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On January 24 2011 18:44 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 13:42 zulu_nation8 wrote:
So I've tried many times but I just can't do the regi route. Either I get down to almost no hp after lizard and have to bluepill or I can't even finish lizard. I'm running apen/mp5/mp5/hp, 11/0/19 or 20/0/10. I've tried starting red after smiting big wraith but I don't know where to go after that. What's a good and safe route people do nowadays?
nvm I just did it with slightly less than half hp, how much hp should I have? I suggest running armor seals and 1/14/15 masteries, gives you the beefiness you need. Personally I run offensive quints and reds on jungle shaco (ASPD or Armorpene, depends if I start on regi route or blue). but you should all try starting blue,putting ALL your boxes there. at 1:40 smite the big wolf, finish it off and run off to kill golem. It will have 400 or so hp iirc (one of my boxes allways hits small lizard instead). Then you run off to get their lizard buff and one of their small golems, now you can gank their jungler, mid or top with dual buff ghost and around half HP. You might not be able to do one of the small golems sometimes, if they have a fast jungler (like rammus / udyr). But you will allways get the lizard, though it will be close so I suggest you take their lizard into the brush. If you dont feel comfy with stealing their red (If you think their jungler is fast or for some reason skipping wraiths, then do it in your own jungle. You will be level 3-4 same time as the midlane. The personal reason why I consider the regi route a gimmick is that if you want to play a passive shaco style or if the lanes somehow isnt ripe for ganking then you can use the blue buff to spamm E for a way better jungle speed bonus than redbuff is. Sometimes I even wait with Q til lvl 4 if no lanes are gankable. Remember if a lane suddenly is gankable you still have ghost, red and a ranged slow. You can fucken kill them. One of the amazing things about shaco is that he is probally the fastest dragoners in game right now, he is one of the fastest junglers to reach lvl 6 + wriggles if he gets some ganks in and skips boots for a faster wriggles you can do drag at lvl 6 by letting clone / jitb tank it. Sometimes dragon is annoying and attack you, then you can make him atack your clone by. 1: Deceiving 2: throwing a jitb you generally wanna try to throw the JITB first, since if you put deceive on cooldown you dont have any escape mechanics and then youre suddenly very vulnerable to ganks. This was my take on the Shaco playstyle early game, lategame revolves about running around being an ass to the enemies sidelane and throwing jitb's everywhere around where you push so you can just run away from them :D oh and my build is cloth armor + 5pot, wriggles/madreds + boots followed by the one you didnt get before, boots of mobillity, then triforce if its gonna be a backdoor game (youre better at running away + sheen is baws vs turrets). Madreds if its gonna be a baron focused game. after wriggles / boots of mobillity get a negatron / red elixir whenever needed. Build the negatron into whatever you need it. FoN for poke game, Banshees if you have to teamfight, quicksilver if you really cant get out of CC (mercs might be recommended in this case too). Games usually dont last that long after trinity / madreds but I'd follow trinity up with IE and madreds up with BT (not sure if malady is better than BT in this scenario, havent really played that lategame).
only real benefit from taking blue first is the element of surprise (as most teams expect a shaco to start red). red buff start is not only faster for clearing the jungle, but gives the jungler a very viable option to counterjungle if they get a good cv or the opportunity to gank, and forces the enemy to play more defensively than they would otherwise. now that I mention it, I'm not sure if (the faster clear time) is still the case, but seeing as a lot of a shaco who starts at blue's damage comes from his spell spam i would assume that it still is.
also, if you are planning on giving the second red to your carry in mid, it will generally be more helpful as they will have their first b and items (around 8-9) and will be able to make better use of it with boots + whatever else they have gotten. if you start blue first the timing is a bit awkward (around the time a dragon fight should be going down is when the red has a second respawn, 10-11ish) and the carry will usually still have been on their first b, wouldn't really have any benefit over taking the red at 8-9.
FoN is a mediocre item on shaco, he makes no use of the HP regen passive and the slight movespeed boost would be better gotten from trinity or ghostblade. as for MRes, bveil is superior in almost anyway as it gives better survivability (mana + health + mres + great passive) and the passive is probably better for a poke game anyway as it prevents them from catching you in a sea of cc before you can decieve away. which leads me to ask, why the extreme movespeed stacking (mobility, triforce, FoN) when you have one of the best blinks in the game and a projectile dodge? sounds like a great pubstomp build but completely wrecked by any cc and coordination at all.
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Triple D-blade can be pretty good if your enemies are bad, since for a while you can dive into several people and cause a mess while everyone on your team cleansup.
It's counter-productive when they don't get baited as easily.
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United States37500 Posts
FoN is a terrible item for Shaco. He simply doesn't have the health pool to make efficient use out of FoN's regen stats.
As for anti-poking, I don't see how you can beat the spell block from Banshee's.
There's a reason why most Shaco's go Banshee's as their first survivability item (Sunfire is a far second).
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On January 25 2011 04:34 Juicyfruit wrote:
Triple D-blade can be pretty good if your enemies are bad, since for a while you can dive into several people and cause a mess while everyone on your team cleansup.
It's counter-productive when they don't get baited as easily.
if you "dive into several people" i don't see why you wouldn't die, bad or not. 300 hp and 12% lifesteal doesn't make you invincible or anything. using dblades as an excuse to become an initiator on a really squishy heroes usually doesn't end up too well lol 
and playing with the assumption that "my enemies are bad" usually isn't a good way to win lol. if you do build up an early game lead by feeding off your enemies, the best way to extend this lead further is to build strong items before they can. i don't see why you would get triple dblade after wriggles, because wriggles covers a lot of what the dblades does with a great passive, and getting sheen increases your burst on both creeps and champions in comparison to dblade stack. it also builds into triforce, which is always welcome on shaco lategame. the difference between a kassadin with a catalyst, boots, ward is huge as compared to a kass with mana crystal, ruby crystal, boots, and wards + pots. they don't have to burn further money on regen that an item that will build into useful things later would also give, and will get said useful things faster as such.
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On January 25 2011 04:38 NeoIllusions wrote:
FoN is a terrible item for Shaco. He simply doesn't have the health pool to make efficient use out of FoN's regen stats.
As for anti-poking, I don't see how you can beat the spell block from Banshee's.
There's a reason why most Shaco's go Banshee's as their first survivability item (Sunfire is a far second).
Dont ask me what i was thinking when I wrote that part about FoN.
Nevertheless I dont see why u shouldnt start at blue when you can hurt the opposing junglers abillity to gank ALOT without hampering your own. Thats why i think blue route is better. Its also alot more flexible, in that from when you finish golem you can help mid, go own red or steal opponents red.
I think its a matter of playstyle, but to me the regi route isnt satisfying, in that matter.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 25 2011 04:59 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 04:38 NeoIllusions wrote:
FoN is a terrible item for Shaco. He simply doesn't have the health pool to make efficient use out of FoN's regen stats.
As for anti-poking, I don't see how you can beat the spell block from Banshee's.
There's a reason why most Shaco's go Banshee's as their first survivability item (Sunfire is a far second). Dont ask me what i was thinking when I wrote that part about FoN. Nevertheless I dont see why u shouldnt start at blue when you can hurt the opposing junglers abillity to gank ALOT without hampering your own. Thats why i think blue route is better. Its also alot more flexible, in that from when you finish golem you can help mid, go own red or steal opponents red. I think its a matter of playstyle, but to me the regi route isnt satisfying, in that matter.
Never commented on your jungle path, simply your FoN suggestion.
If you've ever taken note of my jungle champion guides, all of them suggest going Blue first. Shaco included.
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On January 25 2011 05:45 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 04:59 Iplaythings wrote:On January 25 2011 04:38 NeoIllusions wrote:
FoN is a terrible item for Shaco. He simply doesn't have the health pool to make efficient use out of FoN's regen stats.
As for anti-poking, I don't see how you can beat the spell block from Banshee's.
There's a reason why most Shaco's go Banshee's as their first survivability item (Sunfire is a far second). Dont ask me what i was thinking when I wrote that part about FoN. Nevertheless I dont see why u shouldnt start at blue when you can hurt the opposing junglers abillity to gank ALOT without hampering your own. Thats why i think blue route is better. Its also alot more flexible, in that from when you finish golem you can help mid, go own red or steal opponents red. I think its a matter of playstyle, but to me the regi route isnt satisfying, in that matter. Never commented on your jungle path, simply your FoN suggestion. If you've ever taken note of my jungle champion guides, all of them suggest going Blue first. Shaco included.
I don't know, I used to go blue as Shaco, but I feel I couldn't gank until at least after Wraiths, and to ensure the kill, I'd have to get a red, which required me setting up more boxes there, delaying my gank to almost 5 mins (somewhere around like 4:30 to finish red was my fastest time I think).
After going Regi's build, I almost never go the blue start anymore unless my boxes are popped @ red, the gank comes so early and it feels so strong (~3 mins if I remember correctly). I just feel starting red is great, because as Reginald states in his tutorial, "You can always fallback to blue as a backup plan, but you can't switch from blue to red", unless this MR buff on jungle was big enough that 2-3 boxes + smite can't take blue anymore?
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I have no doubt that regi build is the best start for Shaco if you don't get disrupted.
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The thing is it's the weakest out of all possible starting routes for shaco when you do.
Playing in some of the higher level games with good shaco players has got me some tips from them. Always start red and stack your boxes in that bush with your team there as backup. Getting red for a fast gank is mad important.
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Ive been trying shaco for a few games without much success. Even lowby 1400 elo's go disrupt shaco's boxes at red and minigolem.
Question tho: assuming theres absolutely no good ganks available based on tanky lanes or beefy healers or everyone has flash or somethin, would starting blue first or red first be the quickest way to get a lantern and lvl 6 or 7 to do dragon?
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On January 26 2011 17:07 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Ive been trying shaco for a few games without much success. Even lowby 1400 elo's go disrupt shaco's boxes at red and minigolem.
Question tho: assuming theres absolutely no good ganks available based on tanky lanes or beefy healers or everyone has flash or somethin, would starting blue first or red first be the quickest way to get a lantern and lvl 6 or 7 to do dragon?
i don't think you should assume that when you're starting
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Yeah i shouldn't assume that.
Ok so I just had this game and I did great early game with like 3/1/10 ganking my ass off. Then team fights came around and I had no idea what to do.
It was malph, vlad, anivia, GP, shaco vs nasus, enemy shaco, malhazar, sona, corky
Yes it was a norm queue. So team fights went like this, malph and vlad would ult 2-3 people and usually instagib sona. Nassus would ult and run directly for anivia. Malzahar would ult and kill malph. Corky and shaco kill whatever is close to them.
What do I do? Every time a team fight rolled around I would run in as malph ults someone. Ultimate myself. Auto attack whoever is the weakest (usually to gib sona) then i die... I die in about 2 seconds. Malzahar pool+silence, and corky/shaco. What the heck can I do??
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lots of options
1. go in after they focus another hero (like ani, great because of egg mechanic) or someone(s) on your team has blown massive cc'd (galio, amumu, morgana, rammus with powerball -> taunt+ult, etc.). In your case, viable options would be if malph and GP combined their ults, they would be taking massive dps in the time they tried to focus you (if they even could, with ani there too).
2. kite with q and e, go in for kills only and use jitbs to fear for your team
3. use projectile dodge on R and q to avoid cc/skillshots
4. a combination of the above
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On January 26 2011 18:49 Navi wrote:
lots of options
1. go in after they focus another hero (like ani, great because of egg mechanic) or someone(s) on your team has blown massive cc'd (galio, amumu, morgana, rammus with powerball -> taunt+ult, etc.). In your case, viable options would be if malph and GP combined their ults, they would be taking massive dps in the time they tried to focus you (if they even could, with ani there too).
2. kite with q and e, go in for kills only and use jitbs to fear for your team
3. use projectile dodge on R and q to avoid cc/skillshots
4. a combination of the above
ty for advice. I'll apply it to my next game.
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On January 26 2011 18:49 Navi wrote:
lots of options
1. go in after they focus another hero (like ani, great because of egg mechanic) or someone(s) on your team has blown massive cc'd (galio, amumu, morgana, rammus with powerball -> taunt+ult, etc.). In your case, viable options would be if malph and GP combined their ults, they would be taking massive dps in the time they tried to focus you (if they even could, with ani there too).
2. kite with q and e, go in for kills only and use jitbs to fear for your team
3. use projectile dodge on R and q to avoid cc/skillshots
4. a combination of the above
since when does Q dodge projectiles?
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On January 27 2011 07:24 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 18:49 Navi wrote:
lots of options
1. go in after they focus another hero (like ani, great because of egg mechanic) or someone(s) on your team has blown massive cc'd (galio, amumu, morgana, rammus with powerball -> taunt+ult, etc.). In your case, viable options would be if malph and GP combined their ults, they would be taking massive dps in the time they tried to focus you (if they even could, with ani there too).
2. kite with q and e, go in for kills only and use jitbs to fear for your team
3. use projectile dodge on R and q to avoid cc/skillshots
4. a combination of the above since when does Q dodge projectiles?
I think he means Q to dodge skilshots.
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found out how to keep neutrals aggro'd
drop your boxes and when you pull the creeps into them wait for the fear to wear off before attacking them
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with the new aggro system, is that even an issue anymore?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 28 2011 09:45 Navi wrote:
with the new aggro system, is that even an issue anymore?
You'd still have to run out of the leash range for them to re-aggro to your boxes--you probably lose less autoattacks waiting for the fear to come off than you do running out and back into leash range.
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I am having some problems jungling after the whole MR shit. Have tried some variations with the runes and masteries - but still causing a problem. What stuff are you guys running so that you guys dont have problems?
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EPT
