EPTGood thing I decided to buy him instead of that fucker Udyr.
[Champion] Jarman the Fourth (aka Jarvan ok) - Page 11
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GARO
United States2255 Posts
Good thing I decided to buy him instead of that fucker Udyr. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 17 2011 04:13 Mogwai wrote: uncertain. Xypherous made some post about how he thinks there are very large fundamental problems with the design of Jarman, Irelia and Nocturne and how he thinks none of them have counters and thus need attention on reworks, but that doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of changes in the near future (since they've been aware of the Irelia problem forever now and she doesn't seem to be seeing any nerfs). That sounds pretty vague. How are there large fundamental design problems with Jarman and Irelia but not with, say, Xin Zhao? | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 17 2011 07:10 Zato-1 wrote: That sounds pretty vague. How are there large fundamental design problems with Jarman and Irelia but not with, say, Xin Zhao? That made me literally giggle. They suddenly somehow realized that putting like 40 special effects on one champion is bad design? What were they thinking when they released him? Slow, Armor reduction, shield, knockup, arena, 3 nukes, range, 56 goddamn armor and AS for free with near 100% uptime with CDR, tons other shit I cannot remember and it's only now they realize it is bad design? Vayne only makes the suspicion grow - they release their champs being OP in mind for them to sell well. But they don't want to make it obvious so they are hesitant to nerf them, instead buffing/reworking stuff that they have promptly replaced. The thing is, you cannot rework every champion every two weeks. | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 17 2011 07:10 Zato-1 wrote: That sounds pretty vague. How are there large fundamental design problems with Jarman and Irelia but not with, say, Xin Zhao? The problems with champs like Jarman, Renekton and Irelia is that they naturally do a lot of damage without needing a lot of itemisation. They also have good base stats, including the natural Mres/lvl. This then encourages them to buy tank items as they they benefit less than, say, Yi would from buying pure DPS. It is also easier to itemise defensively rather than offensively. That means that they are able to become rather tanky and still do a lot of damage relatively quickly and continue doing so. They of course still have the option to buy damage items if they want to as well. Think of it like playing an assassin champ, except you're also hard to kill. For example, Irelia only has AD scaling on her Q (straight 1:1) and R (+0.6). Her E and R scale with AP (which you won't really want to build). So when it comes to spending your gold in the most efficient manner, tanky items (Trinity then Randuin or something) make the most sense as it guarantees your get your burst off. Currently, she bursts almost as hard as (sometimes even harder than) some AP carries at 6 and has naturally higher armour and Mres which is just wrong. Her R also lets her heal up off creep waves a lot. She also deals Magic+Physical+True damage which makes it hard to itemise against compared to, say Xin Zhao. Jarvan is similar, except he has even more innate armour and better AD ratios (1.1 on Q and 1.5 on R), several forms of CC, a shield, gives benefits to his team and reduces your armour. This is also an issue with Alistar where the new AP cow can really gimp a squishy and still tank really hard thanks to his ult with no tank items, but I'm not aware of any nerfs atm. Xypherous is also not on the Live Balance Team btw. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On May 17 2011 07:34 MoonBear wrote: The problems with champs like Jarman, Renekton and Irelia is that they naturally do a lot of damage without needing a lot of itemisation. They also have good base stats, including the natural Mres/lvl. (...) This part actually applies to every tanky dps  The problem with these 3 champs mentioned is that they were given too much. Let's compare nocturne with yi - yi was designed to be squishy melee that deals huge amounts of damage and that's what his skills do (yeah, his W seems kinda off, but i guess it was at first supposed to be a skill that improves his laning, never thought about it though). Now Nocturne is a squishy melee that deals huge amounts of damage while having spellshield, hard cc and semi-global teleport. See the difference? BluzMan already explained why Jarman has too much stuff in his kit, same thing with irelia - huge burst damage (q, e, r), huge sustained damage (w), "burst healing" with ulti, healing over time with W, cc (at least they made it partially huge-ass-percentage-and-longass slow instead of just stun). And of course thanks to her passive using CC on irelia in teamfight is just dumb. Her skills are good both for 1v1, 5v5, 1v2, ganking, being ganked, tanking, lifesteal-tanking and dishing out damage. Too much stuff on one champion. "Old" champs had their limitations - the new ones don't if played properly (or at least they have way less limitations, of course nocturne is going to die fast if he's focused but he just has too many good sides for squishiness - which applies to many other champs as well - to matter. And he isn't even that squishy compared to true squishies) | ||
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Black Paper Moon
Chile20 Posts
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StuffedTurkey
United States859 Posts
On May 17 2011 07:34 MoonBear wrote: This is also an issue with Alistar where the new AP cow can really gimp a squishy and still tank really hard thanks to his ult with no tank items, but I'm not aware of any nerfs atm. . please dont nerf my cow! | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
this is waay off topic, but vayne es new cow counter, true dmg goes right thru his ult | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
I honestly can't think of a reason to pick, say, Mundo over Jarman on SR right now. TANK LIKE A TRUCK HIT LIKE A BOSS. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
I am thinking out pick him up after this week, seems very fun and the feeling you build a tank but still hit hard like and AD carry is pretty good :D. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:39 Tooplark wrote: If by AP damage you mean magic damage - that would be his passive and I believe flag. I honestly can't think of a reason to pick, say, Mundo over Jarman on SR right now. TANK LIKE A TRUCK HIT LIKE A BOSS. Looking at my last Jarvan game, I did 185,738 total damage, of which 149,184 was physical and 35,753 was magical. That's a lot more magic damage than I'd have expected. My items that game were ghostblade, mercs, randuins, FoN, warmogs, and atmas. Shouldn't be too surprising who carried whom to victory in that one.... | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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SHr3DD3r
Pakistan2137 Posts
Guess they just love delaying their items by getting g/5 items. Elementz I am disappoint. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
I can't imagine someone in SC who isn't using a-move having rank better than D... | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:18 xDaunt wrote: I like opening with 1 philostone (which I sell towards the end) and 1 HoG (which I usually build into randuins) before building into any other items. They give just enough extra laning sustainability to warrant slightly delaying my main items. Building more than that just seems like overkill, especially since you'll need to sell the extras to open up inventory space before long. Or you just build say a Phage instead of that HoG. Or build towards Warmogs if you're getting that. Unless Randuin's is one of your core items (I bet it's not), there is not much you're getting from rushing HoG. It takes quite a while until it can compete with other non-base items in efficiency. | ||
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