + atmas isnt that good on jarvan
On June 22 2011 23:27 locodoco wrote: im gonna mess with builds for a while,but i wanna do a super offensive builds focused on armor pen and high armor/mr and cdr and i also wanna try triple gold/5(philo,hog,avarice) i dont think mog + atmas isnt that good on jarvan
"don't think mog + atmas isn't that good"? Double negative = you like Atmog's in English, but I realize English isn't your first language so I'm just wondering if you're trying to say you like or dislike atmog's on him.
personally, I still like Atmog's a lot on him, but I have been considering going back to my older sunfire/banshee's based builds and have been testing them on my smurf. I dunno, there's just something really nice about when you hit your Atma's + Negatron after Warmog's and you just feel untouchable. But it obviously takes a long time to kick in fully and probably is less impactful in the earlier teamfights when you're sitting on something like Warmog's + boots 1 instead of Sunfire + Merc Treads. I think in general that it's easier to drag solo queue games out since opponents are worse at grouping and forcing fights at relevant objectives, and thus building for the late game with an Atmog's centric build typically outperforms builds based around other tanking items in that scenario. But watching dreamhack has forced me to consider whether that's a worthwhile strategy in more organized play or whether you're better off going for higher impact single items rather than a synergistic set of 7-8K gold worth of items so that you have a more stable power growth throughout the game rather than your power spiking as you transition from mid game to late game.
If you do a non-Atmogs build does the mid-game advantage translate into late-game power?
In the example above does Sunfire + Merc add any more utility than warmogs + boots 1? Does it make you better at your job which is I THINK to lock down carries and draw aggro?
I don't own jarvan but seeing people try out new builds is always fun. His skillset is so utility heavy you could probably go merc treads + 4 hogs and wardspam and still win.
On June 23 2011 00:56 rwrzr wrote: If you do a non-Atmogs build does the mid-game advantage translate into late-game power?
It is what you make of it, just like any other game. There's no direct correlation, it's just a question of whether it's better to hit your "sweet spot" sooner or later.
On June 23 2011 00:56 rwrzr wrote: In the example above does Sunfire + Merc add any more utility than warmogs + boots 1? Does it make you better at your job which is I THINK to lock down carries and draw aggro?
Sunfire + Merc would dish out better damage and most likely be more durable and provide better mobility than a brand spankin' new Warmog's + Boots 1. As the game progresses though, Warmog's gives much better pure stat efficiency as you stack it and it synergizes better with other items like Atma's Impaler and Force of Nature.
On June 23 2011 00:56 rwrzr wrote: I don't own jarvan but seeing people try out new builds is always fun. His skillset is so utility heavy you could probably go merc treads + 4 hogs and wardspam and still win.
Hog stacking no longer works, but plenty of people ran 1-2 philo + 2-3 HoG -> big ticket items like triforce, FoN, Frozen Mallet, etc. prior to this patch.
On June 23 2011 02:05 Southlight wrote: Incidentally it's why I opted for Giant -> Atma -> Warmog on Irelia, to try to hit power levels earlier. Did you try that order on Jarv? :x
no because I wanted a brutalizer on Jarman anyway so I just got brutalizer pre-mogs to bolster my early damage output.
On June 23 2011 02:07 MoonBear wrote: Randomly throwing this out here, but what do you think of running Gold Quints? Or is the loss of APen too much?
I wouldn't do it. ArPen is too rare and valuable a stat to piss away on gold/10 on a champion who has no issues farming whatsoever.
I just did triple gold/10 in the jungle and it felt pretty super since it let me run around with a stack of wards, oracles and wriggles and just give my team map presence all through the mid game. Would do again.
i dont think warmog atmas is gud at all takes way too much farm right now i like philo hog brut giantbelt phage mallet i really dontl ike using mallet but i feel that jarvan really needs the hp and idk where-else to get it from gonna mess around a bit more 2moro when i wake up 21/0/9 with W over E seems pretty standard i think i underestimated how gud W is in a teamfight where u get the full 5 ppl bonus from shield
I've been playing Jarman all day and I am amazed that I missed this gem of a hero when I first bought him. He's like impossible to do bad with. Even when you mess up there are so many easy opportunities to just randomly DEMACIA someone's head into the ground.
Also he is EASILY the easiest melee champion to last hit with. His beautiful animation and extra damage on the first attack makes it a breeze.
best bruiser period neo. need I remind you of FFIV pics.
loco, mog's is still the most efficient way to get a fuckton of HP. I generally hate mallet because you end up paying almost the entire recipe just for upgrading the phage slow proc (stats bonuses aren't much more than the sum of the parts) and that just makes me too sad a panda to be able to justify it over mogs. the way I used to get my HP was to just buy giant's belt + cata -> sunfire + veil before I just said screw it and stuck to warmog's. Alternately you could just do exactly what you're saying you've been doing except say fuck the frozen mallet and the end and just turn the giant's belt into a sunfire cape with the intent to turn the phage into a Triforce if the game goes super retardedly late. Biggest problem I've had experimenting with non-mog's builds recently is that without mog's you have a hard time sustaining yourself in drawn out fights.
Regen in general is highly underrated. People just ignore blatantly OP gold efficiency stats that involve regen because they think regen is a worthless stat late into the game (I'm guilty too; see Philostone being OP as hell for months and months and only recently get the attention it deserved). Then they have to b to heal for baron after they aced + pushed an inhib when a tank with warmog's would've been at 85% HP at that point from regening during the push and end up losing baron because of it. Good thing you ignored the over 1.3K worth of regen on Warmogs when considering its efficiency bro! Yes, that's right, stacked warmog's gives over 1.3K worth of regen. Will that help you vs. burst? no. Does that make it useless on a tank after the laning phase? -_- <---- Mogwai face. Late game tanks eat a lot of poking and tank towers and survive fights, take objectives and then sometimes can't afford to back. Having that sustainability late game still helps way more than anyone is really willing to acknowledge.
103 HP/5 with Philo, Full Warmogs and FoN is boss, especially if you consider how much effective HP that is.
To put it into perspective, that's the same healthregen someone with Baron buff and 3500 total HP gets.
Champions like Jarvan (similar to old renek and, to some extent, Irelia) are all about creating the issue of a) Focus him. Die to team. Trollolol. b) Ignore him. Get penta'd by him while you chase their squishies around his trollolol CC.
Healthregen helps so much there because no one will really try to burst you down cause it's kinda retarded, however, you're going to eat all the random AoE stuff and skillshots thrown around.
On June 24 2011 11:52 Chairman Ray wrote: I just played a couple games of Jarvan, and that philo nerf is really noticeable. Gotta be really conservative with mana now.
You dont really even need to spam his skills, i picked him up after the philo nerf and if you dont use them unless you need to he's fine. I don't even use mana regen runes
On June 24 2011 11:44 r.Evo wrote: 103 HP/5 with Philo, Full Warmogs and FoN is boss, especially if you consider how much effective HP that is.
To put it into perspective, that's the same healthregen someone with Baron buff and 3500 total HP gets.
Champions like Jarvan (similar to old renek and, to some extent, Irelia) are all about creating the issue of a) Focus him. Die to team. Trollolol. b) Ignore him. Get penta'd by him while you chase their squishies around his trollolol CC.
Healthregen helps so much there because no one will really try to burst you down cause it's kinda retarded, however, you're going to eat all the random AoE stuff and skillshots thrown around.
and that's not even counting FoN's passive unique.
On June 24 2011 11:52 Chairman Ray wrote: I just played a couple games of Jarvan, and that philo nerf is really noticeable. Gotta be really conservative with mana now.
You dont really even need to spam his skills, i picked him up after the philo nerf and if you dont use them unless you need to he's fine. I don't even use mana regen runes
This is true, but it's noticeable if you want to be aggressive in lane. With double philo you could spam your Q and EQ combo all day and rely on your regen to wear down the other laner until a gank came or you could get enough burst from EQR + autoattacks to kill them.
That's not to say it's bad now, you just can't trololol Q spam to harass your opponent out of lane, you have to pick your spots and be more effective with your mana.
Roaming Jarvan viable lower ELO. Great ganks early lvl, and can kill a tower by the time the enemy respawns with the help of flag. Last game, got both top towers down and the mid tower before 11 min mark.
Few Jarman questions? What's the 21/0/9 build for laning? Do you take Archaic Knowledge? I know it only affecs E and passive but it doesn't seem like minion damage or aspd are too gud on lane Jarman either.
Also, do you still run Atmogs on Junglejarman? I mean as Junglejarman your main goal is to be tanky but you won't get that much farm to make Atmogs useful I think.
typically warmogs isnt very good on junglers due to the fact that you simply wont be able to farm the stats up very quickly (unless you're mordekaiser or yi). On jungling i would opt for bruta into sunfire+bveil route instead.
On June 24 2011 11:52 Chairman Ray wrote: I just played a couple games of Jarvan, and that philo nerf is really noticeable. Gotta be really conservative with mana now.
You dont really even need to spam his skills, i picked him up after the philo nerf and if you dont use them unless you need to he's fine. I don't even use mana regen runes
This is true, but it's noticeable if you want to be aggressive in lane. With double philo you could spam your Q and EQ combo all day and rely on your regen to wear down the other laner until a gank came or you could get enough burst from EQR + autoattacks to kill them.
That's not to say it's bad now, you just can't trololol Q spam to harass your opponent out of lane, you have to pick your spots and be more effective with your mana.
You can still kill people with QER, i do it all the time. You just cant spam.
I go 1 philo stone, boots, brutalizer, mogs, then either atma or negatron depending on how much my shit is getting pushed in
On June 27 2011 04:01 barbsq wrote: typically warmogs isnt very good on junglers due to the fact that you simply wont be able to farm the stats up very quickly (unless you're mordekaiser or yi). On jungling i would opt for bruta into sunfire+bveil route instead.
Honestly I feel that warmogs fills up quickly on any jungler that does some kind of AoE. Noc, Jarman, Olaf, Yi. Even trundle is fine. It usually takes 2-3 teamfights for it to be completely stacked but that should be enough if you add in some random creepkills here and there.
Don't be that I GOT WARMOGS NOW IMA FARM CREEPWAVES OFF MAH CARRY-guy.
On June 27 2011 04:01 barbsq wrote: typically warmogs isnt very good on junglers due to the fact that you simply wont be able to farm the stats up very quickly (unless you're mordekaiser or yi). On jungling i would opt for bruta into sunfire+bveil route instead.
Honestly I feel that warmogs fills up quickly on any jungler that does some kind of AoE. Noc, Jarman, Olaf, Yi. Even trundle is fine. It usually takes 2-3 teamfights for it to be completely stacked but that should be enough if you add in some random creepkills here and there.
Don't be that I GOT WARMOGS NOW IMA FARM CREEPWAVES OFF MAH CARRY-guy.
Jarman has 2(if you count knockup 3) AOE and he has easy ways to land all 3! If you go warmogs teamfight and collect your free charges!
On June 27 2011 04:01 barbsq wrote: typically warmogs isnt very good on junglers due to the fact that you simply wont be able to farm the stats up very quickly (unless you're mordekaiser or yi). On jungling i would opt for bruta into sunfire+bveil route instead.
Honestly I feel that warmogs fills up quickly on any jungler that does some kind of AoE. Noc, Jarman, Olaf, Yi. Even trundle is fine. It usually takes 2-3 teamfights for it to be completely stacked but that should be enough if you add in some random creepkills here and there.
Don't be that I GOT WARMOGS NOW IMA FARM CREEPWAVES OFF MAH CARRY-guy.
Jarman has 2(if you count knockup 3) AOE and he has easy ways to land all 3! If you go warmogs teamfight and collect your free charges!
to be honest i find hitting moving targets with the flag iffy at times
On June 27 2011 04:01 barbsq wrote: typically warmogs isnt very good on junglers due to the fact that you simply wont be able to farm the stats up very quickly (unless you're mordekaiser or yi). On jungling i would opt for bruta into sunfire+bveil route instead.
Honestly I feel that warmogs fills up quickly on any jungler that does some kind of AoE. Noc, Jarman, Olaf, Yi. Even trundle is fine. It usually takes 2-3 teamfights for it to be completely stacked but that should be enough if you add in some random creepkills here and there.
Don't be that I GOT WARMOGS NOW IMA FARM CREEPWAVES OFF MAH CARRY-guy.
Doesn't matter if it fills slowly, its far more efficient than both sunfire and bveil. Warmogs+Atmas is cheaper and much better than sunfire+bveil even before you charge up warmogs.
I jungle more offensively because I feel more comfortable hitting my levels in a reasonable timeframe rather than focusing on early roaming. I've tried the EU style jungling and I just feel so gimped if none of my early ganks result in kills, but it might have to do with less reliable teammates in solo queue.
On June 28 2011 04:33 Mogwai wrote: I jungle more offensively because I feel more comfortable hitting my levels in a reasonable timeframe rather than focusing on early roaming. I've tried the EU style jungling and I just feel so gimped if none of my early ganks result in kills, but it might have to do with less reliable teammates in solo queue.
do you start at blue? is a leash necessary after the nerf? thx
both styles can start blue without a leash, but they both benefit greatly from getting a leash so get a fucking leash because it doesn't do your laner any harm.
There's a first post for a reason. I like my jungling there. EU style is a fuckton of armor on your runepage with 0/21/9 and regrowth pendant opening -> PhiloHoG before wriggles.
On June 28 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote: There's a first post for a reason. I like my jungling there. EU style is a fuckton of armor on your runepage with 0/21/9 and regrowth pendant opening -> PhiloHoG before wriggles.
Is it normal to get really low (~ 200hp) after the first clear with your junglebuild? With leash and all pots used that is.
On June 28 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote: There's a first post for a reason. I like my jungling there. EU style is a fuckton of armor on your runepage with 0/21/9 and regrowth pendant opening -> PhiloHoG before wriggles.
Is it normal to get really low (~ 200hp) after the first clear with your junglebuild? With leash and all pots used that is.
Seems too low, do you do the hit-everything-once-then-EQ-them strat for every camp?
On June 28 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote: There's a first post for a reason. I like my jungling there. EU style is a fuckton of armor on your runepage with 0/21/9 and regrowth pendant opening -> PhiloHoG before wriggles.
Is it normal to get really low (~ 200hp) after the first clear with your junglebuild? With leash and all pots used that is.
Seems too low, do you do the hit-everything-once-then-EQ-them strat for every camp?
No that's probably why, I just EQd when i felt liked it and attacked one target
On June 29 2011 23:05 Mogwai wrote: sticking to single big targets is better than microing your passive and yes you should be getting fairly low on the first clear.
GG LoL n00b game what do i do with the other 295+ APM i have remaining?
On June 29 2011 23:05 Mogwai wrote: sticking to single big targets is better than microing your passive and yes you should be getting fairly low on the first clear.
GG LoL n00b game what do i do with the other 295+ APM i have remaining?
Spam /t and /d like dyrus, what else?
BTW, this jarvan build is REAL. I've been destroying with it lately.
On June 28 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote: There's a first post for a reason. I like my jungling there. EU style is a fuckton of armor on your runepage with 0/21/9 and regrowth pendant opening -> PhiloHoG before wriggles.
Is it normal to get really low (~ 200hp) after the first clear with your junglebuild? With leash and all pots used that is.
Only if you don't get a leash on blue. You should end at like 60%+ hp if you get no help other than a leash.
I go EQQW blue>wolves>wraiths>red>golems. E every CD for blue, EQ once on wraiths and one more E, EQ wraiths twice, EQ red on CD, and EQ golems as mp permits. Cloth 5pots 0/21/9 flat armor yellows
Smash, do you have a video or a replay or something of you jungling as Jarvan? I literally don't understand how you're clearing the whole thing the first time.
On July 03 2011 04:56 arnath wrote: Smash, do you have a video or a replay or something of you jungling as Jarvan? I literally don't understand how you're clearing the whole thing the first time.
I'll be streaming tonight somewhere around 10:15 PM EST or so and tomorrow and Thursday, I'll try to work a Jungle Jarman game in for you.
Bought this guy a while ago but didn't get around to playing him now. Did fairly well in both games I played (6-5-25 combined or something; rankged) building tanky after the initial Philo/HoG.
Seems like a better pick than Nasus so I guess I'll be using him more now.
On July 02 2011 10:07 Black Paper Moon wrote: Apropos to this thread:
This is probably the best picture I've ever seen.
Where is it? I have it. It's your ass that got handed to you by triple atmogs..... ^_^
I've been trying something different on Jarman recently, since I was getting tired of rushing warmogs every game. Open wriggles and level 1 boots as usual, get HoG after that, then mercs - randuins - trinity force - FoN - w/e.
It's got way higher damage than going atmogs, but then again I've only ever tried single and not triple. I think a big downside of this is that you don't get much MR aside from your mercs until you finish FoN, sacrificing it for craploads of on-hit effects. I've noticed the Phage+Sheen+Randuins on-hit effects can seriously mess with a lot of team comps, especially assassins like Irelia and Xin....
well, my old build was wriggles -> tanking items, so I've had periods that have suggested wriggles is very strong. but I don't think it solves my current problem which is that every high sustainability laner seems to take a massive dump on Jarman right now. Honestly, I don't think there's a solution and that I will have to leave Jarman in the jungle or as a char to use vs. non super-sustainable laners
Yeah, I always jungle with him for that reason. His clear time is higher than warwick or morde or w/e, but his ganks are pretty strong with red buff plus knockup plus slow, especially if you are ganking a lane with a sustainable laner in it like irelia.
I don't know why he's not banned in every ranked, imo very worth a ban if people know how to build him.
They didn't really nerf him that much..... Last two patches they reduced the bonus armor on his E from 26/22 at max level, and attack speed from 26% to 22%, his passive down to 8%, and the damage on both his E and Q by about 15 each. I think he's still a really good off tank-dps but definitely not as imbalanced as before. The only problem I have with using him is that he is pretty vulnerable to being CC'd into the ground. No EQW+R on their entire team basically makes him useless, which is why I've started trying to build him with more on hit effects to provide some utility.
When you say meta shifting, I'm assuming you mean the use of really sustainable characters in top lane to keep him from free farming.... My thing is that whenever I try to get a solo lane, people at my ELO just start trolling and take a vacation for the rest of the game, so I generally leave him in the jungle. Plus irelia is super popular in elo hell, and she destroys jarvan in top lane...
On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: They didn't really nerf him that much..... Last two patches they reduced the bonus armor on his E from 26/22 at max level, and attack speed from 26% to 22%, his passive down to 8%, and the damage on both his E and Q by about 15 each.
steroid nerfed by ~15%, passive nerfed by 20%, and both nukes base damage nerfed by 5-10% is actually a pretty significant set of nerfs.
On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: I think he's still a really good off tank-dps but definitely not as imbalanced as before. The only problem I have with using him is that he is pretty vulnerable to being CC'd into the ground. No EQW+R on their entire team basically makes him useless, which is why I've started trying to build him with more on hit effects to provide some utility.
His damage is frontloaded and he can initiate from forever far away... Honestly he's probably the least susceptible tanky dude in the game other than those with built in CC redux (irelia, olaf, mundo and singed).
On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: When you say meta shifting, I'm assuming you mean the use of really sustainable characters in top lane to keep him from free farming....
more like they just zone him because they can just trade hits and he can't recover from the damage whereas they can. He gets ruined pretty badly by WW, Udyr, Yorick.
On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: My thing is that whenever I try to get a solo lane, people at my ELO just start trolling and take a vacation for the rest of the game, so I generally leave him in the jungle. Plus irelia is super popular in elo hell, and she destroys jarvan in top lane...
dafuck? Jarman ruins Irelia. Early level Irelia is pretty damn forgettable, so she either needs to open cloth + 5 or get absolutely ruined by Jarman's early burst trades. If you force her to open cloth + 5, you set her back 175 gold in potions and force a 300 gold commitment to something that she doesn't really want early, so you get your Gold/10s way ahead of her and push her to her tower to make her chug mana to get last hits, which ends up winning you the lane by simply getting a fuckton more farm.
On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: My thing is that whenever I try to get a solo lane, people at my ELO just start trolling and take a vacation for the rest of the game, so I generally leave him in the jungle. Plus irelia is super popular in elo hell, and she destroys jarvan in top lane...
dafuck? Jarman ruins Irelia. Early level Irelia is pretty damn forgettable, so she either needs to open cloth + 5 or get absolutely ruined by Jarman's early burst trades. If you force her to open cloth + 5, you set her back 175 gold in potions and force a 300 gold commitment to something that she doesn't really want early, so you get your Gold/10s way ahead of her and push her to her tower to make her chug mana to get last hits, which ends up winning you the lane by simply getting a fuckton more farm.
Glad I wasnt the only one that felt this way. Irelia doesn't have nearly enough sustain until 6 to trade with jarvman
steroid nerfed by ~15%, passive nerfed by 20%, and both nukes base damage nerfed by 5-10% is actually a pretty significant set of nerfs.
If you look at pure percentages, that's true, but by just straight damage and armor numbers they aren't that much. I still think he's pretty viable in the jungle, but his clear time is slow if you take 0/21/9 which I don't like to do as much. 21/0/9 is normal for me but I find myself being much squishier.
I've been trying to open regrowth and then go philo - wriggles - hog, but I feel like getting wriggles after philo and level 1 boots is kind of a waste, since you dont need either the lifesteal, damage, or armor to clear camps at that level. However if you get it first and then go philo, I feel like the g/10 from philo comes too late to make it worth it.
His damage is frontloaded and he can initiate from forever far away... Honestly he's probably the least susceptible tanky dude in the game other than those with built in CC redux (irelia, olaf, mundo and singed).
Am I initiating wrong? Normally I just EQ to get in range, knockup if I can, R on someone and then W... I find that after I EQ most of the time I get a stun or something else dropped on me, which hurts the teamfight overall because it's much tougher to land a good R after they CC you.
dafuck? Jarman ruins Irelia. Early level Irelia is pretty damn forgettable, so she either needs to open cloth + 5 or get absolutely ruined by Jarman's early burst trades. If you force her to open cloth + 5, you set her back 175 gold in potions and force a 300 gold commitment to something that she doesn't really want early, so you get your Gold/10s way ahead of her and push her to her tower to make her chug mana to get last hits, which ends up winning you the lane by simply getting a fuckton more farm.
I must be doing it wrong. When you say burst trades, you mean opening E or Q and just using it while abusing your passive on her? Every time I've been against irelia I get traded down by her true damage + stun.
Is pushing a lane that fast good though, since you make yourself much more open to getting ganked? I'm still climbing out of elo hell trying to learn the game, so sorry if I ask stupid question.
steroid nerfed by ~15%, passive nerfed by 20%, and both nukes base damage nerfed by 5-10% is actually a pretty significant set of nerfs.
If you look at pure percentages, that's true, but by just straight damage and armor numbers they aren't that much. I still think he's pretty viable in the jungle, but his clear time is slow if you take 0/21/9 which I don't like to do as much. 21/0/9 is normal for me but I find myself being much squishier.
%s are the most useful way of looking at nerfs.
Like, say hypothetically that they were to nerf Karthus's level 1 Q from 60 damage to 54 damage. It's easy to say something like, "lol, only nerfed Karthus's level 1 Q by 6 damage, who cares about 6 damage" but in cases like this you're losing the context of that 6 damage (low CD spammable skill). If instead you look at it as Karthus losing 10% of his level 1 Q's damage, the gravity of the nerf is more apparent. btw, this is 99% of the reason why characters secretly become OP/UP overnight. People don't analyse buffs and nerfs appropriately and underestimate the effects of "tweaking stats."
On July 13 2011 02:00 HyperionDreamer wrote: I've been trying to open regrowth and then go philo - wriggles - hog, but I feel like getting wriggles after philo and level 1 boots is kind of a waste, since you dont need either the lifesteal, damage, or armor to clear camps at that level. However if you get it first and then go philo, I feel like the g/10 from philo comes too late to make it worth it.
I've been playing a lot of jungle jarman on my stream recently. 0/21/9, open regrowth, grab Philo + HoG and then Wriggles. Yes, I know, late wriggles... YOU STILL NEED IT. Your later jungling speed tapers off REALLY REALLY fast if you don't grab that wriggles because early you're basically just getting away with raping camps off the base damages of Q and E, but as they get stronger, you're simply going to chug through too much mana and take too much time to farm jungle camps during downtime.
His damage is frontloaded and he can initiate from forever far away... Honestly he's probably the least susceptible tanky dude in the game other than those with built in CC redux (irelia, olaf, mundo and singed).
Am I initiating wrong? Normally I just EQ to get in range, knockup if I can, R on someone and then W... I find that after I EQ most of the time I get a stun or something else dropped on me, which hurts the teamfight overall because it's much tougher to land a good R after they CC you.
so you're a tank, you just CCed multiple enemy players AND drew some of their CC and you're considering this an initiating failure? if Jarman could do this every time he'd be ban/FP material in every single competitive game because that's boss as hell. only things that sound wrong in your description there is that you're rushing/forcing ult (wait on it more, his ult shouldn't always be an immediate follow up since it can often screw you/teammates) and not being sure that you're knocking someone one (seriously, you should never fail to knock up at least 1 person when E->Qing into a fight).
dafuck? Jarman ruins Irelia. Early level Irelia is pretty damn forgettable, so she either needs to open cloth + 5 or get absolutely ruined by Jarman's early burst trades. If you force her to open cloth + 5, you set her back 175 gold in potions and force a 300 gold commitment to something that she doesn't really want early, so you get your Gold/10s way ahead of her and push her to her tower to make her chug mana to get last hits, which ends up winning you the lane by simply getting a fuckton more farm.
I must be doing it wrong. When you say burst trades, you mean opening E or Q and just using it while abusing your passive on her? Every time I've been against irelia I get traded down by her true damage + stun.
starting at level 2 you just E->Q->passive irelia and she takes 1/3-1/2 her HP in burst without having a strong retaliation. You win because your passive is a nuke, you have 2 other nukes, 1 of those other nukes gives you over 20 armor and irelia's nukes are mana inefficient and her attacks get raped by your bonus armor. you just burst, run into your creepwave and then stand and fight if she tries to fight you under your own creep.
On July 13 2011 02:00 HyperionDreamer wrote: Is pushing a lane that fast good though, since you make yourself much more open to getting ganked? I'm still climbing out of elo hell trying to learn the game, so sorry if I ask stupid question.
I'm saying you just shove the creep wave all the way up to her tower and then B, grab philo + Ward and then can continue to do that and end up ahead. You have a considerable pushing advantage in the matchup on top of having a considerable 1v1ing advantage at levels 1-5, it's just a matter of knowing how to use these advantages appropriately.
You ideally want to land E very close if not ontop of your target and then Q in for the knock up. If you're not in melee range after doing that, then there is some problem.
Are you getting merc treads? thats the only boots I've been getting on jarvan and I never have a problem in team fights unless I'm trying to like 1v5 and dive two towers or something dumb.
You should crush irelia with EQ auto attack and then back off. If she activates W then you just run and don't fight her until it's over, ezpz
Like, say hypothetically that they were to nerf Karthus's level 1 Q from 60 damage to 54 damage. It's easy to say something like, "lol, only nerfed Karthus's level 1 Q by 6 damage, who cares about 6 damage" but in cases like this you're losing the context of that 6 damage (low CD spammable skill). If instead you look at it as Karthus losing 10% of his level 1 Q's damage, the gravity of the nerf is more apparent. btw, this is 99% of the reason why characters secretly become OP/UP overnight. People don't analyse buffs and nerfs appropriately and underestimate the effects of "tweaking stats."
So I understand that example, since 10% of a spammable skill is significant over time. Karthus relies on that skill in lane a lot to zone, so it makes sense that nerfing it by 10% would make a difference in the whole lane context.
But jarvan I understand less. They nerfed his Q damage by around 10%, but since that's a high cooldown skill, wouldn't the argument pertaining to Karthus be less valid? I can still see that it's definitely a significant nerf, but decreasing his damage by 10% every 9 seconds (the cooldown on dragon strike IIRC) has a lot less impact on his overall damage output than low CD skills.
Sorry for pressing this, I'm still trying to learn.
I've been playing a lot of jungle jarman on my stream recently. 0/21/9, open regrowth, grab Philo + HoG and then Wriggles. Yes, I know, late wriggles... YOU STILL NEED IT. Your later jungling speed tapers off REALLY REALLY fast if you don't grab that wriggles because early you're basically just getting away with raping camps off the base damages of Q and E, but as they get stronger, you're simply going to chug through too much mana and take too much time to farm jungle camps during downtime.
What times do you normally stream, and is it under the same name, Mogwai? I'm always interested in watching high level people play, and I will open that way in future.
only things that sound wrong in your description there is that you're rushing/forcing ult (wait on it more, his ult shouldn't always be an immediate follow up since it can often screw you/teammates) and not being sure that you're knocking someone one (seriously, you should never fail to knock up at least 1 person when E->Qing into a fight).
I knock up 95% of the time. The only time it doesn't really happen is when one of their players is isolated and I use EQ to get in range for ult to keep them around until my carries can catch up and roll them. Since his ult is pretty low CD, its worth a kill i think.
starting at level 2 you just E->Q->passive irelia and she takes 1/3-1/2 her HP in burst without having a strong retaliation. You win because your passive is a nuke, you have 2 other nukes, 1 of those other nukes gives you over 20 armor and irelia's nukes are mana inefficient and her attacks get raped by your bonus armor. you just burst, run into your creepwave and then stand and fight if she tries to fight you under your own creep.
That is true, especially regarding mana on irelia. I have that problem with her in lane quite a bit until I get philo. I'm probably letting her get too many stun+free true damage combos off, which is always annoying.
On July 13 2011 02:20 Phrost wrote: You ideally want to land E very close if not ontop of your target and then Q in for the knock up. If you're not in melee range after doing that, then there is some problem.
Are you getting merc treads? thats the only boots I've been getting on jarvan and I never have a problem in team fights unless I'm trying to like 1v5 and dive two towers or something dumb.
You should crush irelia with EQ auto attack and then back off. If she activates W then you just run and don't fight her until it's over, ezpz
I don't really have problems with jarvan in lane as irelia but i run pretty defensive runes and 0/21/9 with a regrowth+pot+tele. If you position yourself right anytime he tries to combo early he will do 1/4th-1/3rd but also eat a stun and minion damage and push the lane, and if he initiates pre 6 he is prob dead if your jungler comes to help as he won't have a ward. Also once he pushes the lane simply last hit at the tower and you'll be full again by time he can re combo. If its real bad b the tele in with regroth+ another couple pots and by time you use them up you will be 6. Another big thing is predicting his e and not letting that land on you.
On July 20 2011 08:26 Craton wrote: The more I play jungle jarman, the less I like it. Just feels like you take so long to get strong.
I get the same feeling. I mean his level 2 and 3 ganks are awesome, but I just feel so slow in the jungle and really susceptible to having my camps stolen. I dunno I just always feel spectacularly underfarmed in the jungle.
Yeah, that's my problem, too. If I don't get ~2 early kills, I feel like lane phase is already over before I finish philo/hog/wriggles. In ganks, I feel as squishy as a carry.
On July 20 2011 22:36 Mogwai wrote: I just like it cause it means I get to give 'em the dick.
ftfy
Also, have you considered running more offensive masteries like 21/0/9 to pick up your clear speed? I know you like to run 21 in defense and open philo+hog, but I think there might be something to be said for opening with more aggressive masteries and a faster wriggles. Maybe that'll help.
If Jungling, I run: 21/0/9 Ghost/Smite 7 ArPen Marks, 2 Attack Speed Marks, 1 Attack Speed Quint, 2 Flat AD Quints, Flat Armor Seals, Magic Resist/Level Glyphs
From the OP....
So, uh, yeah he's definitely considered it.
I noticed it was listed in the OP, but whenever I watch him stream he runs it 0/21/9, opening philo and hog. I've been doing both builds on and off for the past few weeks, and 21/0/9 with cloth armor first seems to net you much more farm in the early game, which translates to power later on.
If Jungling, I run: 21/0/9 Ghost/Smite 7 ArPen Marks, 2 Attack Speed Marks, 1 Attack Speed Quint, 2 Flat AD Quints, Flat Armor Seals, Magic Resist/Level Glyphs
From the OP....
So, uh, yeah he's definitely considered it.
I noticed it was listed in the OP, but whenever I watch him stream he runs it 0/21/9, opening philo and hog. I've been doing both builds on and off for the past few weeks, and 21/0/9 with cloth armor first seems to net you much more farm in the early game, which translates to power later on.
the speedier path get mauled by counter jungling and leads to less consistent games at my elo. It was great at lower elos though. as it turns out, rushing wriggles leads to a much less consistent farm game and is really really reliant on getting an early gank or two to fund your wriggles early enough to not snowball out of control to an under leveled and under farmed mid game. At least that's how I saw it.
Well, what if you build whatever to how your ganks went? Obviously your going to build Razors and boots first with some wards and such (No Razors DOES lose you a lot of farm). Then, depending on how your ganks go, go Philo -> HoG -> Wriggles if they didn't go well. Wriggles -> Philo -> HoG if they did go well?
On July 20 2011 08:26 Craton wrote: The more I play jungle jarman, the less I like it. Just feels like you take so long to get strong.
I get the same feeling. I mean his level 2 and 3 ganks are awesome, but I just feel so slow in the jungle and really susceptible to having my camps stolen. I dunno I just always feel spectacularly underfarmed in the jungle.
This is how I feel when I play Udyr, I always love his level 2 or 3 ganks, but I always feel soooo underleveled. I feel oppositely with Jarman, mostly because of small golem and wraith jacks.
If Jungling, I run: 21/0/9 Ghost/Smite 7 ArPen Marks, 2 Attack Speed Marks, 1 Attack Speed Quint, 2 Flat AD Quints, Flat Armor Seals, Magic Resist/Level Glyphs
From the OP....
So, uh, yeah he's definitely considered it.
I noticed it was listed in the OP, but whenever I watch him stream he runs it 0/21/9, opening philo and hog. I've been doing both builds on and off for the past few weeks, and 21/0/9 with cloth armor first seems to net you much more farm in the early game, which translates to power later on.
the speedier path get mauled by counter jungling and leads to less consistent games at my elo. It was great at lower elos though. as it turns out, rushing wriggles leads to a much less consistent farm game and is really really reliant on getting an early gank or two to fund your wriggles early enough to not snowball out of control to an under leveled and under farmed mid game. At least that's how I saw it.
When you say much less consistent farm game, is that because of the aforementioned counterjungling? The thing I don't like about opening 0/21/9 with regrowth is that after blue - wolves - wraiths I get down to like 65 hp most of the time, and it forces me to blue pill and heal. Granted, at that time I have almost bang on 365 gold to get my philo, but going back that early leads to a lot of sacrificed map presence and leaves the door open to the counterjungling that messes with jarman so much. If you open cloth+5, you can do a straight clear skipping red and end up at full hp.
I find that most of my successful level 2-3 ganks come from punishing a lane that's overextended right around the time I'm taking my wolves or wraiths, and opening regrowth is going to leave your health a lot lower after those camps.... The biggest beef I have personally with opening philo + hog + wriggles is that I feel way too squishy in early teamfights.
I guess you could be reactive and build depending on your gank success/failure. I think one of the biggest hindrances to going with philo+hog+wriggles is that the wriggles feels so late that it's hindering you building one of your first big items like warmogs or whatever. I'd almost prefer going philo - wriggles and then going right into one of your big items, since you'll be able to finish it right around the time the opposing carries will be getting one of their big items up, which will make you more useful in team fights over dragon and such.....
Hahah, awesome OP smash. When I was reading it from the beginning, I was hoping that you would put a section in on Jarmander/Jarizard, and I was very happy to see you included it. ^_^
Slightly off topic, but since it was just being discussed, what exactly is the 'fast' jungle path vs. slow? I'm guessing fast is something like wolves -> wraith -> golems where you don't do the blue first? And why exactly is it more prone to counter-jungling?
How are you supposed to lane against akali 1v1 at top? Her Q keeps you away and her stealth cloud is annoying. I tried laning passively but that just lets akali get farmed.
On July 22 2011 08:46 calgar wrote: Slightly off topic, but since it was just being discussed, what exactly is the 'fast' jungle path vs. slow? I'm guessing fast is something like wolves -> wraith -> golems where you don't do the blue first? And why exactly is it more prone to counter-jungling?
big wolf -> blue -> small wolves -> wraiths -> red -> golems with 21 offensive. It's more prone to counter jungling because you get lower HP and are at more or less standard timings that counter junglers are trying to exploit.
On July 22 2011 10:54 nesteaplunger wrote: How are you supposed to lane against akali 1v1 at top? Her Q keeps you away and her stealth cloud is annoying. I tried laning passively but that just lets akali get farmed.
mmm, it's really snowbally. you gotta establish a lead early, which is tough at times, but I think the best way to go about it is to push the lane early and try to smack her up with an early level 2 then play ahead all the time. you should be able to negotiate burst trades since all your shit is AoE and not point and click, so you can hit her even under shroud, so again, it's all about getting ahead to start with.
I'm quite a beginner player and I've never really played tank(y DPS). I consider to buy Jarman to fill this role, do you guys think it's a good choice, or I'd better buy another champ ?
On July 23 2011 00:38 zulu_nation8 wrote: Thoughts on running flat AD quints and going 15/0/15 or 21/0/9 so that you can win the lane at level 2?
are you talking about specifically vs. Akali or what?
Jarman scales really well with ArPen because of the Armor reduction off of Q, so I tend to advocate double ArPen if you want to spec more offensively, though I guess vs. squishies that might be overkill @ level 2 and the AD would be more beneficial. I dunno, in theory it could work vs. weird matchups, but later in the game you damn well better have another real tank on your team if you're not specced 21 in defensive.
On a side note, having played a Kass vs Jarv matchup yesterday, I realized how much Jarvan got "fixed" when they fixed the glitch with his Q where it used to be flat reduc instead of %...
having gone to 0/21/9 philo>hog jungle, i am never going back to wriggles. so much more stable and you make a huge impact on lanes.
my issue is not knowing what to get past philo/hog/boots2
tried phage, but it seems kinda meh, sorta like buying triforce. alot of utility, but not much focus. brutalizer worked well for dps jarv, but do you have any suggestions for a tankier initiating jarv?
On July 25 2011 11:23 Kaneh wrote: having gone to 0/21/9 philo>hog jungle, i am never going back to wriggles. so much more stable and you make a huge impact on lanes.
my issue is not knowing what to get past philo/hog/boots2
tried phage, but it seems kinda meh, sorta like buying triforce. alot of utility, but not much focus. brutalizer worked well for dps jarv, but do you have any suggestions for a tankier initiating jarv?
I don't know, I keep playing around with both 21/0/9 wriggles and 0/21/9 philo+hog, and I can't help but like the faster clearing more offensive opening. I feel so useless before level 6 with opening philo+hog, and neglecting the lifesteal from wriggles really slows you down since you can't heal up on camps after a gank or something.
Will keep trying 0/21/9 here and there, but I'm leaning towards 21/0/9 right now.
W.R.T. items, I'd just go straight for either a negatron -> bveil/FoN if the opposing team has a lot of disables or a chain vest into randuins if you need the extra armor. If you're opening with such defensive masteries and items, I figure you may as well not beat around the bush and start building your big items like FoN/randuins, not to mention the fact that chain vest and negatron are two of the most cost effiicient resistance-granting items in the game the last time I checked.
On July 25 2011 12:25 Sponkz wrote: I know i might get bashed on for this, but i would totally go for a sunfire cape if 0/21/9. Gives you some much needed health+the passive is nice.
Off-topic: How can chain-vest and negatron be cost effective when they're white items in which you build into bigger items? Me confused.
Name an item that gives you more armor per gold spent than Chain Vest. Name an item that gives you more MR per gold spent than Negatron.
They don't exist.
If you're looking purely for armor or MR, Chain Vest and Negatron are as good as it gets.
There are also the lesser forms of them (cloth armor/nmm), but since they're the best in efficiency, they becomes the gold standard to compare things to.
Other (bigger) pieces gain other stats, so you compare the other base items to that.
The thing is all items that chain mail and negatron grow into have added utility for which you're paying in the combine cost, which make them less efficient. When you're concerned with surviving in the first place, nothing beats neg + chain mail.
On July 25 2011 12:30 Sponkz wrote: Yeah of course, but when talking cost efficiency aren't you basing that calculation (either armor or mres) from chain vest/negatron?
All the armour and magic resist item give something that's usually terrible like health regen, or mana, or else you pay a lot for something that might not be useful most of the time (wardens mail, sunfire cape).
Question for you Smash, when you go 0/21/9 with regrowth do you get really really low on your first clear? I do blue -> wolves -> wraiths and after the third camp I'm almost dead, maybe 50-60 hp....
That's literally the only reason I'm favouring 21/0/9 right now, I just hate being so low so fast, if you can gank a lane and such after blue/wolves you can do it opening more offensive, whereas you feel so passive before philo+hog+wriggles.... My jungle playstyle is lots of countering, lots of ganking/pressure, I just have such a hard time doing that with 0/21/9 but I see you play pretty aggressive on stream with jungle jarman. How do you do it????
Might be because I don't have the attack speed runes, but how much more Aspd does 3 runes really give?
Leash is generally ok, I can do the blue while remaining about 3/4 HP with the defensive set....
Wraiths are the ones that hurt the most. I just EQ into them all and then focus the big one first rather than microing my passive on all the wraiths. Have tried to do what you do, lining them up for Q, but then I find the big one lasts too long and the same amount of damage gets done.
Not a big deal, just wondering if I was doing anything that's incredibly wrong. I'll practice it.
Guinsoo had an ominous tweet about Jarvan. Best guess is he was alluding to the change they're doing with cataclysm (so you can flash it without bringing Jarvan along) being a nerf. 'Cause if its anything else (aka another nerf) they're goddamn crazy.
On August 03 2011 00:48 Craton wrote: Guinsoo had an ominous tweet about Jarvan. Best guess is he was alluding to the change they're doing with cataclysm (so you can flash it without bringing Jarvan along) being a nerf. 'Cause if its anything else (aka another nerf) they're goddamn crazy.
I don't even see it as a problem entirely.... I can understand taking it out when the target is using summoner flash, but if you're using a dash like corki's valkyrie and the dash concludes before Jarvan's animation finishes, I don't see a problem with jarvan following his target?
The problem is with the coding - they'll never be able to take it out with flash and leave it in using skills.
On August 03 2011 00:48 Craton wrote: Guinsoo had an ominous tweet about Jarvan. Best guess is he was alluding to the change they're doing with cataclysm (so you can flash it without bringing Jarvan along) being a nerf. 'Cause if its anything else (aka another nerf) they're goddamn crazy.
On August 03 2011 01:28 spinesheath wrote: Fun stuff: sometimes Jarvan will even follow your Flash out of his ultimate after he already autoattacked you once.
This definitely should be gone, for both Flash and champion skills.
Now that's definitely a bug.... I've never seen it, although that would be pretty lolz.
Agree that this should be removed, but I still don't mind it for champion dash skills (lee sin W, corki valkyrie etc).
On August 03 2011 01:28 spinesheath wrote: Fun stuff: sometimes Jarvan will even follow your Flash out of his ultimate after he already autoattacked you once.
This definitely should be gone, for both Flash and champion skills.
Now that's definitely a bug.... I've never seen it, although that would be pretty lolz.
Agree that this should be removed, but I still don't mind it for champion dash skills (lee sin W, corki valkyrie etc).
It happened. I was the guy that flashed. I was silenced or something like that so I wasn't able to flash right away. So I flash out and suddenly Jarvan stands right next to me. Instant teleport without any sort of animation. I died.
On August 03 2011 01:28 spinesheath wrote: Fun stuff: sometimes Jarvan will even follow your Flash out of his ultimate after he already autoattacked you once.
This definitely should be gone, for both Flash and champion skills.
Now that's definitely a bug.... I've never seen it, although that would be pretty lolz.
Agree that this should be removed, but I still don't mind it for champion dash skills (lee sin W, corki valkyrie etc).
It happened. I was the guy that flashed. I was silenced or something like that so I wasn't able to flash right away. So I flash out and suddenly Jarvan stands right next to me. Instant teleport without any sort of animation. I died.
Yeah, that's bad. When I said that I'm OK with it for champion skills, I meant the case where Jarvan is still in the process of jumping on you and a skill is used, thus putting you out of the spot where Jarvan originally jumped to - in this case, I'm OK with Jarvan following the dash and his cataclysm still surrounding you.
But if you're already INSIDE the cataclysm, flash out of it, and Jarvan follows, that's clearly not intended, and I agree that should be fixed.
if you flash while I'm midair, tough titties, Jarman should follow you. No popping in air projectiles, I'm a projectile, makes fucking sense if you ask me. some of the weird ass teles after they flash after you land from ult should be removed but I don't want people do be able to flash dodge my biggest and only non-skillshot nuke.
Meh, I look at it this way: Jarvan's ult creates a wall, one of the strongest CCs in the game, and when I cast that ult I would want the wall to appear where I initially wanted it to be. Sure if someone flashes while Jarvan jumps he should still take the damage.
I'm pissed because I now want to get SmashGizbro up to level 30 and get gold on that account so that I can have it on 3 accounts, but I dunno if I can really grind an account up to 30 from 10 over the course of a month without dying of normal game boredom.
On August 04 2011 00:34 Mogwai wrote: I'm pissed because I now want to get SmashGizbro up to level 30 and get gold on that account so that I can have it on 3 accounts, but I dunno if I can really grind an account up to 30 from 10 over the course of a month without dying of normal game boredom.
TheHazMat was 1800 before I queue dodged it to 1300. Sad day.
Been trolling by stacking 5 tiamats, it works surprisingly well in teamfights and everyone gets bunched up with R (it also solves jarvan's mana issues :D)
Really likethis guide to him but some build orders can be a bit better. On solo i usually run gor phil stone mercury boots brutalizer warthmog atmas banshee trinity and finish ghost blade. This build makes you able to take a lot of dmg while doing ton of dmg over time
On September 21 2011 16:13 Hexagecz wrote: Really likethis guide to him but some build orders can be a bit better. On solo i usually run gor phil stone mercury boots brutalizer warthmog atmas banshee trinity and finish ghost blade. This build makes you able to take a lot of dmg while doing ton of dmg over time
On September 21 2011 16:13 Hexagecz wrote: Really likethis guide to him but some build orders can be a bit better. On solo i usually run gor phil stone mercury boots brutalizer warthmog atmas banshee trinity and finish ghost blade. This build makes you able to take a lot of dmg while doing ton of dmg over time
I seriously should just stop posting on forums everywhere because they're seriously going to give me a serious aneurysm and I'm just going to seriously die.
seriously.
super srs.
like, the process of me going insane has already been set in motion.
On September 22 2011 00:03 Mogwai wrote: I seriously should just stop posting on forums everywhere because they're seriously going to give me a serious aneurysm and I'm just going to seriously die.
seriously.
super srs.
like, the process of me going insane has already been set in motion.
I still appreciate your advice.
EDIT: But hm. We do need some form of quality control on these boards.
On September 21 2011 16:13 Hexagecz wrote: Really likethis guide to him but some build orders can be a bit better. On solo i usually run gor phil stone mercury boots brutalizer warthmog atmas banshee trinity and finish ghost blade. This build makes you able to take a lot of dmg while doing ton of dmg over time
...
This is how I felt in the Kassadin thread.
Now you feel the joy that I felt that made me launch into a tirade about respect.
We could call them moderators. And give them the power to ban people who made stupid posts. Hell, we could even give them special icons and change the colors of their names so that people knew who they were. And then we could create a sub group of moderators whose job it was was to JUST ban people. Hell, its a Starcraft forum, we could even give them a cute name like "banmarines." And then we could make an active and respected member of our community into one in order to clean up this forum. I dunno, someone like Shikyo or Zalz.
On September 21 2011 16:13 Hexagecz wrote: Really likethis guide to him but some build orders can be a bit better. On solo i usually run gor phil stone mercury boots brutalizer warthmog atmas banshee trinity and finish ghost blade. This build makes you able to take a lot of dmg while doing ton of dmg over time
...
This is how I felt in the Kassadin thread.
Now you feel the joy that I felt that made me launch into a tirade about respect.
I deleted the start of a rant and replace it with that ellipses. I'm starting to learn to control the rage towards retarded posts! But it's a process, I dunno how long I'll be able to hold out.
also, lol @ T_D
ALSO GUYS, HE HAS A BANSHEE'S INSTEAD OF FON IN HIS BUILD, THAT'S WHY HE LIVES SO MUCH LONGER AND DOES SO MUCH MORE DAMAGE, I WILL TRY THIS OUT AND THEN UPDATE THE OP
fuck, it's too hard T_T. I'd settle to just have an ignore list on TL. That thing is such a lifesaver on Smashboards.
oh so on a lighter note, this past weekend, I build a ninja tabi sunfire wriggle's hexdrinker atma's stark's jarizard. It still worked because all the items are fire colored.
On September 22 2011 00:36 Mogwai wrote: oh so on a lighter note, this past weekend, I build a ninja tabi sunfire wriggle's hexdrinker atma's stark's jarizard. It still worked because all the items are fire colored.
was that the game u instalock random'd j4?
i lol'd for awhile after that, reminded me of red instalock randoming ranged ad for his instalock-build-ie-lw-on-every-champ
On September 22 2011 00:36 Mogwai wrote: oh so on a lighter note, this past weekend, I build a ninja tabi sunfire wriggle's hexdrinker atma's stark's jarizard. It still worked because all the items are fire colored.
was that the game u instalock random'd j4?
i lol'd for awhile after that, reminded me of red instalock randoming ranged ad for his instalock-build-ie-lw-on-every-champ
On September 22 2011 00:36 Mogwai wrote: oh so on a lighter note, this past weekend, I build a ninja tabi sunfire wriggle's hexdrinker atma's stark's jarizard. It still worked because all the items are fire colored.
was that the game u instalock random'd j4?
i lol'd for awhile after that, reminded me of red instalock randoming ranged ad for his instalock-build-ie-lw-on-every-champ
Reminded me telling red to Shen ulti me while I mandropped into the enemy fountain. He dies and I flash Ghostblade away np.
Jarman counters assassins by out assassining them in lane.
still needs to be tested more but I feel really really good with 21/9/0, Flat AD Quints, boots + 2 dblades + brutalizer opening vs. like Akali and shit. In this new sustain vs. assassins meta shit, jarvan can't build sustain and succeed in lane, so just build towards his stupid early game scaling and full combo bitches. Just had back to back DESTRUCTIONS on Gizbro with this shit, it feels like real soloQ superstar build.
On October 11 2011 08:02 Mogwai wrote: this just in
Jarman counters assassins by out assassining them in lane.
still needs to be tested more but I feel really really good with 21/9/0, Flat AD Quints, boots + 2 dblades + brutalizer opening vs. like Akali and shit. In this new sustain vs. assassins meta shit, jarvan can't build sustain and succeed in lane, so just build towards his stupid early game scaling and full combo bitches. Just had back to back DESTRUCTIONS on Gizbro with this shit, it feels like real soloQ superstar build.
This is almost the same with what I do. I go 21/0/9,ArPen Quints/Red, Yellow Mana regen/level,Blue MR/lvl. I open with cloth + 5 pots taking solo top/mid, then go for a brutalizer if youre pawning your lane or wriggles if you are on the defensive side, then finish whatever you didnt get first. From here ill build a cleaver then put some defensive items.
The rune setup allows you to spam your 1st skill in lane. This build is what I used on every game until I reached top 2 on solo ranked in our local server.
On October 11 2011 08:02 Mogwai wrote: this just in
Jarman counters assassins by out assassining them in lane.
still needs to be tested more but I feel really really good with 21/9/0, Flat AD Quints, boots + 2 dblades + brutalizer opening vs. like Akali and shit. In this new sustain vs. assassins meta shit, jarvan can't build sustain and succeed in lane, so just build towards his stupid early game scaling and full combo bitches. Just had back to back DESTRUCTIONS on Gizbro with this shit, it feels like real soloQ superstar build.
This is almost the same with what I do. I go 21/0/9,ArPen Quints/Red, Yellow Mana regen/level,Blue MR/lvl. I open with cloth + 5 pots taking solo top/mid, then go for a brutalizer if youre pawning your lane or wriggles if you are on the defensive side, then finish whatever you didnt get first. From here ill build a cleaver then put some defensive items.
The rune setup allows you to spam your 1st skill in lane and always try to hit the enemy once because the passive really does too much damage early game. This build is what I used on every game until I reached top 2 on solo ranked in our local server.
On October 11 2011 08:02 Mogwai wrote: this just in
Jarman counters assassins by out assassining them in lane.
still needs to be tested more but I feel really really good with 21/9/0, Flat AD Quints, boots + 2 dblades + brutalizer opening vs. like Akali and shit. In this new sustain vs. assassins meta shit, jarvan can't build sustain and succeed in lane, so just build towards his stupid early game scaling and full combo bitches. Just had back to back DESTRUCTIONS on Gizbro with this shit, it feels like real soloQ superstar build.
This is almost the same with what I do. I go 21/0/9,ArPen Quints/Red, Yellow Mana regen/level,Blue MR/lvl. I open with cloth + 5 pots taking solo top/mid, then go for a brutalizer if youre pawning your lane or wriggles if you are on the defensive side, then finish whatever you didnt get first. From here ill build a cleaver then put some defensive items.
The rune setup allows you to spam your 1st skill in lane and always try to hit the enemy once because the passive really does too much damage early game. This build is what I used on every game until I reached top 2 on solo ranked in our local server.
I've only been opening 21/9/0 for a while now. Nimbleness, standard AD 21 offense. Openings vary from boots (against casters mid or against enemy boot openings) regrowth (when a little more regen from trades is better, and when additional pots are not needed) and very rarely cloth/5pot.
AD quints apen/farmor/fmres. Apen quints can be more useful vs those who run flat armor or open cloth but your armor reduction from Q + 21 apen from runes and masteries is enough. With this you start with low armor and 51 magic resist, 510 HP, making you very potent vs someone who relies on magic damage.
You do what you can at level one, Q and followed by autoattacks when enemy comes near you. EQ autos level 2+. Flash ignite to get kills early or zone out heavily.
I sometimes even opened longsword when I knew I wouldn't need hpregen or boots.
If I go Brut then I take plenty of pots in lane. After it's standard warmogs-atmas build with mercs.
On October 11 2011 08:02 Mogwai wrote: this just in
Jarman counters assassins by out assassining them in lane.
still needs to be tested more but I feel really really good with 21/9/0, Flat AD Quints, boots + 2 dblades + brutalizer opening vs. like Akali and shit. In this new sustain vs. assassins meta shit, jarvan can't build sustain and succeed in lane, so just build towards his stupid early game scaling and full combo bitches. Just had back to back DESTRUCTIONS on Gizbro with this shit, it feels like real soloQ superstar build.
This is new?
Jarvan still rapes LeBlanc mid even after all the nerfs, as he does to akali.
On October 11 2011 08:02 Mogwai wrote: this just in
Jarman counters assassins by out assassining them in lane.
still needs to be tested more but I feel really really good with 21/9/0, Flat AD Quints, boots + 2 dblades + brutalizer opening vs. like Akali and shit. In this new sustain vs. assassins meta shit, jarvan can't build sustain and succeed in lane, so just build towards his stupid early game scaling and full combo bitches. Just had back to back DESTRUCTIONS on Gizbro with this shit, it feels like real soloQ superstar build.
This is new?
Jarvan still rapes LeBlanc mid even after all the nerfs, as he does to akali.
Besides, garen es #1 counter
it's not new so much as I forgot about the strengths of DPS Jarman after all the time I spent doing tanky Jarman. with the changes in picks over the last month or so, I think opening DPS Jarman is considerably better than opening Tank Jarman in most cases.
I've been using completely malleable builds. Sometimes I just pretend like I'm a jungler who gets to farm top lane and get wriggles + double gold/10 -> triforce -> tanky shit, other times I pretend I'm talon and go double dblade -> brutalizer. I dunno, top lane nowadays feels like the lane is always won by out-itemizing your opponent by being flexible to the situation.
top lane is won by junglers in 95% of games, easiest lane to gank by far but also hardest to kill by nature of top laners.
I played a few games of j4 on my smurf @ 1500s and he seems to be not too bad top again, I raped this renek but he wasnt that good so not sure. Just did cloth armor + 5 pots then wriggles ---> d blade stack ---> atma's ---> banshee
On October 14 2011 06:47 Brees wrote: top lane is won by junglers in 95% of games, easiest lane to gank by far but also hardest to kill by nature of top laners.
I played a few games of j4 on my smurf @ 1500s and he seems to be not too bad top again, I raped this renek but he wasnt that good so not sure. Just did cloth armor + 5 pots then wriggles ---> d blade stack ---> atma's ---> banshee
Protip: when ganking someone that only has stealth for an escape tool (usually talon/akali top), buy a vision ward. Drop it when they stealth, and it's usually an easy kill, well worth the 125 gold. If not, you still get detection there for 3 minutes, so it's not a complete waste.
I do jungle jarvan at a 1350 level, so I don't really compare well to you gold players QQ I go shirt+5pot -> lantern -> warmogs/sunfire depending on their comp->atmas->FoN->Triforce, Mallet or Stark's (based on number of AD players on my team). I can get away w/ regrowth+1pot-> philo opening, though it does slow down jungling and reduce damage/survivability in exchange for more farm and fewer mana problems.
The last item in the build is subject to change, if lots of AP, it's a banshee's, if lots of AD, it's a randuins/frozen heart.
I don't like building banshee over FoN imo, but that's just me
Btw, Jarvan does shit damage lategame anyways (it was and is his absurd base stats that make him strong early game), so I prefer to build tank over damage since it further increases his utility.
well like, Brees is an absurdly good player and was doing exactly that this past weekend at go4lol when I had to lane vs. an Akali. still useful tip for people, but it's just funny being like, "quote brees, protip: bla bla bla, btw I'm 1350."
Wit's end instead of FoN, viable or bad? I mean, it has no synergy with jarvan or anything, but it's just straight up "more deeps" and still gives a sizeable amount of MR anyways.
Just seems like it's weird not having wit's end brought up not even to say "this item sucks, don't get"; I know I'd at least think about it, l0l.
I`ve seen some games where you'd simply profit more from being able to kill people faster than having more MR and HP regen, and movespeed is kind of eh these days because DPSes builds 50000 phantom dancer which means they'll be faster than you even with FoN.
I've been abandoning dblades in favor of wriggle's, as I like having that lifesteal when I'm trucking people all game and wriggle's just feels like a more intelligent use of item slots when I'm buying a bunch of midgame items rather than saving up for something huge. Sometimes I get philo top too and sometimes I add a hog in addition to a philo if I'm planning on just sitting on wriggle's + phage + brutalizer + hog + philo + mercs until I can complete a triforce and ghostblade. After the trifecta of early damage items (wriggle's + brutalizer + phage), I rush my Black Cleaver, Triforce, Aegis or Warmog's, depending on my team's needs. Late items are all situational, but I like GA and QSS when I go for blatantly offensive builds like Cleaver, Triforce, Ghostblade, Wriggle's, Mercs, whereas other times I'll just transition into Atmog's for lategame survivability.
On October 19 2011 04:21 -Zoda- wrote: I was wondering, is the Jarmeleon stuff fun and playable ?
it's pretty troll, but isn't completely terrible. Rageblade is really stupid, Reverie is... meh, and boots of mobility are pretty stupid, but they all work to some extent and hexdrinker, wriggle's and sunfire are all reasonably good on him.
This is a more reasonable Jarizard build that synergizes better with Jarman's kit:
On September 22 2011 00:36 Mogwai wrote: oh so on a lighter note, this past weekend, I build a ninja tabi sunfire wriggle's hexdrinker atma's stark's jarizard. It still worked because all the items are fire colored.
starks is super niche. You need at least 3 auto-attackers for it to be worthwhile on your team IMO, but if you have the comp for it it can be pretty strong. Hmm, contemplating starks rush on support Jarman...
On October 31 2011 19:05 bosiddon wrote: does jarvan flag break shaco boxes
I don't think it does anymore. Used to, but I think it doesn't since the shaco bug fixes. Will test sometime soon.
My new favorite Jarman build is Brutalizer + Wriggle's + Hexdrinker + Phage + Aegis + Merc Treads. Giant clusterfuck of midgame items OP IMO. Especially since theirs still room for 4000 more gold to upgrade to ghostblade and trinity.
That clusterfuck is actually pretty fucking scary. It doesnt seem like much, but a little bit of ad everywhere and useful stats on every item makes it so you hit like a truck and never die.
Ive seen a riven 1v5 an enemy team at 20 minutes with those items.
I mean, 25 + 23 + 35 + 18 + 8 = 109 AD. That's a lot, and everything other than Brutalizer gives you survivability too, so you're just like, a perfect storm of balanced stats @ < 10K gold, which lets you give up farm to your Kog a lot sooner than something like Force of Atmog's which will take 10K just to finish 3 items with boots.
On November 01 2011 02:09 Mogwai wrote: I mean, 25 + 23 + 35 + 18 + 8 = 109 AD. That's a lot, and everything other than Brutalizer gives you survivability too, so you're just like, a perfect storm of balanced stats @ < 10K gold, which lets you give up farm to your Kog a lot sooner than something like Force of Atmog's which will take 10K just to finish 3 items with boots.
So would you use that build for both support Jarman *and* solo Jarman? Jungle Jarman? i.e. I can't tell if troll. :3
On November 01 2011 02:09 Mogwai wrote: I mean, 25 + 23 + 35 + 18 + 8 = 109 AD. That's a lot, and everything other than Brutalizer gives you survivability too, so you're just like, a perfect storm of balanced stats @ < 10K gold, which lets you give up farm to your Kog a lot sooner than something like Force of Atmog's which will take 10K just to finish 3 items with boots.
So would you use that build for both support Jarman *and* solo Jarman? Jungle Jarman? i.e. I can't tell if troll. :3
it's good on solo and out of the jungle. support jarman uhh, I guess it would work? I like philo + wriggle's -> aegis on support jarman, you usually don't get much further than than, but if you do, it's usually a specialized defensive item vs. whatever type of damage they're mostly dishing out.
On November 12 2011 20:47 bosiddon wrote:
the real jarizard
you have 2.5 items that aren't fire colored (triforce is pushing it). you clearly don't get the game.
How do you start with 21/9/0 in the jungle? What item(s), route and so? I seem to get so insanely low with all but cloth+5 if I go 21/9/0, and it feels overly risky.
On December 10 2011 21:42 Fayfay wrote: How do you start with 21/9/0 in the jungle? What item(s), route and so? I seem to get so insanely low with all but cloth+5 if I go 21/9/0, and it feels overly risky.
I just did jungle jarvan for the first time with my rammus masteries. I had a really nice pull at wolves and blue though. cloth+5 hp pot. Even went mid to gank. I used my jungle udyr runes as reds, armor yellow and blue, hp quints. Since his E gives attack speed and armor I'm thinking AD runes would be better. He's a powerful fucking jungler, especially after you get wriggles.
Jarvan is one of my favorite junglers, if not my favorite. In the new jungle I always start boots+3, just like nunu. I have a 100% win rate with jungle jarvan at ~1900 ELO. I use my nocturne/shaco/trundle runes which is +9.6 dmg, 10 arp, 5.7% aspd and 13 armor. If I'm against a more tanky team comp I use my skarner runes, 14%aspd and 12arp. Almost always go 21/9/0.
I find cloth+5 i entirely unnecessary for almost all of the junglers now, so boots makes Jarvan's early ganks fucking ridiculous. I have yet to play a game as Jungle Jarvan where I don't get fb for my team.
If i was to make a really specific Jarvan page it would be ad quints, 12 armor pen from reds, rest of red slots as armor runes, armor yellows and flat mr blues.
I go wriggles into aegis 95% of the time. Then trinity atmas. Aegis so sooooooo good and makes you really fucking tanky.
How do you guys deal with the constant running out of mana on J4? I have a really hard time ganking without blue buff. Am I running 21/0/9 for the mana regen and buff duration? I think I might have just mis-masteried it.
On December 21 2011 10:31 Sponkz wrote: Nice choice of items in the jungling section. It works really fantastic. You don't feel like sometimes you lack abit of mres though?
If I do, I'll get banshee's or FoN in place of Randuins (which is talked about in the guide), but I usually feel ok with just mercs + aegis tbh.
Do you take the second blue? On pretty much every other jungler I can afford to give it up, but I run oom on Jarvan instantly without it. How top-level Jarvan's manage their mana always intrigued me.
EDIT: I don't run armor quints so I ran 21/9/0, and that's a big reason why, but I'm not sure 21/0/9 with AD quints work. If I'm not high enough health to gank I just feel I waste his strong early game gank potential.
On January 06 2012 04:11 Sandster wrote: Do you take the second blue? On pretty much every other jungler I can afford to give it up, but I run oom on Jarvan instantly without it. How top-level Jarvan's manage their mana always intrigued me.
EDIT: I don't run armor quints so I ran 21/9/0, and that's a big reason why, but I'm not sure 21/0/9 with AD quints work. If I'm not high enough health to gank I just feel I waste his strong early game gank potential.
21/0/9 with AD quints works, I do it pretty much every game now. get blue, look for early gank to let your regrowth put in work, then back to jungle. If you're still trying to do full clear -> gank nowadays, you're doing it wrong IMO.
just minor nitpick here. if you're running jarvan leona you probably want 21 offense on the jarvan especially since leona's bonus sunlight damage counts as your damage and is thus boosted by executioner
i get ghostblade on almost every ad i play because it seems so super slot efficient, but this is one of the only guides i see that says ghost blade over LW. how is jarvan any different to other ads?
Jarman's Q does % Armor Reduction, which scales harder with Flat Armor Pen than % Penetration does. I suppose there are times where Last Whisper would make sense on Jarman, but they are few and far between because he 1. typically dives carries more than trying to kill tanks 2. gets more from flat pen due to Q's reduction
On January 09 2012 14:40 nyxnyxnyx wrote: just minor nitpick here. if you're running jarvan leona you probably want 21 offense on the jarvan especially since leona's bonus sunlight damage counts as your damage and is thus boosted by executioner
I guess 21/9 seems better for the kill lane. It has been my natural tendency to pick up 21 in defense for the bonus gold per kill/assist (doesn't seem much, but helps snowballing) and the tenacity for late game tanking, as well as the ability to tolerate more harass/creep damage. Still will give the 21/9 a run for the money though.
On March 03 2011 08:29 phyvo wrote: Not to seem like an ignorant person, but being ignorant I'm not sure why Jarman is so funny. Why is Jarman so funny?
one might as well ask why the sky is blue. I daresay Jarman is so funny though because he takes himself so seriously and is surrounded by goofy assholes like Teemo and Mundo.
Mundo goes where he pleases! How's he goof- hahahaha, couldn't keep that up with a straight face.
On January 09 2012 14:40 nyxnyxnyx wrote: just minor nitpick here. if you're running jarvan leona you probably want 21 offense on the jarvan especially since leona's bonus sunlight damage counts as your damage and is thus boosted by executioner
I guess 21/9 seems better for the kill lane. It has been my natural tendency to pick up 21 in defense for the bonus gold per kill/assist (doesn't seem much, but helps snowballing) and the tenacity for late game tanking, as well as the ability to tolerate more harass/creep damage. Still will give the 21/9 a run for the money though.
The bonus gold talents are horrible. Please never get them.
W has neither the size, nor the mana sustainability to try to compete with GP, and even if it could, you'd be so fucking worthless in teamfights with a maxed W midgame. play passively on the first push, then when the wave equalizes and you have your EQ combo, at which point you start burst trading with him on every CD because you'll both crush him in terms of Sustain and if he wants to just stand and fight (this is GP we're talking about, not Pantheon, he's not scary enough to boss cloth jarman around with a dblade once you have EQ).
what do ppl think of jarvan's late game if equally farmed vs a nocturne. nocturne has devastating fear and spell shield.
i find that jarvan is lacking. his shield is mediocre as it doesn't scale, his E is subpar attack speed bonus for a melee champ, uses too much mana in general and Q may look good, but is terrible. i find that riven is much stronger.
to me jarvan probably is best as jungler right? he can't snowball and laning is better with yorick. his E Q combo lift up is the only thing he has. yorick is deceptively more tankier and can chase better and tower dive and has a crazy ult.
On January 14 2012 16:51 getpicture wrote: what do ppl think of jarvan's late game if equally farmed vs a nocturne. nocturne has devastating fear and spell shield.
i find that jarvan is lacking. his shield is mediocre as it doesn't scale, his E is subpar attack speed bonus for a melee champ, uses too much mana in general and Q may look good, but is terrible. i find that riven is much stronger.
to me jarvan probably is best as jungler right? he can't snowball and laning is better with yorick. his E Q combo lift up is the only thing he has. yorick is deceptively more tankier and can chase better and tower dive and has a crazy ult.
yeah, i mean, if you compare him to blitzcrank and annie, well annie's early game is much stronger, i mean she has a hard stun while jarman doesnt. And blitz has a knockup as well as a pull and silence, so he just does everything jarman could do but better.
after playing with jarvan many games, i've concluded, he's rubbish. he's so completely situational and doesn't hard counter anyone. players attempting to make use of jarvan need to land their E + Q combo and hit at least 3 targets and requires your teammates to go in simultaneously instantaneously during that split second, basically optimise it. pretty much like landing malphites ult except that malphite's ult is a lot better and provides more utility.
jarvan isn't tanky at all, he's extremely armor rune reliant. so if you don't have armor runes, dont bother playing him.
skarner yorick rumble shyvana etc can't bothered to name them all- they do much more dps. take a look at skarner's ult e.g anti carry always win.
to sum up jarvan vs other fighter melee counterparts, jarvan is -less tanky, shield doesn't scale costs too much mana and worse than spell shield. (noc and sivir have a reason why they need it) -long cooldowns -unable to chase >ridiculously poor chasing power. poor movement speed and no snares W is terrible. -unable to escape messy team fights. no sustain- this is BIG. (can't lifesteal as well with bloodthirsters to carry) worthless passive no matter what you say.
tanky dps is better done with so many other champs. ask yourself this question, have you ever played riven, skarner ,shyvana blitz,nocturne? they are so much stronger.
I think I need a few minutes to process that post in order to post a meaningful response, it is just mind bogging to me how you came to that conclusion.
So to getapicture, I am curious. I do not understand a few things in your post.
1. You are comparing a normal ability to an ultimate, further more Malphite ultimate offers nothing but damage and longer knock up time, where is the extra utility you are talking about? In fact Jarvan's EQ provides more utility due to the armor pen as well as the armor and attackspeed buff.
2. Jarvan passive is essentially half a nuke. Against a say 2.2k hp squishy late game with 100 armor. It is hitting for 110, this is without factor in his Q's armor reduction as well as masteries/runes and the possibility the squishy will get extra armor which is not "that" likely because MR is more important most of the time. Compare it to say Poppy's passive it is worthless, but in generally his passive is quite strong.
3. Jarvan has a multitude of CC, this is why his damage is bad compared to champions such as Shyvana, if their damage are similar then what the point of playing Shyvana?
4. His shield does not scale, that is correct, what it does provide is the AoE slow, I do not think I need to explain why an AoE slow is powerful. Asking for a snare as you just did is absolutely ridiculous. In combination with his EQ which is one of the longest dash in the entire game as well as the leap on his ultimate, which gives Jarvan exceptional chasing power as well as suited to catching people off guard. Sustain can be achieved with wriggles, his cd is long due to his strong his kit is, mana problem can be masked by careful usage his skills, the new mana mastery is a godsend for him, in the jungle his mana problem is masked by blue buff. This goes away generally at mid game or so. I think this address rest of your points.
I am not a Jarvan expert on any stretch of the imagination, but I have a feeling that you are not playing him to his potential, so word of advice here is to simply play more. I think Mogwai can explain this better because I only have about 50 games with Jarvan so quite a bit here is simply theorycrafting and logic. I hope you will give him another try.
On January 14 2012 20:03 getpicture wrote: after playing with jarvan many games, i've concluded, he's rubbish. he's so completely situational and doesn't hard counter anyone. players attempting to make use of jarvan need to land their E + Q combo and hit at least 3 targets and requires your teammates to go in simultaneously instantaneously during that split second, basically optimise it. pretty much like landing malphites ult except that malphite's ult is a lot better and provides more utility.
Except Jarvan can EQ over and over while Malph blows it once every 2 minutes or so.
jarvan isn't tanky at all, he's extremely armor rune reliant. so if you don't have armor runes, dont bother playing him.
Armor runes are the cheapest runes in the game and the most standard across all champions. I can't fathom why you're wasting time whining about that.
skarner yorick rumble shyvana etc can't bothered to name them all- they do much more dps. take a look at skarner's ult e.g anti carry always win.
Skarner is permaban. Jarvan's purpose isn't to do damage, but rather to tank, initiate, and disrupt the enemy team.
-less tanky, shield doesn't scale costs too much mana and worse than spell shield. (noc and sivir have a reason why they need it)
You're using his shield wrong if all you're trying to do is prevent a little damage. His mana costs are a bit high, yes.
-long cooldowns
Medium cooldowns, but very powerful if used well.
-unable to chase >ridiculously poor chasing power. poor movement speed and no snares W is terrible.
You can't get more wrong than this statement. Jarvan can close distance faster than almost any champ in the game with EQR and Flash. His ult is so powerful that you can blow everything to close the gap to catch a carry and essentially win the game.
-unable to escape messy team fights.
Yeah, it's not like he can press E and Q (even works while Amumu ulted) and can go over terrain... He has fantastic escaping ability in the situations where he actually needs to run.
no sustain- this is BIG. (can't lifesteal as well with bloodthirsters to carry)
It's not that big. You just get wriggles for sustain if you need it just like every other champ that doesn't have sustain.
worthless passive no matter what you say.
Wrong.
tanky dps is better done with so many other champs. ask yourself this question, have you ever played riven, skarner ,shyvana blitz,nocturne? they are so much stronger.
Blitz is an irrelevant comparison, nocturne is not a tank, Skarner is permaban, Riven is overpowered (and getting nerfed) and designed for damage. Shyv is the closest allegory to Jarvan, but she brings a different skillset.
All you've done here is whine that you are incapable of correctly playing Jarvan and therefore he's bad. Hate to break it to you, but he's not. He might not be an all-purpose top laner like some champs, but he is a very strong jungler.
1. i never said malphite was any good, lee sin's a lot better. 2. his cooldowns are long. go compare again. 3.there's no need to run from jarvan if he initiates team fight. his W shield slow is worthless because nobody is scared of him, and he only can use it once during team fights due to mana problems and cooldown. what do you do if you see amumu leading the charge? everyone spreads out or lose the game due to his ult. amumu's ult is game ending and heavily punishing. what can jarvan punish and win the game with? his combo? rubbish. none of his moves are game changing or deadly or even give those omfg bbq gotta get out of here jarvan's ult. think gp's ult kennen ult etc insert here ult.
4. jarvan can't solo the other fighter melee classes 1v1. if he can't handle a 1v1 he obviously brings nothing to teamfights. 5 strong duelists bring more to the table. some people think that these types of champs perform better in team fights like katarina. jarvan isn't even like katarina. 5.his Q's armor reduction is worthless. it is equivalent to doing 10-13% more damage over that duration against squishies. anyone can kill squishies . see here : http://i.imgur.com/fCaHI.jpg
6. his passive is similar to ashe's passive except ashe's passive does a lot of damage late game. 7. W is useless shield. a simple crit or ranged poke removes this shield. costs so much mana. im using morgana shield spell immune gg. i'd use morgana to shield my allies. 8. jarvan's ult get can himself killed. aoe skillshots rape him, brand and malz nullzone.only ranged ally champs can attack his target. 9. melee champs are short shafted. in any game its always better to have more ranged than melee. melee champs have to provide insane utility to be used e.g alistar lee sin noc. massive CC nukes.
On January 15 2012 10:58 getpicture wrote: 1. i never said malphite was any good, lee sin's a lot better. 2. his cooldowns are long. go compare again. 3.there's no need to run from jarvan if he initiates team fight. his W shield slow is worthless because nobody is scared of him, and he only can use it once during team fights due to mana problems and cooldown. what do you do if you see amumu leading the charge? everyone spreads out or lose the game due to his ult. amumu's ult is game ending and heavily punishing. what can jarvan punish and win the game with? his combo? rubbish. none of his moves are game changing or deadly or even give those omfg bbq gotta get out of here jarvan's ult. think gp's ult kennen ult etc insert here ult.
4. jarvan can't solo the other fighter melee classes 1v1. if he can't handle a 1v1 he obviously brings nothing to teamfights. 5 strong duelists bring more to the table. some people think that these types of champs perform better in team fights like katarina. jarvan isn't even like katarina. 5.his Q's armor reduction is worthless. it is equivalent to doing 10-13% more damage over that duration against squishies. anyone can kill squishies . see here : http://i.imgur.com/fCaHI.jpg
6. his passive is similar to ashe's passive except ashe's passive does a lot of damage late game. 7. W is useless shield. a simple crit or ranged poke removes this shield. costs so much mana. im using morgana shield spell immune gg. i'd use morgana to shield my allies. 8. jarvan's ult get can himself killed. aoe skillshots rape him, brand and malz nullzone.only ranged ally champs can attack his target. 9. melee champs are short shafted. in any game its always better to have more ranged than melee. melee champs have to provide insane utility to be used e.g alistar lee sin noc. massive CC nukes.
Okay, you're wrong. Like, straight up, every single point here is wrong except #2.
I respect your opinion but I still cannot see your logic. I do not have the energy to type up a large post again and refute your points so I am going to wait for others to post.
jarvan is gimmicky, and relies on enemy team to play bad. jarvan is rarely played. people only play him only because everyone else OP is banned. jarvan doesn't punish indecision/poor moves from enemy. he doesn't have to skills to make enemy teams fall apart. he is never banned and never will be because every single move is predictable and cannot achieve above average returns. the fact is you're not a tournament player says so. using your ego on TL isn't gonna to do anything.
pick your 5 champs out of the many, no one is afraid of the omfg jarvan.
You say jungle, but his best lane is as AD support. People laugh when you pick him as support, but turn silent when you singlehandledly can bully short range carries like vayne from lane (even with a sustain support). Amazing burst knockup every tenth second, giving huge armor pen and your passive properties to your AD. The slow shield after knockup helps a lot if you engaged alone and his E armor scaling is pretty cool, you'll have something like 80 armor at level 3-4. Could be compared with something like Leona support, but in my opinion he is a lot more helpful to the team.
Also isn't so dependent upon level and items (which is why he's an excellent support), if you coordinate well you can knockup all their team twice (meaning 26% armor pen through whole fight) in a teamfight and place your ult disruptive. Unless lane went well, you can't be the initiate tank, but he's still amazing in teamfights.
@getpicture: I'm going to be very lenient here but don't push the envelope. It's fine that you have the opinion that Jarvan sucks ass but you're doing nothing to convince the rest of us.
I don't see how Jarvan is gimmicky but a champion like Riven isn't. A lot of champions capitalize on the enemy team playing bad. If people play Jarvan cause other OP champs are banned, doesn't that actually mean he's not bad cause he's a "tier' under OP champs? He doesn't have skills to make enemy teams fall apart? This statement just boggles my mine. EQ is an AOE knock up that isn't an ultimate. Unlike Alistar, if you fail your combo, you don't push an enemy away into safety. W is an AOE slow. R is a fucking terrain block. How does Jarvan not disrupt? If you play LoL everyday (I play almost everyday, I assume most people in this subforum do too), what champion isn't predictable? Lastly, afaik, you aren't a tournament player either, so try not to use that as grounds to debase another user.
@Craton: We usually butt heads but I'd +1 you there if I could.
On January 15 2012 16:02 NeoIllusions wrote: @getpicture: I'm going to be very lenient here but don't push the envelope. It's fine that you have the opinion that Jarvan sucks ass but you're doing nothing to convince the rest of us.
I don't see how Jarvan is gimmicky but a champion like Riven isn't. A lot of champions capitalize on the enemy team playing bad. If people play Jarvan cause other OP champs are banned, doesn't that actually mean he's not bad cause he's a "tier' under OP champs? He doesn't have skills to make enemy teams fall apart? This statement just boggles my mine. EQ is an AOE knock up that isn't an ultimate. Unlike Alistar, if you fail your combo, you don't push an enemy away into safety. W is an AOE slow. R is a fucking terrain block. How does Jarvan not disrupt? If you play LoL everyday (I play almost everyday, I assume most people in this subforum do too), what champion isn't predictable? Lastly, afaik, you aren't a tournament player either, so try not to use that as grounds to debase another user.
@Craton: We usually butt heads but I'd +1 you there if I could.
I don't really care either way, but riven doesn't have any dependent skill interaction like jarvan?
On January 15 2012 10:58 getpicture wrote: 1. i never said malphite was any good, lee sin's a lot better. 2. his cooldowns are long. go compare again. 3.there's no need to run from jarvan if he initiates team fight. his W shield slow is worthless because nobody is scared of him, and he only can use it once during team fights due to mana problems and cooldown. what do you do if you see amumu leading the charge? everyone spreads out or lose the game due to his ult. amumu's ult is game ending and heavily punishing. what can jarvan punish and win the game with? his combo? rubbish. none of his moves are game changing or deadly or even give those omfg bbq gotta get out of here jarvan's ult. think gp's ult kennen ult etc insert here ult.
4. jarvan can't solo the other fighter melee classes 1v1. if he can't handle a 1v1 he obviously brings nothing to teamfights. 5 strong duelists bring more to the table. some people think that these types of champs perform better in team fights like katarina. jarvan isn't even like katarina. 5.his Q's armor reduction is worthless. it is equivalent to doing 10-13% more damage over that duration against squishies. anyone can kill squishies . see here : http://i.imgur.com/fCaHI.jpg
6. his passive is similar to ashe's passive except ashe's passive does a lot of damage late game. 7. W is useless shield. a simple crit or ranged poke removes this shield. costs so much mana. im using morgana shield spell immune gg. i'd use morgana to shield my allies. 8. jarvan's ult get can himself killed. aoe skillshots rape him, brand and malz nullzone.only ranged ally champs can attack his target. 9. melee champs are short shafted. in any game its always better to have more ranged than melee. melee champs have to provide insane utility to be used e.g alistar lee sin noc. massive CC nukes.
I didnt know that fearing a champion makes their slows more effective.
Noc had 1 cc, fear, and hes a jungler. Lee sins a jungler. Alistar is a support. Your argument is terrible.
"jarvans ult can get himself killed". Yeah. so can fiddlesticks, nocs, malphites, morganas, etc. point is, your stupid if you want an ultimate that makes you invulnerable for the duration.
His passive is nothing like ashes. Ashe gives her crit chance over time. Jarvan does percentage health damage every x seconds.
Jarvans a disrupter, not a duelist. You want someone who can 1v1? Go play riven udyr and gp then.
On January 15 2012 12:51 getpicture wrote: jarvan is gimmicky, and relies on enemy team to play bad. jarvan is rarely played. people only play him only because everyone else OP is banned. jarvan doesn't punish indecision/poor moves from enemy. he doesn't have to skills to make enemy teams fall apart. he is never banned and never will be because every single move is predictable and cannot achieve above average returns. the fact is you're not a tournament player says so. using your ego on TL isn't gonna to do anything.
pick your 5 champs out of the many, no one is afraid of the omfg jarvan.
User was warned for this post
for whatever it's worth, I'm more of a tournament player than anyone else in this conversation and I wrote this fucking guide and routinely dump on people with jarman both out of jangle and top lane. you're entitled to your opinion that there are better choices, but frankly I think that jarman has the best combination of damage output, disruption and team enhancing (via debuffs and buffs) in the game and think you're just a silly goose who's not worth talking to if you're not even going to acknowledge his strengths.
there jarvan got a buff which solves his mana problems a bit. the truth is barely anyone at riot games cares about jarvan because they dont play him. their focus is only tier 1 champs and only balancing it around that. despite kennen and rumble being strong and hard counters to poor play, the only champ to further.nerf is Ahri.
you will see in the coming months ahri will be further nerfed again and again as how xin zhao got repeatedly nerfed because noobs in solo queued complained about ganks.
a lot of the designers at riot games who develop their own champs would prefer their own designed champ to be not touched and balanced by others. this is out of respect because they believe that designers understand their heroes best and their core mechanics. this is obviously wrong. think about the ppl who designed chess/ any other game/sport.plenty of players outplay their creators. just because a person designed it, doesn't mean they understand balance at the highest levels. some new champions are being developed by the new graduates/employees(rotation work) to test their hand at game design- viktor/swain(reused) to give them the experience because they have nothing in their work portfolio.
anyways this is the last jarvan buff we will see. not every champ is designed for competitive/viable play. some are just for laughs/trollage to cause pain for opponents in solo queue. not saying jarvan is troll, but he fulfills a niche.
On January 17 2012 12:53 Mogwai wrote: ehhh, it's pretty minor. I mean, it's appreciated having a larger mana pool, but it's nothing huge.
Oh? Of course with 0 testing I have no idea how this buff would work out, I just did some comparison to the Sion buff.
General: Base mana increased to 200 from 175. Mana per level increased to 40 from 25.
I think this is before the mastery remake, Sion gained 40 mana at level 1 and 255 mana at level 18. Jarvan buff gives him 180 more total mana with 10 mana reduction on his shield and 5 on his flag. After the buff Sion was able to pretty much do whatever he want without caring too much about mana as long as you grab some d-rings pre-mastery change. Now with the new mana mastery with the mana buff, shouldn't Jarvan's mana issue(his glaring weakness) be decreased enough for it to be significant?
This is all theorycraft and I do not claim this to be correct, I am just explaining my thought process.
obviously its nothing huge, if you have no mana go back home to heal. all calculated teamfights begin with full mana. jarvan is exactly this type of clean cut proper engage champ. if jarvan is even forced into a team fight with only half mana full then it sucks. he spends quite a bit farming.
On January 17 2012 12:58 getpicture wrote: there jarvan got a buff which solves his mana problems a bit. the truth is barely anyone at riot games cares about jarvan because they dont play him. their focus is only tier 1 champs and only balancing it around that. despite kennen and rumble being strong and hard counters to poor play, the only champ to further.nerf is Ahri.
you will see in the coming months ahri will be further nerfed again and again as how xin zhao got repeatedly nerfed because noobs in solo queued complained about ganks.
a lot of the designers at riot games who develop their own champs would prefer their own designed champ to be not touched and balanced by others. this is out of respect because they believe that designers understand their heroes best and their core mechanics. this is obviously wrong. think about the ppl who designed chess/ any other game/sport.plenty of players outplay their creators. just because a person designed it, doesn't mean they understand balance at the highest levels. some new champions are being developed by the new graduates/employees(rotation work) to test their hand at game design- viktor/swain(reused) to give them the experience because they have nothing in their work portfolio.
anyways this is the last jarvan buff we will see. not every champ is designed for competitive/viable play. some are just for laughs/trollage to cause pain for opponents in solo queue. not saying jarvan is troll, but he fulfills a niche.
I'm sure you happen to know people at Riot and know exactly how they get things done. I mean, obviously you have great Riot connections with multiple designers, producers and other staff on your FList.
I also totally agree that the Design and Live Balance Team never talk. You're really on the ball here! It's also true that designers don't understand design better than players. It's why coaches are irrelevant because why does Flash need help if he's a good player? You insight is absolutely astounding. Are there any other great ideas or leaks you can pass on?
As an aside, the mana buff helps with laning and lets have the full combo open a lot more which is nice. Not sure how this compares with the old double philo, but I assume that early trading top lane is less harsh since you still have mana to trade more. Dunno about the jungle factor though.
i just disagree that mana was a glaring weakness for jarman. there were times I was sad due to mana issues, but they've tended to be fairly rare and thus, while I'm sure I'll have a lot more gas in the tank to cast spells now, I don't think that was really much of an issue for jarmang.
I agree that the numbers are pretty large and thus pretty significant at addressing mana issues, I just contest that mana issues were a big deal for him.
On January 17 2012 13:44 Mogwai wrote: i just disagree that mana was a glaring weakness for jarman. there were times I was sad due to mana issues, but they've tended to be fairly rare and thus, while I'm sure I'll have a lot more gas in the tank to cast spells now, I don't think that was really much of an issue for jarmang.
I agree that the numbers are pretty large and thus pretty significant at addressing mana issues, I just contest that mana issues were a big deal for him.
Fair enough.
By the way I wish you would record your streams a bit more often, I liked the VODs that you remembered to save.
On January 17 2012 12:58 getpicture wrote: there jarvan got a buff which solves his mana problems a bit. the truth is barely anyone at riot games cares about jarvan because they dont play him. their focus is only tier 1 champs and only balancing it around that. despite kennen and rumble being strong and hard counters to poor play, the only champ to further.nerf is Ahri.
you will see in the coming months ahri will be further nerfed again and again as how xin zhao got repeatedly nerfed because noobs in solo queued complained about ganks.
a lot of the designers at riot games who develop their own champs would prefer their own designed champ to be not touched and balanced by others. this is out of respect because they believe that designers understand their heroes best and their core mechanics. this is obviously wrong. think about the ppl who designed chess/ any other game/sport.plenty of players outplay their creators. just because a person designed it, doesn't mean they understand balance at the highest levels. some new champions are being developed by the new graduates/employees(rotation work) to test their hand at game design- viktor/swain(reused) to give them the experience because they have nothing in their work portfolio. **
anyways this is the last jarvan buff we will see. not every champ is designed for competitive/viable play. some are just for laughs/trollage to cause pain for opponents in solo queue. not saying jarvan is troll, but he fulfills a niche.
**citation needed. where have they ever said any of those things?
On January 17 2012 12:58 getpicture wrote: there jarvan got a buff which solves his mana problems a bit. the truth is barely anyone at riot games cares about jarvan because they dont play him. their focus is only tier 1 champs and only balancing it around that. despite kennen and rumble being strong and hard counters to poor play, the only champ to further.nerf is Ahri.
you will see in the coming months ahri will be further nerfed again and again as how xin zhao got repeatedly nerfed because noobs in solo queued complained about ganks.
a lot of the designers at riot games who develop their own champs would prefer their own designed champ to be not touched and balanced by others. this is out of respect because they believe that designers understand their heroes best and their core mechanics. this is obviously wrong. think about the ppl who designed chess/ any other game/sport.plenty of players outplay their creators. just because a person designed it, doesn't mean they understand balance at the highest levels. some new champions are being developed by the new graduates/employees(rotation work) to test their hand at game design- viktor/swain(reused) to give them the experience because they have nothing in their work portfolio. **
anyways this is the last jarvan buff we will see. not every champ is designed for competitive/viable play. some are just for laughs/trollage to cause pain for opponents in solo queue. not saying jarvan is troll, but he fulfills a niche.
**citation needed. where have they ever said any of those things?
They didn't, trust me on this. I post fairly frequently on the official LoL forum and check the redtracker as well, I have never seen those quotes. If this is true I will eat my hat.
On January 17 2012 13:44 Mogwai wrote: i just disagree that mana was a glaring weakness for jarman. there were times I was sad due to mana issues, but they've tended to be fairly rare and thus, while I'm sure I'll have a lot more gas in the tank to cast spells now, I don't think that was really much of an issue for jarmang.
I agree that the numbers are pretty large and thus pretty significant at addressing mana issues, I just contest that mana issues were a big deal for him.
Fair enough.
By the way I wish you would record your streams a bit more often, I liked the VODs that you remembered to save.
i have a bunch of recordings sitting here waiting for me to post them to own3d, I'm just lazy about it. twitch automatically saves streams though, so that's nice.
On January 17 2012 13:44 Mogwai wrote: i just disagree that mana was a glaring weakness for jarman. there were times I was sad due to mana issues, but they've tended to be fairly rare and thus, while I'm sure I'll have a lot more gas in the tank to cast spells now, I don't think that was really much of an issue for jarmang.
I agree that the numbers are pretty large and thus pretty significant at addressing mana issues, I just contest that mana issues were a big deal for him.
Fair enough.
By the way I wish you would record your streams a bit more often, I liked the VODs that you remembered to save.
i have a bunch of recordings sitting here waiting for me to post them to own3d, I'm just lazy about it. twitch automatically saves streams though, so that's nice.
It's pretty much a free farm lane for both of them. It's really hard to kill cho after level 6, but since jarman can AoE clear almost as well as cho can, cho can't just push him onto his tower and destroy him the way he does to a lot of other champs. Cho probably has the post-6 edge in the lane, but it's pretty marginal and the lane is usually a draw or is decided by the jangler.
So I played a ranked game at ~1450 elo today as Jarvan vs Rumble. Basically started null-magic mantle and bought a ton of HP pots while going HoG -> Philo -> Wriggle/Mercs. Oddly even though he was really strong about 15-20 minutes in I was doing huge damage to him and pretty much won the lane.
I thought Rumble was a better top lane than Jarvan - was this guy just really bad? Also, is 2 gp5s a good idea, or would it be wiser to just go into Warmogs or something?
On January 31 2012 11:24 Jaso wrote: So I played a ranked game at ~1450 elo today as Jarvan vs Rumble. Basically started null-magic mantle and bought a ton of HP pots while going HoG -> Philo -> Wriggle/Mercs. Oddly even though he was really strong about 15-20 minutes in I was doing huge damage to him and pretty much won the lane.
I thought Rumble was a better top lane than Jarvan - was this guy just really bad? Also, is 2 gp5s a good idea, or would it be wiser to just go into Warmogs or something?
Don't quote me on this but I think double gold/5 is not standard on Jarvan anymore unless you are forced to play passive because you lost the lane. IMO is probably better to just get some MR/lifesteal(wriggles), one gold/5, then brut.
On January 31 2012 00:02 Mogwai wrote: It's pretty much a free farm lane for both of them. It's really hard to kill cho after level 6, but since jarman can AoE clear almost as well as cho can, cho can't just push him onto his tower and destroy him the way he does to a lot of other champs. Cho probably has the post-6 edge in the lane, but it's pretty marginal and the lane is usually a draw or is decided by the jangler.
It depends what kind of runes Cho's running. If he has one of those 25 armor pages you're not gonna kill him, but if he's running anything but that after 6 you crush him. Of course, we're assuming you know you're up against Jarmander, so you're gonna see a 25+ armor page 99% of the time.
On January 31 2012 00:02 Mogwai wrote: It's pretty much a free farm lane for both of them. It's really hard to kill cho after level 6, but since jarman can AoE clear almost as well as cho can, cho can't just push him onto his tower and destroy him the way he does to a lot of other champs. Cho probably has the post-6 edge in the lane, but it's pretty marginal and the lane is usually a draw or is decided by the jangler.
Yeah, that was pretty much it. I out CS'd him but I just felt uaseless because I couldn't harras. That and armor pages make me sad.
who does jarvan lose to in lane? im seriously hard pressed to find an answer because even if you cant just fucking kill them, you just cs because your spells are retardly good at that too.
On February 04 2012 18:51 Owned Noob wrote: who does jarvan lose to in lane? im seriously hard pressed to find an answer because even if you cant just fucking kill them, you just cs because your spells are retardly good at that too.
got rolled pretty hard by a vlad last week. I killed him pretty effortlessly early but he could survive after getting a revolver and once he got some levels and a wota (pre-nerf wota) he just ate me alive.
On February 05 2012 05:02 UniversalSnip wrote: got rolled pretty hard by a vlad last week. I killed him pretty effortlessly early but he could survive after getting a revolver and once he got some levels and a wota (pre-nerf wota) he just ate me alive.
you gotta keep bodying vlad and stay up on levels and stuff. if you can't 1 combo him past level 7, your'e screwed.
On February 04 2012 18:51 Owned Noob wrote: who does jarvan lose to in lane? im seriously hard pressed to find an answer because even if you cant just fucking kill them, you just cs because your spells are retardly good at that too.
Pantheon, Yorrick, Rumble, Riven
How does he do vs teemo? I've recently played against one but he was pretty bad, rushed wit's with only def. being 1 doran blade so i won the lane really hard but i wonder how does jarman lane vs decent teemos
On February 04 2012 18:51 Owned Noob wrote: who does jarvan lose to in lane? im seriously hard pressed to find an answer because even if you cant just fucking kill them, you just cs because your spells are retardly good at that too.
Pantheon, Yorrick, Rumble, Riven
How does he do vs teemo? I've recently played against one but he was pretty bad, rushed wit's with only def. being 1 doran blade so i won the lane really hard but i wonder how does jarman lane vs decent teemos
Also how about vs nidalee?
uhh, teemo's beatable, but you have to play the early levels correct. he can't be way ahead of you on his wriggles or you're fucked. don't build wit's btw, it's wriggle's -> brutalizer to beat him, it's all about casting spells on him and having those burst like a motherfucker while you're blinded.
nidalee is unwinnable if she doesn't let you kill/hard-zone her pre-wriggle's. if you can manage to kill her though, you can stay ahead and beat her.
I tried him top and in the jungle, using Smash's build. Got a bit slow, but that's because I fell behind so I didn't have Wriggles by the time EQ wouldn't drop the creeps. I've had problems landing the combo to initiate ganks, too. If I can't do it from the brush I'll have to lead them while accounting for the delay of Q too, I'm used to skillshots (no problem ganking with Olaf) but I'm not used to that yet. I really felt I was useless tho. Granted, I didn't manage to gank a lot while our mid and theirs (they had Talon) got 4-5 kills off each other, so I couldn't tank that much, and I did almost no damage. Btw, doesn't it show the Flash particle even if the champ's stealthed? I ult'd Talon once, he ulted right after to I figured I'd keep my barrier up to wait out his stealth, turns out he got out without using his jump nor any visible Flash particle, so I felt puzzled.
In lane... I didn't get to do that much either, but when you're laning against Galio and you get camped, then suddenly a fed Talon with 5 kills comes to attack you from bot without a warning, you feel kinda dumb with your MR. I don't know, I don't feel like I contribute much, and after using E, Q and possibly my ultimate I don't feel like there's much I can do. But that's perhaps I'm always camped/ganked or I fail my own ganks when I jungle him, I don't have the items to fulfill his role correctly.
On March 01 2012 09:37 Alaric wrote: I tried him top and in the jungle, using Smash's build. Got a bit slow, but that's because I fell behind so I didn't have Wriggles by the time EQ wouldn't drop the creeps. I've had problems landing the combo to initiate ganks, too. If I can't do it from the brush I'll have to lead them while accounting for the delay of Q too, I'm used to skillshots (no problem ganking with Olaf) but I'm not used to that yet. I really felt I was useless tho. Granted, I didn't manage to gank a lot while our mid and theirs (they had Talon) got 4-5 kills off each other, so I couldn't tank that much, and I did almost no damage. Btw, doesn't it show the Flash particle even if the champ's stealthed? I ult'd Talon once, he ulted right after to I figured I'd keep my barrier up to wait out his stealth, turns out he got out without using his jump nor any visible Flash particle, so I felt puzzled.
In lane... I didn't get to do that much either, but when you're laning against Galio and you get camped, then suddenly a fed Talon with 5 kills comes to attack you from bot without a warning, you feel kinda dumb with your MR. I don't know, I don't feel like I contribute much, and after using E, Q and possibly my ultimate I don't feel like there's much I can do. But that's perhaps I'm always camped/ganked or I fail my own ganks when I jungle him, I don't have the items to fulfill his role correctly.
With equal farm, jarvan can't carry a team. What he does do, have very long range initiation, and soft cc with his ult which lets your team pump damage into anything trapped in it. EQ flash ult travels almost 1900 range, and with his ult being 3.5 seconds (galio and amumu ults were nerfed down to 2 second duration for a reason) what you get is a long time of teabagging someone who either is forced to use flash or have an epic battle. They also finally fixed his ult not too long ago so it doesn't disappear the second he dies.
I find dunking onto the AP is the most common, lots of AD's have an escape, with a few exceptions (mf ashe), while the gross majority of AP's don't. Jarvans kit is designed to either phases or initiate. His phasing is actually the opposite of how most phasing works. Normally you stand in front, and anything behind you is the phased off area, because to get through you they have to take damage, or cc etc. Jarvan's ult phases off everything outside of it, which is always a fixed area, instead of depending on where jarvan is.
Yeah, I thought about ulting their assassin/bruiser so that he doesn't get to dive my carry (or keep the ult until the clean-up phase to drop someone without having to chase) but I generally wasn't tanky enough (to make me their main target, or even to survive until the clean-up phase) and those had usually escapes anyway (Akali's R, Talon's jump) so I ult'd maybe 3-4 times a game. I'd rather not do it than do a bad one.
So what do think about getting a Frozen Mallet over the Tri-force? It complements my Atma's better and I feel a lot more useful a stopping those pesky carries from getting away.
On March 10 2012 11:49 Mogwai wrote: I get it out of the jungle sometimes and I rarely play J4 top anymore, sooooo I guess it's fine?
What is the problem with J4 top? Too many bad matchups? He is one of my favorite champs to play but I hate jungling so I would love to make him work top. At my elo it probably doesn't matter, but I am curious anyway.
yea, at higher elo you just get bodied in so many of the standard matchups in top lane. I dunno, I've tried a lot of shit to make it work and it still seems like it mostly just works if you get a jungle who knows how to camp or you're vs. an inferior opponent.
I recall Smash used to favor a mid-tier item build for Jarvan where he would build strong mid tier items. Aka wriggles/phage/aegis/hexdrinker/boots/Atmas/Brut/hog(? Not that sure on this one) in no particular order. Phage can be upgraded to either triforce or mallet depending on the situation and brut can be upgraded to ghostblade but hexdrinker has no build path. With the new patch hexdrinker can now be build into MoM which is a decent late game tanky dps item. I wonder if the new item would be a stable on a more dps Jarvan builds if the patch hits. Of course it has to be compared against brut into ghostblade or would they have their uses depending on the situation?
I'm not yet familiar with the new item, so I can't really comment except that I rarely build hexdrinker out of the jungle and think that jungling is J4's only really viable place on a team at the moment, and as such, I doubt it will be useful on him.
On March 20 2012 05:00 Mogwai wrote: I'm not yet familiar with the new item, so I can't really comment except that I rarely build hexdrinker out of the jungle and think that jungling is J4's only really viable place on a team at the moment, and as such, I doubt it will be useful on him.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe a fairly standard jungle Jarvan build right now is wriggles -> hog -> phage/aegis -> the other item -> mallet -> Atmas. I don't think Hexdrinker would be a good item out of the jungle as well unless the enemy team has really strong magic team comp, but after you have wriggles/mallet/atmas and you want bit more dps. Would going hexdrinker -> MoM be a decent alternative or would brut into GB remain superior?
Of course this is all pure theorycrafting because the patch has not hit yet, is just for the funzies until Tuesday.
That and I felt like posting something constructive.
boots + 3 hp. If I need super sustain asap, philo stone. If not, wriggles. Then i work my way to giants belt, finish boots, frozen mallet, atma, wits end. Then I like to use a black cleaver. I then sell wriggles for something else if it gets that far.
On March 20 2012 05:00 Mogwai wrote: I'm not yet familiar with the new item, so I can't really comment except that I rarely build hexdrinker out of the jungle and think that jungling is J4's only really viable place on a team at the moment, and as such, I doubt it will be useful on him.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe a fairly standard jungle Jarvan build right now is wriggles -> hog -> phage/aegis -> the other item -> mallet -> Atmas. I don't think Hexdrinker would be a good item out of the jungle as well unless the enemy team has really strong magic team comp, but after you have wriggles/mallet/atmas and you want bit more dps. Would going hexdrinker -> MoM be a decent alternative or would brut into GB remain superior?
Of course this is all pure theorycrafting because the patch has not hit yet, is just for the funzies until Tuesday.
That and I felt like posting something constructive.
My standard is regrowth -> philo + hog + boots -> wriggle's -> aegis + phage -> atma's + mallet -> omen
You don't really need more DPS than this. More is typically excessive, especially since you really can't fund more than that out of the jungle.
On March 20 2012 05:17 Morphx2 wrote: Top lane I have been doing VERY GOOD
boots + 3 hp. If I need super sustain asap, philo stone. If not, wriggles. Then i work my way to giants belt, finish boots, frozen mallet, atma, wits end. Then I like to use a black cleaver. I then sell wriggles for something else if it gets that far.
Works out VERY well!!
philo doesn't really give you a lot of sustain. it won't do much of anything vs. high sustain champs like irelia/ww/udyr/yorick. also, if you're rushing mallet, you should usually be getting your phage first. also wit's has pretty bad synergy with J4's kit. It can work, but I've found that Hexdrinker is a better item than Wit's on J4 generally speaking.
On March 20 2012 05:26 RaiD.RaynoR wrote: Even after reading this guide I can't decide, top or jungle? somebody help!
Depends on your level. If you're playing like, sub 1500, I'd say top is more fun, but once you get a little higher up, his jungle is much more effective than his top lane except for a few choice matchups.
smash have you tried any Jarvan leona bot lane? My friend and I have been messing around with it lately and I was wondering if you could give me some tips on how I should build/play in that lane
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=21480 Jarvan guide from Plazmuh, I think the only guy above 2k in EUW who mains jarvan. Some interesting things in the guide, such as saying akali is a hard lane and I thought smash said he counters her.
uhh, I typically have said that Jarman vs. Akali is a snowbally lane in either direction and I'm going to stick to that. I think you can do well with a heavy MRes runepage + 21 offensive spec, but the lane always seems to get decided really quickly one way or the other.
It's a good guide, I agree with most of it, though I run 1 resist quint with 2 regen as opposed to the 3 regen and I build aegis a lot and omen not enough. I disagree with some of the matchups, like, akali is so far from being worse than ww and udyr it's absurd and Irelia's pretty easy with the sustain nerf IMO, but most of the things in there are similar to my build and needless to say I agree with them.
Though I disagree strongly with the E vs. Q leveling stuff in there. Q first, always, unless you're not even going after them with your combo. Q's just better for the combo damage and it's cd goes down.
On June 13 2012 17:47 r.Evo wrote: Smash you still playing Jarman? Almost forgot about him myself, but he's still so much fun. Any new things you'd do different top atm?
I only play him out of the jungle right now really. it might be worth considering him top again soon, but there are still too many matchups that I can never see him winning to really play him a lot.
Q does higher AoE Damage, there isn't a single jungle camp where it's difficult to hit them all with your Q and it does higher damage on a lower CD and reduces their armor for your subsequent auto attacks.
so... support jarvan. is it just ppl don't know wtf to do against me or is it actually legitimate?
seems to play like a leona lane only you actually have poke and have a reliable way to escape ganks. Trade off some of the lockdown for much more utility and better lategame presence. Defensively its better because the combo has much better mobility and is an aoe, instead of leona's reliance on zenith blade to be anywhere and single stun. Offensively leona stuns for longer and does a little more damage.
In lane the full combo does good damage and is easily repeatable, plus you won't take much damage at all due to flag armor and shield. ult is great for commiting or for saving your own carry.
His ult is an amazing peel for your carry, better than anivia wall cause it's not as positioning dependant. really helps stop the other team from diving hard. Flag is a substantial passive buff, spear really helps chuck down the high armor bruisers, and knockups are relatively low CD.
Basically, you can do tons of annoying/helpful things both offensively and defensively, and none of it requires more farm than gp5 items and maybe an aegis.
I really don't know if I'm just talking myself into it or if it actually works well =X
You don't have better utility or lategame presence. You do zero damage and die instantly without items. You can flag pole someone and/or ult someone, then you have to immediately flash away.
Alistar and Leona both have significantly more utility and durability. I doubt the damage numbers vary much. Jarvan heavily relies AD items for damage.
You don't have "poke" either since walking out to Q should get you shot in the face repeatedly.
In short: your success as Jarvan support is almost certainly the result of your enemies misplaying the lane.
Been playing some jarman cow and jarman crank. Pretty hard to itemize against, crank doesn't fall off lategame, and both still kill everyone early game. I'm curious though as to how these combos compare to blitzstar as is.
Ok, just played Jarvan in ranked for the first time because hes awesome. Picked him into an irelia, so not the easiest lane.
I noticed the irelia wasn't being agressive, so from the cloth+pots opening, I went Tabi > Phage > Triforce > HoG > Randuins. I was going to continue on and build a Maw (Karthus and Diana), but the game ended too soon. Went 2/0/3, the two kills from TELEDUNKS on karthus and the three assists in the final teamfight.
Hes really strong, its just a shame is is "countered" by some of the more popular champions right now.
On September 02 2012 06:47 57 Corvette wrote: Ok, just played Jarvan in ranked for the first time because hes awesome. Picked him into an irelia, so not the easiest lane.
I noticed the irelia wasn't being agressive, so from the cloth+pots opening, I went Tabi > Phage > Triforce > HoG > Randuins. I was going to continue on and build a Maw (Karthus and Diana), but the game ended too soon. Went 2/0/3, the two kills from TELEDUNKS on karthus and the three assists in the final teamfight.
Hes really strong, its just a shame is is "countered" by some of the more popular champions right now.
I don't know if that necessarily true, I just don't think he does enough damage for a bruiser until he gets his triforce going. Then again, I have very limited experience with J4
so recently i started playing j4 as jungle season 3. I started off the season by buying lee sin and jungling with him but was having trouble due to the fact that i would lose significant amounts of health after going for red or blue even with smite. I figured out that pots need to be consumed right after wraiths/wolves(red/blue dependent) and 1-2 more should be consumed after blue/red. Jarvan's ganks are amazing at lvl 2 if you can land his E-Q in top lane especially you are guaranteed first blood for you or your top laner(should be top laner because if jungle gets feed what does it matter really you want top lane to snowball). Back to the point ill post a guide soon enough on my J4 jungle but im feeling as if he is pretty viable S3 jungle. :D
On December 10 2012 04:46 DrizzyRNS wrote: so recently i started playing j4 as jungle season 3. I started off the season by buying lee sin and jungling with him but was having trouble due to the fact that i would lose significant amounts of health after going for red or blue even with smite. I figured out that pots need to be consumed right after wraiths/wolves(red/blue dependent) and 1-2 more should be consumed after blue/red. Jarvan's ganks are amazing at lvl 2 if you can land his E-Q in top lane especially you are guaranteed first blood for you or your top laner(should be top laner because if jungle gets feed what does it matter really you want top lane to snowball). Back to the point ill post a guide soon enough on my J4 jungle but im feeling as if he is pretty viable S3 jungle. :D
I've been experimenting a bit, but I really hate the S3 Jungle. Because it's worth even less than the S2 Jungle, if you fall behind, you pretty much faceplant.
On January 12 2013 17:43 HughMyron wrote: Is Jungle Jarvan still playable?
I've been experimenting a bit, but I really hate the S3 Jungle. Because it's worth even less than the S2 Jungle, if you fall behind, you pretty much faceplant.
I doubt it, without items j4 is just gonna die, atleast take him top so he can get the farm he needs
On January 12 2013 17:43 HughMyron wrote: Is Jungle Jarvan still playable?
I've been experimenting a bit, but I really hate the S3 Jungle. Because it's worth even less than the S2 Jungle, if you fall behind, you pretty much faceplant.
I think he was played 3 or 4 times today in the Riot S3 Offline Qualifiers. Might wanna check out the builds, seemed pretty strong.
the build most were doing today was pretty straightforward, madred's -> warmog's -> more giant's belt items, but I personally advocate more AD in solo queue games. I'd say you either go spirit stone -> warmog's -> lizard spirit or wriggle's -> phage -> mog's.
I actually think Jarvan has the potential to be super fucking good as a 1v2 laner in competitive play (the efficiency of Dragon Strike as a 1v2 farming skill at low mana cost/CD/high damage is only matched by Olaf's Undertow, and Jarvan is both much harder to dive and stronger on low farm than Olaf is), but that's irrelevant to 99% of peoples' normal experience.
On January 13 2013 16:44 Mogwai wrote: the build most were doing today was pretty straightforward, madred's -> warmog's -> more giant's belt items, but I personally advocate more AD in solo queue games. I'd say you either go spirit stone -> warmog's -> lizard spirit or wriggle's -> phage -> mog's.
On January 12 2013 17:43 HughMyron wrote: Is Jungle Jarvan still playable?
I've been experimenting a bit, but I really hate the S3 Jungle. Because it's worth even less than the S2 Jungle, if you fall behind, you pretty much faceplant.
I think he was played 3 or 4 times today in the Riot S3 Offline Qualifiers. Might wanna check out the builds, seemed pretty strong.
Locket definitely good idea. Zekes... I guess after locket you have moderate tankyness, but Zeke really isn't a lot of damage - it got nerfed pretty badly with S3 - mostly because it costs 2400 now.
Well, playing with him for a bit, and there was one thing I noticed above everything else: MANA IS WTF. Using his abilities to clear without blue buff brings him so low, I actually feel I have to conserve them to make sure I have everything ready for ganks. Should I be buying something like Glacial early? I feel he at least needs something, because without anything it's really difficult.
are you just useing one eq combo per camp? I've never had that bad mana problems with jarvan although hes more of a heavy gank jungler instead of a farmer.
Try eing when you're at the camp and then qing a few seconds later to make more use of your flag's passive?
I prefer opening spirit stone in soloq (1250-1350, however I've played a lot of games of J4 and also done customs testing out madreds vs stone extensively) for a couple reasons:
- Better mana sustain for extended ganking/farming. Sometimes I get 3 ganks in a row in between farming wolves and wraiths because the enemy team doesn't ward correctly and is overaggressive - Better build options for carrying your team. If you need huge early presence you can go mobo boots and then get tank stone for the tenacity. If you're snowballing AD stone is really strong along with Bruta for maxed CDR with blue = always ult always gank - Higher up front damage on ganks. If you're building madreds you need to go E>Q unless you want to spend 4 years sitting at wraiths since you don't have the mana sustain to Q twice, whereas spirit stone allows Q>E for better AoE clearing. More importantly, in a gank if you aren't landing your Q you're doing something wrong (unless flash EQ ult for gapclosing to killsteal l0l) but you may not always be able to land E if they're moving sideways and you want to guarantee the knockup. Q also has higher base damage and the armor shred makes your next AA+Pasive hit harder. The final thing is you can itemize AD only and the 2nd clear after first buy won't be painful whereas without AS runes you don't have enough ranks in E to make clearing really smooth on madreds
Madreds is better for is dragon control around the 8-14 min window. With spirit stone if you get a successful gank bot in that time usually you don't have the damage to take dragon (whereas after that you will have enough pts in E/other items/ADC has more item). Madreds is probably superior in arranged play because you have much better coordination.
On February 17 2013 12:54 xes wrote: I prefer opening spirit stone in soloq (1250-1350, however I've played a lot of games of J4 and also done customs testing out madreds vs stone extensively) for a couple reasons:
- Better mana sustain for extended ganking/farming. Sometimes I get 3 ganks in a row in between farming wolves and wraiths because the enemy team doesn't ward correctly and is overaggressive - Better build options for carrying your team. If you need huge early presence you can go mobo boots and then get tank stone for the tenacity. If you're snowballing AD stone is really strong along with Bruta for maxed CDR with blue = always ult always gank - Higher up front damage on ganks. If you're building madreds you need to go E>Q unless you want to spend 4 years sitting at wraiths since you don't have the mana sustain to Q twice, whereas spirit stone allows Q>E for better AoE clearing. More importantly, in a gank if you aren't landing your Q you're doing something wrong (unless flash EQ ult for gapclosing to killsteal l0l) but you may not always be able to land E if they're moving sideways and you want to guarantee the knockup. Q also has higher base damage and the armor shred makes your next AA+Pasive hit harder. The final thing is you can itemize AD only and the 2nd clear after first buy won't be painful whereas without AS runes you don't have enough ranks in E to make clearing really smooth on madreds
Madreds is better for is dragon control around the 8-14 min window. With spirit stone if you get a successful gank bot in that time usually you don't have the damage to take dragon (whereas after that you will have enough pts in E/other items/ADC has more item). Madreds is probably superior in arranged play because you have much better coordination.
I might have to try something like this in soloq. I've been doing the standard tanky build so of course it relies heavily on my teammates. The tanky build has been working out fairly well, but I'm certainly interested in testing out a more damage based build.
Normal build: Masteries: 9/21 if exhaust or 9/20/1 if taking flash Runes Arpen/AD Reds Ar Yellows Flat/MR Blues AD/Attkspeed Quints/Armor Quints/MS depending on Lane and Jungle matchups (ex Armor Quints on AD Mid/Top or Top/Jungle, MS Quints vs someone who uses MS Quints mid or top ie Ryze/Vlad)
R>Q>E>W If normal game where farming and kinda even I build tanky machete 5->madreds/boots-> wriggles/locket components--> Giants belt item for HP or MR as I can afford J4 is a heavy auto attacker in jungle and during ganks. AD/Attk speed helps clear, Arpen makes your Q/E --> R combo hurt more. Pretty much you have to build tanky because you are jungling, and you don't have enough farm comparable to a solo lane to build the expensive damage items that makes J4 a burst monster from mid/top. So you build tanky to survive your E/Q combo and the Ult that brings you directly into the teamfight, often surrounded by 3+ enemies.
My fun J4 item build when super, super fed as a jungler (you got 4-5+ kills on lanes). Since your solo laners didn't get kill gold, you need to build the WTF burst dmg J4 can bring if you get super, super fed during your first ganks.
Items: Machete5-->Brutalizer/Boots-->Kindlegem+Vamp sceptre+boots2--> Hydra. Tanky stuff as appropriate after (locket, SV, etc) The hp regen from Tiamat actually keeps you nice and healthy in the jungle. In addition, the active from Tiamat and Hydra allows you do clear camps very quickly while conserving mana for ganking lanes. Q into Tiamat/Hydra active will kill most small camps very quickly with the Q armor reduction. If you ever E/Q and then trap 2+ people in your R, you will be doing WTF aoe damage pretty quickly. I'd like to add a BC to the items, but I rarely can afford Brut/hydra/Boots2/Locket or Belt when fed, i'd rather use that 1188 gold to finish the locket (970 with kindlegem+bead) or get the Belt (1000). E/Q/R Hydra active will melt anyone within your ult. Super fun, but pretty hard to get to as a jungler This is only when fed, like, really, really fed and the gold distribution means you need to do damage for the team.
So I know a lot of people stop at Razor, but I feel like if you're clearing at all, Wriggle's feels a lot stronger and you're not quite as low when going to gank. Or is it just better to stock up on potions to keep yourself healthy? I just feel like Wriggle's offers a lot and is just skipped too often.
Also, when jungling, I have been completely skipping damage items (going for Bulwark/Locket as my main items), but I feel like I'm not contributing as much. Should I grab a Bruta at some point in there?
On February 27 2013 01:27 Requizen wrote: So I know a lot of people stop at Razor, but I feel like if you're clearing at all, Wriggle's feels a lot stronger and you're not quite as low when going to gank. Or is it just better to stock up on potions to keep yourself healthy? I just feel like Wriggle's offers a lot and is just skipped too often.
Also, when jungling, I have been completely skipping damage items (going for Bulwark/Locket as my main items), but I feel like I'm not contributing as much. Should I grab a Bruta at some point in there?
I guess getting Wriggles would be okay if you start out well, everything is play by ear honestly.
On February 27 2013 01:27 Requizen wrote: So I know a lot of people stop at Razor, but I feel like if you're clearing at all, Wriggle's feels a lot stronger and you're not quite as low when going to gank. Or is it just better to stock up on potions to keep yourself healthy? I just feel like Wriggle's offers a lot and is just skipped too often.
Also, when jungling, I have been completely skipping damage items (going for Bulwark/Locket as my main items), but I feel like I'm not contributing as much. Should I grab a Bruta at some point in there?
I play J4 in the jungle and in solo queue at least I find I'm nearly always called on to be the initiator, and as such I always feel like I need to be tankier. I run 9/21, and build Razor/Boots1/Kindlegem/Boots 2 (Mercs or Tabi)/Locket. From there I build (assuming the support has aegis which happens frequently) Wardens Mail (Randuins later), Hexdrinker, Phage or Mogs depending on the situation, usually all 4 at some point. I never feel like I have the gold to build a luxury item like Brutalizer despite the dmg increase it gives you as it's so much gold invested into zero defensive bonuses.
On February 27 2013 01:27 Requizen wrote: So I know a lot of people stop at Razor, but I feel like if you're clearing at all, Wriggle's feels a lot stronger and you're not quite as low when going to gank. Or is it just better to stock up on potions to keep yourself healthy? I just feel like Wriggle's offers a lot and is just skipped too often.
Also, when jungling, I have been completely skipping damage items (going for Bulwark/Locket as my main items), but I feel like I'm not contributing as much. Should I grab a Bruta at some point in there?
Razor+Spirit is better than finished Wriggle's.
I feel razor and spirit are equal to wriggles on most junglers in just about every way. Exceptions being junglers with exceptional attack speed or no mana. The first item combo is 200 gold cheaper but that's made up for by free wards. I just like finishing all the items I start. Less slots taken up.
I won't sell madreds. I know madreds sells for only a loss of 210 gold, but I'm not buying red pots and losing 210 gold. About the only thing I'm willing to buy at a loss for 200+ gold is doran's blade for 6 more health pots. And most games are decided before I have to sell the dorans.
If I built a ton of early game items that don't scale like catalyst and sheen, and started winning the game, but then had to sell them or upgrade them into items I didn't need, then I'd start throwing games where I were winning. I don't think it's as big of a deal to sell Doran's blades.
Are people still maxing q in jungle? I just feel like e is super safe, less mana and more armor for higher health. Plus with the buffed madreds (compared to season 2) the atspd bonus becomes much more desirable. Not to mention the actual mobility part of your combo relies on your e cd not your q (yes smash says different in the op, but in terms of actually running away or getting a second knock up during a chase). What do you guys max? I go R>E>Q>W with 1 pt of w at 4 for ganks.
On February 27 2013 19:08 1godless wrote: Are people still maxing q in jungle? I just feel like e is super safe, less mana and more armor for higher health. Plus with the buffed madreds (compared to season 2) the atspd bonus becomes much more desirable. Not to mention the actual mobility part of your combo relies on your e cd not your q (yes smash says different in the op, but in terms of actually running away or getting a second knock up during a chase). What do you guys max? I go R>E>Q>W with 1 pt of w at 4 for ganks.
I think maxing E first is a no-brainer. The benefits are HUGE. Additional AS and Armor for you and your allies is just priceless.
I always max Q first for ganks, higher damage and the armor shred. Jarvan does more burst then sustained, that initial EQ combo into ult is most of his damage.
Nothing about levelling E reduces the cooldown. Hence taking Q allows for generally greater burst, and a skill more likely to be able to be cast twice in a gank.
Well, there's no question about level your Q first now with the impending changes. The question now is whether you level W for mid-game ganking power or E for farm.
Edit: honestly, it's looking to me like W is going to take priority. Starndard's cooldown doesn't scale at all with level, and that armor being removed (or shifted over, as Riot would have you believe) makes W's scaling ability far more desirable, seeing as Jarvan is a pretty balls-deep ganker early-on.
On March 14 2013 06:49 Cedstick wrote: Well, there's no question about level your Q first now with the impending changes. The question now is whether you level W for mid-game ganking power or E for farm.
Edit: honestly, it's looking to me like W is going to take priority. Starndard's cooldown doesn't scale at all with level, and that armor being removed (or shifted over, as Riot would have you believe) makes W's scaling ability far more desirable, seeing as Jarvan is a pretty balls-deep ganker early-on.
What? I disagree. You still get the (double-dipping) attack speed and self-armor. You only lose the armor aura (and the double-dipping armor)
Are you sure it's just the armor aura? I thought it was both. If it's just the aura, then yeah, I'm sticking with E. If the armor is completely stripped from the Standard, then I'm going with W.
These days I've started giving W more priority over E as well since the nerf. With Locket, at level 12 or so, you can give your urself and allies a 170 shield plus 160 from W. That in itself is over 330 shield to be absorbed and not even factoring the slow it gives.
It's still up to you to either go for more damage or more tank but IMO, if your team has a solid damage output, having a nice surprise shield burst can tip the momentum.
W is awesome for peeling. If I ever find my team falling behind against a team that can chase, I would max W after E for the utility that it brings. E still too good to pass up in terms of providing the team with AS and yourself with armour.
max e first. good stats. Q not really that useful until later in the game for the armor shred. locket is the best item. Gives good cdr for more cc/utiloity
Q CD goes down, E's does not. Considering you get 2.16 Qs per E at max rank CD, the DPS is HEAVILY skewed towards Q maxing first. Q > E > W, really no question tbh.
When you're jungling, you should go razors -> Aegis -> Locket -> more tank stuff. If your team desperately needs damage from you in the jungle, Black Cleaver is probably your best bet, but honestly it's pretty bad news if you can't just build tank from the jungle.
When you're soloing, you have more leeway with build and I usually build as a nuker with stuff like Hexdrinker, Bloodthirster, Blade of the Ruined King, and Trinity Force (Cleaver still fine too). You can build tank too, but it's a pretty meh pick to stick Jarvan in a solo lane and just use his income on tankiness (need high deeps from the jangle).
Mallet's always a fine offensive splash in heavy defensive builds too.
On June 18 2013 17:52 Mogwai wrote: Q CD goes down, E's does not. Considering you get 2.16 Qs per E at max rank CD, the DPS is HEAVILY skewed towards Q maxing first. Q > E > W, really no question tbh.
When you're jungling, you should go razors -> Aegis -> Locket -> more tank stuff. If your team desperately needs damage from you in the jungle, Black Cleaver is probably your best bet, but honestly it's pretty bad news if you can't just build tank from the jungle.
When you're soloing, you have more leeway with build and I usually build as a nuker with stuff like Hexdrinker, Bloodthirster, Blade of the Ruined King, and Trinity Force (Cleaver still fine too). You can build tank too, but it's a pretty meh pick to stick Jarvan in a solo lane and just use his income on tankiness (need high deeps from the jangle).
Mallet's always a fine offensive splash in heavy defensive builds too.
I saw better junglers (by better I mean, better than me) generally go: machete 5 pots -> boots of speed and spirit stone -> ancient golem (vs double ad) -> locket -> some more tankiness and one item for damage. I like that build myself and do it generally.
Yea, golem's pretty legit, I just find that it hurts your clear time pretty badly to not go razors, but if you're just ganking a ton and securing objectives with your team, you can definitely get away with golem (which is especially nice since you can then go spirit stone -> early Moba boots for the huge gank presence).
On June 18 2013 19:10 Mogwai wrote: Yea, golem's pretty legit, I just find that it hurts your clear time pretty badly to not go razors, but if you're just ganking a ton and securing objectives with your team, you can definitely get away with golem (which is especially nice since you can then go spirit stone -> early Moba boots for the huge gank presence).
I tend to go defensive boots over mobies and flash over ghost for jarvan (for the sake of initiation and I don't think jarvan requires mobies for gank presence anyway). Unless I'm playing against a double AP, I go for ninja tabi after golem and locket. Against double ap though, I slightly mix it up. I go lizard into aegis into mercthreads into locket and bulwark.
But that's just me, a random league player with skills no higher than silver.
EDIT: Going golem+hexdrinker+bulwark+tabi against double ap looks just as good to me.
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![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014182649/leagueoflegends/images/0/08/Guardian_Angel.gif)
![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091014184107/leagueoflegends/images/4/44/Tiamat.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7044/jarmander.png)
![[image loading]](http://edge2.mobafire.com/images/item/sunfire-cape.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5963/jarmeleon.png)
![[image loading]](http://edge1.mobafire.com/images/item/guinsoos-rageblade.gif)
+ ![[image loading]](http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6858/jarizard.png)
![[image loading]](http://edge1.mobafire.com/images/item/shurelyas-reverie.gif)
+ ![[image loading]](http://cdn2.mobafire.com/images/item/boots-of-mobility.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8471/drdunkenstein.png)
![[image loading]](http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/6218/stylepoints.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4620/howmadareu.jpg)
will get so many upvotes.![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/kbyY3.png)
![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/2guh8k2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zv9oT.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hoDgE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IvGjU.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZDA1b.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/kPraH.png)
![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/23vbz4p.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7jUgx.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TyqEB.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0O1b1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/257/6/4/league_of_legends___metajarvan_by_burningtramp-d49ueqa.png)
![[image loading]](http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/803/supportj4.png)
![[image loading]](http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/vegaobscura7/imtaric.png)
![[image loading]](http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/vegaobscura7/jarizard.png)
