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On March 28 2013 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:
BT BC and Maw are all pretty bad on tiger udyr, but stuff like hexdrinker (dont upgrade until last item) and botrk and say lw are all alright if you want some damage
Why would BT be bad on Tiger Udyr? His Q gets 1.5 total AD added to the proc, and adds attack speed to make that BT hurt even more. I can understand Blade being really strong with the slow and the synergy with Tiger attack speed, but I can't see how BT would be considered "bad."
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It turns out from experience you don't actually get to auto hit that much to make BT good enough where as you get like 150+ damage burst on a sheen which is similar to a fully charged BT but only a small part of trinity force.
No item is bad because any item is better than no item however in terms of damgae items its inferior to trnity and botrk because ONLY ad is good early game but by the time you are finishing big items you want defensive stats and mobility stuff mixed in with damage. CDR/tank items with a small amount of damage like just trinity or botrk seems to be the best.
I mean getting BT and having lots of damage is nice but hten you realize you can't stay in tiger stance to auto hit because you need to stance dance because you have no movespeed boost or slow but then your CDs are longer because you didnt pick up any cdr because you want to rush this BT and hexdrinker for your AD and then you need tank items and it's just a mess.
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Increased AP ratios on Phoenix cone gives a slight edge to Nashor's over Wit's End I reckon, need to test
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On March 28 2013 11:20 Eishi_Ki wrote:
Increased AP ratios on Phoenix cone gives a slight edge to Nashor's over Wit's End I reckon, need to test
Removing the AP/AD kinda sucks though.
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Funny how the patch notes did not mention changes to tiger. also, tiamat aoe dmg with tiger out-waveclears phoenix stance. the active also resets autoattacks which help with his dmg output. the only problem is how to reach tiamat while staying tanky, once he has tiamat, he can even outpush singed
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On March 28 2013 12:18 Lightswarm wrote:
Funny how the patch notes did not mention changes to tiger. also, tiamat aoe dmg with tiger out-waveclears phoenix stance. the active also resets autoattacks which help with his dmg output. the only problem is how to reach tiamat while staying tanky, once he has tiamat, he can even outpush singed
I always go Hydra on Udyr, but ya same problem. Costs alot and you don't exactly get tanky while getting it.
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If you don't autoattack énough on Tiger-udyr to make BT worth it, how is a Botrk gonna be more efficient? Botrk needs even more autos then BT to be efficient and is strongest on champs that scale with attack speed. I can see the effectiveness of Trinity on Tiger, botrk might be efficient on Phoenix. It was the same with Madreds, right?
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These buffs don't change anything. Volibear and hec get more ms than udyrs 5 point bear in one point. This means you can't initiate fights well until you're lvl 15, or you put points into bear and lose out of clear time or tankiness. Also note that overall his bear stance was nerfed.
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On March 28 2013 17:30 Broetchenholer wrote:
If you don't autoattack énough on Tiger-udyr to make BT worth it, how is a Botrk gonna be more efficient? Botrk needs even more autos then BT to be efficient and is strongest on champs that scale with attack speed. I can see the effectiveness of Trinity on Tiger, botrk might be efficient on Phoenix. It was the same with Madreds, right?
Botrk scales best on champs who HAVE attack speed, since it gives damage on hit which is basically mass AD. The reason why Botrk is good is because of the active also. Free malph q yurp yurp
Udyr cant really initiate anyway, so don't worry about that.
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On March 28 2013 19:22 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
These buffs don't change anything. Volibear and hec get more ms than udyrs 5 point bear in one point. This means you can't initiate fights well until you're lvl 15, or you put points into bear and lose out of clear time or tankiness. Also note that overall his bear stance was nerfed.
How can you say bear stance was nerfed?
At level 1 duration/speed are identical (15% and 2 seconds) except that you get minion passthrough and additional MS from your passive whether or not you're in bear. While the movement speed is active bear form also gets a slight dash whenever you stun a target which gives you at least 1-2 extra auto attacks on your target. At level 5 the duration is shorter but with just 1 passive stack you cover greater distance than old level 5 bear except in 3 seconds instead of 4 (360 compared to 357).
Even if you ignore the passive entirely and look solely at rank 5 bear you're still traveling 343 distance and travel another 70-100ish when your bear stance connects. At 40% CDR your bear stance duration doesn't overlap anymore so instead of travelling an extra 321 every 3.6 seconds you're travelling 343 with bear stance alone + you still have passive.
Whichever angle you look at the math I just don't see how you can call this a nerf to bear stance. Movement is the only part of his kit which just flat out received a buff and no nerfs whatsoever.
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Well, you forget the rest of the stats in that case. I can't really give a mathematically prooved case here, as i don't have the right numbers on Udyr and on the Botrk, but the passive is 3% health per auto, right. So yeah, if you have a high base attack speed, the passive deals more damage. The same can be said for AD. It's just a matter of numbers. And Tigerstance really does not especially want attackspeed. Tigerstance wants AD. And the Item does not provide a heck lot. Now, some clever people could make a graph at which point the opponent health is high enough, so that botrk deals more damage with Tigerstance then a BT.
If the game info on udyr on the riot page is correct, Udyr has 110,51 base-damage at lvl 18. Let's round up t 120, assuming he get's some ad through masteries and/or runes. All my numbers are flawed, as riot hasn't updated the content on their site yet. Base-Attackspeed is not in at all. I know, that ad carries tend to have an baseattackspeed of around 0,6 attacks/minute, so, i'll take that for the sake of the argument.
You get up to 30% attack speed from your passive, and 40% from tiger.
BT:
0,6+0,6*0,7 attacks per second dealing 120+85 (half stacked):209,3 dps through autoattacks + 85*1,5 damage every 3,6 sec, assuming 40% CDR = 244,71 dps
Botrk:
0,6+ + 0,6*1,1 attacks per second dealing 120+ 25 damage: 182,7 dps + 5% health + 25*1,5 damage/3,6
so, in order to get the target hp break even point our formula is 1,26* (145 + (1/20*x)) + 10,41 = 244,71
and i don't need to be a genius to know, that every champion will have enough HP to make botrk more effective. duh. So stupidly costefficient still. You could factor in mr and armor, as tiger proc is magic and therefore more valuable, but i guess that is kinda irrelevant with itemization right now.
tldr: Botrk should be alot better then a bt on udyr or any champion that will not build crit and autotattcks the whole time.
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If you want a reliable site for champion base statistics http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com is accurate and up to date (except when confused people edit poorly worded abilities to say the wrong thing, but that's fairly rare.).
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BotRK is awesome for sticking to targets 1 on 1, it's not just about the damage (although he shreds people with so much free attack speed and the passive).
Really looking forward to trying out the new Udyr, I added him to my top lane repertoire recently so it should be interesting to see how the changes affect him.
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Saintvicious said Udyr is going to be broken this patch. I sure as hell hope he's wrong, i hate manbearpig so much
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how would you guys build udyr tho?
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On March 28 2013 23:23 Dusty wrote:
Saintvicious said Udyr is going to be broken this patch. I sure as hell hope he's wrong, i hate manbearpig so much
Imagine the same, strong and tanky Udyr, but with better mobility and gapclosing alongside slightly better clear speeds.
Enjoy.
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Wits end vs nashors is going to be a little closer. CDR gained value as did ability power however the cost also went up. Wits end is still retardedly cost effective against any team with a lot of magic resist but with singed and rumble nerfs and most junglers being physical based that's not so common a situation now.
Udyr relies less on attack speed now because his pheonix procs are dependent more on number of casts and with stance dancing as well cdr might actually end up being a better damage stat and cdr/tank builds be more standard with the wits end or nashors being the "im fed" item. Trinity is still just as good if not better than it was though because of the sheen proc being unchanged while you get more pheonix procs so you're encouraged to proc sheen more.
Spirit of the elder lizard nerfed again might not be worth it, spirit of the ancient golem +tabi or swiftness into locket and then more resists/cdr is going to be standard I reckon. Iceborn gauntlet might be better now with the ap ratios buff and less reliance on attack speed.
Won't need madreds either anymore I think.
Not sure about utility vs defensive tree now since cdr and %movement speed got better and cdr blues might be worth considering.
About saints comment I wouldn't be surprised I was successful with udyr in S3 already however the 12% magic resist/armour buff was retardedly strong late game and people didn't give it enough credit.
If you guys want to jump on my hipster bandwagon I started playing trundle like a bit over a week ago (before they started annoucing changes and shit ###hipster) and he's pretty good against udyr because his R and pillar kinda rape him.
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I'm assuming CDR will be the new high-priority because of the AD removal from Phoenix and the insta-proc. Unless you're building AD yourself, I think there's little reason to stack AS as Phoenix since you can get the proc immediately and then switch to Turtle for Shield/Bear for chasing and, with enough CDR, get to Phoenix again for a proc within those 3 autoattacks.
Of course mana-intensiveness of this will be pretty high.
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Optimally you hit both W and E before you go in and hit them meaning you should be primed with your full passive and bear move speed, shielded, and stun the target to be ready to get the full 4 hits (if you micro right if they try to run) for the double proc before hitting pheonix again for a third proc (thats 600 damage, + the 55 dps and auto hit dps which might be another 600 or so) and then hit another W and go in for the second stun and pheonix for another 3 procs.
Something like that
sounds retarded he might get nerfed again but who knows
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So ancient golem the go-to jungle item? Any use at all for the AP jungle item with his increased ratios on phoenix and the increased usefulness of cdr?
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EPT
