EPT[Champion] Jarman the Fourth (aka Jarvan ok) - Page 18
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
I don't know why he's not banned in every ranked, imo very worth a ban if people know how to build him. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
When you say meta shifting, I'm assuming you mean the use of really sustainable characters in top lane to keep him from free farming.... My thing is that whenever I try to get a solo lane, people at my ELO just start trolling and take a vacation for the rest of the game, so I generally leave him in the jungle. Plus irelia is super popular in elo hell, and she destroys jarvan in top lane... | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: They didn't really nerf him that much..... Last two patches they reduced the bonus armor on his E from 26/22 at max level, and attack speed from 26% to 22%, his passive down to 8%, and the damage on both his E and Q by about 15 each. steroid nerfed by ~15%, passive nerfed by 20%, and both nukes base damage nerfed by 5-10% is actually a pretty significant set of nerfs. On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: I think he's still a really good off tank-dps but definitely not as imbalanced as before. The only problem I have with using him is that he is pretty vulnerable to being CC'd into the ground. No EQW+R on their entire team basically makes him useless, which is why I've started trying to build him with more on hit effects to provide some utility. His damage is frontloaded and he can initiate from forever far away... Honestly he's probably the least susceptible tanky dude in the game other than those with built in CC redux (irelia, olaf, mundo and singed). On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: When you say meta shifting, I'm assuming you mean the use of really sustainable characters in top lane to keep him from free farming.... more like they just zone him because they can just trade hits and he can't recover from the damage whereas they can. He gets ruined pretty badly by WW, Udyr, Yorick. On July 13 2011 00:58 HyperionDreamer wrote: My thing is that whenever I try to get a solo lane, people at my ELO just start trolling and take a vacation for the rest of the game, so I generally leave him in the jungle. Plus irelia is super popular in elo hell, and she destroys jarvan in top lane... dafuck? Jarman ruins Irelia. Early level Irelia is pretty damn forgettable, so she either needs to open cloth + 5 or get absolutely ruined by Jarman's early burst trades. If you force her to open cloth + 5, you set her back 175 gold in potions and force a 300 gold commitment to something that she doesn't really want early, so you get your Gold/10s way ahead of her and push her to her tower to make her chug mana to get last hits, which ends up winning you the lane by simply getting a fuckton more farm. | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On July 13 2011 01:50 Mogwai wrote: dafuck? Jarman ruins Irelia. Early level Irelia is pretty damn forgettable, so she either needs to open cloth + 5 or get absolutely ruined by Jarman's early burst trades. If you force her to open cloth + 5, you set her back 175 gold in potions and force a 300 gold commitment to something that she doesn't really want early, so you get your Gold/10s way ahead of her and push her to her tower to make her chug mana to get last hits, which ends up winning you the lane by simply getting a fuckton more farm. Glad I wasnt the only one that felt this way. Irelia doesn't have nearly enough sustain until 6 to trade with jarvman | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
steroid nerfed by ~15%, passive nerfed by 20%, and both nukes base damage nerfed by 5-10% is actually a pretty significant set of nerfs. If you look at pure percentages, that's true, but by just straight damage and armor numbers they aren't that much. I still think he's pretty viable in the jungle, but his clear time is slow if you take 0/21/9 which I don't like to do as much. 21/0/9 is normal for me but I find myself being much squishier. I've been trying to open regrowth and then go philo - wriggles - hog, but I feel like getting wriggles after philo and level 1 boots is kind of a waste, since you dont need either the lifesteal, damage, or armor to clear camps at that level. However if you get it first and then go philo, I feel like the g/10 from philo comes too late to make it worth it. His damage is frontloaded and he can initiate from forever far away... Honestly he's probably the least susceptible tanky dude in the game other than those with built in CC redux (irelia, olaf, mundo and singed). Am I initiating wrong? Normally I just EQ to get in range, knockup if I can, R on someone and then W... I find that after I EQ most of the time I get a stun or something else dropped on me, which hurts the teamfight overall because it's much tougher to land a good R after they CC you. dafuck? Jarman ruins Irelia. Early level Irelia is pretty damn forgettable, so she either needs to open cloth + 5 or get absolutely ruined by Jarman's early burst trades. If you force her to open cloth + 5, you set her back 175 gold in potions and force a 300 gold commitment to something that she doesn't really want early, so you get your Gold/10s way ahead of her and push her to her tower to make her chug mana to get last hits, which ends up winning you the lane by simply getting a fuckton more farm. I must be doing it wrong. When you say burst trades, you mean opening E or Q and just using it while abusing your passive on her? Every time I've been against irelia I get traded down by her true damage + stun. Is pushing a lane that fast good though, since you make yourself much more open to getting ganked? I'm still climbing out of elo hell trying to learn the game, so sorry if I ask stupid question. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On July 13 2011 02:00 HyperionDreamer wrote: If you look at pure percentages, that's true, but by just straight damage and armor numbers they aren't that much. I still think he's pretty viable in the jungle, but his clear time is slow if you take 0/21/9 which I don't like to do as much. 21/0/9 is normal for me but I find myself being much squishier. %s are the most useful way of looking at nerfs. Like, say hypothetically that they were to nerf Karthus's level 1 Q from 60 damage to 54 damage. It's easy to say something like, "lol, only nerfed Karthus's level 1 Q by 6 damage, who cares about 6 damage" but in cases like this you're losing the context of that 6 damage (low CD spammable skill). If instead you look at it as Karthus losing 10% of his level 1 Q's damage, the gravity of the nerf is more apparent. btw, this is 99% of the reason why characters secretly become OP/UP overnight. People don't analyse buffs and nerfs appropriately and underestimate the effects of "tweaking stats." On July 13 2011 02:00 HyperionDreamer wrote: I've been trying to open regrowth and then go philo - wriggles - hog, but I feel like getting wriggles after philo and level 1 boots is kind of a waste, since you dont need either the lifesteal, damage, or armor to clear camps at that level. However if you get it first and then go philo, I feel like the g/10 from philo comes too late to make it worth it. I've been playing a lot of jungle jarman on my stream recently. 0/21/9, open regrowth, grab Philo + HoG and then Wriggles. Yes, I know, late wriggles... YOU STILL NEED IT. Your later jungling speed tapers off REALLY REALLY fast if you don't grab that wriggles because early you're basically just getting away with raping camps off the base damages of Q and E, but as they get stronger, you're simply going to chug through too much mana and take too much time to farm jungle camps during downtime. On July 13 2011 02:00 HyperionDreamer wrote: Am I initiating wrong? Normally I just EQ to get in range, knockup if I can, R on someone and then W... I find that after I EQ most of the time I get a stun or something else dropped on me, which hurts the teamfight overall because it's much tougher to land a good R after they CC you. so you're a tank, you just CCed multiple enemy players AND drew some of their CC and you're considering this an initiating failure? if Jarman could do this every time he'd be ban/FP material in every single competitive game because that's boss as hell. only things that sound wrong in your description there is that you're rushing/forcing ult (wait on it more, his ult shouldn't always be an immediate follow up since it can often screw you/teammates) and not being sure that you're knocking someone one (seriously, you should never fail to knock up at least 1 person when E->Qing into a fight). On July 13 2011 02:00 HyperionDreamer wrote: I must be doing it wrong. When you say burst trades, you mean opening E or Q and just using it while abusing your passive on her? Every time I've been against irelia I get traded down by her true damage + stun. starting at level 2 you just E->Q->passive irelia and she takes 1/3-1/2 her HP in burst without having a strong retaliation. You win because your passive is a nuke, you have 2 other nukes, 1 of those other nukes gives you over 20 armor and irelia's nukes are mana inefficient and her attacks get raped by your bonus armor. you just burst, run into your creepwave and then stand and fight if she tries to fight you under your own creep. On July 13 2011 02:00 HyperionDreamer wrote: Is pushing a lane that fast good though, since you make yourself much more open to getting ganked? I'm still climbing out of elo hell trying to learn the game, so sorry if I ask stupid question. I'm saying you just shove the creep wave all the way up to her tower and then B, grab philo + Ward and then can continue to do that and end up ahead. You have a considerable pushing advantage in the matchup on top of having a considerable 1v1ing advantage at levels 1-5, it's just a matter of knowing how to use these advantages appropriately. | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
Are you getting merc treads? thats the only boots I've been getting on jarvan and I never have a problem in team fights unless I'm trying to like 1v5 and dive two towers or something dumb. You should crush irelia with EQ auto attack and then back off. If she activates W then you just run and don't fight her until it's over, ezpz | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
Like, say hypothetically that they were to nerf Karthus's level 1 Q from 60 damage to 54 damage. It's easy to say something like, "lol, only nerfed Karthus's level 1 Q by 6 damage, who cares about 6 damage" but in cases like this you're losing the context of that 6 damage (low CD spammable skill). If instead you look at it as Karthus losing 10% of his level 1 Q's damage, the gravity of the nerf is more apparent. btw, this is 99% of the reason why characters secretly become OP/UP overnight. People don't analyse buffs and nerfs appropriately and underestimate the effects of "tweaking stats." So I understand that example, since 10% of a spammable skill is significant over time. Karthus relies on that skill in lane a lot to zone, so it makes sense that nerfing it by 10% would make a difference in the whole lane context. But jarvan I understand less. They nerfed his Q damage by around 10%, but since that's a high cooldown skill, wouldn't the argument pertaining to Karthus be less valid? I can still see that it's definitely a significant nerf, but decreasing his damage by 10% every 9 seconds (the cooldown on dragon strike IIRC) has a lot less impact on his overall damage output than low CD skills. Sorry for pressing this, I'm still trying to learn. I've been playing a lot of jungle jarman on my stream recently. 0/21/9, open regrowth, grab Philo + HoG and then Wriggles. Yes, I know, late wriggles... YOU STILL NEED IT. Your later jungling speed tapers off REALLY REALLY fast if you don't grab that wriggles because early you're basically just getting away with raping camps off the base damages of Q and E, but as they get stronger, you're simply going to chug through too much mana and take too much time to farm jungle camps during downtime. What times do you normally stream, and is it under the same name, Mogwai? I'm always interested in watching high level people play, and I will open that way in future. only things that sound wrong in your description there is that you're rushing/forcing ult (wait on it more, his ult shouldn't always be an immediate follow up since it can often screw you/teammates) and not being sure that you're knocking someone one (seriously, you should never fail to knock up at least 1 person when E->Qing into a fight). I knock up 95% of the time. The only time it doesn't really happen is when one of their players is isolated and I use EQ to get in range for ult to keep them around until my carries can catch up and roll them. Since his ult is pretty low CD, its worth a kill i think. starting at level 2 you just E->Q->passive irelia and she takes 1/3-1/2 her HP in burst without having a strong retaliation. You win because your passive is a nuke, you have 2 other nukes, 1 of those other nukes gives you over 20 armor and irelia's nukes are mana inefficient and her attacks get raped by your bonus armor. you just burst, run into your creepwave and then stand and fight if she tries to fight you under your own creep. That is true, especially regarding mana on irelia. I have that problem with her in lane quite a bit until I get philo. I'm probably letting her get too many stun+free true damage combos off, which is always annoying. Thanks for the tips. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
jungle jarman atm | ||
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
On July 13 2011 02:20 Phrost wrote: You ideally want to land E very close if not ontop of your target and then Q in for the knock up. If you're not in melee range after doing that, then there is some problem. Are you getting merc treads? thats the only boots I've been getting on jarvan and I never have a problem in team fights unless I'm trying to like 1v5 and dive two towers or something dumb. You should crush irelia with EQ auto attack and then back off. If she activates W then you just run and don't fight her until it's over, ezpz I don't really have problems with jarvan in lane as irelia but i run pretty defensive runes and 0/21/9 with a regrowth+pot+tele. If you position yourself right anytime he tries to combo early he will do 1/4th-1/3rd but also eat a stun and minion damage and push the lane, and if he initiates pre 6 he is prob dead if your jungler comes to help as he won't have a ward. Also once he pushes the lane simply last hit at the tower and you'll be full again by time he can re combo. If its real bad b the tele in with regroth+ another couple pots and by time you use them up you will be 6. Another big thing is predicting his e and not letting that land on you. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
Watching right now. Damn, this is some good stuff. Artosis would call it high, high level play. ^_^ | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:26 broz0rs wrote: that game was tough to watch. that Lapaka kid pretty much lost it and raged til no end. terrible terrible damage.... i'm not good enough to comment on his play but his bm was way across the line. | ||
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Craton
United States17274 Posts
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LancerStarcraft
United States235 Posts
On July 20 2011 08:26 Craton wrote: The more I play jungle jarman, the less I like it. Just feels like you take so long to get strong. I get the same feeling. I mean his level 2 and 3 ganks are awesome, but I just feel so slow in the jungle and really susceptible to having my camps stolen. I dunno I just always feel spectacularly underfarmed in the jungle. | ||
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Craton
United States17274 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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