So I noticed there's no Sion champion thread and figured I'd make it since I've been on a little bit of a Sion kick recently.
Sion, the Undead Champion
Sion's essentially an early game AP Carry. Some people will tell you he's viable as a Tank or a Melee DPS, but really Sion's underwhelming as anything other than a beefy AP carry who abuses 2 extremely strong 1:1 AP Ratio Skills. Tank doesn't really work because basically the only thing he does as a tank is use a single target stun every 8 seconds. DPS doesn't work solely because of his poor base attack speed. With low base attack speed, he scales poorly off of attack speed items and thus can never really compete with true DPS champions. If you really wanna bark up either of these trees, I suggest trying to roll them up into a hybrid-type build, but I really have no idea what to suggest there... maybe d-ring -> boots -> sheen -> merc treads and then shoot for stuff like Triforce, Atma's Impaler, Guardian Angel, Banshee's Veil, Phantom Dancer and Last Whisper. I dunno, it seems stupid to me. Aight, let's get to the nitty gritty.
Pre-game Spec 9/0/21 Sion has no need for Strength of Spirit because you never take damage due to Death's Caress being OP as hell so you might as well take the 15% MPen IMO.
Marks: MPen Seals: Mana Regen/Level Glyphs: AP/Level or Flat CD. I have AP/Level on my page and I hog blue buff, however, without blue buff, IMO you want Flat CD to have the 40% CDR for late game. Quints: Flat AP
Flash so that you can position yourself to blow up your shield on as many targets as possible Ignite to abuse your early burst and make people respect your ability to kill them
Laning He's really strong in a duo lane, but in my opinion he's one of the strongest, if not the very strongest, solo top in the game as at worst he just trades free farm with people who can shrug off his harassment like Morgana and Sivir. So try to get solo top. Open d-ring + hp pot and take W first unless you had to take stun to try to pick off someone in a level 1 encounter. Sit around and last hit, using your shield at first to shrug off their harass as you last hit. Also camp the brush vs. ranged champions until you need to pop out and last hit. Brush camping is really powerful with Sion because it lets you get your shield to the point you can detonate it before they can do anything to knock it down. At level 2, you grab Q. Sometimes E sounds tempting since you could get some extra health as you farm here, but ultimately I don't think 20 heath is worth the risk of seeing an early gank coming and not having your stun to run away. At level 3, you grab the 2nd level of W and you can start to use your W to farm creep waves that have been beaten up. E at level 4 to start netting some health for farming like a boss. W again at level 5, R at level 6, W > Q > R > E. Level 3 Shield almost one shots ranged creeps, level 4 shield does, and when you grab a NLR, you can pretty easily 1-shot entire creep waves, especially if you soften up the Melee creeps with auto-attacks as you sit in Death's Caress.
So your basic strategy here is to farm until level 3 or 5, depending on how squishy your opponent is and then just walking around his creep wave and trying to detonate your shield on him after letting him helplessly waste time and/or mana on trying to fight through it. You can stun him too if you'd like, but be careful about managing your mana. I typically only stun when sitting on full mana or setting up a kill. Also feel free to towerdive with your creepwave on the tower if you know you have the burst to kill the opponent. With your shield up, stun the opponent, ignite, auto, detonate shield after it takes 1 or 2 towershots for you and then briskly walk away and then come back and keep farming with imba caress.
Item Build d-ring boots NLR or Sheen (NLR if you can, Sheen if for whatever reason you're failing and need more mana to hang around in the lane) Deathcap CDR Boots Blue Elixir pump starts here Lichbane Void Staff/Abyssal Scepter/Zhonya's Hourglass/Banshee's Veil/Guardian Angel
Later Game Play Run around and 1-shot massive amounts of farm. I typically outfarm sivirs up until 20 minutes or so into the game simply by 1-shotting my lane and then jacking up opposing jungle with my shield or covering other lanes and 1-shotting them. Once you have Deathcap + CDR boots + Blue Elixir, you're sitting on like 300 AP and 40% CDR if you have CDR runes or blue buff, making you a fucking unkillable monster until the opponents start grouping up and focusing down your shield. Once they figure that out, you have to learn better shield timing that lets you detonate it before they can do enough damage to blow it up. Lichbane + your ult is a slick trick to heal yourself and your teammates for a ton of health too.
Uh, that's pretty much all I got, Sion's wicked easy and wicked powerful. Lemme know if I missed anything :p
I tend to skip taking my ult until level 10 when I can put two points into it in a row and go WQWEWEWEWRR then R>E>Q (W is maxed). E over Q because the stun duration doesn't change, the damage you do from it DOES but it still has the same AP ratio regardless and I enjoy getting more HP per kill because you will be farming like a boss during this part of the game. It really makes you super tanky later on with Hourglass against phys dps and Abyssal/Banshees against casters.
IMO Ghost/Flash for the chase-stun kills but ignite is legit too.
Also, don't forget that E has to be active to gain the health bonus on kill!
You trade 10 AD per autoattack and .5 HP per kill for 45 magic damage per stun and 1 second less cooldown. Per rank in Q/E. Imo that's a huge hit on your midgame burst, so I would at least consider it situational to level E over Q (can't burst hard enough anyways/already kill people with the lower damage).
The main reason you level Q, IMO, is for the CD. It goes 12/11/10/9/8, so it's a pretty big difference between level 1 and level 5 (50%). Also, the 200 extra burst damage is big before your AP goes into the stratosphere.
Actually, how do you teamfight as Sion? When do you engage, who do you target, do you retreat after you used your shield, when do you stay and pop your ult? Sion always felt rather awkward to me because his survivability explodes with his shield. Didn't really play him much because of this and I don't see him a lot either.
Another big problem DPS Sion has similar to folks like Nasus who also can deal a large amount of melee damage is: he doesn't have any moves that make him good at getting up to people. Since there are so many AoE CCs in this game (ashe volley, aniv ult, for example) that will be going up in fights, these guys can be CC'd into almost uselessness without even being focused.
As far as AP Sion goes, that second skilling order seems interesting and I'll definitely try it out (E>Q and R delayed until 10).
For items, I've always liked Deathfire Grasp. It's not particularly expensive, gives useful stats, is built from cheap components, and gives you a third AP scaling move. While Lich Bane + Deathcap + Blue Pot is probably more damage than any other combination of items for the same cost, getting Deathfire -> Deathcap should make Sion's strong early/midgame that much better.
I don't like an early Sheen on Sion now that they removed the pool. The easiest way to use his combo is to activate shield, run towards them, stun, hit, explode shield, and you'll only get one sheen proc out of it. Trying to add in some 2 second gaps in this combo is difficult and not always possible. For the same cost a Codex supplies a similar amount of AP and effective mana while giving CDR as well.
I haven't played Sion since the Zhonya's split, though, and while I definitely got Deathfire before Zhonya's prepatch, I'd maaaybe consider rushing the Deathcap now.
On January 15 2011 06:54 spinesheath wrote: Actually, how do you teamfight as Sion? When do you engage, who do you target, do you retreat after you used your shield, when do you stay and pop your ult? Sion always felt rather awkward to me because his survivability explodes with his shield. Didn't really play him much because of this and I don't see him a lot either.
Depends on teamcomps and shit, but super late game where you just explode after your shield does, you flash in, explode shield, stun, activate zhonya's, shield when you come out of Zhonya's, activate ult, whack someone, stun, explode shield if you're not dead.
Earlier, I tend to stun, run up, explode shield without exposing myself to too many of them and then run away until my CDs come back. I'm usually a poker with my shield and insta-gibber once I see a squishy under 75% HP.
DFG is an interesting thought to help scale lategame, but I can't imagine it being better earlier than after lichbane.
I play Sion a lot. Mainly jungling AD Sion. At times AP as well.
I don't think AD is bad. Yea, he has low attackspeed. But if you gank, you probably couldn't attack them at your max attackspeed anyway because they are running away from you. You have to run next to or behind them while hitting them, and in these situations higher damage instead of faster attackspeed is good. Usually I just go lantern, merc, ghostblade on him.
APen marks, manaregen seals, magicres/lvl blues and movespeed quintessences what I use.
Your ultimate + ghostblade gives you a huge attackspeed boost. You kill squishies in 4-5 hits usually with ghostblade+green elixir. Your ganks are quite deadly with stun+shield and your high damage, you can gank at lvl 4.
After lantern you can take down dragon with your ulti really fast (lvl 6-7). You will come out with max health also.
You can own with him really hard if you are fed. I also won a few TL inhouse matches with jungle Sion (not like it's that much of a feat).
About AP.. well the previous few posts had some good info, thanks. About skipping early Sheen, I will try that.
On January 15 2011 09:40 TheYango wrote: So I'm sort of confused about this weird aura Sion build I've seen Dan Dinh play more than a couple times.
Ghost+Heal, Aegis/Mercs/Starks/GA
What exactly is the goal of this sort of playstyle?
he's naturally unkillable because of shield, high HP, great rounded defense from aegis/GA, AND revives because of GA, so he's able to provide lifesteal for whole team with his ult and starks, heal whole team with Heal, defensive stats for whole team with aegis, and constantly be stunning their carry/peeling for his own carry while the other team has no incentive to focus him. imagine centaur warchief from dota - you've got no incentive to attack him cause it will just set you behind, but if you don't, he is constantly nuking and stunning your whole team. it's an annoyance support build, not a carry build
On January 15 2011 08:39 freelander wrote: I play Sion a lot. Mainly jungling AD Sion. At times AP as well.
I don't think AD is bad. Yea, he has low attackspeed. But if you gank, you probably couldn't attack them at your max attackspeed anyway because they are running away from you. You have to run next to or behind them while hitting them, and in these situations higher damage instead of faster attackspeed is good. Usually I just go lantern, merc, ghostblade on him.
APen marks, manaregen seals, magicres/lvl blues and movespeed quintessences what I use.
Your ultimate + ghostblade gives you a huge attackspeed boost. You kill squishies in 4-5 hits usually with ghostblade+green elixir. Your ganks are quite deadly with stun+shield and your high damage, you can gank at lvl 4.
After lantern you can take down dragon with your ulti really fast (lvl 6-7). You will come out with max health also.
You can own with him really hard if you are fed. I also won a few TL inhouse matches with jungle Sion (not like it's that much of a feat).
About AP.. well the previous few posts had some good info, thanks. About skipping early Sheen, I will try that.
In terms of whether you want to go AP or AD nowadays, i think its less that AD sion is bad (its still pretty decent, just takes awhile to get started) and more that AP sion is stupid good with deathcap. the fact that you can hit 300 ap with deathcap, 3 drings and some AP runes is just insane. not to mention the old zhonyas active was kinda useless on sion.
On January 15 2011 06:44 spinesheath wrote: You trade 10 AD per autoattack and .5 HP per kill for 45 magic damage per stun and 1 second less cooldown. Per rank in Q/E. Imo that's a huge hit on your midgame burst, so I would at least consider it situational to level E over Q (can't burst hard enough anyways/already kill people with the lower damage).
Interesting, I just learned something about the champ. That cooldown reduction is pretty significant in teamfights actually.
Don't you guys run into mana issues in mid/late with no mana items at all? I tend to get a RoA first, it slows down your AP rolling ofc but it gives you some much needed mana and makes you pretty tanky.
If you get bluebuff every time and don't die I guess it's bearable but in solo queue honestly that's not always a a given
On January 15 2011 18:43 Woony wrote: Don't you guys run into mana issues in mid/late with no mana items at all? I tend to get a RoA first, it slows down your AP rolling ofc but it gives you some much needed mana and makes you pretty tanky.
If you get bluebuff every time and don't die I guess it's bearable but in solo queue honestly that's not always a a given
mp5 per level runes plus smart mana management should cover your needs. Sion isn't super-spammy, and even in fights, you really only need to fall back on two spells. Your mana demands aren't enormous.
On January 15 2011 18:43 Woony wrote: Don't you guys run into mana issues in mid/late with no mana items at all? I tend to get a RoA first, it slows down your AP rolling ofc but it gives you some much needed mana and makes you pretty tanky.
If you get bluebuff every time and don't die I guess it's bearable but in solo queue honestly that's not always a a given
mp5 per level yellows easily do the trick, plus sion grabs sheen -> lichbane after hat which is an extra 200 -> 350 mana. I don't really have mana problems on him at all. If you still have problems, just go steal blue buff from your jungler, chances are they won't need it. His spells are kind of expensive, but during teamfights you're gonna get one shield, one stun, maybe 2 stuns off
On January 15 2011 08:39 freelander wrote: I play Sion a lot. Mainly jungling AD Sion. At times AP as well.
I don't think AD is bad. Yea, he has low attackspeed. But if you gank, you probably couldn't attack them at your max attackspeed anyway because they are running away from you. You have to run next to or behind them while hitting them, and in these situations higher damage instead of faster attackspeed is good. Usually I just go lantern, merc, ghostblade on him.
APen marks, manaregen seals, magicres/lvl blues and movespeed quintessences what I use.
Your ultimate + ghostblade gives you a huge attackspeed boost. You kill squishies in 4-5 hits usually with ghostblade+green elixir. Your ganks are quite deadly with stun+shield and your high damage, you can gank at lvl 4.
After lantern you can take down dragon with your ulti really fast (lvl 6-7). You will come out with max health also.
You can own with him really hard if you are fed. I also won a few TL inhouse matches with jungle Sion (not like it's that much of a feat).
About AP.. well the previous few posts had some good info, thanks. About skipping early Sheen, I will try that.
Could you elaborate abit on jungle sion, I tried some stuff out in a custom game but couldnt really find a way to not be super low when i hit lvl 4. What route do you take and and skill order do you take? I presume you start with normal cloth+5pot aswell? edit:what masteries do you use aswell? In my tries I was running 1-8-21 since I was kinda winging it.
The trick with Sions mana is realising that the stun is incredibly overpriced for what it does on it´s own. To make it worth it to use it over the much more awesome Shield (which is better than 1:1 since you get damagemigitation and AOE (!!) damage out of it) you either have to save your own life or get a kill. You can´t harrass with it, or even with it and a shieldexplosion. Rather than that scare people off with the Shield and keep lasthitting. During laning you actually don´t want to blow it - yet make the enemy think you do. Leveling the stun is imho a bad idea because you can´t actually want to use it frequently while laning - it´s too expensive together with the shield and you always want to use the shield.
Later in the game you need to abuse the 2 second Stun on a 8 second base CD. It´s possible to keep one enemy stunned for 40% of the time, look at it like that. In that aspect it´s as good as Rammuses Taunt. You want to be farmed enough that you can stand next to an enemy and heal your Team with your ult and possibly even get shieldexplosions off.
Jungle Sion is retarded easy, get a lantern and do whatever, I'd probably get HoG after then go triforce before finishing Randuins + whatever cdr item you need (SV/Frozen Heart). You play him differently from lane Sion because you won't have any AP but that's fine because tanky dps sion to heal team in fights with cdr for stun isn't bad.
There is no reason to jungle with him over laning with him though because he's hands down the best top lane in the game right now.
On January 15 2011 08:39 freelander wrote: I play Sion a lot. Mainly jungling AD Sion. At times AP as well.
I don't think AD is bad. Yea, he has low attackspeed. But if you gank, you probably couldn't attack them at your max attackspeed anyway because they are running away from you. You have to run next to or behind them while hitting them, and in these situations higher damage instead of faster attackspeed is good. Usually I just go lantern, merc, ghostblade on him.
APen marks, manaregen seals, magicres/lvl blues and movespeed quintessences what I use.
Your ultimate + ghostblade gives you a huge attackspeed boost. You kill squishies in 4-5 hits usually with ghostblade+green elixir. Your ganks are quite deadly with stun+shield and your high damage, you can gank at lvl 4.
After lantern you can take down dragon with your ulti really fast (lvl 6-7). You will come out with max health also.
You can own with him really hard if you are fed. I also won a few TL inhouse matches with jungle Sion (not like it's that much of a feat).
About AP.. well the previous few posts had some good info, thanks. About skipping early Sheen, I will try that.
Could you elaborate abit on jungle sion, I tried some stuff out in a custom game but couldnt really find a way to not be super low when i hit lvl 4. What route do you take and and skill order do you take? I presume you start with normal cloth+5pot aswell? edit:what masteries do you use aswell? In my tries I was running 1-8-21 since I was kinda winging it.
cloth+5 hp My usual route is golems, wraiths, wolves, blue, golems -> you are lvl 4 with 60% hp, ready to gank that lane where your little golems are. Other route is the same but after blue you kill red. You'll get super low, you go home, buy boots, then gank.
Skills are W, E, W or E, Q. You will be about the same health whether you pick W or E on 3rd level, but W helps more with wraith and wolf camps. At ganks.. W is 50 more burst damage, if you pick E thats 10 more damage per strike, decide which you want. If you wanna red immediately after blue, definitely take one more W.
Important, that you should use W only once per camp before blue. If you don't, you won't have mana to do it twice on blue and you 'll get really low, especially if you put two points on it. Always explode it, never let the creeps completely hit it off you. If you mess it up, you'll get really low, especially at the wraiths. This means activating shield at 1:36 by golems, you can take 3 hits. As you go towards the wraiths, activate it when you are next to red, and you'll have to explode it at the end of second round of wraith hits. Etc.
Masteries are 19/0/11 or 21/0/9. I don't always pick havoc, i find 5% damage not always worth it. If you have 200 damage, it gives 10 more. If you don't pick it, you can put 2 points on buff duration and that's better imo.
my solotop olaf rapes sion everytime so I wouldnt say hes the best. everytime other team picks sion i just counterpick olaf and get free kills top rofl
Havoc is awful because it only applies to BASE values, it doesn´t boost what you get from items/AP etc.
The big issue with Junglesion imho is that he a) has no definig advantage in some category over an actual jungler (safety:Warwick, ganking: Rammus, etc.) b) it forces him into his AD build which is imho his inferior aspect. You want to stand in the middle of the enemy Team and heal yours with the help of autoattacks and keep pumping out stuns? You are actually looking for Taric.
sion stuns/shields you, you just W all the damage back in 2 secs, throw axes at him when you feel like it. then at level 6 you just kill him, he cant do anything about it unless he has ghost/flash.
if that happens you just take control of the lane and ward top bush
On January 17 2011 10:15 Unentschieden wrote: Havoc is awful because it only applies to BASE values, it doesn´t boost what you get from items/AP etc.
The big issue with Junglesion imho is that he a) has no definig advantage in some category over an actual jungler (safety:Warwick, ganking: Rammus, etc.) b) it forces him into his AD build which is imho his inferior aspect. You want to stand in the middle of the enemy Team and heal yours with the help of autoattacks and keep pumping out stuns? You are actually looking for Taric.
a) And why play udyr? Rammus is a better jungling tank with ganks than Udyr.
Rammus can't take dragon alone, WW has worse ganks pre 6, you have the best stun in the game (and not you, Udyr). It's a different jungler. What's the problem with that?
b) But you dish out huge damage while Taric doesn't.
And by picking Sion maybe you can trick them into thinking that you'll go AP so they bring someone to counter laning AP sion and not effective against the jungling one.
edit: im not saying he is the best jungler. i don't say that AP sion isn't better, actually I think that the two aspects don't really compare but whatever. i watch streams of the top players playing alistar, blitzcrank and whatever on their team. why wouldn't you play a fun character who is certainly not worse than the majority of the cast.
You´d take udyr for his incredibly versiability. He can literally do whatever in the jungle, the point is that he is incredibly hard to counterjungle unlike Rammus. Taric could do plenty damage as well if you build him AD.
Who would be that strong counter to laning Sion that would have issues with jungle Sion? Sion is always countered by kiting, AD Sion just simply moreso because he needs to stick to a target but only has his stun for that while AP Sion only needs to get his burst off, then it´s fine to disengage until the shield comes back up.
On January 26 2011 10:11 Brees wrote: so I tested my theory of trundle crushing him solotop after some one first picked him. first blooded him in 5 mins.
lol'd at strongest top lane in game
yo, please rape my sion top sometime. I just don't see it.
How do you guys play against Kennen solo top as Sion? I just can't really find a way to beat him. I try to stay behind creeps, but he eventually lands his stun combo and I end up dead from that + ignite
the same way you play against any gay ass laner...
farm. you can't beat them, then make do and try not to fall behind. call for a gank, you have a stun, your gank has a stun, win.
Sion is a mediocre solo because he is way too mana-intensive. If you force sion to use shield or stun to prevent damage, or you are a champ that is trivial to heal with, then he doesn't have any way to sustain any kind of pressure.
sion burst > 99.999% of single target healing healing (maybe excepting nidalee). it doesn't hurt that sion is probably the best lane to gank for other than ashe, because his burst is insane and he has a stun. he can easily call a gank for those spam healers like nidalee and vlad. even vlad has a hard time against sion, especially if sion gets an early advantage (and gets absolutely demolished pre 7)
if i just farm in my lane i never run out of mana. though you have to actively manage it and plan forward a bit to have mana for stun+shield combo if you wanna kill someone in the next minute. it feels so bad letting them run because you forgot to spare mana to your stun.
All I have to say is that everyone should be running around as a lumberjack now and singing. This is clearly the way to be an even bigger asshole as Sion.
What do you guys think about starting with a mana crystal instead of a doran's ring? I've been trying it out recently and I actually feel like the extra mana is more useful than regen early on.
O_O My second champ was Sion (first was jax)[Pre-nerf] This was because my friends didn't want me feeding and got me to play OP easier champions... He was really fun... especially at lower levels. I didn't know how to play back then, but I knew that if I stun -> shield I can get massive damage done lol.
yeah, he's mediocre. Has one bit of burst that you call insane but is actually... not that good. lvl 5 is 335? lvl 7 is 440?
Sion lives and dies by his spammable shield, both to reduce damage taken and to harass with. if you're some champ that ignores it, you'll rape him. If you can force him to use it to counter your (better) harass, you win. (kennen, ez, anyone with range)
sion loses to: anivia/mundo/ez/galio/kennen/lux/malph/morg/nid/zilean
sion draws with: annie/cait/corki/fiddle/janna/karth/leblanc/malz/mf/morde/nunu/olaf/sivir
23 champs that simply aren't worse that him in that lane. mediocre from where I'm sitting.
its "insane" because there is a near sure-fire way of landing it (stun -> shield) and is fairly spammable. you can build up damage quick.
do you really think sion would lose a lane to anivia? lux (squishy ass bitch who comes for lasthit, gets stunned and blown up in her face, rinse and repeat?)?
i dislike hearing the ELO card being dropped myself, but are you secretly some 2000 ELO sion hater or a theorycrafter who has never been subject to sion gayness lol
For example, everybody knows that in theory anivia is the #1 champion in burst, even fairly early in lane. What with the double dip from her e, the extra autoattack she can get off while her opponent is stunned with her q, her passive against other laners with great burst, she should 100% win all lanes just by her numbers. But she doesn't, because she doesn't have a way of making her q hit until she's 6 (and even then it is still fairly juke-able if you are more skilled than your opponent). The reason for sion's dominance top is because he has damage mitigation, a sure-hit stun in which to get an autoattack or two off while blowing up shield, and he only gets stronger over time in lane (with his e, probably not super noticeable but something to keep in mind).
On January 27 2011 18:19 Kaneh wrote: yeah, he's mediocre. Has one bit of burst that you call insane but is actually... not that good. lvl 5 is 335? lvl 7 is 440?
Sion lives and dies by his spammable shield, both to reduce damage taken and to harass with. if you're some champ that ignores it, you'll rape him. If you can force him to use it to counter your (better) harass, you win. (kennen, ez, anyone with range)
sion loses to: anivia/mundo/ez/galio/kennen/lux/malph/morg/nid/zilean
sion draws with: annie/cait/corki/fiddle/janna/karth/leblanc/malz/mf/morde/nunu/olaf/sivir
23 champs that simply aren't worse that him in that lane. mediocre from where I'm sitting.
I would love to play vs. an anivia/mundo/ez/galio/kennen/lux/malph/nid/zilean every game. Literally the only one in your "loses to:" row that I even think can go even with sion is Morgana and that lane is just a ridiculous farmfest where they cannot touch each other.
I'd also like to point out that LeBlanc is the funniest inclusion on your entire group of 23 heroes. Sion just mercilessly shoves it in her ass.
I kinda wanna 1v1 Brees on Olaf/Trundle with Sion and see how he rapes me. As much of a troll as he is, Brees is pretty fucking beastly at this game and I do believe him even though I don't see how the fuck it works.
On January 28 2011 04:24 Mogwai wrote: I kinda wanna 1v1 Brees on Olaf/Trundle with Sion and see how he rapes me. As much of a troll as he is, Brees is pretty fucking beastly at this game and I do believe him even though I don't see how the fuck it works.
wtb obs slot to this game. I personally can't imagine how it works. Does Q break Shield? That's my main question. But even then, if Olaf misses his Q, it sets up Sion for an easy stun + shield explosion to the face. I can't imagine Olaf's W regen that much.
On January 27 2011 18:19 Kaneh wrote: yeah, he's mediocre. Has one bit of burst that you call insane but is actually... not that good. lvl 5 is 335? lvl 7 is 440?
Sion lives and dies by his spammable shield, both to reduce damage taken and to harass with. if you're some champ that ignores it, you'll rape him. If you can force him to use it to counter your (better) harass, you win. (kennen, ez, anyone with range)
sion loses to: anivia/mundo/ez/galio/kennen/lux/malph/morg/nid/zilean
sion draws with: annie/cait/corki/fiddle/janna/karth/leblanc/malz/mf/morde/nunu/olaf/sivir
23 champs that simply aren't worse that him in that lane. mediocre from where I'm sitting.
ez/galio/lux/zilean for SURE don't stand a chance against sion, i don't know the other champs well enough but i have a hard time believing ez/mundo/nid beat him :|
i'm almost annie/fiddle/janna/leblanc/mf/nunu would get crushed by sion, the others might be draws, again i don't play the champs enough to know the matchup
i also want an obs slot in the breesmogwai matchup. i can see a good olaf beating sion or at least not letting him get spectacular farm but i also don't see how trundle can stand a chance. really interested in that matchup
havent tried olaf since the patch since they weakened him, but trundle definetly still works. vs better sions you wont be able to kill them but they will go OOM very fast and you'll just get to freefarm.
(of course all this theorying completely disregards jungle ganks, and both sides have equally strong gank help with 2 sec stun and massive slow)
if trundle Q's you he steals your AD so you cant simply go auto attack to auto attack with him or you'll get crushed. this pushes sion off the lane allowing you to freely last hit.
by the time sion catches up in power (lvl 7-9) its too late and trundle will have zoned him too much/laning phase is probably over by now
On January 27 2011 18:19 Kaneh wrote: yeah, he's mediocre. Has one bit of burst that you call insane but is actually... not that good. lvl 5 is 335? lvl 7 is 440?
Sion lives and dies by his spammable shield, both to reduce damage taken and to harass with. if you're some champ that ignores it, you'll rape him. If you can force him to use it to counter your (better) harass, you win. (kennen, ez, anyone with range)
sion loses to: anivia/mundo/ez/galio/kennen/lux/malph/morg/nid/zilean
sion draws with: annie/cait/corki/fiddle/janna/karth/leblanc/malz/mf/morde/nunu/olaf/sivir
23 champs that simply aren't worse that him in that lane. mediocre from where I'm sitting.
i feel like you're assuming this is sion solo mid, where i've found sion is manageable for some people (ez and kennen i kinda agree with here, if you can dance far away enough). but that all falls apart when he goes top and you literally cant do anything to keep him from popping out of the bushes with a stun+shield combo taking out half your health
edit: not to mention the fact that sion shield absorbs a shitload of dmg, which i think you underestimate, and tbh, if he ran boots first could probably deal with those pesky long-ranged types (not sure about this statement)
i would never open boots. need dat early mana regen yo. and for whoever was talking about sapphire crystal opening, you only need to be at not-full mana for 50 seconds for d-ring to outperform sapphire during laning so yea... d-ring is definitely better by a lot aside from the fact that it doesn't build into anything.
On January 28 2011 07:04 Mogwai wrote: i would never open boots. need dat early mana regen yo. and for whoever was talking about sapphire crystal opening, you only need to be at not-full mana for 50 seconds for d-ring to outperform sapphire during laning so yea... d-ring is definitely better by a lot aside from the fact that it doesn't build into anything.
200 mana / (4 mana / 5 seconds) = 250 seconds
Assuming you are not at full mana the whole time starting when the minions clash in lane, you will be level 5 by the time you got more mana out of that DRing.
oh yea, lol, my bad, forgot to multiply by 5, DERP. I still think it's generally much more useful to have that AP and HP and the mana comparison is pretty close in realistic laning scenarios IMO.
ya, and besides sion is so gud at farming like a boss that getting sheen isn't tough cookies or nothing. generally goes back at 7+, because he's such a boss in lane that you can't force him back before then imo, so you usually get the efficiency from dring by that time too
the hp is very clutch, it can definetly mean the buffer between death and time for another shield during jungler ganks, and the AP never hurts either.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Boots of Mobility on sion, as this seems to be pretty much standard on top ELO EU sions. They usually go mid too, and use the increased ms for ganking and to help in the smaller fights early on in the game. Same item build too, just with the boots of mobility picked up pretty early (ie on first trip back to base along with sheen).
On January 28 2011 22:41 Goshawk. wrote: I'm surprised no one has mentioned Boots of Mobility on sion, as this seems to be pretty much standard on top ELO EU sions. They usually go mid too, and use the increased ms for ganking and to help in the smaller fights early on in the game. Same item build too, just with the boots of mobility picked up pretty early (ie on first trip back to base along with sheen).
reading comprehension ftw
On January 15 2011 08:00 Brees wrote: pro AP sion tip (used to main him on my weaker acct before people found out how good it was) :
if your vs a team that has strong kiting abilities, buy mobility boots. with your shield on you keep the movement speed until it bursts very useful
iounno maybe it's because most of those characters could beat sion and start trying to zone him at lvl 1-2. If you get to the bushes first and play that game with him, he's going to have to waste shields trying to get position, and you can easily retake it if you know his shield is down, cause he can't trade blows at all with his shield down.
If you can force him to blow his shield, and not kill creeps, then you can pressure him off the creeps.
it's the reason why the op says you need to get to lvl 3-5 before starting to apply pressure, and also why you need to blow up creep waves so your creeps can back you up while your shield is down.
sion's glaring weaknesses are the fact that he's a melee char with no heal and no mobility. his survivability and damage are all baked into a single very visible spell, and you can abuse that. Slap him around while shield is on CD.
flat ap quints magic pen reds mana regen/lvl yellows and blues
doran ring->boot->sheen->deathcap this is ur core dont buy anything else after this u can consider lichbane: most common follow up,turns ur beastly ap into ad damage real fucking pro item voidstaff: gonna need this when the carry gets banshee or u do shit dmg hourglass: turn gold,wait for ur cd's to comeback up,laff in ppl's faces *upgrading ur boot-u get either sorcs early when u have good gold lead or u get mercs after deathcap
Q at level 1 if ur teamfighting W if not take E at level 4 and never turn it off R>W>Q>E
dont fucking let ur shield come off due to dmg thats real fucking noob always go top not mid use the brush to suprise buttsex ppl pushing is okay but u better have wards
dont pick sion when they have vlad u wont win the solo lane and u'll be useless vs him in teamfights
ignite flash if ur feeling a stomp game flash ghost when the other team is good
I decided to go AD sion for the hell of it once and it was actually really fun. I decided to go manacrystal + 2 potion and going sheen, - swiftness boots - trinity then id go starks, ghostblade, banshees or quicksilver. It was hillarious cus I could chase anybody down and kill them with deepz! id go EQWWWREEEERWWQQRQQ id max W to solve his early game, and the stun usually has enough lane presence for me to stay there. I think I had AD quints, Armor pene reds, flat armor yellow and flat MR blue.
I know AP is better but its soo fun for noobbashing :>
smash what's your experience going against shen solo top? from my side of things (as shen) i've yet to have a problem with sion because vorpal + one ki strike will almost always pop shield (assuming equal levels) and so you burn mana just trying to prevent damage without actually dealing it. and when shield is down i can vorpal harass for an even bigger advantage. you can't trade hits because of the cooldown reduction Ki strike and you can't farm either. have you had this matchup at all?
Why the fuck do you people play AP sion? It doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, it's good. I'm not denying that. But in two equally skilled players (assuming both of them are actually fucking good), AD sion trounces everything. His melee normal goes around critting for 800 late game with ridiculous attack speed and life steal, add in his ult and it's just retarded. AP is great early game, and it's harder to play and stay alive with AD. But if you CAN, what the fuck is happening.
On February 24 2011 10:34 Fruscainte wrote: Why the fuck do you people play AP sion? It doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, it's good. I'm not denying that. But in two equally skilled players (assuming both of them are actually fucking good), AD sion trounces everything. His melee normal goes around critting for 800 late game with ridiculous attack speed and life steal, add in his ult and it's just retarded. AP is great early game, and it's harder to play and stay alive with AD. But if you CAN, what the fuck is happening.
On February 24 2011 10:34 Fruscainte wrote: Why the fuck do you people play AP sion? It doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, it's good. I'm not denying that. But in two equally skilled players (assuming both of them are actually fucking good), AD sion trounces everything. His melee normal goes around critting for 800 late game with ridiculous attack speed and life steal, add in his ult and it's just retarded. AP is great early game, and it's harder to play and stay alive with AD. But if you CAN, what the fuck is happening.
My favorite way to play sion is actually as a support, with soul shroud aegis etc
how did I discover this l33t build (which is now known)? simple, a long time ago I went 0-17 with lolz jungle ad sion, had literally nothing but wriggles, boots and something else at 45 minutes. hardest I have ever gotten crushed in any game. Even playing vs q3 pros I did not fail this hard. happily opponents were so bad my team somehow struggled against my heavy heavy weight to achieve only a severe disadvantage.
i decided i would never achieve any meaningful amount of ap or ad so I just sold my shit and started buying support items and instantly became a valuable member of the team. it does not matter how worthless you are otherwise, 2 second stun on a 4.8 second cooldown is some serious fucking cc
On February 24 2011 16:42 UniversalSnip wrote: My favorite way to play sion is actually as a support, with soul shroud aegis etc
how did I discover this l33t build (which is now known)? simple, a long time ago I went 0-17 with lolz jungle ad sion, had literally nothing but wriggles, boots and something else at 45 minutes. hardest I have ever gotten crushed in any game. Even playing vs q3 pros I did not fail this hard. happily opponents were so bad my team somehow struggled against my heavy heavy weight to achieve only a severe disadvantage.
i decided i would never achieve any meaningful amount of ap or ad so I just sold my shit and started buying support items and instantly became a valuable member of the team. it does not matter how worthless you are otherwise, 2 second stun on a 4.8 second cooldown is some serious fucking cc
Now imagine that stun had a 1:1 ap ratio. And this hypothetical character had some way to shield himself from damage so he could get that stun off. But what if he could use the shield to do damage too? And say, lets give it a 1:1 ap rato just for the lulz. But he doenst have enough survivability, so lets give him a spell that makes him gain health when he kills things. Thanks to his hypothetical shield, he can 1 shot minion waves, and get lots of health! Seems like a great character to go ap on to me!
On February 24 2011 16:42 UniversalSnip wrote: My favorite way to play sion is actually as a support, with soul shroud aegis etc
how did I discover this l33t build (which is now known)? simple, a long time ago I went 0-17 with lolz jungle ad sion, had literally nothing but wriggles, boots and something else at 45 minutes. hardest I have ever gotten crushed in any game. Even playing vs q3 pros I did not fail this hard. happily opponents were so bad my team somehow struggled against my heavy heavy weight to achieve only a severe disadvantage.
i decided i would never achieve any meaningful amount of ap or ad so I just sold my shit and started buying support items and instantly became a valuable member of the team. it does not matter how worthless you are otherwise, 2 second stun on a 4.8 second cooldown is some serious fucking cc
On February 24 2011 16:42 UniversalSnip wrote: My favorite way to play sion is actually as a support, with soul shroud aegis etc
how did I discover this l33t build (which is now known)? simple, a long time ago I went 0-17 with lolz jungle ad sion, had literally nothing but wriggles, boots and something else at 45 minutes. hardest I have ever gotten crushed in any game. Even playing vs q3 pros I did not fail this hard. happily opponents were so bad my team somehow struggled against my heavy heavy weight to achieve only a severe disadvantage.
i decided i would never achieve any meaningful amount of ap or ad so I just sold my shit and started buying support items and instantly became a valuable member of the team. it does not matter how worthless you are otherwise, 2 second stun on a 4.8 second cooldown is some serious fucking cc
Now imagine that stun had a 1:1 ap ratio. And this hypothetical character had some way to shield himself from damage so he could get that stun off. But what if he could use the shield to do damage too? And say, lets give it a 1:1 ap rato just for the lulz. But he doenst have enough survivability, so lets give him a spell that makes him gain health when he kills things. Thanks to his hypothetical shield, he can 1 shot minion waves, and get lots of health! Seems like a great character to go ap on to me!
I am well aware of how good ap is... it's up to what build best benefits your team obviously.
The support/tanky build is good though, believe it.
On February 24 2011 16:42 UniversalSnip wrote: My favorite way to play sion is actually as a support, with soul shroud aegis etc
how did I discover this l33t build (which is now known)? simple, a long time ago I went 0-17 with lolz jungle ad sion, had literally nothing but wriggles, boots and something else at 45 minutes. hardest I have ever gotten crushed in any game. Even playing vs q3 pros I did not fail this hard. happily opponents were so bad my team somehow struggled against my heavy heavy weight to achieve only a severe disadvantage.
i decided i would never achieve any meaningful amount of ap or ad so I just sold my shit and started buying support items and instantly became a valuable member of the team. it does not matter how worthless you are otherwise, 2 second stun on a 4.8 second cooldown is some serious fucking cc
The champion you're looking for is called "Taric"
This
In other news I've started to build for more insta-gibbing with Sion and now make Deathcap -> Void Staff -> DFG -> Lich Bane and it's really fucking hilarious how hard his SURPRISE BUTTSEHKS! combo hits with a DFG and Lich Bane in there.
On February 25 2011 07:27 Brees wrote: you know you're playing sion if you go 9-0 then past 30 mins can't do shit because everyone has veil and then die in 2 seconds
yea, this. man, banshee's is so gay, it cuts your damage output by 50%, fucking IMBA item.
On February 24 2011 09:52 gtrsrs wrote: smash what's your experience going against shen solo top? from my side of things (as shen) i've yet to have a problem with sion because vorpal + one ki strike will almost always pop shield (assuming equal levels) and so you burn mana just trying to prevent damage without actually dealing it. and when shield is down i can vorpal harass for an even bigger advantage. you can't trade hits because of the cooldown reduction Ki strike and you can't farm either. have you had this matchup at all?
On February 24 2011 09:52 gtrsrs wrote: smash what's your experience going against shen solo top? from my side of things (as shen) i've yet to have a problem with sion because vorpal + one ki strike will almost always pop shield (assuming equal levels) and so you burn mana just trying to prevent damage without actually dealing it. and when shield is down i can vorpal harass for an even bigger advantage. you can't trade hits because of the cooldown reduction Ki strike and you can't farm either. have you had this matchup at all?
he beat me but that's cause my girlfriend called and i was trying to talk on the phone and i couldn't creep or harass while that was happening, he def didn't raep me snow is better than me anyways against equal players i have yet to lose to sion top tho
On February 24 2011 10:34 Fruscainte wrote: Why the fuck do you people play AP sion? It doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, it's good. I'm not denying that. But in two equally skilled players (assuming both of them are actually fucking good), AD sion trounces everything. His melee normal goes around critting for 800 late game with ridiculous attack speed and life steal, add in his ult and it's just retarded. AP is great early game, and it's harder to play and stay alive with AD. But if you CAN, what the fuck is happening.
Post a picture of me having one bad game (I consider 4-6-15 a fantastic game considering those 15 assists were me helping feed my teammate Shaco so he could solo Baron + Their entire team), showing only 4 games played (DC'd like 2 minutes into WW game, Florida GGstorms v-v) pretty much in the last 5 months to discredit an entire strategy?
Stay classy.
I mean, at least argue legitimate facts here instead of going internet detective on me. Yeah, I don't got a great KD ratio with most of my characters. That doesn't matter. I got a pretty decent WL ratio last time I checked, and I hardly even play anymore due to me not being passionate about a-new-champion-every-2-weeks of Legends due to the massive imbalance that follows.
So, how about you actually argue why AP is better than AD in the hands of a skilled player? Or are you just trying to troll me?
If you played 5 games in 4-5 months, then it's probably not a good idea to by throwing out your opinions out there like it's some sort of dogma. There's a very obvious reason why good Sions in ranked games go AP. Farming wins you games.
No one is going to argue that AD Sion is a beast if he gets farmed but guess what, a farmed Trynd is even more rape. Hard part is actually getting those end game items and not hit like a wet paper towel before then.
There's also the fact that on AD sion you need to be attacking non-stop with your ulti on to be able to survive. This means other team has 0 cc that they are throwing on you... And their ranged carries can't kite you for whatever reason. On Ap sion you blow 2 spells and you're done.
On February 26 2011 13:25 NeoIllusions wrote: If you played 5 games in 4-5 months, then it's probably not a good idea to by throwing out your opinions out there like it's some sort of dogma. There's a very obvious reason why good Sions in ranked games go AP. Farming wins you games.
No one is going to argue that AD Sion is a beast if he gets farmed but guess what, a farmed Trynd is even more rape. Hard part is actually getting those end game items and not hit like a wet paper towel before then.
ad sion only needs a ghostblade! His E gives him huge damage, the ghostblade and his ulti give him 100 % attackspeed. He is much stronger than trynda around those levels. it's super fun playing it, you reach your relative max strength around lvl 10-11 if you got 1-2 kills. 1 wriggles and 1 ghostblade is all you need.
I mained jungle sion for a long time lol, I have like 60-70 games with him.
AD sion is only good for FBing westrice. AP is just infinitely better thanks to his AP ratios and how low his cooldowns are for his 2 nukes. He doesn't really need hp items so you can just go straight AP and nuke even harder. You don't need to rely on sitting there autoattacking and putting yourself in danger of getting kited besides that.
Anyone ever tried hybrid sion? trololol. The way the char is designed it almost looks like he's intended to be an AD but then they gave him good AP ratios so then that indicates he's supposed to be able to do both, turns out AD is terrible. (Despite having like, 50%, 100% lifesteal attack speed+65 damage with level 5 E and R up)
He's like the only champ where you could look for design mechanics for tank, ad, AND AP in a champ.
On February 26 2011 13:18 Fruscainte wrote: Post a picture of me having one bad game (I consider 4-6-15 a fantastic game considering those 15 assists were me helping feed my teammate Shaco so he could solo Baron + Their entire team), showing only 4 games played (DC'd like 2 minutes into WW game, Florida GGstorms v-v) pretty much in the last 5 months to discredit an entire strategy?
Stay classy.
I mean, at least argue legitimate facts here instead of going internet detective on me. Yeah, I don't got a great KD ratio with most of my characters. That doesn't matter. I got a pretty decent WL ratio last time I checked, and I hardly even play anymore due to me not being passionate about a-new-champion-every-2-weeks of Legends due to the massive imbalance that follows.
So, how about you actually argue why AP is better than AD in the hands of a skilled player? Or are you just trying to troll me?
people have pretty much explained it, but it basically boils down to not having a gap closer or any CC reduction, making it pretty much impossible for AD Sion to not get kited to death. Also he's got awful base attack speed and farms considerably worse when building AD than he does building AP.
On February 28 2011 03:41 Slayer91 wrote: Anyone ever tried hybrid sion? trololol. The way the char is designed it almost looks like he's intended to be an AD but then they gave him good AP ratios so then that indicates he's supposed to be able to do both, turns out AD is terrible. (Despite having like, 50%, 100% lifesteal attack speed+65 damage with level 5 E and R up)
He's like the only champ where you could look for design mechanics for tank, ad, AND AP in a champ.
I've trolled some games on my smurf with deathcap -> Phantom Dancer -> tanky and triforce, trolololo. I dunno, there might be some merit to doing crap like this, but it's way harder than just grabbing AP items and 2 shotting people <trundleface>.
for whatever it's worth, I consider Phantom Dancer the most important AD item for Sion. Sion has insane baseline damage from E, so AS and Crit are the most important stats + without a gap closer, he desperately needs the constant movespeed. Ghostblade is probably really close though, they're both great on him.
On February 24 2011 09:52 gtrsrs wrote: smash what's your experience going against shen solo top? from my side of things (as shen) i've yet to have a problem with sion because vorpal + one ki strike will almost always pop shield (assuming equal levels) and so you burn mana just trying to prevent damage without actually dealing it. and when shield is down i can vorpal harass for an even bigger advantage. you can't trade hits because of the cooldown reduction Ki strike and you can't farm either. have you had this matchup at all?
no, we pretty much never put shen on a solo at my elo.
Its gotta be AP. I mean AD works sometimes, in random situations, ok, fuck it, in 500-1400 ELO. But yeah, I just tried the boots of mobility sion mid, and I've got to say; "hats off to you Europeans" the rape i delivered was very satisfying not to mention push lane and gank at the speed of light.
On March 08 2011 11:43 Veene wrote: Its gotta be AP. I mean AD works sometimes, in random situations, ok, fuck it, in 500-1400 ELO. But yeah, I just tried the boots of mobility sion mid, and I've got to say; "hats off to you Europeans" the rape i delivered was very satisfying not to mention push lane and gank at the speed of light.
IF you're 1v2, doran's ring -> Boots -> Deathcap (NLR first) -> Elixer of brilliance as often as possible -> Ionian boots _> (Lichbane (shane first) -> Survival -> ultimate item (usually abyssal sceptor OR will of the ancients -- depends on team). get elixer of brilliance as often s needed to keep it constand and sell doran's ring when necessary. Go go for it.
Can anyone comment on AP vs AD Sion these days? I'm not exactly sure when all the nerfs to his spells kicked in, but from reading the posts it seems like it wasn't too long ago. I tried AP Sion and was thoroughly unimpressed (the early mana consumption is ridiculous), but as AD he seems somewhat reasonable (though farming is a pain and you practically have to get a Force of Nature).
Everybody should try AP sion for at least one solid game. It's the best way to teach misguided players that you can win by outfarming the enemy team rather than stroking your KDA.
Man I remember I was in this 4v5 ranked troll game where I was jungle sion because the trade failed with WW. He went AP and was apparently an expert at jungle sion so he told me to go double zeal. I built a phantom dancer and he was like "NO YOU HAVE TO BUILD 2 ZEALS NOT PD" and I was like "wat???"
AP Sion is underestimated by most players. His early game can be weak because of his small mana pool, but once you get some gear you'll be suicide-bombing your way to victory.
On August 22 2011 14:49 Mylkyjo wrote: AP Sion is underestimated by most players. His early game can be weak because of his small mana pool, but once you get some gear you'll be suicide-bombing your way to victory.
?????
Reading this entire page makes my head explode.
I don't even encounter AD sions at my lvl 20 smurf, unless in a coop vs bots games where everyone trolls with AP shacos and stuff anyway
I've encountered AD Sions, and I've won all but a few games as AD Sion in normal 5v5 (without trolls on either side). That being said, AP seems superior after I retried it- the only real issue is early mana regen is horrible (especially without runes), so if you don't build around that, you can't do anything at all. I also experimented a bit with a hybrid build that incorporates Nashor's Tooth, and while it worked, it seemed a bit lackluster- neither his spells nor his autoattack do enough to really justify it. Although the cooldown reduction is great and allows you to get non-cooldown reduction boots and still have really low cast times.
My hybrid build: 21/0/9 masteries
Doran's Ring Merc Treads Morello's Evil Tome Nashor's Tooth Phantom Dancer Deathcap
With a Force of Nature mixed in somewhere in the beginning/middle to help deal with AP carries. Downside is that until Nashor's Tooth is finished, the cooldown reductions don't stack because they're both from Fiendish Codex (and once you have it, the cooldown reduction from the blue buff is partly redundant- although it's rare you have priority on blue, so whatever- usually just acquire it from kills). And for the 15% magic penetration on the offensive tree you have to get some redundant cooldown reduction.
Not sure what runes are optimal for this build yet, but I suspect attack speed marks, flat mana regen seals, magic resist/level gylphs, and attack speed quints. It's a passable build, but it isn't exactly great by any means considering cooldown reduction boots and the blue buff get you to the 40% max too, or Morello's Evil Tome and blue buff. On the other hand, being able to whack people with enrage always on and at a relatively fast rate significantly increases your autoattack damage. With the ultimate, you can vamp a ton of health.
Hybrid is borderline feasible I think, although it is much easier to just go AP.
before I gave up Sion I was doing a hybrid build that was like, dring -> deathcap -> Atma's + FoN -> PD -> trollface.jpg. I just really hated how poorly AP Sion scaled to late game and so I decided that I was going to go AP to abuse his early game and then just say fuck it and tank out and get PD + Atma's to sit around and smack shit with my ult.
Actually, I'm running a Jungle AD sion with quite a lot of success. ( well, i'm playing at low ELO, so i guess it means that it is viable, not actually good :p )
Standart AD jungler runes/masteries.
Start at small golems (you need a pull if you want to do blue ) with 1 point in shield and vamp scepter ( armor +5 pot is ok too, but i like to heal the damage i take from E). Max E first, so that you hit like a truck (+ 65 AD at lvl 9 wtf ) Max stun 2nd for lower CD.
I'm still toying a bit with the item build. Rigth now i'm build him Trinity -> atma. Feel free to insert a negatron anytime if needed. In team figth, wait for someone to initiate, ult stun kill win. You are usually extremely strong 1v1 early and mid game, but if you get chained CC, you die rally fast.
On September 18 2011 08:03 Tyrran wrote: Actually, I'm running a Jungle AD sion with quite a lot of success. ( well, i'm playing at low ELO, so i guess it means that it is viable, not actually good :p )
Standart AD jungler runes/masteries.
Start at small golems (you need a pull if you want to do blue ) with 1 point in shield and vamp scepter ( armor +5 pot is ok too, but i like to heal the damage i take from E). Max E first, so that you hit like a truck (+ 65 AD at lvl 9 wtf ) Max stun 2nd for lower CD.
I'm still toying a bit with the item build. Rigth now i'm build him Trinity -> atma. Feel free to insert a negatron anytime if needed. In team figth, wait for someone to initiate, ult stun kill win. You are usually extremely strong 1v1 early and mid game, but if you get chained CC, you die rally fast.
that actually seems pretty decent with sion's target stun.
On September 18 2011 08:03 Tyrran wrote: Actually, I'm running a Jungle AD sion with quite a lot of success. ( well, i'm playing at low ELO, so i guess it means that it is viable, not actually good :p )
Standart AD jungler runes/masteries.
Start at small golems (you need a pull if you want to do blue ) with 1 point in shield and vamp scepter ( armor +5 pot is ok too, but i like to heal the damage i take from E). Max E first, so that you hit like a truck (+ 65 AD at lvl 9 wtf ) Max stun 2nd for lower CD.
I'm still toying a bit with the item build. Rigth now i'm build him Trinity -> atma. Feel free to insert a negatron anytime if needed. In team figth, wait for someone to initiate, ult stun kill win. You are usually extremely strong 1v1 early and mid game, but if you get chained CC, you die rally fast.
Shockingly enough, I can vouch for this. Still probably only works at low elo since his jungle speed is painfully slow, but the target stun is killer. Guess it's the same reason Taric jungle works decently.
The only way to play AD sion is to build lich bane and go AP.
Lich Bane / Zhonyas / Abyssal Scepter for a core wins games on Sion. Acquire in an order that is meaningful to your game. Get GA at some point for extra asshole-ness.
Wouldn't an AS page work better if you're starting with scepter? I figure after the buff to his AS, an AS page and starting E in the jungle would be pretty damn effective. I guess I'll have to give it a try...
Sion has been my favorite character for awhile. Since the patch, I feel like his early game is extremely smoothed out. With 2-3 doran's rings, you can really poke your lane basically every chance you get with a Q + W combo whereas before you'd be OOM basically instantly. You actually have a nice mana buffer now. Still has mana issues for sure, but anyone who played Sion pre-patch would know how much smoother he is now.
I've always thought Sion was very strong. Hard CC with basically 2 hard hitting nukes makes him a pretty ridiculous ganker. I like to play him mid lane and instantly kill a creep wave with his W, then run to another lane and gank, and get back to mid in time for the next wave (since instant killing a creep wave gives you a 30 second window to do whatever before the next wave). He really has great presence during the laning phase and can have a great affect on the game without missing out on any farm. And really, that's the kind of stuff that wins solo queue games, so I think he's really good.
Duo queue with another strong CC champion like Annie/Brand/Gragas/Kennen/etc and you'll dominate.
I tried jungle sion starting at blue with cloth 5 pot and cleared the full jungle with 70% health, which let me get a gank off before going back. Seemed to work out pretty well, though I didn't take down my time and I also got a good leash.
On September 21 2011 02:00 Crazazyasian1337 wrote: I tried jungle sion starting at blue with cloth 5 pot and cleared the full jungle with 70% health, which let me get a gank off before going back. Seemed to work out pretty well, though I didn't take down my time and I also got a good leash.
Have been playing jungle sion lately and its pretty decent and fun to play. I run atk speed - reds armor - yellows mres per level - blues armor pen- quints (should throw in few arm pen in reds too tho)
Start with cloth+5 pots. Just start jungle from big wolf before blue spawns then get blue with leash and some damage on it if possible and then if u want u can gank lvl 2. Having 2 seconds stun lvl 2 is amazing and just clear your jungle ganking whenever possible. Basicly i go for wriggles + mercs then rush warmogs and atmas after that or in between it if you really need it throw in negatron ( tho usually you dont need it since having huge amount of hp is pretty effective against any kind of ap burst). having 4k hp mid game is amazing not to mention u deal real damage with ultimate up. After atmogs trinity is good or pdancer tho usually its situational and game ends by then anyway. Level EWEQER or if u level 2 gank then EQWEE then R>E>Q>W.
I totaly disagree with sion not being dps champ u get hudge dmg buff with e and more and more hp. In early game he kinda suck but if you get warthmog atma and then just spam fantom dancers u kill anything u have like 4k hp 230dmg as of 2.1 with ult 100% lifesteal 2 second stun shield and with red nobody ever tun from you. Someone tell me if this is not ultimate ad carry. Only problem is really fed vayne and kog but even then after 30 minute in game i think nobody can kill him. Just need to get there thats a bit hard
On September 21 2011 17:37 Hexagecz wrote: I totaly disagree with sion not being dps champ u get hudge dmg buff with e and more and more hp. In early game he kinda suck but if you get warthmog atma and then just spam fantom dancers u kill anything u have like 4k hp 230dmg as of 2.1 with ult 100% lifesteal 2 second stun shield and with red nobody ever tun from you. Someone tell me if this is not ultimate ad carry. Only problem is really fed vayne and kog but even then after 30 minute in game i think nobody can kill him. Just need to get there thats a bit hard
Decent people will shit on you early on and deny any farming whatsoever. Besides, even if you are farmed, people just kite you to death.
On September 21 2011 17:37 Hexagecz wrote: I totaly disagree with sion not being dps champ u get hudge dmg buff with e and more and more hp. In early game he kinda suck but if you get warthmog atma and then just spam fantom dancers u kill anything u have like 4k hp 230dmg as of 2.1 with ult 100% lifesteal 2 second stun shield and with red nobody ever tun from you. Someone tell me if this is not ultimate ad carry. Only problem is really fed vayne and kog but even then after 30 minute in game i think nobody can kill him. Just need to get there thats a bit hard
Decent people will shit on you early on and deny any farming whatsoever. Besides, even if you are farmed, people just kite you to death.
You need to pick right lane not vs 2 ranged and you farm ok vs 2 melee with stun and enrage on lvl2 u have 100dmg also i take flash and exhaust so u get some early kills vs ranged carry u attack 4 times and hes dead. With kitting i want to see you kite me with 498ms and red buff, exhaust,stun
well jungling is pretty good since pve cant beat u (usually) and 2 seconds stun is pretty op i would say for ganks. EDIT: 1.5 sec stun (thats exactly what i meant freelander)
In the end, AP sion is playable at any level. He may not be top knotch amazing pick no.1, but he's playable. AD sion on the other hand makes the team counter him (possible in a lot of ways, but still they have to do it). AD sion can be strong, but only if the other team makes the mistake of not doing anything to stop that.
I've been running jungle sion since I was first able to, tried out a fair few combos with him, and personally ended up with the following: Runes: (Clear time: 4:35) Quints - 2x Move Speed, 1x Health Red - 9x ArmorPen Yellow - 9x Armor Blue - Flat MR, MR/L, attack speed, up to you. Speed Runes: (Clear time: 4:20) Quints - 2x ArmorPen, 1x Flat AD Red - 5x Flat AD, 4x ArmorPen Yellow - 9x Armor Blue - 9x AS
Masteries: 20/0/10 (those buff durations are too sexy to pass up)
Summoners: Ghost/Smite. Personally I run Ghost on both AD and AP Sion, find the positioning a lot more useful over the duration of a whole fight compared to just one flash for an initial stun. Both have their positives, but for AD jungle Sion, definately ghost.
Route: Golems > Wraiths > Wolves > Blue - B (boots+ward) > Red Skill order: W > E > E > Q
The mana buff helped him by letting him get another shield off in his first run combo, allowing you to take 2hp+ward+cloth if you really wanted to and survive blue still. It's a trade off though because you end up a lot more easily ganked on blue if you go like this, but 5hp+cloth gives you basically full health the whole route.
Generally I build him: Cloth +5 HP > Boots +ward > Lantern > Lvl 2 boots (almost always Mercs) > Zeal > Phantom > Phage > Zeal > TF > BV. Sounds stupidly counterintuitive stacking attack speed so much and it's actually worse DPS than going for a IE or Black Cleaver, but the zeals come early. And the movement speed is AMAZING. As I said before and as has been said a hundred times in this thread, kiting him is the worst thing ever. Ghost obviously helps, but phantom on Sion with phage is just so good for keeping someone near you to life steal from during your ulti time... If I'm having trouble with getting AP nuked (more common than AD nuked obviously, but the armor seals and lantern usually help with this enough) I'll usually get an early Negatron, or if it's a lot of CC as well as AP heavy then QSS.
Sion isn't a strong early game hero. He can be given jungle farm, gank an overextended lane, provide 'some' map control, and is hard to gank post-6, plus the idea of a roaming stunner is always scary for the other team, but ultimately he doesn't have a specific strength. There are better gankers, there are better map controllers, there are better farmers. If you're looking for an AD bruiser or late game carry, there are other choices that can use jungle better. That said, a late game AD Sion can definately bring the hurt against a whole team very decently even if not 'fed' from earlier. He isn't an engager, but he definately can not be ignored in a team fight. This is a positive thing if you have a hard carry on your team that you can peel for, stun for, and just generally chew up the agro from the fact you are unbelievably hard to take down while your ulti and ghost are up.
yea it's pretty stupid to pass up the 4% more damage. if you do that, then you should at least take some more points from offense and add more to utility, improved move speed is probably worth more than improved crit damage
I don't get your route either, starting blue is much better generally if you can afford it. And sion definitely can. With your route your team gets its second blue much later, which can lead to a disadvantage. you don't need flat AD at all because of your E. You should switch the flat AD runes with arpen. Start with E and not shield if you want speed.
When I do my blue -----> double golems route I generally finish quite fast , under 3:50, with a lot of hp.
His passive on averages blocks 12 damage of every autoattack he gets, that's huge.
He is real fun 1 v 5 hero in stomp games.
Ghostblade is really strong on him. Also this guy can easily solo dragon at lvl 6. And faster than others.
I didn't want come off as condescending or anything, these are just my opinions.
I have been doing alot of ad jungle sion lately as well. My runes are similar to all of yours besides my quints being attack speed. I have been going straight for vamp scepter instead of the cloth armor+pots and doing a wolves-wraiths-golems-b-blue to golems route.
Ad sion is also my favorite dominion champ. Able to go beastmode fairly often and I switched to cleanse exhaust lately just because if im not ccd im winning the fight basically.
ive been a really casual player that just likes to try new champions and fool around against bots. but recently I have wanted to start playing specific characters and deviate from the suggested builds that they give you in game.
one question that I have is if my build that I recently made is viable at all against real players.
I usually go: amplifying tome/health potion at beginning -> mejai's soulstealer sorcerers shoes archangel's staff robadon's deathcap void staff
obviously this is basically a straight up AP build. would this work against real people or is it beyond retarded? also, does the magic penetration stack from the void staff and the sorcerers shoes?
well my thought process behind going soulstealer first is that it is relatively cheap (after I use up my first 475 on the amplifying tome, its only 800 to upgrade to the soulstealer), and gives me time to build up some stacks over the course of the game...the sooner that the 15% cooldown reduction kicks in the better. 20x8+20=180 ability power if I can stack enough early
also, does anyone know if the 15% cooldown with the utility mastery point stacks with the items you get in game?
On November 10 2011 04:41 ishboh wrote: ive been a really casual player that just likes to try new champions and fool around against bots. but recently I have wanted to start playing specific characters and deviate from the suggested builds that they give you in game.
one question that I have is if my build that I recently made is viable at all against real players.
I usually go: amplifying tome/health potion at beginning -> mejai's soulstealer sorcerers shoes archangel's staff robadon's deathcap void staff
obviously this is basically a straight up AP build. would this work against real people or is it beyond retarded? also, does the magic penetration stack from the void staff and the sorcerers shoes?
typically deathcap is before AA, most ppl dont go soulstealer, but w/e, its up to you. Sorc shoes and void sorta kinda stack, but the %pen on void comes before the flat pen on sorcs. Also ppl usually get a lichbane somewhere in there, or optionally a dfg, basically just as a 3rd nuke.
edit: i think the 15% pen on masteries does indeed stack with the %pen on voidstaff. reduction is applied first, then % pen, then flat pen (i think)
On November 10 2011 04:41 ishboh wrote: ive been a really casual player that just likes to try new champions and fool around against bots. but recently I have wanted to start playing specific characters and deviate from the suggested builds that they give you in game.
one question that I have is if my build that I recently made is viable at all against real players.
I usually go: amplifying tome/health potion at beginning -> mejai's soulstealer sorcerers shoes archangel's staff robadon's deathcap void staff
obviously this is basically a straight up AP build. would this work against real people or is it beyond retarded? also, does the magic penetration stack from the void staff and the sorcerers shoes?
It's an okay build, just very sub-optimal. You really don't want archangels on sion.
My usual sion build:
boots+3 pots into dorans ring+deathcap is pretty much the only core. Next follow up items are: void staff dfg lichbane qss
On November 10 2011 04:41 ishboh wrote: ive been a really casual player that just likes to try new champions and fool around against bots. but recently I have wanted to start playing specific characters and deviate from the suggested builds that they give you in game.
one question that I have is if my build that I recently made is viable at all against real players.
I usually go: amplifying tome/health potion at beginning -> mejai's soulstealer sorcerers shoes archangel's staff robadon's deathcap void staff
obviously this is basically a straight up AP build. would this work against real people or is it beyond retarded? also, does the magic penetration stack from the void staff and the sorcerers shoes?
You're relying on not dying AND getting kills with effectively no items for your first 1235 gold except for 20 AP (barely more than what you get from dorans, but without health & mp5) and 1 potion. Not viable vs real players, because you can't guarantee that you're better than they are.
There may be times that you may decide that you can pick up a soulstealer, but often times, if you're doing really well early, putting a similar amount of money into a Needlessly Large Rod to rush your deathcap will actually help you snowball harder (because you have more power when you buy the item), with less risk of your snowballing getting interrupted by dying, or shut down late game if/when the enemy team finally takes you down. Don't underestimate the snowball potential of Doran's into Deathcap rush, just because it doesn't have snowball items in it doesnt mean it's not a build designed to snowball.
Remember that a mejais is a giant goldsink until you get ~6-8 stacks in it, when it catches up to NLR in cost-efficiency. It doesn't catch up to deathcap til even later. And 15% CDR shouldn't be that important to you, blue buff is your friend!!
Sion's always been pretty good, but a few patches ago he got some gigantic buffs (+55 Level 1 Mana / +300 level 18 Mana, +1.25 MR/Level, +5 Movement Speed) and he's become the same force he's always been but faster!
On November 11 2011 04:41 Mogwai wrote: Why is no one just flat out telling this guy that Archangel's staff is bad on Sion? =\ I am disappoint.
Cause someone already said AA staff is terrible on sion.
It's terrible on a lot of casters. Dorans rings / runes can handle the mana requirements of anyone except for a few GIGANTIC MANA WHORES. Blue buff allows most casters except the aforementioned whores to spam all their skills forever. Sion has somewhat long CDs and not the most expensive spells, he's in this category. Don't get a tear. It will take him FOREVER to fill it, even longer of a forever if you don't stun a something on CD every CD (which you won't, cause then you'll get rolled for always having your stun on CD)
Even on champs that like tear and build it early, AA staff isn't generally a good first AP item.
On November 11 2011 07:15 Niton wrote: Sion's always been pretty good, but a few patches ago he got some gigantic buffs (+55 Level 1 Mana / +300 level 18 Mana, +1.25 MR/Level, +5 Movement Speed) and he's become the same force he's always been but faster!
I think it's also cause people started putting Sion mid as opposed to top where a good amount of bruisers just completely poop on him whereas Sion can beat a lot of APs
On November 11 2011 07:15 Niton wrote: Sion's always been pretty good, but a few patches ago he got some gigantic buffs (+55 Level 1 Mana / +300 level 18 Mana, +1.25 MR/Level, +5 Movement Speed) and he's become the same force he's always been but faster!
I think it's also cause people started putting Sion mid as opposed to top where a good amount of bruisers just completely poop on him whereas Sion can beat a lot of APs
On November 11 2011 07:15 Niton wrote: Sion's always been pretty good, but a few patches ago he got some gigantic buffs (+55 Level 1 Mana / +300 level 18 Mana, +1.25 MR/Level, +5 Movement Speed) and he's become the same force he's always been but faster!
I think it's also cause people started putting Sion mid as opposed to top where a good amount of bruisers just completely poop on him whereas Sion can beat a lot of APs
I think he got super popular for a few reasons:
-Kass and Morgana became super popular AP mid carries recently. Kass after his buffs which enabled him to shit on other casters like he's designed to do, and Morg because she's just crazy strong all game. Turns out that sion a pretty effective counter to both of them. He may not be able to kill them, but bam, blow up the whole creep wave and go gank somewhere, forcing morg to clear the wave and especially kass whom struggles to to finish creepwaves effectively.
-At the IPL sion showed up in numerous games absolutely wrecking shit. People saw that and were like "oman i gotta try it"
Then after people started trying him in those specific situations, they realized "o holy shit he kinda poops on every caster", and he's just exploded in popularity from there.
That said though I've actually been having a lot of success defeating him mid as Swain. You might not be able to stop him from 1-shotting the creep wave, but you *will* inflict more damage to him than he can to you just about every time.
Swain shits on Sion. Sion might be able to farm somewhat decently if he turns on his shield from afar and pops it once into creep range but he should never attempt to pop shield near Swain. Swain EQ too stronk, bird should have lane control.
On November 15 2011 00:38 Butterednuts wrote: Been seeing Sion way more now that he's about to be nerfed. Stupid FotM.
What? Not him TOO QQ
I've been rolling AD sion in solo (not arranged). Usually open ninja tabis because I'm low level and people never know who to focus, but I've been thinking of getting a thornmail first instead. Then I get a ghostblade and try to increase my crit rate since I have 100% lifesteal from his ult at level 16, 100% attack speed from his ult and ghostblade, and +100 attack damage from his E at level 5 and the ghostblade. Really an infinity edge is all that I think I need for additional attack damage.
For summoners I've been considering cleanse and flash since cleanse allows sion to not get ccd down while he's lifestealing from enemy squishies.
Just charge in and kill enemies one at a time, but never charge in to stupid fights. Sion seems to beat warwicks on dominion, and he seems to work well on TT, and he can do a bit of harass on Summoners, but I think he's definitely weakest like this on SR.
This probably won't work at a high level.
edit: theoretically I could trade infinity for something more tanky. or maybe even a last whisper. He doesn't seem like he needs too many items to do well so he can pick and choose as he sees fit.
Despite about what people say about solo queue being the reason sion is strong I always see him be very, very effective when he's playing in arranged teams.
I like seeing him. Hate playing against him, but he's good for the game. He encourages a bit of roaming, which makes for fun matches on both teams. I like that most Sion players have him run around and cause chaos, it breaks up the "sit in lane for 15 minutes" humdrum that takes over sometimes.
On November 15 2011 00:38 Butterednuts wrote: Been seeing Sion way more now that he's about to be nerfed. Stupid FotM.
What? Not him TOO QQ
I've been rolling AD sion in solo (not arranged). Usually open ninja tabis because I'm low level and people never know who to focus, but I've been thinking of getting a thornmail first instead. Then I get a ghostblade and try to increase my crit rate since I have 100% lifesteal from his ult at level 16, 100% attack speed from his ult and ghostblade, and +100 attack damage from his E at level 5 and the ghostblade. Really an infinity edge is all that I think I need for additional attack damage.
For summoners I've been considering cleanse and flash since cleanse allows sion to not get ccd down while he's lifestealing from enemy squishies.
Just charge in and kill enemies one at a time, but never charge in to stupid fights. Sion seems to beat warwicks on dominion, and he seems to work well on TT, and he can do a bit of harass on Summoners, but I think he's definitely weakest like this on SR.
This probably won't work at a high level.
edit: theoretically I could trade infinity for something more tanky. or maybe even a last whisper. He doesn't seem like he needs too many items to do well so he can pick and choose as he sees fit.
Does this really work? I think building him AD doesn't make use of his skillset at all and there are many other champions with natural AD ability that seem better suited to tanky DPS. Is the only reason you do this for the Lifesteal on his Ult?
On November 15 2011 00:38 Butterednuts wrote: Been seeing Sion way more now that he's about to be nerfed. Stupid FotM.
What? Not him TOO QQ
I've been rolling AD sion in solo (not arranged). Usually open ninja tabis because I'm low level and people never know who to focus, but I've been thinking of getting a thornmail first instead. Then I get a ghostblade and try to increase my crit rate since I have 100% lifesteal from his ult at level 16, 100% attack speed from his ult and ghostblade, and +100 attack damage from his E at level 5 and the ghostblade. Really an infinity edge is all that I think I need for additional attack damage.
For summoners I've been considering cleanse and flash since cleanse allows sion to not get ccd down while he's lifestealing from enemy squishies.
Just charge in and kill enemies one at a time, but never charge in to stupid fights. Sion seems to beat warwicks on dominion, and he seems to work well on TT, and he can do a bit of harass on Summoners, but I think he's definitely weakest like this on SR.
This probably won't work at a high level.
edit: theoretically I could trade infinity for something more tanky. or maybe even a last whisper. He doesn't seem like he needs too many items to do well so he can pick and choose as he sees fit.
Does this really work? I think building him AD doesn't make use of his skillset at all and there are many other champions with natural AD ability that seem better suited to tanky DPS. Is the only reason you do this for the Lifesteal on his Ult?
I'm new to sion, and to the game in general, but I feel it works for me. Yes I do AD simply because of his ultimate. It's a nice steroid and it provides a lot of lifesteal. More than any other ability in the game. If he wins the fight or drives the enemy away, he gets himself back to full.
I personally don't understand why everyone thinks Sion is so great AP. He needs to get in close to unleash his 1:1 ratio skills. And if you need to get close, he will die due to his squishiness. If you build for survivability, you can't use his ap scaling ratio.
I think riot designed sion's skillset with him being AD in mind, so I don't understand what you mean by "doesn't make use of his skillset". His stun lets him catch enemies, his shield lets him get in close, he gets a flat attack damage ability, and his ult also scales with AD. I'd say his skillset wasn't designed for AP.
AP Sion is not squishy. His shield scales with AP, he has Feel No Pain, and usually defensive masteries and runes. Not to mention he farms like a champ and gets free HP from that. His shield getting popped before it explodes is the real issue, and you can work around that.
On November 15 2011 00:38 Butterednuts wrote: Been seeing Sion way more now that he's about to be nerfed. Stupid FotM.
What? Not him TOO QQ
I've been rolling AD sion in solo (not arranged). Usually open ninja tabis because I'm low level and people never know who to focus, but I've been thinking of getting a thornmail first instead. Then I get a ghostblade and try to increase my crit rate since I have 100% lifesteal from his ult at level 16, 100% attack speed from his ult and ghostblade, and +100 attack damage from his E at level 5 and the ghostblade. Really an infinity edge is all that I think I need for additional attack damage.
For summoners I've been considering cleanse and flash since cleanse allows sion to not get ccd down while he's lifestealing from enemy squishies.
Just charge in and kill enemies one at a time, but never charge in to stupid fights. Sion seems to beat warwicks on dominion, and he seems to work well on TT, and he can do a bit of harass on Summoners, but I think he's definitely weakest like this on SR.
This probably won't work at a high level.
edit: theoretically I could trade infinity for something more tanky. or maybe even a last whisper. He doesn't seem like he needs too many items to do well so he can pick and choose as he sees fit.
Does this really work? I think building him AD doesn't make use of his skillset at all and there are many other champions with natural AD ability that seem better suited to tanky DPS. Is the only reason you do this for the Lifesteal on his Ult?
I'm new to sion, and to the game in general, but I feel it works for me. Yes I do AD simply because of his ultimate. It's a nice steroid and it provides a lot of lifesteal. More than any other ability in the game. If he wins the fight or drives the enemy away, he gets himself back to full.
I personally don't understand why everyone thinks Sion is so great AP. He needs to get in close to unleash his 1:1 ratio skills. And if you need to get close, he will die due to his squishiness. If you build for survivability, you can't use his ap scaling ratio.
I think riot designed sion's skillset with him being AD in mind, so I don't understand what you mean by "doesn't make use of his skillset". His stun lets him catch enemies, his shield lets him get in close, he gets a flat attack damage ability, and his ult also scales with AD. I'd say his skillset wasn't designed for AP.
Sion isn't squishy. Late game he has easy >3k hp if you are decent at last hitting. Additionally, his shield provides ~500hp. The reason he is so strong is because of his burst dmg. DFG + Q + W + ignite will almost instantly kill any squishy champ.
I've started playing him today going AD and he's quite strong, I managed to steal all the last hits in our lane and my lane partner only had 9 when I had 80 but we got a bunch of kills so he was fine with it
Is it better to build damage on him first or attack speed? I tend to go Greaves > vamp sceptre > PD > IE > Atmas, might have to try ap sometime though. Has anyone tried hybrid on him (or just ap but with an atmas)?
Why would you duo lane an ad sion when ap sion mid is ridiculously scary and can't be handled by a bunch of standard AP mids?
Level shield, zone enemy , stun him if he comes in range, blow up shield (and creep wave, and enemy), run to either top or bottom lane and gank, or go do dragon with your ultimate.
Yeeh. It's true. Just tried AP sion again and he is really really strong. There was this really good annie player who didn't lose lane to me, but every other game today, I felt I won my lane considerably well and helped my allies carry by ganking for them too. At least 3 games the other team tried to say to report their mid for intentional feeding. Even won a 4v5 where pantheon dced at lvl 3.
The annie just stayed out of my stun range. I think annie players have to be confident in their skills since they willingfully have no range. That's basically the trick to beating sion. Stay out of his range (move speed boots). Get some MR. And don't let him roam. Every AP scales better than him. Sion isn't tanky either... once his shield blows up, he does too.
I really don't like sion though. I feel like he's a retard champion. Maybe I think this because Reginald plays him. Sion doesn't need to aim and he gets large amounts of damage reduction and a stun to help him escape. When I play bruiser sion in top lane, he gets to zone people out as he pleases because even if he loses a trade, he can press R and get back to full. I feel naughty for playing sion.
TBH, I don't think I lost one game as AP sion today.
Scary ganks early. But no more so than other niche junglers like panth Ali taric. Play it if you really like playing sion. but there's plenty of others who are stronger in similar areas who also bring more in other areas. Iirc lexvink has a good jungle sion, ask him for pointers (he has a thread here)
I don't know how you guys feel about this, but to me AD Sion is not half as bad as ppl claim it to be. Just rolled a few games with him either going dorans blade or vampiric scepter first, to berserk boots, phantom dancer, infinity edge. Bonus from then on, bloodthirster and situational items like cleaver, quicksilver sash or warmogs. I feel like you have a pretty strong early game and deal ridiculous amounts of damage and get super meaty when you care for your E. The cool thing with AD Sion to me is that you can heal up ultra fast and don't have to rely on your skills to deal damage. I simply don't get the hang with AP Sion, dunno must be me...
I randomed Sion against some nubs and tried building SotD (Sword of the Divine since other newbs might not remember this acronym). The item probably isn't cost effective in the long run and I was fed, but there were many situations where I'd rather have burst damage and heal over sustained damage and heal considering how fast Sion dies and how fast fights go. SotD provided that.
Also I think Tiamat and Hydra provide AoE lifesteal at 50% efficiency now. I't s a sizeable increase to Sion's lifesteal when he's hitting multiple people.
It may just be better to swap out those two for IE PD though.
Responded to Requizens post on jungle Sion in TROLLS, and it turned out like a mini guide so I figured probably best to post it here.
On February 08 2013 23:56 Requizen wrote: I'm not sure if AD Sion sucked or if my team was throwing really hard. I did it in the jungle, which turned out pretty good . Safe, fast clear even with E max, got first blood because even without burst your stun ganks are pretty strong. However, I wasn't sure what to be building. I tried kind of tanky items, going Atma's and Phage + Blet, with a Negatron for the Akali that was running rampant, and I was doing a pretty decent amount of damage until the fed Akali and and Fiddle started running rampant.
Perhaps I should have skipped that Atma's and Negatron, going straight FMallet and maybe something like Hydra or Zephyr. Perhaps I should have upgraded my Machete as well. Single target clear speed felt fast enough that I didn't really want for Razor/Wriggle, but Elder Lizard seems pretty good with AD/CDR/true damage. Maybe not Ancient Golem, since I'd likely be getting FMallet and have E for health.
Still not sure about his carrying potential, even Volibear feels stronger as a jungler to me, but it's possible that I just haven't hit the right item build/skill build/mastery/rune setup yet.
And no more AP Sion testing, that playstyle is totally balls.
I've played a fair bit of jungle AD Sion this patch and I figured I'd share my thoughts.
There are a few obvious pros to it. Amazing ganks. Point and click stun out of the jungle is amazing if the follow up is even remotely decent. I've won several games purely by getting lanes fed beyond redemption. "Safe" early game (in comparison to AD Sion top). You're surprisingly resilient against early invasion with your stun, shield and steroid. The better jungle duelists have you covered, but Sion is good at stalling until help arrives at which point your stun becomes the perfect initiation. Most junglers haven't bothered invading me. Better sustain than expected. His passive does an incredible amount of work here. He obviously has no innate sustain, but pots/ls quints and masteries go a lot further than you would expect. Great base stats (with one glaring exception) and downright amazing steroids. More of a general AD Sion strength.
Cons include Slower ramp up. I like to think of AD Sion as a ticking time bomb. There's a farm/cs threshold that he passes where the game is virtually won by virtue of him being near impossible to handle. Fewer creeps and less gold make this threshold come later in the jungle, though it is still achievable. He's a "farmer" that really should gank. Similar to Nasus in a lot of ways. You have an unquenchable thirst for farm but a kit strongly suited to ganking. Focusing on one neglects the other. Luckily (and unlike Nasus) the stun is a one point wonder, and a R>E>W>Q skill order is an easy decision. He's a right click carry with abhorrent attack speed. Not much to say here. His BAT and AS/lvl is terrible which makes AS items inefficient but necessary.
I build Machete/defense boots (usually mercs for the tenacity)/phage/zeal as core. I havent gotten razors but they probably would be a good idea. Next item is tricky. You tend to be most effective in teamfights peeling for your adc (diving back lines leaves you vulnerable to kiting), so you need to be able to kill bruisers. If you can get IE before there is much armor on the field it's nearly auto win, however in practice by the time teamfights start rolling around there's usually enough armor around to make LW a priority buy. After that I finish PD, Mallet and IE with the order changing depending on how the game is going. I don't think I've ever finished a 6th item on jungle Sion as a 3.5k HP juggernaut with ADC strength right clicks and a targetable stun tends to finish games off quickly. Last item would probably be Mogs, Hydra, Atmas or even Yoummu but I haven't given it a ton of testing obviously.
I run 2ls 1ms quints/AS reds/armor yellows/scaling mr blues. Masteries are 9/9/12, taking ls and buff duration in utility. Basically I prioritize lifesteal with runes and masteries because I take none in my build and it does help him stay healthy in the jungle.
I really think he's a strong, if situational jungler. If you need a tanky/support jungle there are obviously better options, but if you need some extra damage his early ganks spiral a game out of control with reasonable regularity, while he's still turning into that late game monster AD Sion has trademarked.
On February 13 2013 16:58 Amarok wrote: Responded to Requizens post on jungle Sion in TROLLS, and it turned out like a mini guide so I figured probably best to post it here.
On February 08 2013 23:56 Requizen wrote: I'm not sure if AD Sion sucked or if my team was throwing really hard. I did it in the jungle, which turned out pretty good . Safe, fast clear even with E max, got first blood because even without burst your stun ganks are pretty strong. However, I wasn't sure what to be building. I tried kind of tanky items, going Atma's and Phage + Blet, with a Negatron for the Akali that was running rampant, and I was doing a pretty decent amount of damage until the fed Akali and and Fiddle started running rampant.
Perhaps I should have skipped that Atma's and Negatron, going straight FMallet and maybe something like Hydra or Zephyr. Perhaps I should have upgraded my Machete as well. Single target clear speed felt fast enough that I didn't really want for Razor/Wriggle, but Elder Lizard seems pretty good with AD/CDR/true damage. Maybe not Ancient Golem, since I'd likely be getting FMallet and have E for health.
Still not sure about his carrying potential, even Volibear feels stronger as a jungler to me, but it's possible that I just haven't hit the right item build/skill build/mastery/rune setup yet.
And no more AP Sion testing, that playstyle is totally balls.
I've played a fair bit of jungle AD Sion this patch and I figured I'd share my thoughts.
There are a few obvious pros to it. Amazing ganks. Point and click stun out of the jungle is amazing if the follow up is even remotely decent. I've won several games purely by getting lanes fed beyond redemption. "Safe" early game (in comparison to AD Sion top). You're surprisingly resilient against early invasion with your stun, shield and steroid. The better jungle duelists have you covered, but Sion is good at stalling until help arrives at which point your stun becomes the perfect initiation. Most junglers haven't bothered invading me. Better sustain than expected. His passive does an incredible amount of work here. He obviously has no innate sustain, but pots/ls quints and masteries go a lot further than you would expect. Great base stats (with one glaring exception) and downright amazing steroids. More of a general AD Sion strength.
Cons include Slower ramp up. I like to think of AD Sion as a ticking time bomb. There's a farm/cs threshold that he passes where the game is virtually won by virtue of him being near impossible to handle. Fewer creeps and less gold make this threshold come later in the jungle, though it is still achievable. He's a "farmer" that really should gank. Similar to Nasus in a lot of ways. You have an unquenchable thirst for farm but a kit strongly suited to ganking. Focusing on one neglects the other. Luckily (and unlike Nasus) the stun is a one point wonder, and a R>E>W>Q skill order is an easy decision. He's a right click carry with abhorrent attack speed. Not much to say here. His BAT and AS/lvl is terrible which makes AS items inefficient but necessary.
I build Machete/defense boots (usually mercs for the tenacity)/phage/zeal as core. I havent gotten razors but they probably would be a good idea. Next item is tricky. You tend to be most effective in teamfights peeling for your adc (diving back lines leaves you vulnerable to kiting), so you need to be able to kill bruisers. If you can get IE before there is much armor on the field it's nearly auto win, however in practice by the time teamfights start rolling around there's usually enough armor around to make LW a priority buy. After that I finish PD, Mallet and IE with the order changing depending on how the game is going. I don't think I've ever finished a 6th item on jungle Sion as a 3.5k HP juggernaut with ADC strength right clicks and a targetable stun tends to finish games off quickly. Last item would probably be Mogs, Hydra, Atmas or even Yoummu but I haven't given it a ton of testing obviously.
I run 2ls 1ms quints/AS reds/armor yellows/scaling mr blues. Masteries are 9/9/12, taking ls and buff duration in utility. Basically I prioritize lifesteal with runes and masteries because I take none in my build and it does help him stay healthy in the jungle.
I really think he's a strong, if situational jungler. If you need a tanky/support jungle there are obviously better options, but if you need some extra damage his early ganks spiral a game out of control with reasonable regularity, while he's still turning into that late game monster AD Sion has trademarked.
disclaimer: played AP Sion mostly in S2. Have not played him as much in S3 as AD or AP. I believe I am one of the few people who enjoys playing AP Sion mid. That style involves abusing your passive and W to last hit while looking for opportunities to Qs and blow up your lane opponent with Q+W combo or help via ganks. However you were most scary with lvls 5-9, your have some lvls in W and have backed to buy mobo boots to roam. Roaming and hard burst with Point and Click stun is the strength of AP Sion, and the same applies in your experiences with Jungle Sion. You are just jungling to roam. Also that E steroid is amazing.
When AD Sion jungle further, I found I had 2 issues.
1) I was leveling E for the steroid and health boost, but because of that I felt my clear times were slower and my W was useless. I almost didn't even use it because it would get popped and I'd just lifesteal back any damage I took anyway. Perhaps leveling W would be more prudent, if just for safer/faster clearing and a bit more burst in ganks.
2) Like you said, he's torn between farming and ganking. In a game where I didn't get a lot of kills/assists, but had to gank to save lanes, I was useless outside of my stun because I had no damage or utility. I just don't think there's a place for a full farm jungler in solo queue, where people rely on the jungler to more or less hold their hand for most of the early/mid game, when you want to be clearing as much as possible. Maybe in arranged 5s, or when I'm higher ELO and people can hold their lanes without intervention.
On February 14 2013 00:29 Requizen wrote: When AD Sion jungle further, I found I had 2 issues.
1) I was leveling E for the steroid and health boost, but because of that I felt my clear times were slower and my W was useless. I almost didn't even use it because it would get popped and I'd just lifesteal back any damage I took anyway. Perhaps leveling W would be more prudent, if just for safer/faster clearing and a bit more burst in ganks.
2) Like you said, he's torn between farming and ganking. In a game where I didn't get a lot of kills/assists, but had to gank to save lanes, I was useless outside of my stun because I had no damage or utility. I just don't think there's a place for a full farm jungler in solo queue, where people rely on the jungler to more or less hold their hand for most of the early/mid game, when you want to be clearing as much as possible. Maybe in arranged 5s, or when I'm higher ELO and people can hold their lanes without intervention.
I wouldn't think prioritizing W would be better. You get more single target damage out of E and given the monster HP distribution I think you'd notice the weaker steroid. There's also the issue of ramp up time. Sion needs HP from his E to be able to build predominantly damage and not simply explode in teamfights. I could see an extra level in W pre 6 being useful if you were worried about a burst coming out of an invade, but I'd definitely want to have 5 levels in E by level 9. In mid game skirmishes/dragon fights you get more mileage out of the steroid and your ult so I'd want it as high level as possible.
As I said I didn't get razors, but if your worried about clear speed I'd definitely recommend it. I'd always avoided it because of his awful attack speed without items, and a desperation for 2boots, phage and zeal. This would also help the whole gank or farm problem as quicker farming leaves you with more ganking time.
If your lanes are losing, presumably you're able to hold a lane and tax without pushing. Sion looooves this. Every cs gets him slightly closer to that juggernaut stage we're aiming for.
I'm going to try jungling Sion with the typical tank, high cdr build. With 40% cdr he's got a 31% uptime on his stun... It would be interesting to have him go for a elder golem, IBG, mobil boots, bulwark build. Has anybody tried this, or have any insight? Obviously his engage is trash, but I think that he'd prove to be pretty disruptive, and maybe his goofy 200 range heal could be somewhat useful. I mean, everybody is used to focusing the dude.
On July 12 2013 00:02 canucks12 wrote: I'm going to try jungling Sion with the typical tank, high cdr build. With 40% cdr he's got a 31% uptime on his stun... It would be interesting to have him go for a elder golem, IBG, mobil boots, bulwark build. Has anybody tried this, or have any insight? Obviously his engage is trash, but I think that he'd prove to be pretty disruptive, and maybe his goofy 200 range heal could be somewhat useful. I mean, everybody is used to focusing the dude.
Might not be a bad idea. IBG would help his disgusting mana costs, but I think you'd still have issues there. You're just a lump of course, but perhaps tons of stun is worth using a champion spot.
I just really like taking advantage of the free stats he gets. For that money you could (nearly) have a Phage/Zeal/LW/IE/Mercs and about 2000-2200 hp (at a guess) and be a seriously scary skeleton.
On July 12 2013 00:02 canucks12 wrote: I'm going to try jungling Sion with the typical tank, high cdr build. With 40% cdr he's got a 31% uptime on his stun... It would be interesting to have him go for a elder golem, IBG, mobil boots, bulwark build. Has anybody tried this, or have any insight? Obviously his engage is trash, but I think that he'd prove to be pretty disruptive, and maybe his goofy 200 range heal could be somewhat useful. I mean, everybody is used to focusing the dude.
Might not be a bad idea. IBG would help his disgusting mana costs, but I think you'd still have issues there. You're just a lump of course, but perhaps tons of stun is worth using a champion spot.
I just really like taking advantage of the free stats he gets. For that money you could (nearly) have a Phage/Zeal/LW/IE/Mercs and about 2000-2200 hp (at a guess) and be a seriously scary skeleton.
Interested to hear how you go with it.
It's been really difficult. If you max your e first, it gets really hard to gank, and if you don't, it doesn't buff your health much.
I still think that he can be strong given certain circumstances, but if you build items slightly out of order, you're pretty useless. Get any number of kills and you're ridiculously strong though.
The heal on his ult doesn't really make it useful when building tank though, so it's sort of a wasted skill... that takes an ult slot.
If your top+mid and/or support are heavy divers, I think that sion can be very valuable, but otherwise there are far better champs. If somebody initiates for your team he'll be good and if your team gets initiated on he can peel well, but if its a poke comp he's essentially useless on either team.
On July 12 2013 00:02 canucks12 wrote: I'm going to try jungling Sion with the typical tank, high cdr build. With 40% cdr he's got a 31% uptime on his stun... It would be interesting to have him go for a elder golem, IBG, mobil boots, bulwark build. Has anybody tried this, or have any insight? Obviously his engage is trash, but I think that he'd prove to be pretty disruptive, and maybe his goofy 200 range heal could be somewhat useful. I mean, everybody is used to focusing the dude.
Might not be a bad idea. IBG would help his disgusting mana costs, but I think you'd still have issues there. You're just a lump of course, but perhaps tons of stun is worth using a champion spot.
I just really like taking advantage of the free stats he gets. For that money you could (nearly) have a Phage/Zeal/LW/IE/Mercs and about 2000-2200 hp (at a guess) and be a seriously scary skeleton.
Interested to hear how you go with it.
It's been really difficult. If you max your e first, it gets really hard to gank, and if you don't, it doesn't buff your health much.
I still think that he can be strong given certain circumstances, but if you build items slightly out of order, you're pretty useless. Get any number of kills and you're ridiculously strong though.
The heal on his ult doesn't really make it useful when building tank though, so it's sort of a wasted skill... that takes an ult slot.
If your top+mid and/or support are heavy divers, I think that sion can be very valuable, but otherwise there are far better champs. If somebody initiates for your team he'll be good and if your team gets initiated on he can peel well, but if its a poke comp he's essentially useless on either team.
I want to hear how this stuff goes.
With Regards to E max, I've never tried it but I don't think it'd be that useful. I'd get one point at lvl 2 or 3 for the huge damage increase with no mana cost. Usually level 3.
So I messed around with jungle Sion on the pbe a bit and got good results, but warning low level (1200) and also extremely casual because pbe.
I was starting Machete5, WEQWE (R>E>W>Q).
I found that having a level 3 shield was unncessary for jungling safety although it did help clear speed of course, although not by very much as the creeps were usually dying in a single E-enhanced auto post-shield anyway. Max W is probably noticeably faster, though. I was leaving shield at lv2 until 10 in all but my first game.
Focusing on ganking early isn't too hard or off-setting, I found. Since my levels from 7-9 are all putting points into E, that's when I really want to get my farm up, and I didn't feel that Sion was lacking in power with low items early on in any case. I was often buying Spirit Stone (enough mp5 to use shield once per camp when power farming, or use stun when not powerfarming) and boots on first back.
Solo dragon at level 6 with first ult is pretty easy as well. You can buy an early pink if your support has one and just fight dragon without anything more than SS and boots, maybe an HP pot if you get unlucky with your passive. Felt good and very useful.
Tiamat ASAP felt very good. If you can get it when your E is maxed out, Auto-Tiamat-Auto wipes camps instantly without the need of shield because of the huge flat AD steroid, and you can pretty much powerfarm while still ganking all the time. Counterjungling opened right up too and felt easy enough.
Was usually ending up with some mix of SS/Zerks/Tiamat/Glacial/WitsEndComponents, since with 300-500 bonus HP from E I didn't feel particularly squishy sitting on a chainvest / NMM for a while. Didn't play with SS upgrades but I probably should have? Looking for a bit of advice with this. Damage never felt low so far, although an upgrade to hydra might be better than finishing the wits.
Also, what do you guys run as your second summoner? I've tried flash/ghost/exhaust but TP felt pretty good for burst ganks since you can shield before you TP in, helps farming with tiamat as well. Will play with this, but I think I'll pick up Sion when I have the IP.
I like the idea of Tiamat, especially if you can turn it into Hydra at some point. Hydra especially has fantastic synergies with his kit (Hydras effects utilize AD/Lifesteal) and he gets the aoe damage he needs to clear quickly. If you're rushing Tiamat I would have thought the Spirit Stone was largely superfluous. It has hp regen and negates the need for you to use shield while clearing.
Not sold on Wits or IBG. His problem has always been his schizophrenic kit. One half doesn't scale well with the other so items that give you strength in a couple of areas hasn't really felt that efficient to me. It's mainly for that reason that I max E. I don't like delaying my hp ramp up to get a spell that is inefficient for damage on an AD Sion.
On extra summoner, I'm pretty much addicted to Ghost. Particularly with max E and you get much more value out of being able to stick on to targets. If you were putting more points into W Tele or the trusty Flash would probably be more useful.
I really find it kind of meh to build damage items on junglers cuz of how gold starved they are and basically if you dont get kills you fall behind HARD. Also if Sion is build as a tank his utility is pretty low. As for solo dragon @6 it's not so uncommon, most obvious would be Nasus and his utility is damn high. I really think that hydra build is strong on Sion, but should be build while lining. Just my IMO
I want to try out a wit's/nashor's style build on jungle sion. Maybe throw in a lichbane or something? Probably just razors -> wit's/nashor's full tank though.
On July 24 2013 21:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I want to try out a wit's/nashor's style build on jungle sion. Maybe throw in a lichbane or something? Probably just razors -> wit's/nashor's full tank though.
I have a friend who runs gunblade/guinsoos/botrk sion, pretty troll but he lives through EVERYTHING.
I really love junglers that can build damage and snowball games like that. Too bad my top laner always feels the same fucking way so I don't want to leave my team without a tank and then my ganks are all half as effective.
On September 28 2013 00:00 obesechicken13 wrote: Koreans started playing AP jungle Sion. It's pretty bonkers how much burst he has early game esp pre 6 but I wouldn't want the late game XD
I really love junglers that can build damage and snowball games like that. Too bad my top laner always feels the same fucking way so I don't want to leave my team without a tank and then my ganks are all half as effective.
I bet you can't find a pro level jungle sion game. Pretty sure bengi just did it for fun.
On September 28 2013 00:00 obesechicken13 wrote: Koreans started playing AP jungle Sion. It's pretty bonkers how much burst he has early game esp pre 6 but I wouldn't want the late game XD
I really love junglers that can build damage and snowball games like that. Too bad my top laner always feels the same fucking way so I don't want to leave my team without a tank and then my ganks are all half as effective.
I bet you can't find a pro level jungle sion game. Pretty sure bengi just did it for fun.
For people who play Sion Jungle, just wanted to recommend to go AP Sion even in jungle its much better than AD Sion. Level the shield and the stun 1st with 1 point on enrage at lvl 4. Start leveling ulti when you are close to finish Lich Bane (without Lich Bane ulti is kind of useless on AP Sion). I go with AP runes (Glyphs and Quintessences) MPenetration Marks and armor seal, but you may go with mana regeneration there also, lvl 2 shield blocks creeps' damage decently and lvl 3 shield protect you more than enough against them. Masteries are for a standard AP 21/0/9 (if u want the buff extension mastery) or 21/9/0 if you prefer more survival potential and you are afraid from counter jungling. Items: machete->boots/spirit stone-> 1 or 2 doran rings for early gank pressure/damage -> boot of mobility ->Wraith Spirit -> Lich Bane/Aegis or -> Aegis/Lich Bane (depends on the case) Overall thats it:-)
AD Sion with Tiamat->Hydra is really strong. What it does is it lets him get 20-60% of his damage on nearby minions and lifesteal from them for full effect. I didn't know it was full effect.
So recently I went into lane 1-0, with half life, fought a Nasus at full life, cleansed wither, and still won the trade because I was healing for 50% of my damage to him and 50% of my damage to minions at level 9. My damage is weakened against champions, but I cleared his entire wave just by autoattacking him. I gained hp back equal to an entire minion wave.
I think AD Sion has potential top. Just need to manage your mana well and play well against ranged champions. I don't think you should get Hydra first on Sion against ranged champions because it's too easy to get kited.
On November 26 2013 02:02 Artunit wrote: How do he play vs champions like Malphite, kennen or jayce on solo top?
Vs auto attack harassers like Kennen I'd assume you'd want like a few points in W to survive the early levels and wait for jungle ganks. Not a winning strategy but what can you do? I'm not sure how any melee top laners beat ranged ones and I've never learned because I use Kayle and Jax as crutches. Jax has enough mobility that it doesn't matter. I just cede cs until 6 and hope that the wave isn't pushed to tower so I can all in later. I don't think Malphite can beat you without massive outplays or a gold lead though. I mean, you sustain so much, I feel like you could turn the lane into a farm fest at worst.
I've been playing some AD Sion today and it feels like if your opponent knows to back off when you have your ult up and a few creeps you can't kill them. Also if you fight another bruiser 1v1 without creeps nearby, it's an even fight. And Sion sucks at teamfighting since if you build Hydra first, he's not THAT tanky. So he gets cc'ed, or focused, or grievous wounds gets applied, and he dies without contributing much.
Played a botlane today against a AP Support Sion + Darius. It's actually really hard to abuse your range advantage against that, if you get stunned by Sion you're likely dead. So flashed initiates by Sion have a really good chance of success. I don't know how viable he is in lategame though, as our other lanes had lost the game before that.
On November 30 2013 07:34 TigerKarl wrote: Played a botlane today against a AP Support Sion + Darius. It's actually really hard to abuse your range advantage against that, if you get stunned by Sion you're likely dead. So flashed initiates by Sion have a really good chance of success. I don't know how viable he is in lategame though, as our other lanes had lost the game before that.
I play Sion a lot, actually my main mid and I play him only AP, dont care what the hydra videos shows, he is just more useful AP. AD is maybe strong, is maybe even stronger than AP but its too situational. Anyway, to the question: Late game Sion is viable as an amount of damage he can cause, you gotta have Death Grasp and Lich Bane so you can utilize your ulti though, However, and this is However with a huge H its really fuckin hard to reach their adc/apc walking straight to them in a late game team fight without your shield being popped and losing half of your damage or even without you being popped and losing all your damage:-) On one side this, on the other side its not worthy to spend your damage on their front line, so it lead us to this: Sion can 1 shot late game adcs and apcs, so this makes him pretty viable in theory, However, most of the time it is simply impossible to reach them which makes Sion not that viable late game. I guess its situational, but most of the times as Sion I dislike team fights where teams just meet each other frontally in mid lane, nevertheless, team fights around baron, drake, in the jungle where you can sneak from aside/behind are completely acceptable, even satisfying:-)
Played around with Sion jungle the other day and I was surprised at how well his shield and passive kept him sustained near full hp with very few pots. Does anyone have any good tips for jungle Sion?
On December 19 2013 04:25 Ghost-z wrote: Played around with Sion jungle the other day and I was surprised at how well his shield and passive kept him sustained near full hp with very few pots. Does anyone have any good tips for jungle Sion?
On December 19 2013 04:25 Ghost-z wrote: Played around with Sion jungle the other day and I was surprised at how well his shield and passive kept him sustained near full hp with very few pots. Does anyone have any good tips for jungle Sion?
play a better jungle
Very constructive comment, Thank you!
Obviously he's not meta and no one is claiming him to be but I would like to try new junglers. I just wanted peoples opinions about which jungle item works best for him since he fits with well with all three or if Sion is better off starting with doran's since he's not as reliant on pots for sustain when he has a shield.
On December 19 2013 04:25 Ghost-z wrote: Played around with Sion jungle the other day and I was surprised at how well his shield and passive kept him sustained near full hp with very few pots. Does anyone have any good tips for jungle Sion?
play a better jungle
Very constructive comment, Thank you!
Obviously he's not meta and no one is claiming him to be but I would like to try new junglers. I just wanted peoples opinions about which jungle item works best for him since he fits with well with all three or if Sion is better off starting with doran's since he's not as reliant on pots for sustain when he has a shield.
I'd probably still say machete, and then go golem stone. Realistically though I dont think youre gonna get enough farm to be able to go anything other than the standard tanky jungle build honestly. You wont be able to afford enough to burst people down with ap(unless you get retarded fed) and ad obviously wont work since youre going to need a million farm to do anything
Yea I wan't planing on blowing anybody up with Jungle sion past level 6. What I was looking for is someone who could stand next to your ADC and peel for him while building AD for damage and using his shield/ult to tank bruisers. They don't want to focus you because you're Sion and if they don't burst you the life steal from his ult sustains you and your carry while having a strong peel in your stun. This does requier your ADC to not derp however.
After a few games I think Trundle does this better since his R makes bruisers nice and squishy so even if your ADC is under farmed you basically give them a free LW when you ult a bruiser. Not to mention Trundle gets a number of free stats, sustains just as strong in jungle, and has an all around better kit.
On December 19 2013 04:25 Ghost-z wrote: Played around with Sion jungle the other day and I was surprised at how well his shield and passive kept him sustained near full hp with very few pots. Does anyone have any good tips for jungle Sion?
I wrote up a Jungle Sion opinion/miniguide earlier in the thread. I played a fair bit of it in S3 but I feel like the fundamentals haven't really changed.
Is Hybrid Sion viable, something like Nashor, Hextech, Guinsoo, Trinty.. Its somehow annoying that he uses only half of his abilities when played AP or AD
On September 24 2014 06:44 M2 wrote: Is Hybrid Sion viable, something like Nashor, Hextech, Guinsoo, Trinty.. Its somehow annoying that he uses only half of his abilities when played AP or AD
probably not he's best as either a split push + duelist or a dfg shit on one person ap carry pretty much
On September 24 2014 06:44 M2 wrote: Is Hybrid Sion viable, something like Nashor, Hextech, Guinsoo, Trinty.. Its somehow annoying that he uses only half of his abilities when played AP or AD
probably not he's best as either a split push + duelist or a dfg shit on one person ap carry pretty much
Actually I tried it and it looks like a inferior version of split pusher + duelist, you can't instagib someone, but you can certainly split and duel, just somehow weaker before you complete at least 3 items + boots. However if you reach late game with 4+ complete items you become almost as strong duelest as AD sion and much stronger than AP sion, since you can almost instagib someone together with having great split and duel power, also you get the perks of having all 4 of your skills useful :-) Reaching that late game though is pretty tough and if the team falls of early you are completely useless
Since the rework I've been playing alot of Sion, he's currently my favorite champ. Has anyone tried building him full or hybrid AP in top? Maxing E in lane is already very strong, but as it has an AP ratio I was thinking maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to build something like RoA or Rylais as a first item against ranged squishies such as Gnar and Liss, both of whom are prominent in top these days.
And is it just me or is Banner of Command THE item to rush against ap tops?
Never used banner of command before, whats the best unit to promote with it? I assume always siege if you have one that wave, but what about melee vs caster minions?
Convince me Banner of Command isn't a complete trash item to rush against AP tops.
What I see is 200 health, 40 MR, 10% CDR, and some health regen whereas you could have gotten something much cheaper such as Spirit VIsage that gives you better stats.
On January 14 2015 18:32 Osmoses wrote:Has anyone tried building him full or hybrid AP in top? Maxing E in lane is already very strong, but as it has an AP ratio I was thinking maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to build something like RoA or Rylais as a first item against ranged squishies such as Gnar and Liss, both of whom are prominent in top these days.
I imagine RoA is okay, Rylais probably doesn't do a whole lot for him considering he already has a pretty big slow and his abilities are all on fairly long cooldowns, and its not like he's spacing them out much, so the slow on Rylais doesn't do a whole lot. It's not like his ratios are amazing and they're still split between AD and AP, and he already does % max health on his shield and his passive, so building tankier seems the way to go.
Yeah I just mentioned Rylai because it has health lol.
On January 15 2015 03:10 Lost My Will To Live wrote: Convince me Banner of Command isn't a complete trash item to rush against AP tops.
What I see is 200 health, 40 MR, 10% CDR, and some health regen whereas you could have gotten something much cheaper such as Spirit VIsage that gives you better stats.
Against double ap you're likely to get aegis anyway, and the active basically makes them unable to waveclear or even defend tower.
I've been playing a fair amount of Sion lately, and I think he's pretty good at the moment (at least in my elo). He's my go-to Top laner unless we really need Magic damage, and a pretty decent jungler from what I've seen.
I'm curious why people tend to build Spirit Visage on him (especially top)? I guess the CDR is helpful if you aren't going to be CDR capped, but I always build Banshees rather than SV. The spell shield can be immensely helpful to land your Q after you've ulted into a fight, as often people will panic-drop their CC on you and I find that getting knocked out of the initial Q after your ult is really detrimental to your in-fight presence (even with the only 2s CD).
While I said he was a decent jungler, I think it really depends on the enemy team comp. Ganking laners like Yasuo, Lucian, Leblanc (people that have low-CD dashes) can be a nightmare if not played properly. However, for champs with either no dash or a long CD dash, his ganks tend to be pretty good pre-6 and excellent post-6.
Have you guys experimented with 1 damage item as a 5th or 6th item? I really like the extra power once mid-late comes around. I've tried a couple, but end up build Frozen Mallet most of the time, occasionally Maw. Mallet is fucking hilarious with your passive, and decent/good the rest of the time. If you land your ult on their ADC/AP your lock down is immense.
Yeah I see no reason to get spirit visage, I always get banshees. With full build my two damage items are usually gauntlet and frozen mallet. Both are legit while alive and both are just fantastic when dead, the speedburst triggers gauntlet :D
On January 15 2015 05:54 Osmoses wrote: Yeah I see no reason to get spirit visage, I always get banshees. With full build my two damage items are usually gauntlet and frozen mallet. Both are legit while alive and both are just fantastic when dead, the speedburst triggers gauntlet :D
you really shouldn't build gauntlet and mallet, stacking slows get reduced effect and I don't even know why you would need that much slow anyway. If you can't stick on a 40% slowed target then you are probably CCed yourself.
I've been experimenting with possible ult paths and found quite a few that I consider 'non-obvious' (or at least, not obvious to me). Below is a map of the notable ones.
Note: The colors are only to help distinguish between lines.
All these paths should be possible when done from the mirrored side (e.g. the two pink lines going from Blue Base to Baron are possible when going from Red Base to Dragon). Since the map is mirrored, I only drew one of each path to aid the readability of the map.
If you approach a wall at a shallow enough angle, Sion will be sharply redirected along the wall rather than crashing into it. Non of paths in the above image require effect, but several are made easier by making use of this. I suspect that there are paths that are made possible only by using this, but have yet to find any that I can replicate consistently.
What are your guys' thoughts on Sunfire as a Core (1st/2nd) item on Sion? Up until a week ago I built it nearly every game that I could afford to, primarily for the increased kill potential on dash-less opponents and partially as a waveclear aid. I run MPen quints when I can get away with it and the damage from the burn ontop of W/E melts targets who haven't build MR yet.
The downside are that you spend 500g on damage at a point in the game where you only have 1 or 1.5 items, so you are relying more on your innate tankiness to push you through this 'tank trough'. If the other team comp forces you into MR at/before 2nd item, it seems not worth it to forgo CDR and mana for the extra damage Sunfire provides.
My recent build has been: Cheese a camp, start Ruby+Rejuv+2pot, rush catalyst, then itemize whatever resists you need that game, then finish Righteous Glory once I need some HP to back up the armor/MR stacking. Usually I'll fit a Glacial in soon after the catalyst. Catalyst solves the mana problem in lane entirely, and Righteous Glory gives so much HP that I don't feel bad if when it is my only HP item along with FH/Null-magic or something similar.
Something I'm taking a liking to is building Zzrot components right after Catalyst, and finishing Zzrot/RG/Glacial in whatever order seems necessary at the time. Zzrot gives a lot of resistances to compliment the Catalyst/RG, though I'm still not great with its active so its usefulness varies game to game. Early raptor cloak is definitely fun though, zooming around under your/their tower during laning is hilarious. Also if you pick up the Zzrot early, the Void Gate can make for some nice escapes since you gain Point Runner from it.
^sunfire cape is situational its good if they have a lot of melee and your team is doing ok. if enemy ap or ad are fed you better go for more defensive item.
On March 21 2015 03:22 Nohiko wrote: What are your guys' thoughts on Sunfire as a Core (1st/2nd) item on Sion? Up until a week ago I built it nearly every game that I could afford to, primarily for the increased kill potential on dash-less opponents and partially as a waveclear aid. I run MPen quints when I can get away with it and the damage from the burn ontop of W/E melts targets who haven't build MR yet.
The downside are that you spend 500g on damage at a point in the game where you only have 1 or 1.5 items, so you are relying more on your innate tankiness to push you through this 'tank trough'. If the other team comp forces you into MR at/before 2nd item, it seems not worth it to forgo CDR and mana for the extra damage Sunfire provides.
My recent build has been: Cheese a camp, start Ruby+Rejuv+2pot, rush catalyst, then itemize whatever resists you need that game, then finish Righteous Glory once I need some HP to back up the armor/MR stacking. Usually I'll fit a Glacial in soon after the catalyst. Catalyst solves the mana problem in lane entirely, and Righteous Glory gives so much HP that I don't feel bad if when it is my only HP item along with FH/Null-magic or something similar.
Something I'm taking a liking to is building Zzrot components right after Catalyst, and finishing Zzrot/RG/Glacial in whatever order seems necessary at the time. Zzrot gives a lot of resistances to compliment the Catalyst/RG, though I'm still not great with its active so its usefulness varies game to game. Early raptor cloak is definitely fun though, zooming around under your/their tower during laning is hilarious. Also if you pick up the Zzrot early, the Void Gate can make for some nice escapes since you gain Point Runner from it.
Sunfire should never be built on Sion, its a cost inefficient item that should only be built if you need pushing power. Sion has probably the best pushing power of any champion in top lane with EQ. You already wreck the wave, so its a complete waste. Nobody is going to stand next to you long enough for the measly damage to ever add up to anything, plus as Sion you usually avoid long trades in lane in favor of poking and EQ(W) then disengage. The small synergy with Mpen is absolutely not worth it (I run Hybrid pen on him as well). I would advocate an early FH in any matchup you can build armor.
I wouldn't build Zz'rot for nearly the same reason. Sion is like the safest pusher in the game, a few voidlings doesn't really add anything to his push power when you can already instaclear a wave. Just relentlessly EQ until you hit inhib and ult away if they come for you.
On March 21 2015 03:22 Nohiko wrote: What are your guys' thoughts on Sunfire as a Core (1st/2nd) item on Sion? Up until a week ago I built it nearly every game that I could afford to, primarily for the increased kill potential on dash-less opponents and partially as a waveclear aid. I run MPen quints when I can get away with it and the damage from the burn ontop of W/E melts targets who haven't build MR yet.
The downside are that you spend 500g on damage at a point in the game where you only have 1 or 1.5 items, so you are relying more on your innate tankiness to push you through this 'tank trough'. If the other team comp forces you into MR at/before 2nd item, it seems not worth it to forgo CDR and mana for the extra damage Sunfire provides.
My recent build has been: Cheese a camp, start Ruby+Rejuv+2pot, rush catalyst, then itemize whatever resists you need that game, then finish Righteous Glory once I need some HP to back up the armor/MR stacking. Usually I'll fit a Glacial in soon after the catalyst. Catalyst solves the mana problem in lane entirely, and Righteous Glory gives so much HP that I don't feel bad if when it is my only HP item along with FH/Null-magic or something similar.
Something I'm taking a liking to is building Zzrot components right after Catalyst, and finishing Zzrot/RG/Glacial in whatever order seems necessary at the time. Zzrot gives a lot of resistances to compliment the Catalyst/RG, though I'm still not great with its active so its usefulness varies game to game. Early raptor cloak is definitely fun though, zooming around under your/their tower during laning is hilarious. Also if you pick up the Zzrot early, the Void Gate can make for some nice escapes since you gain Point Runner from it.
Sunfire should never be built on Sion, its a cost inefficient item that should only be built if you need pushing power. Sion has probably the best pushing power of any champion in top lane with EQ. You already wreck the wave, so its a complete waste. Nobody is going to stand next to you long enough for the measly damage to ever add up to anything, plus as Sion you usually avoid long trades in lane in favor of poking and EQ(W) then disengage. The small synergy with Mpen is absolutely not worth it (I run Hybrid pen on him as well). I would advocate an early FH in any matchup you can build armor.
I wouldn't build Zz'rot for nearly the same reason. Sion is like the safest pusher in the game, a few voidlings doesn't really add anything to his push power when you can already instaclear a wave. Just relentlessly EQ until you hit inhib and ult away if they come for you.
I find that in lane I can keep the opponent within sunfire range for a couple sets of CDs if they are just focused on getting away from me (provided they don't have a dash). The rest of the time I would agree that your damage is more poke based, so sunfire isn't doing much for you.
I don't build Zzrot to drop the Gate in the same lane I'm currently splitting in, I drop the Gate when I have to leave the lane. If I ult to mid/jungle or TP somewhere then I can drop the Gate before I leave and continue to apply pressure to that lane. Also if we are team pushing a lane, you can take a quick trip into the jungle and drop the Gate near one of the other lanes for additional pressure. Doesn't take long and can get you an extra tower.
How do you play against Sion mid-lategame when he's unkillable, does magic and physical damage, and wrecks you even after he dies? Honestly I just ban him every game now because he never seems weak.
On March 21 2015 09:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: How do you play against Sion mid-lategame when he's unkillable, does magic and physical damage, and wrecks you even after he dies? Honestly I just ban him every game now because he never seems weak.
Last
He never does that much damage, ideally you would manage to stun him out of his Q, ignore him and take out his backline. Then kill him later.
On March 21 2015 09:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: How do you play against Sion mid-lategame when he's unkillable, does magic and physical damage, and wrecks you even after he dies? Honestly I just ban him every game now because he never seems weak.
Last
He never does that much damage, ideally you would manage to stun him out of his Q, ignore him and take out his backline. Then kill him later.
I always see Sion do most/second most damage in game with full tank build though. How can you just ignore him?
On March 21 2015 09:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: How do you play against Sion mid-lategame when he's unkillable, does magic and physical damage, and wrecks you even after he dies? Honestly I just ban him every game now because he never seems weak.
Last
He never does that much damage, ideally you would manage to stun him out of his Q, ignore him and take out his backline. Then kill him later.
I always see Sion do most/second most damage in game with full tank build though. How can you just ignore him?
Most of that damage is in lane spamming E. If you avoid/cancel his Q his teamfight impact isn't that great. If you can get somone to bodyblock or trundle his ult, all he has is 2-3 single target E's and autoattacks.
Also I think you're exaggerating that damage number a bit.
I actually think Sion is pretty great right now. Not only because of his flexibility between going top or going jungle. The inherent tankiness he gains from is W is pretty huge in combination with Cinderhulk.
I like how they nerfed his E damage because they felt as a full tank he shouldn't be doing all this damage, but they only nerfed his q versus monsters. I haven't maxed E first in any matchup since I started playing him, max Q first is soooo much more fun. If you land a full charge q in lane, something which I'm usually capable of at least once in most games due to my superior footsies, that's half their hp gone. And then they are stunned forever so if its not a kill they at least gotta back and its your lane.
Best one I managed was against a top Annie, she was full health but no flash when she blew her stun in a trade and I flashed in afterwards and landed a full EQW and all her health disappeared. It's so rewarding to land the finishing blow with Q :p
if you can land a full charge q without the opponent being slowed or otherwise cc'd they're bad anyway and what you max first isn't the biggest factor of who wins the lane
On March 27 2015 03:33 cilinder007 wrote: if you can land a full charge q without the opponent being slowed or otherwise cc'd they're bad anyway and what you max first isn't the biggest factor of who wins the lane
To be fair you have a slow in your kit. I always maxed E but haven't played since patch.
Jungled him, ended up missing my ult like 4/5 times finished 12/4/9 lol
His passive is also hilarious. If early on an enemy laner pushes hard at all, you suicide gank them and guarantee that your lane wins because they have summoners and 2+ waves. Its even better when you don't die, or the enemy jungler shows up and you get a double.
Sorry but are you me? After seeing his ridiculous winrate in the jungle I figured I'd give him a shot, despite never playing him. Won 4/4 games, dealing way more damage than I had any right to while building full tank.
I don't think the 5.6 nerfs hit him too hard, I'll farm him up for LP this weekend :D.
On March 30 2015 22:10 DrunkenOne wrote: How are his jungle ganks? On paper I'd imagine its difficult since you have no gap close besides ult and need to land E to get the slow.
Not too bad from my admittedly limited experience. Your laner likely has some sort of CC which helps with chaining your E and Q, and chilling smite really helps closing range. I typically do something like run into lane with shield, chilling smite, close gap, E, charge and kill with Q. I have yet to successfully gank with ult.
I always ulti into lane, it's pretty easy to land it close enough to get the slow/damage, and once you get that it's usually game over. I usually stop my ulti prematurely even if it seems I'll hit just to be safe.
Yeah, you just have to not be scared and just go for the ult ganks, sometimes you miss but its totally worth. If you are running at them in the same direction they have to ecape (ie through the lane) its also a lot easier to hit them, as if they dodge really parallel they lose distance to their tower and get caught by laners.
If you land it its basically guaranteed flash or kill if they dont have flash. I just use it literally on CD, some of the times it will hit and the CD isn't too long.
Without ult you just walk in and lay down Q over their escape path, they have to blow something to get over it.
EPT
))
![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/9s9ytd.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/G066IlB.png)
