Responded to Requizens post on jungle Sion in TROLLS, and it turned out like a mini guide so I figured probably best to post it here.
On February 08 2013 23:56 Requizen wrote: I'm not sure if AD Sion sucked or if my team was throwing really hard. I did it in the jungle, which turned out pretty good . Safe, fast clear even with E max, got first blood because even without burst your stun ganks are pretty strong. However, I wasn't sure what to be building. I tried kind of tanky items, going Atma's and Phage + Blet, with a Negatron for the Akali that was running rampant, and I was doing a pretty decent amount of damage until the fed Akali and and Fiddle started running rampant.
Perhaps I should have skipped that Atma's and Negatron, going straight FMallet and maybe something like Hydra or Zephyr. Perhaps I should have upgraded my Machete as well. Single target clear speed felt fast enough that I didn't really want for Razor/Wriggle, but Elder Lizard seems pretty good with AD/CDR/true damage. Maybe not Ancient Golem, since I'd likely be getting FMallet and have E for health.
Still not sure about his carrying potential, even Volibear feels stronger as a jungler to me, but it's possible that I just haven't hit the right item build/skill build/mastery/rune setup yet.
And no more AP Sion testing, that playstyle is totally balls.
I've played a fair bit of jungle AD Sion this patch and I figured I'd share my thoughts.
There are a few obvious pros to it. Amazing ganks. Point and click stun out of the jungle is amazing if the follow up is even remotely decent. I've won several games purely by getting lanes fed beyond redemption. "Safe" early game (in comparison to AD Sion top). You're surprisingly resilient against early invasion with your stun, shield and steroid. The better jungle duelists have you covered, but Sion is good at stalling until help arrives at which point your stun becomes the perfect initiation. Most junglers haven't bothered invading me. Better sustain than expected. His passive does an incredible amount of work here. He obviously has no innate sustain, but pots/ls quints and masteries go a lot further than you would expect. Great base stats (with one glaring exception) and downright amazing steroids. More of a general AD Sion strength.
Cons include Slower ramp up. I like to think of AD Sion as a ticking time bomb. There's a farm/cs threshold that he passes where the game is virtually won by virtue of him being near impossible to handle. Fewer creeps and less gold make this threshold come later in the jungle, though it is still achievable. He's a "farmer" that really should gank. Similar to Nasus in a lot of ways. You have an unquenchable thirst for farm but a kit strongly suited to ganking. Focusing on one neglects the other. Luckily (and unlike Nasus) the stun is a one point wonder, and a R>E>W>Q skill order is an easy decision. He's a right click carry with abhorrent attack speed. Not much to say here. His BAT and AS/lvl is terrible which makes AS items inefficient but necessary.
I build Machete/defense boots (usually mercs for the tenacity)/phage/zeal as core. I havent gotten razors but they probably would be a good idea. Next item is tricky. You tend to be most effective in teamfights peeling for your adc (diving back lines leaves you vulnerable to kiting), so you need to be able to kill bruisers. If you can get IE before there is much armor on the field it's nearly auto win, however in practice by the time teamfights start rolling around there's usually enough armor around to make LW a priority buy. After that I finish PD, Mallet and IE with the order changing depending on how the game is going. I don't think I've ever finished a 6th item on jungle Sion as a 3.5k HP juggernaut with ADC strength right clicks and a targetable stun tends to finish games off quickly. Last item would probably be Mogs, Hydra, Atmas or even Yoummu but I haven't given it a ton of testing obviously.
I run 2ls 1ms quints/AS reds/armor yellows/scaling mr blues. Masteries are 9/9/12, taking ls and buff duration in utility. Basically I prioritize lifesteal with runes and masteries because I take none in my build and it does help him stay healthy in the jungle.
I really think he's a strong, if situational jungler. If you need a tanky/support jungle there are obviously better options, but if you need some extra damage his early ganks spiral a game out of control with reasonable regularity, while he's still turning into that late game monster AD Sion has trademarked.
On February 13 2013 16:58 Amarok wrote: Responded to Requizens post on jungle Sion in TROLLS, and it turned out like a mini guide so I figured probably best to post it here.
On February 08 2013 23:56 Requizen wrote: I'm not sure if AD Sion sucked or if my team was throwing really hard. I did it in the jungle, which turned out pretty good . Safe, fast clear even with E max, got first blood because even without burst your stun ganks are pretty strong. However, I wasn't sure what to be building. I tried kind of tanky items, going Atma's and Phage + Blet, with a Negatron for the Akali that was running rampant, and I was doing a pretty decent amount of damage until the fed Akali and and Fiddle started running rampant.
Perhaps I should have skipped that Atma's and Negatron, going straight FMallet and maybe something like Hydra or Zephyr. Perhaps I should have upgraded my Machete as well. Single target clear speed felt fast enough that I didn't really want for Razor/Wriggle, but Elder Lizard seems pretty good with AD/CDR/true damage. Maybe not Ancient Golem, since I'd likely be getting FMallet and have E for health.
Still not sure about his carrying potential, even Volibear feels stronger as a jungler to me, but it's possible that I just haven't hit the right item build/skill build/mastery/rune setup yet.
And no more AP Sion testing, that playstyle is totally balls.
I've played a fair bit of jungle AD Sion this patch and I figured I'd share my thoughts.
There are a few obvious pros to it. Amazing ganks. Point and click stun out of the jungle is amazing if the follow up is even remotely decent. I've won several games purely by getting lanes fed beyond redemption. "Safe" early game (in comparison to AD Sion top). You're surprisingly resilient against early invasion with your stun, shield and steroid. The better jungle duelists have you covered, but Sion is good at stalling until help arrives at which point your stun becomes the perfect initiation. Most junglers haven't bothered invading me. Better sustain than expected. His passive does an incredible amount of work here. He obviously has no innate sustain, but pots/ls quints and masteries go a lot further than you would expect. Great base stats (with one glaring exception) and downright amazing steroids. More of a general AD Sion strength.
Cons include Slower ramp up. I like to think of AD Sion as a ticking time bomb. There's a farm/cs threshold that he passes where the game is virtually won by virtue of him being near impossible to handle. Fewer creeps and less gold make this threshold come later in the jungle, though it is still achievable. He's a "farmer" that really should gank. Similar to Nasus in a lot of ways. You have an unquenchable thirst for farm but a kit strongly suited to ganking. Focusing on one neglects the other. Luckily (and unlike Nasus) the stun is a one point wonder, and a R>E>W>Q skill order is an easy decision. He's a right click carry with abhorrent attack speed. Not much to say here. His BAT and AS/lvl is terrible which makes AS items inefficient but necessary.
I build Machete/defense boots (usually mercs for the tenacity)/phage/zeal as core. I havent gotten razors but they probably would be a good idea. Next item is tricky. You tend to be most effective in teamfights peeling for your adc (diving back lines leaves you vulnerable to kiting), so you need to be able to kill bruisers. If you can get IE before there is much armor on the field it's nearly auto win, however in practice by the time teamfights start rolling around there's usually enough armor around to make LW a priority buy. After that I finish PD, Mallet and IE with the order changing depending on how the game is going. I don't think I've ever finished a 6th item on jungle Sion as a 3.5k HP juggernaut with ADC strength right clicks and a targetable stun tends to finish games off quickly. Last item would probably be Mogs, Hydra, Atmas or even Yoummu but I haven't given it a ton of testing obviously.
I run 2ls 1ms quints/AS reds/armor yellows/scaling mr blues. Masteries are 9/9/12, taking ls and buff duration in utility. Basically I prioritize lifesteal with runes and masteries because I take none in my build and it does help him stay healthy in the jungle.
I really think he's a strong, if situational jungler. If you need a tanky/support jungle there are obviously better options, but if you need some extra damage his early ganks spiral a game out of control with reasonable regularity, while he's still turning into that late game monster AD Sion has trademarked.
disclaimer: played AP Sion mostly in S2. Have not played him as much in S3 as AD or AP. I believe I am one of the few people who enjoys playing AP Sion mid. That style involves abusing your passive and W to last hit while looking for opportunities to Qs and blow up your lane opponent with Q+W combo or help via ganks. However you were most scary with lvls 5-9, your have some lvls in W and have backed to buy mobo boots to roam. Roaming and hard burst with Point and Click stun is the strength of AP Sion, and the same applies in your experiences with Jungle Sion. You are just jungling to roam. Also that E steroid is amazing.
When AD Sion jungle further, I found I had 2 issues.
1) I was leveling E for the steroid and health boost, but because of that I felt my clear times were slower and my W was useless. I almost didn't even use it because it would get popped and I'd just lifesteal back any damage I took anyway. Perhaps leveling W would be more prudent, if just for safer/faster clearing and a bit more burst in ganks.
2) Like you said, he's torn between farming and ganking. In a game where I didn't get a lot of kills/assists, but had to gank to save lanes, I was useless outside of my stun because I had no damage or utility. I just don't think there's a place for a full farm jungler in solo queue, where people rely on the jungler to more or less hold their hand for most of the early/mid game, when you want to be clearing as much as possible. Maybe in arranged 5s, or when I'm higher ELO and people can hold their lanes without intervention.
On February 14 2013 00:29 Requizen wrote: When AD Sion jungle further, I found I had 2 issues.
1) I was leveling E for the steroid and health boost, but because of that I felt my clear times were slower and my W was useless. I almost didn't even use it because it would get popped and I'd just lifesteal back any damage I took anyway. Perhaps leveling W would be more prudent, if just for safer/faster clearing and a bit more burst in ganks.
2) Like you said, he's torn between farming and ganking. In a game where I didn't get a lot of kills/assists, but had to gank to save lanes, I was useless outside of my stun because I had no damage or utility. I just don't think there's a place for a full farm jungler in solo queue, where people rely on the jungler to more or less hold their hand for most of the early/mid game, when you want to be clearing as much as possible. Maybe in arranged 5s, or when I'm higher ELO and people can hold their lanes without intervention.
I wouldn't think prioritizing W would be better. You get more single target damage out of E and given the monster HP distribution I think you'd notice the weaker steroid. There's also the issue of ramp up time. Sion needs HP from his E to be able to build predominantly damage and not simply explode in teamfights. I could see an extra level in W pre 6 being useful if you were worried about a burst coming out of an invade, but I'd definitely want to have 5 levels in E by level 9. In mid game skirmishes/dragon fights you get more mileage out of the steroid and your ult so I'd want it as high level as possible.
As I said I didn't get razors, but if your worried about clear speed I'd definitely recommend it. I'd always avoided it because of his awful attack speed without items, and a desperation for 2boots, phage and zeal. This would also help the whole gank or farm problem as quicker farming leaves you with more ganking time.
If your lanes are losing, presumably you're able to hold a lane and tax without pushing. Sion looooves this. Every cs gets him slightly closer to that juggernaut stage we're aiming for.
I'm going to try jungling Sion with the typical tank, high cdr build. With 40% cdr he's got a 31% uptime on his stun... It would be interesting to have him go for a elder golem, IBG, mobil boots, bulwark build. Has anybody tried this, or have any insight? Obviously his engage is trash, but I think that he'd prove to be pretty disruptive, and maybe his goofy 200 range heal could be somewhat useful. I mean, everybody is used to focusing the dude.
On July 12 2013 00:02 canucks12 wrote: I'm going to try jungling Sion with the typical tank, high cdr build. With 40% cdr he's got a 31% uptime on his stun... It would be interesting to have him go for a elder golem, IBG, mobil boots, bulwark build. Has anybody tried this, or have any insight? Obviously his engage is trash, but I think that he'd prove to be pretty disruptive, and maybe his goofy 200 range heal could be somewhat useful. I mean, everybody is used to focusing the dude.
Might not be a bad idea. IBG would help his disgusting mana costs, but I think you'd still have issues there. You're just a lump of course, but perhaps tons of stun is worth using a champion spot.
I just really like taking advantage of the free stats he gets. For that money you could (nearly) have a Phage/Zeal/LW/IE/Mercs and about 2000-2200 hp (at a guess) and be a seriously scary skeleton.
On July 12 2013 00:02 canucks12 wrote: I'm going to try jungling Sion with the typical tank, high cdr build. With 40% cdr he's got a 31% uptime on his stun... It would be interesting to have him go for a elder golem, IBG, mobil boots, bulwark build. Has anybody tried this, or have any insight? Obviously his engage is trash, but I think that he'd prove to be pretty disruptive, and maybe his goofy 200 range heal could be somewhat useful. I mean, everybody is used to focusing the dude.
Might not be a bad idea. IBG would help his disgusting mana costs, but I think you'd still have issues there. You're just a lump of course, but perhaps tons of stun is worth using a champion spot.
I just really like taking advantage of the free stats he gets. For that money you could (nearly) have a Phage/Zeal/LW/IE/Mercs and about 2000-2200 hp (at a guess) and be a seriously scary skeleton.
Interested to hear how you go with it.
It's been really difficult. If you max your e first, it gets really hard to gank, and if you don't, it doesn't buff your health much.
I still think that he can be strong given certain circumstances, but if you build items slightly out of order, you're pretty useless. Get any number of kills and you're ridiculously strong though.
The heal on his ult doesn't really make it useful when building tank though, so it's sort of a wasted skill... that takes an ult slot.
If your top+mid and/or support are heavy divers, I think that sion can be very valuable, but otherwise there are far better champs. If somebody initiates for your team he'll be good and if your team gets initiated on he can peel well, but if its a poke comp he's essentially useless on either team.
On July 12 2013 00:02 canucks12 wrote: I'm going to try jungling Sion with the typical tank, high cdr build. With 40% cdr he's got a 31% uptime on his stun... It would be interesting to have him go for a elder golem, IBG, mobil boots, bulwark build. Has anybody tried this, or have any insight? Obviously his engage is trash, but I think that he'd prove to be pretty disruptive, and maybe his goofy 200 range heal could be somewhat useful. I mean, everybody is used to focusing the dude.
Might not be a bad idea. IBG would help his disgusting mana costs, but I think you'd still have issues there. You're just a lump of course, but perhaps tons of stun is worth using a champion spot.
I just really like taking advantage of the free stats he gets. For that money you could (nearly) have a Phage/Zeal/LW/IE/Mercs and about 2000-2200 hp (at a guess) and be a seriously scary skeleton.
Interested to hear how you go with it.
It's been really difficult. If you max your e first, it gets really hard to gank, and if you don't, it doesn't buff your health much.
I still think that he can be strong given certain circumstances, but if you build items slightly out of order, you're pretty useless. Get any number of kills and you're ridiculously strong though.
The heal on his ult doesn't really make it useful when building tank though, so it's sort of a wasted skill... that takes an ult slot.
If your top+mid and/or support are heavy divers, I think that sion can be very valuable, but otherwise there are far better champs. If somebody initiates for your team he'll be good and if your team gets initiated on he can peel well, but if its a poke comp he's essentially useless on either team.
I want to hear how this stuff goes.
With Regards to E max, I've never tried it but I don't think it'd be that useful. I'd get one point at lvl 2 or 3 for the huge damage increase with no mana cost. Usually level 3.
So I messed around with jungle Sion on the pbe a bit and got good results, but warning low level (1200) and also extremely casual because pbe.
I was starting Machete5, WEQWE (R>E>W>Q).
I found that having a level 3 shield was unncessary for jungling safety although it did help clear speed of course, although not by very much as the creeps were usually dying in a single E-enhanced auto post-shield anyway. Max W is probably noticeably faster, though. I was leaving shield at lv2 until 10 in all but my first game.
Focusing on ganking early isn't too hard or off-setting, I found. Since my levels from 7-9 are all putting points into E, that's when I really want to get my farm up, and I didn't feel that Sion was lacking in power with low items early on in any case. I was often buying Spirit Stone (enough mp5 to use shield once per camp when power farming, or use stun when not powerfarming) and boots on first back.
Solo dragon at level 6 with first ult is pretty easy as well. You can buy an early pink if your support has one and just fight dragon without anything more than SS and boots, maybe an HP pot if you get unlucky with your passive. Felt good and very useful.
Tiamat ASAP felt very good. If you can get it when your E is maxed out, Auto-Tiamat-Auto wipes camps instantly without the need of shield because of the huge flat AD steroid, and you can pretty much powerfarm while still ganking all the time. Counterjungling opened right up too and felt easy enough.
Was usually ending up with some mix of SS/Zerks/Tiamat/Glacial/WitsEndComponents, since with 300-500 bonus HP from E I didn't feel particularly squishy sitting on a chainvest / NMM for a while. Didn't play with SS upgrades but I probably should have? Looking for a bit of advice with this. Damage never felt low so far, although an upgrade to hydra might be better than finishing the wits.
Also, what do you guys run as your second summoner? I've tried flash/ghost/exhaust but TP felt pretty good for burst ganks since you can shield before you TP in, helps farming with tiamat as well. Will play with this, but I think I'll pick up Sion when I have the IP.
I like the idea of Tiamat, especially if you can turn it into Hydra at some point. Hydra especially has fantastic synergies with his kit (Hydras effects utilize AD/Lifesteal) and he gets the aoe damage he needs to clear quickly. If you're rushing Tiamat I would have thought the Spirit Stone was largely superfluous. It has hp regen and negates the need for you to use shield while clearing.
Not sold on Wits or IBG. His problem has always been his schizophrenic kit. One half doesn't scale well with the other so items that give you strength in a couple of areas hasn't really felt that efficient to me. It's mainly for that reason that I max E. I don't like delaying my hp ramp up to get a spell that is inefficient for damage on an AD Sion.
On extra summoner, I'm pretty much addicted to Ghost. Particularly with max E and you get much more value out of being able to stick on to targets. If you were putting more points into W Tele or the trusty Flash would probably be more useful.
I really find it kind of meh to build damage items on junglers cuz of how gold starved they are and basically if you dont get kills you fall behind HARD. Also if Sion is build as a tank his utility is pretty low. As for solo dragon @6 it's not so uncommon, most obvious would be Nasus and his utility is damn high. I really think that hydra build is strong on Sion, but should be build while lining. Just my IMO
I want to try out a wit's/nashor's style build on jungle sion. Maybe throw in a lichbane or something? Probably just razors -> wit's/nashor's full tank though.
On July 24 2013 21:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I want to try out a wit's/nashor's style build on jungle sion. Maybe throw in a lichbane or something? Probably just razors -> wit's/nashor's full tank though.
I have a friend who runs gunblade/guinsoos/botrk sion, pretty troll but he lives through EVERYTHING.
I really love junglers that can build damage and snowball games like that. Too bad my top laner always feels the same fucking way so I don't want to leave my team without a tank and then my ganks are all half as effective.
On September 28 2013 00:00 obesechicken13 wrote: Koreans started playing AP jungle Sion. It's pretty bonkers how much burst he has early game esp pre 6 but I wouldn't want the late game XD
I really love junglers that can build damage and snowball games like that. Too bad my top laner always feels the same fucking way so I don't want to leave my team without a tank and then my ganks are all half as effective.
I bet you can't find a pro level jungle sion game. Pretty sure bengi just did it for fun.
On September 28 2013 00:00 obesechicken13 wrote: Koreans started playing AP jungle Sion. It's pretty bonkers how much burst he has early game esp pre 6 but I wouldn't want the late game XD
I really love junglers that can build damage and snowball games like that. Too bad my top laner always feels the same fucking way so I don't want to leave my team without a tank and then my ganks are all half as effective.
I bet you can't find a pro level jungle sion game. Pretty sure bengi just did it for fun.
EPT
