I have no idea how to play him properly. I've seen a huge variety of builds, and I don't really know how to judge which one is actually most consistent/ 'the best'.
Do you get Wriggle's?
Do you just get Razors + vamp scepter and thus get a much faster bloodrazor?
What boots do you get? When do you upgrade them?
If the enemy is warding all over the place, when is an ideal time to buy Oracle's? After Razors? After Vamp. scepter?
So basically yeah, wriggles for the lifesteal and to save money on wards, open cloth armor and don't get too fixed on starting golems+red. Boxcamp the shit out of their jungle, feel free to ult when jungling before lv 10. You don't really need health to trap, you just need bluebuff and boxes.
On December 03 2010 08:01 TieN.nS) wrote: Nolja went Wriggle's into TriForce against CLG in Newegg and OP was undefeated with his Shaco so sounds pretty good to me~
I've been yelled at nonstop every time i've built triforce. =/
It seems like it gives Shaco just about everything he needs, though-- I'll give it another shot. The 300 health (I think it's 300) is a particularly nice bonus because he's so squishy by default.
And yes, I watched that Reginald video long before posting this. I'm pretty sure it's pre-nerf though and in an entirely different metagame, so it may be entirely irrelevant now for all I know.
cloth + 5 pot 3 jitb under golem's spawnpoint, 1 jitb at the choke to river, 1 jitb behind golem bush (or a fourth at golem spawn if you feel very safe), smite blue buff and kill small lizards. level 2 gets knife. wolves->wraiths, save smite, level knife->golems, smite one->red buff, set up 3 jitbs outside of lizard's range, draw it in with knife, kill with smite gank closest lane by deceiving in, backstabbing with red, and using knife to keep them slowed. 100% of the time will get you a kill. literally 100% of the time. b home and buy madred's + more pots, boots if you can afford them. clean up the jungle again or gank again depending on the situation. you want to hit 6 asap. at level six you'll want madred's and recurve or madred's and zerkers, either works. run to dragon, jitb under dragon, immediately ult, immediately knife dragon, then attack it. knife and jitb on cooldown, dragon will go down in seconds. go grab buffs and gank again. depending on how many kills you got (i've had 4 in the first 4 minutes before O_o) you can have bloodrazor as early as 12.5 minutes, but it should never be later than 20 minutes. once you've got BR and zerkers either force teamfights and blow up their squishies, using Q as an escape not an initiate, or go to empty lanes and push towers like the madman you are. your clone + jitb help you take down towers insanely fast. every item after bloodrazor is situational. i frequently follow up BR with: banshee sunfire thornmail black cleaver randuin etc etc etc
if your team is all magic damage and needs an AD carry, skip the bloodrazor and build infinity edge after madred's razor. consider turning madred's into lantern or saving it for BR later. sell your zerkers lategame for mercs
On December 03 2010 10:27 TheYango wrote: Semi-related, but apparently Guinsoo made a post saying they want Shaco to be a better laner, but not jungle.
On December 03 2010 10:27 TheYango wrote: Semi-related, but apparently Guinsoo made a post saying they want Shaco to be a better laner, but not jungle.
On December 03 2010 10:27 TheYango wrote: Semi-related, but apparently Guinsoo made a post saying they want Shaco to be a better laner, but not jungle.
A clown that can go invisible, crits when invisible, has a passive slow, has a fear and does extra damage when attacking from behind sounds like he belongs in the jungle....
On December 03 2010 10:22 gtrsrs wrote: shaco through the 1400 level is played as such:
cloth + 5 pot 3 jitb under golem's spawnpoint, 1 jitb at the choke to river, 1 jitb behind golem bush (or a fourth at golem spawn if you feel very safe), smite blue buff and kill small lizards. level 2 gets knife. wolves->wraiths, save smite, level knife->golems, smite one->red buff, set up 3 jitbs outside of lizard's range, draw it in with knife, kill with smite gank closest lane by deceiving in, backstabbing with red, and using knife to keep them slowed. 100% of the time will get you a kill. literally 100% of the time. b home and buy madred's + more pots, boots if you can afford them. clean up the jungle again or gank again depending on the situation. you want to hit 6 asap. at level six you'll want madred's and recurve or madred's and zerkers, either works. run to dragon, jitb under dragon, immediately ult, immediately knife dragon, then attack it. knife and jitb on cooldown, dragon will go down in seconds. go grab buffs and gank again. depending on how many kills you got (i've had 4 in the first 4 minutes before O_o) you can have bloodrazor as early as 12.5 minutes, but it should never be later than 20 minutes. once you've got BR and zerkers either force teamfights and blow up their squishies, using Q as an escape not an initiate, or go to empty lanes and push towers like the madman you are. your clone + jitb help you take down towers insanely fast. every item after bloodrazor is situational. i frequently follow up BR with: banshee sunfire thornmail black cleaver randuin etc etc etc
if your team is all magic damage and needs an AD carry, skip the bloodrazor and build infinity edge after madred's razor. consider turning madred's into lantern or saving it for BR later. sell your zerkers lategame for mercs
I've been doing this build at the 1300 level (other than I do Regi's jungle route), but my team tends to suicide while I attempt to push towers, but my team doesn't seem to understand that forcing 4v5's away from towers is a bad idea. I was thinking that I might try opening Wriggles into IE then GA followed by more damage making me faster at killing towers. Does this sound viable?
Is anyone else tired of free shaco weekend already? I've been smurfing with a friend who started playing recently and he was on nine out of ten teams. Almost always terrible. One game we went from 8-0 to 8-7 when our jungle shaco started ganking. We only won cos it was 5v4.
On December 03 2010 10:27 TheYango wrote: Semi-related, but apparently Guinsoo made a post saying they want Shaco to be a better laner, but not jungle.
On December 03 2010 10:22 gtrsrs wrote: shaco through the 1400 level is played as such:
cloth + 5 pot 3 jitb under golem's spawnpoint, 1 jitb at the choke to river, 1 jitb behind golem bush (or a fourth at golem spawn if you feel very safe), smite blue buff and kill small lizards. level 2 gets knife. wolves->wraiths, save smite, level knife->golems, smite one->red buff, set up 3 jitbs outside of lizard's range, draw it in with knife, kill with smite gank closest lane by deceiving in, backstabbing with red, and using knife to keep them slowed. 100% of the time will get you a kill. literally 100% of the time. b home and buy madred's + more pots, boots if you can afford them. clean up the jungle again or gank again depending on the situation. you want to hit 6 asap. at level six you'll want madred's and recurve or madred's and zerkers, either works. run to dragon, jitb under dragon, immediately ult, immediately knife dragon, then attack it. knife and jitb on cooldown, dragon will go down in seconds. go grab buffs and gank again. depending on how many kills you got (i've had 4 in the first 4 minutes before O_o) you can have bloodrazor as early as 12.5 minutes, but it should never be later than 20 minutes. once you've got BR and zerkers either force teamfights and blow up their squishies, using Q as an escape not an initiate, or go to empty lanes and push towers like the madman you are. your clone + jitb help you take down towers insanely fast. every item after bloodrazor is situational. i frequently follow up BR with: banshee sunfire thornmail black cleaver randuin etc etc etc
if your team is all magic damage and needs an AD carry, skip the bloodrazor and build infinity edge after madred's razor. consider turning madred's into lantern or saving it for BR later. sell your zerkers lategame for mercs
I've been doing this build at the 1300 level (other than I do Regi's jungle route), but my team tends to suicide while I attempt to push towers, but my team doesn't seem to understand that forcing 4v5's away from towers is a bad idea. I was thinking that I might try opening Wriggles into IE then GA followed by more damage making me faster at killing towers. Does this sound viable?
yes that's definitely viable, i just dislike it because it feels like wriggle's is so inferior compared to BR. but i do it sometimes too depending on team comp
jungle tank shaco: (how I do it atleast) cloth 5 pot / red pot 5 pot (depends if you wanna start red buff for gank or bluebuff) boots 1 wriggles hog negatron (pump red pots from here on!) Blood thirster (or triforce) banshees later, upgrade HoG to a rhanduins/sunfire Thats how I do it atleast, I dont like rushing for baron because I wont have free wards /( inifinite jungling with wriggles then)
On December 03 2010 10:27 TheYango wrote: Semi-related, but apparently Guinsoo made a post saying they want Shaco to be a better laner, but not jungle.
On December 03 2010 20:27 Iplaythings wrote: jungle tank shaco: (how I do it atleast) cloth 5 pot / red pot 5 pot (depends if you wanna start red buff for gank or bluebuff) boots 1 wriggles hog negatron (pump red pots from here on!) Blood thirster (or triforce) banshees later, upgrade HoG to a rhanduins/sunfire Thats how I do it atleast, I dont like rushing for baron because I wont have free wards /( inifinite jungling with wriggles then)
your damage is coming wayyyyyyyy too late with this build. if you're going for these items, get the thirster before the HoG or the negatron or you're gonna get it too late for it to matter
Omfg, been playing shaco with BR rush so far, and just tried Wriggles > Triforce. It rocks!!!! Early wriggles makes farming so much easier, and a fast sheen dominates with q! Also, being able to get a slightly early health crystal helps so much. Man I'm in love with this build.
On December 03 2010 10:22 gtrsrs wrote: shaco through the 1400 level is played as such:
Is there anything you can do when half of the enemy team is sitting at your golem spawn? I just played a game where they even placed a ward so if I tried to stack jitbs at the spawn they would come over and gank me. I'm solo queuing so 99% of the time my team is useless and never even help me.
Your normal path is pretty screwed if that happens and your team isn't there to help. IMO best option after that is to do all the small camps, back/heal, and then do golem and continue. My modified path if I got screwed would be to do wraiths (use smite), wolves, stone golems (use smite again), heal (pots, etc), stack some jitbs at golem (smite should come up again), then continue.
Edit: If you're shaco, you really need to tell your team to wait in the jungle with you.
I like to start with boots first on shaco. I probably kill the camps slower, but early ganks are really, really effective. Normally people burn 1-2 summoner spells when I appear on their heads.
And yes always have your team help you so that your boxes don't get triggered at level 1. I could write a guide on him but... reginaid has already done so much stuff that there's no need for me to do it. He's probably smarter than me anyway.
Oh I usually go
Boots Lantern *Oracles (depends on how much the other team is warding) Bloodrazor Phage Guardian Angel
On December 04 2010 10:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: What's the point to getting Lantern and Bloodrazors?
Probably because you need lifesteal as shaco anyway and upgrading to lantern is very cheap, while BR is not a must so it can wait (also free wards). I don't know if there's some good math explaining this because i feel like just scepter and BR and wards would be cheaper anyway, i'm not a shaco player and i'm too lazy to do the math so don't ask me
On December 04 2010 07:35 ArC_man wrote: Your normal path is pretty screwed if that happens and your team isn't there to help. IMO best option after that is to do all the small camps, back/heal, and then do golem and continue. My modified path if I got screwed would be to do wraiths (use smite), wolves, stone golems (use smite again), heal (pots, etc), stack some jitbs at golem (smite should come up again), then continue.
Edit: If you're shaco, you really need to tell your team to wait in the jungle with you.
i have 42 (iirc) ranked games with shaco and i have never deviated from this path (blue first). most people will check red because of reginald's video, which is why starting at red is dumb. your jitb at the river choke prevents people from coming to check blue (if they do, you kill them). your jitb order should be: golem, choke, golem, forest choke, golem. again, i have *never* had someone disrupt me getting blue. at best, they come in just as i finish blue and i ghost away and finish the lizards later (or just kill them, you won't take any damage at blue because jitbs will take all the damage and shaco is very strong early). if you were jacked i would go wolves (no smite) wraiths (smite) golems (no smite) set up red and take it with smite, gank. after gank hit blue then clear your jungle and gank again.
On December 04 2010 10:37 SHr3DD3r wrote: I now go, Boots of mobility BR Starks If the game hasn't finished: IE/GA - depends on situation GA/IE - depends on situation
And then the game SHOULD finish lol. This build has been good for me so far. Any suggestions?
suggestion: before you get armor/MR you should get HP. there's a chart that explains why, but in summary, before you get X hp, armor/MR are much less effective. i really really wouldn't get starks on shaco unless you have 2+ other carries on your team and they want to rush damage items. he's not a support hero and starks is a support item. go zerkers->BR->IE->health items. guardian angel doesn't mean shit because you will die immediately (via no hp), revive, then die immediately again (via no hp). get a sunfire instead. or a banshee. but you're right, most of the time the game ends around the time you finish your second item after BR anyways
On December 04 2010 07:35 ArC_man wrote: Your normal path is pretty screwed if that happens and your team isn't there to help. IMO best option after that is to do all the small camps, back/heal, and then do golem and continue. My modified path if I got screwed would be to do wraiths (use smite), wolves, stone golems (use smite again), heal (pots, etc), stack some jitbs at golem (smite should come up again), then continue.
Edit: If you're shaco, you really need to tell your team to wait in the jungle with you.
i have 42 (iirc) ranked games with shaco and i have never deviated from this path (blue first). most people will check red because of reginald's video, which is why starting at red is dumb. your jitb at the river choke prevents people from coming to check blue (if they do, you kill them). your jitb order should be: golem, choke, golem, forest choke, golem. again, i have *never* had someone disrupt me getting blue. at best, they come in just as i finish blue and i ghost away and finish the lizards later (or just kill them, you won't take any damage at blue because jitbs will take all the damage and shaco is very strong early). if you were jacked i would go wolves (no smite) wraiths (smite) golems (no smite) set up red and take it with smite, gank. after gank hit blue then clear your jungle and gank again.
On December 04 2010 10:37 SHr3DD3r wrote: I now go, Boots of mobility BR Starks If the game hasn't finished: IE/GA - depends on situation GA/IE - depends on situation
And then the game SHOULD finish lol. This build has been good for me so far. Any suggestions?
suggestion: before you get armor/MR you should get HP. there's a chart that explains why, but in summary, before you get X hp, armor/MR are much less effective. i really really wouldn't get starks on shaco unless you have 2+ other carries on your team and they want to rush damage items. he's not a support hero and starks is a support item. go zerkers->BR->IE->health items. guardian angel doesn't mean shit because you will die immediately (via no hp), revive, then die immediately again (via no hp). get a sunfire instead. or a banshee. but you're right, most of the time the game ends around the time you finish your second item after BR anyways
Ok. But wouldn't Shaco need some sort of lifesteal? or should I just not consider it until later? And which hp item should I consider, Sunfire?
On December 04 2010 07:35 ArC_man wrote: Your normal path is pretty screwed if that happens and your team isn't there to help. IMO best option after that is to do all the small camps, back/heal, and then do golem and continue. My modified path if I got screwed would be to do wraiths (use smite), wolves, stone golems (use smite again), heal (pots, etc), stack some jitbs at golem (smite should come up again), then continue.
Edit: If you're shaco, you really need to tell your team to wait in the jungle with you.
i have 42 (iirc) ranked games with shaco and i have never deviated from this path (blue first). most people will check red because of reginald's video, which is why starting at red is dumb. your jitb at the river choke prevents people from coming to check blue (if they do, you kill them). your jitb order should be: golem, choke, golem, forest choke, golem. again, i have *never* had someone disrupt me getting blue. at best, they come in just as i finish blue and i ghost away and finish the lizards later (or just kill them, you won't take any damage at blue because jitbs will take all the damage and shaco is very strong early). if you were jacked i would go wolves (no smite) wraiths (smite) golems (no smite) set up red and take it with smite, gank. after gank hit blue then clear your jungle and gank again.
On December 04 2010 10:37 SHr3DD3r wrote: I now go, Boots of mobility BR Starks If the game hasn't finished: IE/GA - depends on situation GA/IE - depends on situation
And then the game SHOULD finish lol. This build has been good for me so far. Any suggestions?
suggestion: before you get armor/MR you should get HP. there's a chart that explains why, but in summary, before you get X hp, armor/MR are much less effective. i really really wouldn't get starks on shaco unless you have 2+ other carries on your team and they want to rush damage items. he's not a support hero and starks is a support item. go zerkers->BR->IE->health items. guardian angel doesn't mean shit because you will die immediately (via no hp), revive, then die immediately again (via no hp). get a sunfire instead. or a banshee. but you're right, most of the time the game ends around the time you finish your second item after BR anyways
Ok. But wouldn't Shaco need some sort of lifesteal? or should I just not consider it until later? And which hp item should I consider, Sunfire?
On December 04 2010 07:35 ArC_man wrote: Your normal path is pretty screwed if that happens and your team isn't there to help. IMO best option after that is to do all the small camps, back/heal, and then do golem and continue. My modified path if I got screwed would be to do wraiths (use smite), wolves, stone golems (use smite again), heal (pots, etc), stack some jitbs at golem (smite should come up again), then continue.
Edit: If you're shaco, you really need to tell your team to wait in the jungle with you.
i have 42 (iirc) ranked games with shaco and i have never deviated from this path (blue first). most people will check red because of reginald's video, which is why starting at red is dumb. your jitb at the river choke prevents people from coming to check blue (if they do, you kill them). your jitb order should be: golem, choke, golem, forest choke, golem. again, i have *never* had someone disrupt me getting blue. at best, they come in just as i finish blue and i ghost away and finish the lizards later (or just kill them, you won't take any damage at blue because jitbs will take all the damage and shaco is very strong early). if you were jacked i would go wolves (no smite) wraiths (smite) golems (no smite) set up red and take it with smite, gank. after gank hit blue then clear your jungle and gank again.
40+ games and no team's ever checked your blue? Lucky =)
I haven't played any Shaco since the GA/clone nerf (GA was the reason he was so fun to play imo) but basically every game I could expect to be met with some opposition at blue.
On December 03 2010 20:27 Iplaythings wrote: jungle tank shaco: (how I do it atleast) cloth 5 pot / red pot 5 pot (depends if you wanna start red buff for gank or bluebuff) boots 1 wriggles hog negatron (pump red pots from here on!) Blood thirster (or triforce) banshees later, upgrade HoG to a rhanduins/sunfire Thats how I do it atleast, I dont like rushing for baron because I wont have free wards /( inifinite jungling with wriggles then)
your damage is coming wayyyyyyyy too late with this build. if you're going for these items, get the thirster before the HoG or the negatron or you're gonna get it too late for it to matter
Its tanky, but it works since I allways find myself taking ALOT of damage and getting away with 100 ~ health with this build.
My biggest problem playing shaco was that I would allways die in a snapsecond after I engage.
And if I DO manage to get fed with this build I will just be unkillable and doing alot of damage, the damage isnt that bad.
Also I shoulda said that if I go triforce I get phage zeal or sheen before the negatron
I've pretty much completely given up on going AD carry into a late game with Shaco. No matter how many kills I get in the early/mid game, I still get destroyed late game against a semi-competent team. The only way I don't get crushed is if I don't engage in a team fight until a few seconds after the initiation, where I jump in and kill off the stragglers and non-tankies.
Problem with that though is my team is pretty much fighting 4v5 for about three seconds and that's not good. But if I engage when everyone else engages or just a second afterwards, I die instantaneously and it still becomes a 4v5 fight.
Any advice on the situation guys? I've switched to a support/harass build compensate for my late game weakness. I now almost always go wriggles, mobility boots, phantom dancer +flasks to snipe off towers. It annoys the shit out of the other team and allows my team to engage at another tower while the other team is scrambling to take care of me.
So far the switch works decent for me, though it often leads to unnecessarily longer games since it takes 3 or 4 trips take out a tower with no minion support. Obviously it's faster if my minions are pushing hard but I usually don't get that luxury.
Any help guys? Am I doing basically what I should be doing? Or am I reading the situation completely wrong? For the record, I am pretty good with early game shaco since I usually play with at least 2 other friends and we can coordinate well on skype.
On December 07 2010 00:52 AtlaS wrote: The only way I don't get crushed is if I don't engage in a team fight until a few seconds after the initiation, where I jump in and kill off the stragglers and non-tankies.
So i just started playing shaco and i must say is damn fun and i love it gonna made it my main, im running AP reds, life ren per lvl yellows and CD reduction blues with flat life quins, some advice to improve this???(Im running this cause this are the runes that i owned for playing mundo XD)
On December 07 2010 00:52 AtlaS wrote: I've pretty much completely given up on going AD carry into a late game with Shaco. No matter how many kills I get in the early/mid game, I still get destroyed late game against a semi-competent team. The only way I don't get crushed is if I don't engage in a team fight until a few seconds after the initiation, where I jump in and kill off the stragglers and non-tankies.
Problem with that though is my team is pretty much fighting 4v5 for about three seconds and that's not good. But if I engage when everyone else engages or just a second afterwards, I die instantaneously and it still becomes a 4v5 fight.
Any advice on the situation guys? I've switched to a support/harass build compensate for my late game weakness. I now almost always go wriggles, mobility boots, phantom dancer +flasks to snipe off towers. It annoys the shit out of the other team and allows my team to engage at another tower while the other team is scrambling to take care of me.
So far the switch works decent for me, though it often leads to unnecessarily longer games since it takes 3 or 4 trips take out a tower with no minion support. Obviously it's faster if my minions are pushing hard but I usually don't get that luxury.
Any help guys? Am I doing basically what I should be doing? Or am I reading the situation completely wrong? For the record, I am pretty good with early game shaco since I usually play with at least 2 other friends and we can coordinate well on skype.
lategame shaco just pushes lanes and backdoors while his teammates fight don't even bother teamfighting unless you can pick off stragglers run to a different lane and push 2 towers instead. force the other team to send 2 people to stop you pushing at all times (because shaco will kill anyone 1 on 1, they can't send just 1 person) to give your team 4v3 fights instead of 4v5s
On December 07 2010 09:59 Odds wrote: Anyone try Ghostblade after wriggles on Shaco? feels vicious
shaco needs to be more pokey, and Ghostblade probally wont do much at shaco without IE
Shaco cant rely that much on autoattack without having build tanky because he is so squishy, that he needs to act like a poker in teamfights, thats why trinity / BT is good for him because it grants him more surviveabillity while still having damage.
I played somewhat alot with shaco, and the madreds super dps shaco only works when you noobstomp, or for cleanup, but even in cleanup you need banshees / rhanduins / GA / a sunfire (one / 2 of them is enough usually).
the only reason I'd go for ghostblade if I allready had surviveabillity AND IE, other than that its passive would only be good for running away.
On December 07 2010 09:59 Odds wrote: Anyone try Ghostblade after wriggles on Shaco? feels vicious
shaco needs to be more pokey, and Ghostblade probally wont do much at shaco without IE
Shaco cant rely that much on autoattack without having build tanky because he is so squishy, that he needs to act like a poker in teamfights, thats why trinity / BT is good for him because it grants him more surviveabillity while still having damage.
I played somewhat alot with shaco, and the madreds super dps shaco only works when you noobstomp, or for cleanup, but even in cleanup you need banshees / rhanduins / GA / a sunfire (one / 2 of them is enough usually).
the only reason I'd go for ghostblade if I allready had surviveabillity AND IE, other than that its passive would only be good for running away.
On December 07 2010 09:59 Odds wrote: Anyone try Ghostblade after wriggles on Shaco? feels vicious
shaco needs to be more pokey, and Ghostblade probally wont do much at shaco without IE
Shaco cant rely that much on autoattack without having build tanky because he is so squishy, that he needs to act like a poker in teamfights, thats why trinity / BT is good for him because it grants him more surviveabillity while still having damage.
I played somewhat alot with shaco, and the madreds super dps shaco only works when you noobstomp, or for cleanup, but even in cleanup you need banshees / rhanduins / GA / a sunfire (one / 2 of them is enough usually).
the only reason I'd go for ghostblade if I allready had surviveabillity AND IE, other than that its passive would only be good for running away.
Makes sense to me.
what are the rest of your build like? Brutalizer is nice on shaco but the crit wont do much without IE, thats my viewpoint
I keep fortitude elixir up 100% of the time after completing brutalizer to stay relevant midgame
he's good for padding k/d/a but he wont win you games outright unless your team actively helps you counter jungle them and you start controlling all four buffs.
I've been building BR into IE then GA followed by more damage (usually BT). By the time you get your Guardian Angel you can just deceive in on their carry, instagib them then do massive damage before you either lose your GA or you deceive away. If they focus you and you go into GA respawn you can just deceive away, possibly coming in for another backstab if you think it will be beneficial to the team (yes, sometimes this means dying). So far it has been very successful. While GA is down I usually just push lanes or backdoor towers.
Everytime I see a lane shaco on my team I get a bit sad, and then when we lose I get depressed because he hasn't hit lvl 11 yet and done nothing in team fights
open ap tome, rush for quadruple ap tomes to get hextech revolver (this one first, spellvamp for jungling), sheen, and malady. Turn sheen into lichbane. afterwards, get whatever the hell ap items u want. Max shiv first, 1 lvl of decieve at 3 max jitbs second, naturally get r whenever possible.
i should note its probably note that i dont like the reginald path for this, better to open blue buff instead and abuse the hell out of jitbs. the jungling is a bit slower, but its really fun, and you do alot of dmg ^.^
On December 10 2010 18:04 barbsq wrote: new boss jungle shaco build
open ap tome, rush for quadruple ap tomes to get hextech revolver (this one first, spellvamp for jungling), sheen, and malady. Turn sheen into lichbane. afterwards, get whatever the hell ap items u want. Max shiv first, 1 lvl of decieve at 3 max jitbs second, naturally get r whenever possible.
i should note its probably note that i dont like the reginald path for this, better to open blue buff instead and abuse the hell out of jitbs. the jungling is a bit slower, but its really fun, and you do alot of dmg ^.^
On December 07 2010 00:52 AtlaS wrote: The only way I don't get crushed is if I don't engage in a team fight until a few seconds after the initiation, where I jump in and kill off the stragglers and non-tankies.
This is exactly what you're supposed to do
Problem is if your team is already at a disadvantage. If you wait, your team gets crushed. You don't wait, you get crushed.
Not really. It's only a matter of seconds that you should wait before engaging. Just the time it takes for Malphite to ult in, Ryze to spell flux, then everyone squishy caught in that will likely be (at the very most) on 60% HP, making them your ideal target to start beating on.
That way, you take out one of their key champs and have the luxury of being able to choose to 5v4 them (or 5.5v4 them, if you whip your clone out), or just back out to safety if you are at low health.
edit - Oh, I think I must have misread your post, cascades. Feel free to ignore what I just said as it doesn't really adress the issue you raised.
On December 13 2010 02:14 LaNague wrote: has anyone here saved the reginald guide on shaco? he removed it completely from his guide and i forgot what runes he used for him.
i have enough IP to buy a new set for shaco, so if enyone remembers it, please post.
you could just look at his profile and see that he uses apen reds, aspeed yellows and blues, and 2hp quints with 1 apen quint as his 'dps/jungle' page
Having seen Reginald's video, what exactly is the advantage of doing twin golems and lizard first instead of blue. In practice runs, I can usually clear the jungle faster if I start at wolves and blue (about 4:30, which seems a bit slow, but I don't have an optimal rune setup yet). As for items, I really cringe at the idea of buying Wriggel's Lantern as it seems like an unnecessary distraction from getting bloodrazors and more damaging items.
Don't focus so much on how fast you are clearing the jungle. Anyone can kill creeps. It doesn't matter how fast you clear it, it matters how fast you gank/dragon/control buffs/counter jungle.
On December 13 2010 18:09 Kratisto wrote: Having seen Reginald's video, what exactly is the advantage of doing twin golems and lizard first instead of blue. In practice runs, I can usually clear the jungle faster if I start at wolves and blue (about 4:30, which seems a bit slow, but I don't have an optimal rune setup yet). As for items, I really cringe at the idea of buying Wriggel's Lantern as it seems like an unnecessary distraction from getting bloodrazors and more damaging items.
It is the fastest way, noone has found a way to do it faster with shaco (3:45) The faster you clear the jungle, the safer you are from ganks from the enemy jungler, the better you can gank lanes or their jungler etc.
Btw, if you look for a fast jungle route, you need to start at the red side. The damage bonus is significant.
Playing EU Solo Q Ranked 1500~ and good Shaco players are just destroying my team occasionally when he gets picked. He just ganks clueless people through invis and gets easy kills. Them getting FBed by a lvl 2 red gank is so predictable. Had another game were he destroyed our jungle Olaf too. =/
I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread nor did I see this in the patch notes, but did anyone notice that turrets now prefer shacos clone rather than minion? what the hell, backdooring was our main purpose late game and now they really hurt one of our best abilities to backdoor with
its better, it removes shaco from the map completely for a short time.
Also, reginald will be releasing a shaco tutorial/guide video in the next days. He knows what he is doing with shaco. I guess it will be posted at solomid first.
On December 13 2010 02:14 LaNague wrote: has anyone here saved the reginald guide on shaco? he removed it completely from his guide and i forgot what runes he used for him.
i have enough IP to buy a new set for shaco, so if enyone remembers it, please post.
on his youtube channel jungle shaco one it is armpen marks/crit chance seals/crit damage glyphs/arm pen quints
On December 13 2010 02:14 LaNague wrote: has anyone here saved the reginald guide on shaco? he removed it completely from his guide and i forgot what runes he used for him.
i have enough IP to buy a new set for shaco, so if enyone remembers it, please post.
on his youtube channel jungle shaco one it is armpen marks/crit chance seals/crit damage glyphs/arm pen quints
Wow thats and ABSURD amount of damage from his runes.
Can only imagine the awesomescauce redpot ganks id be able to pull off with that :D
Ok so I've been going wriggles, hog, boots of mob, br. I've seen a lot of Shaco's go 2 dblades after wriggles but I'd rather get a HoG since wriggles is enoug lifesteal. and as Shaco i don't worry about AD early on. I also run hp/lvl yellows and mr/lvl blues so I'm fairly tanky early to mid game.
Also, what do people get as summoner, ghost or ignite?
On December 23 2010 11:01 HazMat wrote: Ok so I've been going wriggles, hog, boots of mob, br. I've seen a lot of Shaco's go 2 dblades after wriggles but I'd rather get a HoG since wriggles is enoug lifesteal. and as Shaco i don't worry about AD early on. I also run hp/lvl yellows and mr/lvl blues so I'm fairly tanky early to mid game.
Also, what do people get as summoner, ghost or ignite?
Ghost not only helps you chase (and gank) better, but is a desperately needed escape mechanism for teamfights where you are forced to Deceive in.
It also enables you to pull off some godlike jukes.
Also, what do people get as summoner, ghost or ignite?
Ghost. Having the ability to escape from almost anything is just too good to pass up. I would say it depends on how often you think Ignite has landed you a kill you would have otherwise missed. With Shaco's ganking ability? I would say not often...
Also, what do people get as summoner, ghost or ignite?
Ghost. Having the ability to escape from almost anything is just too good to pass up. I would say it depends on how often you think Ignite has landed you a kill you would have otherwise missed. With Shaco's ganking ability? I would say not often...
Ya, I usually go ghost but Jougo was telling me to get ignite instead because Shaco needs early kills. While I agree with this red buff shaco should almost never fail a gank.
yeah paper-thin shaco is a joke. no tower dive ability and focus fire crushes him even early on. i run defensive runes on him and at least 14 in defensive masteries, and also usually grab a quick HoG or giant's belt
Ew, I tried Wriggles->Bloodrazor tonight, and I just felt so useless in between the two items. There's just a huge gap in Shaco's power curve going for a build like that.
On December 28 2010 18:56 dnastyx wrote: Ew, I tried Wriggles->Bloodrazor tonight, and I just felt so useless in between the two items. There's just a huge gap in Shaco's power curve going for a build like that.
On December 28 2010 18:56 dnastyx wrote: Ew, I tried Wriggles->Bloodrazor tonight, and I just felt so useless in between the two items. There's just a huge gap in Shaco's power curve going for a build like that.
On December 31 2010 19:24 HazMat wrote: w,e,q. E > Q > W.
reginald upgrades W first
L2Read?
pretty sure he means maxes W first, L2commonsense before being rude :/
I think it depends on your play style. Reg tends to set up JitB traps, so it makes sense that he would max it first, however, not everyone plays shaco that way. I usually just run around ganking people on the move, so I like to max deceive first for the extra burst.
I thought of something funny to do as Shaco but I'm not sure if it's viable. After you buy your items asap, ghost towards the enemy's lizard camp and start jitb'ing it up to get ready to steal it. When wraiths spawn smite the blue one and then kill the lizard, killing the rest of the wraiths if you want to be a bigger dick to the other jungler.
From there on, either gank if people are overextending, or go to your blue and continue jungling through the normal blue->wolves->wraiths->golem. I say skip lizard and just place a jitb in the bush incase the enemy jungler comes to steal it, so you can prolong the duration of your own red for ganking purposes.
So this basically screws over the enemy jungler, moreso than a wraith jack would since red is so important for ganking. Is it viable though? I say use ghost at the beginning as to avoid anyone that could possible see you going from mid->bush->lizard.
Problem is if they pop your boxes your jungling is terrislow. What u gonna do, steal ur solomid's exp and gold? :p But yes stealing red is perfectly viable, hopefully with some assistance from your team it is extremely potent as well. If you get your team to rush to the red with you, and a poor garen facechecks dat brush, he should be easy pickings for your boxes + team. Firstblood will generally offset the boxpopping, as well as you should be able to wraithjack with ease.
shaco jungling slow if he loses boxes is a common misconception. playing hundreds of shaco games obviously I have been first blooded at my lizard and golem more then a few times. its only a minor setback when i compare my level to even the greatest junglers like warwick and nunu.
On January 07 2011 08:54 Brees wrote: shaco jungling slow if he loses boxes is a common misconception. playing hundreds of shaco games obviously I have been first blooded at my lizard and golem more then a few times. its only a minor setback when i compare my level to even the greatest junglers like warwick and nunu.
do you stream or something? It's hard to find good shaco vids lol
On January 07 2011 08:54 Brees wrote: shaco jungling slow if he loses boxes is a common misconception. playing hundreds of shaco games obviously I have been first blooded at my lizard and golem more then a few times. its only a minor setback when i compare my level to even the greatest junglers like warwick and nunu.
it's certainly not game ending, but i would say that shaco gets more slowed down if he dies at blue or red than junglers like ww or rammus. As for stealing buffs, one kinda cool path I have recently been taking is starting at blue, then immediately going to their red (assuming their jungler is one that starts at blue) and boxing it up in the brush. After setting up 5ish boxes, you can either wait for their jungler to come to red and hopefully kill them, or just steal their lizard. The couple times I have tried it, it has worked pretty well, but it's not something to do everygame for sure.
On January 07 2011 08:54 Brees wrote: shaco jungling slow if he loses boxes is a common misconception. playing hundreds of shaco games obviously I have been first blooded at my lizard and golem more then a few times. its only a minor setback when i compare my level to even the greatest junglers like warwick and nunu.
isn't it the 30-40 second slow on your level 2/3 gank that hurts the most? Of course you can still jungle at reasonable speed, especially with timely boxes and knowing how to backstab with fear. its just that the enemy lanes don't have to fear a 2/3 gank and play more passively for quite a while or risk getting punished (im scared shitless if we don't have a cv esp cuz i can't creep count anymore) at an extremely quick time anymore that makes the biggest diff imo
On January 10 2011 15:27 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I might start playing shaco in ranked over WW, not sure yet.
You should give it a try in ranked its so fun ^^ just make sure your team keeps u protected at the set up for the jungle... i have been molested so many times while my team was just dancing around....
On January 11 2011 04:06 Brees wrote: warwick is extremely weak compared to shaco once you master him (unless you have a heal comp of course, then warwick is just a 1v5 wrecking ball)
Totally agree. I've been playing just a bit of Shaco in ranked (not enough to say much though and I'm low elo), and I absolutely would choose Shaco over WW in almost all cases, I just don't feel the control over jungle as much when I play WW.
I feel like I don't really have any control if enemy jungle walks into my jungle when I'm WW, especially now that I can't see when their creeps pause for a long time now, other than being super map aware all the time and trying to dodge them... Whereas with Shaco, I feel like I can just go around anywhere and do as I please wrecking their jungle anyway anyhow, totally throwing them off.
What do you guys consider the core build for Shaco? I generally go Wriggle's + IE but I've been considering Wriggle's + Bloodthirster for the extra AD and lifesteal. IE is more appealing to me because of its unique + sheen proc with deceive, or is that just mindless theorycrafting?
Also, are merc treads worth it over mob boots against certain team comps? I almost always go for the latter.
Cloth+pots->razors->boots->wriggles->hexdrinker->boots5->Trinity/GB/BT (your choice). Pretty much the core items. Boots 5 > Mercs imo, since if you play him right you won't be copping alot of CC anyway. Hexdrinker is vital as it allows you to survive non-bads who instantly run from Shaco ganks, and the proc works on the image too. BT is a great item, but its components take kinda long to buy and leaves a huge power gap compared to GB/Trinity where all the components benefit and are easy to acquire. Wouldn't recomment Madreds Shaco as its so situational and cost-ineffective, but hey just my opinion.
Everyone has their own playstyle so I won't be surprised if people build other stuff.
I started playing Shaco in ranked and my builds are doing okay, lost a game to chauster/saintvicious when they went fucking beast mode on me but I've been crushing every other game. I hate feeling weak during parts of the game where I would be crushing with Warwick though, but I know I'm trading it for a retarded sick gank phase.
On January 13 2011 02:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I started playing Shaco in ranked and my builds are doing okay, lost a game to chauster/saintvicious when they went fucking beast mode on me but I've been crushing every other game. I hate feeling weak during parts of the game where I would be crushing with Warwick though, but I know I'm trading it for a retarded sick gank phase.
I would really like to see some of your games with shaco XD do you stream or something like that?
On January 13 2011 02:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I started playing Shaco in ranked and my builds are doing okay, lost a game to chauster/saintvicious when they went fucking beast mode on me but I've been crushing every other game. I hate feeling weak during parts of the game where I would be crushing with Warwick though, but I know I'm trading it for a retarded sick gank phase.
I would really like to see some of your games with shaco XD do you stream or something like that?
Link to the list of streams, 5hit sometimes streams on Solomid 2. Also they have stream status checker on their page as well
Ok, I recently bought Shaco, but Im not sure at all how to build him. I've tried some Lantern > boots > BT stuff, but I dont really know how viable that is. What are your builds? :x
I don't mean to be an ass, but did you even glance at this thread before posting? The EXACT same question was asked and answered by a few different people like 5 posts ago.
On January 14 2011 05:32 arnath wrote: I don't mean to be an ass, but did you even glance at this thread before posting? The EXACT same question was asked and answered by a few different people like 5 posts ago.
I read through it, but everyone's saying like completely different builds. I figured someone had come up with something awesome after that.
On January 14 2011 05:32 arnath wrote: I don't mean to be an ass, but did you even glance at this thread before posting? The EXACT same question was asked and answered by a few different people like 5 posts ago.
I read through it, but everyone's saying like completely different builds. I figured someone had come up with something awesome after that.
The thing is that every build can work for diferent aspects of the game, I play him with lantern=>Boots+upgrade to what ever you need(usually atack speed boots or mobility), then shen(if things aren't going that well, if they are(meaning you got some kills) get a +50AD sword into IE, after that i usually get a mallet for more hp since even playing him really well sometimes u get caught on some cc(even by total luck from the other team ) and your so squishy... after that i get the shen(or the IE if you build shen first) and usually the game ends
i think it would be better to have kind of a 'these are the items that work on shaco'
sort of thing, with some pointers to item synergy as well as at what time you want to get the items, just kus shaco builds seem to be all over the place. I think the only constant is a madreds razors, whether you're getting wriggles or mbr.
tho, saying that, i do have my silly 4amp tome shaco build that works surprisingly well ^.^
Am I doing something wrong? The new MR changes seemed to have crushed Shaco. I can't get red, blue wraith and min golems, or if I do, I can't follow up with a gank from being too low. I just learned 2 days ago too... ff
pretty sure its just a placement thing, tried it a few hours ago once i died to red the second time i did cleared with plenty of health
you need to drop the box behind the right golem after it gets feared once and hope that box will keep one or both of the mini golems aggro'd so you can have almost full health after the camp
I find he is a hair slower, but still doable. Just make sure you take the time to drop an extra box if you think you may need it. Better to give up 10 sec waiting for an extra and clear a camp for sure and quickly than take time to do it by hand and die in the process.
On January 14 2011 05:32 arnath wrote: I don't mean to be an ass, but did you even glance at this thread before posting? The EXACT same question was asked and answered by a few different people like 5 posts ago.
I read through it, but everyone's saying like completely different builds. I figured someone had come up with something awesome after that.
the thing is, there really aren't any items except madred's razors that are actually 'good' on shaco. just some items are of acceptable quality and others aren't
Can you not skip another point in offense for Greed (if you don't max offense anyways)? Not sure which masteries you get exactly, but if you can for example trade a point in Offensive Mastery or Alacrity for Greed, I would do so immediately.
I prefer 16/0/14 so I can get Greed and Meditation as well as Utility Mastery. My actual damage output is reduced by next to nothing, and I can spam boxes much more freely regardless of whether I happen to have blue buff.
Can you post a picture of 11-0-19? I asked a lot of people and everyone uses different everything. dicksuckchan said 20/0/10 and aspeed yellow/blue without any explanation
On January 21 2011 03:09 zulu_nation8 wrote: Can you post a picture of 11-0-19? I asked a lot of people and everyone uses different everything. dicksuckchan said 20/0/10 and aspeed yellow/blue without any explanation
because regi uses aspeed yellow/blue To be fair, 11-0-19 makes shaco a lot less dependent on blue buff and gives him some nice benefits like cdr and movespeed, which never hurt. 20-0-10 gives faster camp clear times with its cdr, aspd and arpen, brute strength and crit damage.
Regi's playstyle with shaco is fairly buff dependent, and to that end he is very good at ganking the enemy jungler. He plays a really solo q style, and doesn't really give up his buffs too easily to his teammates either. those slightly faster clear times can sometimes make the difference between ganking an enemy olaf at smallgols at level 3 (if he started blue) and missing him entirely, i suppose. i guess its up to playstyle
afaik the "regi route" is smite big wraith kill smallgols and red with boxes + autoattack? You kill the red with autos and boxes anyway, don't think you do smite on it.
your autoattack applies your slow as well, so i suppose the optimal gank pattern is q->backstab + crit -> box and autos and e as needed.
if you can catch them with a decieve -> autoattack, do that. else use e to apply the slow. if you're using the e as a source of damage, use it inbetween autoattacks for maximum damage output.
On January 21 2011 15:00 Khul Sadukar wrote: So the verdict is Shaco can still jungle well?
I'm looking for another jungler and deciding between shaco and trundle.
he seemed perfectly doable in a random normal i played today, i figure that putting boxes well so that you can get backstabs is a bit more important than usual for health and clear times tho (as in if you don't do it right at blue ur kinda fked lol)
Regi's route does red w/out smite. You smite the blue wraith in that route so you get level 3 with red + stone golems + blue wraith. Your smite will be up for blue if you choose to do blue right after red. It's nice to get level 3 because you can either choose to gank (take Q) or you can choose to go get blue and continue jungling.
If the path isn't working for you, you can smite red or one of the small golems (you'll be slower of course).
On January 21 2011 16:35 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm definitely doing something wrong since my health is usually way too low by the time I do red. How do I take the least damage while jungling?
eat lots of pots, use boxes to avoid damage from big lizard (and smallgols if u decide to not gank).
On January 21 2011 16:35 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm definitely doing something wrong since my health is usually way too low by the time I do red. How do I take the least damage while jungling?
try waiting an extra 10 seconds to place another box at the lizard before you fight it
Place the box right behind the creep as soon as the original jitbs trigger so the focus goes from jitb a to jitb b. I find twin golems the most annoying and placement on the top side to be trickier than bottom side.
Also, putting an extra jitb means you will have to wait for decieve... like wait real long... cuz no mana.
On January 21 2011 16:35 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm definitely doing something wrong since my health is usually way too low by the time I do red. How do I take the least damage while jungling?
try waiting an extra 10 seconds to place another box at the lizard before you fight it
If you want to try this, you definitely need to do it in a practice game before a real game. Jitbs last only 90 seconds so if you waste too much time on small golems and wait to put an extra jitb at red, there will be a chance that your previous jitb(s) might expire.
So I've tried many times but I just can't do the regi route. Either I get down to almost no hp after lizard and have to bluepill or I can't even finish lizard. I'm running apen/mp5/mp5/hp, 11/0/19 or 20/0/10. I've tried starting red after smiting big wraith but I don't know where to go after that. What's a good and safe route people do nowadays?
nvm I just did it with slightly less than half hp, how much hp should I have?
On January 23 2011 13:42 zulu_nation8 wrote: So I've tried many times but I just can't do the regi route. Either I get down to almost no hp after lizard and have to bluepill or I can't even finish lizard. I'm running apen/mp5/mp5/hp, 11/0/19 or 20/0/10. I've tried starting red after smiting big wraith but I don't know where to go after that. What's a good and safe route people do nowadays?
nvm I just did it with slightly less than half hp, how much hp should I have?
I suggest running armor seals and 1/14/15 masteries, gives you the beefiness you need.
Personally I run offensive quints and reds on jungle shaco (ASPD or Armorpene, depends if I start on regi route or blue).
but you should all try starting blue,putting ALL your boxes there. at 1:40 smite the big wolf, finish it off and run off to kill golem. It will have 400 or so hp iirc (one of my boxes allways hits small lizard instead). Then you run off to get their lizard buff and one of their small golems, now you can gank their jungler, mid or top with dual buff ghost and around half HP. You might not be able to do one of the small golems sometimes, if they have a fast jungler (like rammus / udyr). But you will allways get the lizard, though it will be close so I suggest you take their lizard into the brush. If you dont feel comfy with stealing their red (If you think their jungler is fast or for some reason skipping wraiths, then do it in your own jungle. You will be level 3-4 same time as the midlane.
The personal reason why I consider the regi route a gimmick is that if you want to play a passive shaco style or if the lanes somehow isnt ripe for ganking then you can use the blue buff to spamm E for a way better jungle speed bonus than redbuff is. Sometimes I even wait with Q til lvl 4 if no lanes are gankable. Remember if a lane suddenly is gankable you still have ghost, red and a ranged slow. You can fucken kill them.
One of the amazing things about shaco is that he is probally the fastest dragoners in game right now, he is one of the fastest junglers to reach lvl 6 + wriggles if he gets some ganks in and skips boots for a faster wriggles you can do drag at lvl 6 by letting clone / jitb tank it. Sometimes dragon is annoying and attack you, then you can make him atack your clone by. 1: Deceiving 2: throwing a jitb you generally wanna try to throw the JITB first, since if you put deceive on cooldown you dont have any escape mechanics and then youre suddenly very vulnerable to ganks.
This was my take on the Shaco playstyle early game, lategame revolves about running around being an ass to the enemies sidelane and throwing jitb's everywhere around where you push so you can just run away from them :D
oh and my build is cloth armor + 5pot, wriggles/madreds + boots followed by the one you didnt get before, boots of mobillity, then triforce if its gonna be a backdoor game (youre better at running away + sheen is baws vs turrets). Madreds if its gonna be a baron focused game. after wriggles / boots of mobillity get a negatron / red elixir whenever needed. Build the negatron into whatever you need it. FoN for poke game, Banshees if you have to teamfight, quicksilver if you really cant get out of CC (mercs might be recommended in this case too). Games usually dont last that long after trinity / madreds but I'd follow trinity up with IE and madreds up with BT (not sure if malady is better than BT in this scenario, havent really played that lategame).
On January 24 2011 11:59 FlameSworD wrote: and btw the build i do is laturn zerk 3dblade infiegde ;o its pretty good cause your so strong after u buy dblades
why do you need the dblades? the only stat really significant from those 3 dblades is the HP (as sheen does more burst damage, a BF, while admittedly more expensive, would give far better AD benefits for not that much more price and build into something useful, and wriggles should give enough lifesteal to keep your hp up in the jungle and since you a melee champ you would be lucky to be nonstop autoing for lifesteal like a ranged carry could).
just straight up rushing iedge or building into sheen if you need the dps would probably be more efficient (getting some EHP if you need the survivability really badly, but tankshaco probably isn't the best way to play him lol).
On January 23 2011 13:42 zulu_nation8 wrote: So I've tried many times but I just can't do the regi route. Either I get down to almost no hp after lizard and have to bluepill or I can't even finish lizard. I'm running apen/mp5/mp5/hp, 11/0/19 or 20/0/10. I've tried starting red after smiting big wraith but I don't know where to go after that. What's a good and safe route people do nowadays?
nvm I just did it with slightly less than half hp, how much hp should I have?
I suggest running armor seals and 1/14/15 masteries, gives you the beefiness you need.
Personally I run offensive quints and reds on jungle shaco (ASPD or Armorpene, depends if I start on regi route or blue).
but you should all try starting blue,putting ALL your boxes there. at 1:40 smite the big wolf, finish it off and run off to kill golem. It will have 400 or so hp iirc (one of my boxes allways hits small lizard instead). Then you run off to get their lizard buff and one of their small golems, now you can gank their jungler, mid or top with dual buff ghost and around half HP. You might not be able to do one of the small golems sometimes, if they have a fast jungler (like rammus / udyr). But you will allways get the lizard, though it will be close so I suggest you take their lizard into the brush. If you dont feel comfy with stealing their red (If you think their jungler is fast or for some reason skipping wraiths, then do it in your own jungle. You will be level 3-4 same time as the midlane.
The personal reason why I consider the regi route a gimmick is that if you want to play a passive shaco style or if the lanes somehow isnt ripe for ganking then you can use the blue buff to spamm E for a way better jungle speed bonus than redbuff is. Sometimes I even wait with Q til lvl 4 if no lanes are gankable. Remember if a lane suddenly is gankable you still have ghost, red and a ranged slow. You can fucken kill them.
One of the amazing things about shaco is that he is probally the fastest dragoners in game right now, he is one of the fastest junglers to reach lvl 6 + wriggles if he gets some ganks in and skips boots for a faster wriggles you can do drag at lvl 6 by letting clone / jitb tank it. Sometimes dragon is annoying and attack you, then you can make him atack your clone by. 1: Deceiving 2: throwing a jitb you generally wanna try to throw the JITB first, since if you put deceive on cooldown you dont have any escape mechanics and then youre suddenly very vulnerable to ganks.
This was my take on the Shaco playstyle early game, lategame revolves about running around being an ass to the enemies sidelane and throwing jitb's everywhere around where you push so you can just run away from them :D
oh and my build is cloth armor + 5pot, wriggles/madreds + boots followed by the one you didnt get before, boots of mobillity, then triforce if its gonna be a backdoor game (youre better at running away + sheen is baws vs turrets). Madreds if its gonna be a baron focused game. after wriggles / boots of mobillity get a negatron / red elixir whenever needed. Build the negatron into whatever you need it. FoN for poke game, Banshees if you have to teamfight, quicksilver if you really cant get out of CC (mercs might be recommended in this case too). Games usually dont last that long after trinity / madreds but I'd follow trinity up with IE and madreds up with BT (not sure if malady is better than BT in this scenario, havent really played that lategame).
only real benefit from taking blue first is the element of surprise (as most teams expect a shaco to start red). red buff start is not only faster for clearing the jungle, but gives the jungler a very viable option to counterjungle if they get a good cv or the opportunity to gank, and forces the enemy to play more defensively than they would otherwise. now that I mention it, I'm not sure if (the faster clear time) is still the case, but seeing as a lot of a shaco who starts at blue's damage comes from his spell spam i would assume that it still is.
also, if you are planning on giving the second red to your carry in mid, it will generally be more helpful as they will have their first b and items (around 8-9) and will be able to make better use of it with boots + whatever else they have gotten. if you start blue first the timing is a bit awkward (around the time a dragon fight should be going down is when the red has a second respawn, 10-11ish) and the carry will usually still have been on their first b, wouldn't really have any benefit over taking the red at 8-9.
FoN is a mediocre item on shaco, he makes no use of the HP regen passive and the slight movespeed boost would be better gotten from trinity or ghostblade. as for MRes, bveil is superior in almost anyway as it gives better survivability (mana + health + mres + great passive) and the passive is probably better for a poke game anyway as it prevents them from catching you in a sea of cc before you can decieve away. which leads me to ask, why the extreme movespeed stacking (mobility, triforce, FoN) when you have one of the best blinks in the game and a projectile dodge? sounds like a great pubstomp build but completely wrecked by any cc and coordination at all.
Triple D-blade can be pretty good if your enemies are bad, since for a while you can dive into several people and cause a mess while everyone on your team cleansup.
It's counter-productive when they don't get baited as easily.
On January 25 2011 04:34 Juicyfruit wrote: Triple D-blade can be pretty good if your enemies are bad, since for a while you can dive into several people and cause a mess while everyone on your team cleansup.
It's counter-productive when they don't get baited as easily.
if you "dive into several people" i don't see why you wouldn't die, bad or not. 300 hp and 12% lifesteal doesn't make you invincible or anything. using dblades as an excuse to become an initiator on a really squishy heroes usually doesn't end up too well lol
and playing with the assumption that "my enemies are bad" usually isn't a good way to win lol. if you do build up an early game lead by feeding off your enemies, the best way to extend this lead further is to build strong items before they can. i don't see why you would get triple dblade after wriggles, because wriggles covers a lot of what the dblades does with a great passive, and getting sheen increases your burst on both creeps and champions in comparison to dblade stack. it also builds into triforce, which is always welcome on shaco lategame. the difference between a kassadin with a catalyst, boots, ward is huge as compared to a kass with mana crystal, ruby crystal, boots, and wards + pots. they don't have to burn further money on regen that an item that will build into useful things later would also give, and will get said useful things faster as such.
On January 25 2011 04:38 NeoIllusions wrote: FoN is a terrible item for Shaco. He simply doesn't have the health pool to make efficient use out of FoN's regen stats.
As for anti-poking, I don't see how you can beat the spell block from Banshee's.
There's a reason why most Shaco's go Banshee's as their first survivability item (Sunfire is a far second).
Dont ask me what i was thinking when I wrote that part about FoN.
Nevertheless I dont see why u shouldnt start at blue when you can hurt the opposing junglers abillity to gank ALOT without hampering your own. Thats why i think blue route is better. Its also alot more flexible, in that from when you finish golem you can help mid, go own red or steal opponents red.
I think its a matter of playstyle, but to me the regi route isnt satisfying, in that matter.
On January 25 2011 04:38 NeoIllusions wrote: FoN is a terrible item for Shaco. He simply doesn't have the health pool to make efficient use out of FoN's regen stats.
As for anti-poking, I don't see how you can beat the spell block from Banshee's.
There's a reason why most Shaco's go Banshee's as their first survivability item (Sunfire is a far second).
Dont ask me what i was thinking when I wrote that part about FoN.
Nevertheless I dont see why u shouldnt start at blue when you can hurt the opposing junglers abillity to gank ALOT without hampering your own. Thats why i think blue route is better. Its also alot more flexible, in that from when you finish golem you can help mid, go own red or steal opponents red.
I think its a matter of playstyle, but to me the regi route isnt satisfying, in that matter.
Never commented on your jungle path, simply your FoN suggestion.
If you've ever taken note of my jungle champion guides, all of them suggest going Blue first. Shaco included.
On January 25 2011 04:38 NeoIllusions wrote: FoN is a terrible item for Shaco. He simply doesn't have the health pool to make efficient use out of FoN's regen stats.
As for anti-poking, I don't see how you can beat the spell block from Banshee's.
There's a reason why most Shaco's go Banshee's as their first survivability item (Sunfire is a far second).
Dont ask me what i was thinking when I wrote that part about FoN.
Nevertheless I dont see why u shouldnt start at blue when you can hurt the opposing junglers abillity to gank ALOT without hampering your own. Thats why i think blue route is better. Its also alot more flexible, in that from when you finish golem you can help mid, go own red or steal opponents red.
I think its a matter of playstyle, but to me the regi route isnt satisfying, in that matter.
Never commented on your jungle path, simply your FoN suggestion.
If you've ever taken note of my jungle champion guides, all of them suggest going Blue first. Shaco included.
I don't know, I used to go blue as Shaco, but I feel I couldn't gank until at least after Wraiths, and to ensure the kill, I'd have to get a red, which required me setting up more boxes there, delaying my gank to almost 5 mins (somewhere around like 4:30 to finish red was my fastest time I think).
After going Regi's build, I almost never go the blue start anymore unless my boxes are popped @ red, the gank comes so early and it feels so strong (~3 mins if I remember correctly). I just feel starting red is great, because as Reginald states in his tutorial, "You can always fallback to blue as a backup plan, but you can't switch from blue to red", unless this MR buff on jungle was big enough that 2-3 boxes + smite can't take blue anymore?
The thing is it's the weakest out of all possible starting routes for shaco when you do.
Playing in some of the higher level games with good shaco players has got me some tips from them. Always start red and stack your boxes in that bush with your team there as backup. Getting red for a fast gank is mad important.
Ive been trying shaco for a few games without much success. Even lowby 1400 elo's go disrupt shaco's boxes at red and minigolem.
Question tho: assuming theres absolutely no good ganks available based on tanky lanes or beefy healers or everyone has flash or somethin, would starting blue first or red first be the quickest way to get a lantern and lvl 6 or 7 to do dragon?
On January 26 2011 17:07 TheGreenMachine wrote: Ive been trying shaco for a few games without much success. Even lowby 1400 elo's go disrupt shaco's boxes at red and minigolem.
Question tho: assuming theres absolutely no good ganks available based on tanky lanes or beefy healers or everyone has flash or somethin, would starting blue first or red first be the quickest way to get a lantern and lvl 6 or 7 to do dragon?
i don't think you should assume that when you're starting
Ok so I just had this game and I did great early game with like 3/1/10 ganking my ass off. Then team fights came around and I had no idea what to do.
It was malph, vlad, anivia, GP, shaco vs nasus, enemy shaco, malhazar, sona, corky
Yes it was a norm queue. So team fights went like this, malph and vlad would ult 2-3 people and usually instagib sona. Nassus would ult and run directly for anivia. Malzahar would ult and kill malph. Corky and shaco kill whatever is close to them.
What do I do? Every time a team fight rolled around I would run in as malph ults someone. Ultimate myself. Auto attack whoever is the weakest (usually to gib sona) then i die... I die in about 2 seconds. Malzahar pool+silence, and corky/shaco. What the heck can I do??
lots of options 1. go in after they focus another hero (like ani, great because of egg mechanic) or someone(s) on your team has blown massive cc'd (galio, amumu, morgana, rammus with powerball -> taunt+ult, etc.). In your case, viable options would be if malph and GP combined their ults, they would be taking massive dps in the time they tried to focus you (if they even could, with ani there too).
2. kite with q and e, go in for kills only and use jitbs to fear for your team
3. use projectile dodge on R and q to avoid cc/skillshots
On January 26 2011 18:49 Navi wrote: lots of options 1. go in after they focus another hero (like ani, great because of egg mechanic) or someone(s) on your team has blown massive cc'd (galio, amumu, morgana, rammus with powerball -> taunt+ult, etc.). In your case, viable options would be if malph and GP combined their ults, they would be taking massive dps in the time they tried to focus you (if they even could, with ani there too).
2. kite with q and e, go in for kills only and use jitbs to fear for your team
3. use projectile dodge on R and q to avoid cc/skillshots
On January 26 2011 18:49 Navi wrote: lots of options 1. go in after they focus another hero (like ani, great because of egg mechanic) or someone(s) on your team has blown massive cc'd (galio, amumu, morgana, rammus with powerball -> taunt+ult, etc.). In your case, viable options would be if malph and GP combined their ults, they would be taking massive dps in the time they tried to focus you (if they even could, with ani there too).
2. kite with q and e, go in for kills only and use jitbs to fear for your team
3. use projectile dodge on R and q to avoid cc/skillshots
On January 26 2011 18:49 Navi wrote: lots of options 1. go in after they focus another hero (like ani, great because of egg mechanic) or someone(s) on your team has blown massive cc'd (galio, amumu, morgana, rammus with powerball -> taunt+ult, etc.). In your case, viable options would be if malph and GP combined their ults, they would be taking massive dps in the time they tried to focus you (if they even could, with ani there too).
2. kite with q and e, go in for kills only and use jitbs to fear for your team
3. use projectile dodge on R and q to avoid cc/skillshots
On January 28 2011 09:45 Navi wrote: with the new aggro system, is that even an issue anymore?
You'd still have to run out of the leash range for them to re-aggro to your boxes--you probably lose less autoattacks waiting for the fear to come off than you do running out and back into leash range.
I am having some problems jungling after the whole MR shit. Have tried some variations with the runes and masteries - but still causing a problem. What stuff are you guys running so that you guys dont have problems?
any mix of armorpen (favored for stronger ganks) and attackspeed (and optionally, armor yellows) will probably get you through the jungle. Make sure you set up your jitbs while you're doing your camps so that the creeps will turn away from you after you place them so you can get backstabs on the big creeps.
Okay, here's what I've been doing lately as Shaco.
Running hp quints/arpen reds/aspd yellows blues
I put all my boxes at red in the bush, because when everyone comes to pop your boxes you get free initiation. The jungling is a little bit slower if they don't, but it's worth it.
Smite blue wraith, do red, if you can get a good level 2 gank go for it, otherwise finish wraiths/double gol/wolves/blue. Depending on the other jungler, I skip a camp or two to do a fast blue to go try to steal or kill them at their red.
If it's a weak jungler, I max boxes to disrupt their jungle.
If I'm spending a lot of times ganking lanes, I'll get 2 in boxes and max two-shiv for ganking power.
Somewhere between these, I try to build Bveil/Sunfire/GA as tank items, picking up a Catalyst or Giant's Belt sometime after Mobility Boots (because ohgod Shaco is so squishy)
I really like to force objectives though (early dragons, stealing their buffs, etc.) and early-midgame, a stack of boxes will decide a fight. If I'm on a more kite-heavy team, though, I'll spread my boxes out so we can keep running around targets as they get feared.
I feel like Shaco needs to build tanky if he wants to survive late game teamfights, otherwise you're forced to solo push. Even then, you can't jump in to a fight too early.
Full ASPD in jungle is okay on most junglers that heavily rely on autoattacks. You cannot simply go wrong by increasing your DPS by 30-40% (depends on masteries and builtin skills).
Did anyone mention Shaco's godly ability to gank from the front yet? He could easily walk directly into a lane and deceive into the brush before the enemies get vision of him. Even if your team buy wards, which is a rare sight in itself, SHaco can still be highly effective. He has so many ways to destroy you.
most effective path for a blinker like shaco is going over the walls (sit in either triangle bush, decieve over the wall, etc.) not many people ward the triangle bush, even less so when its their own (for purple, the top triangle bush, etc.). ganking that way is natural if you're on the purple side, but going through the enemy jungle to the bottom triangle bush if you're purple is still super effective
On March 23 2011 12:40 HazMat wrote: I've been going flash on Shaco. It's really good imo.
flash on shaco would just be brutally annoying, though I am falling in love with ignite lately, its more clutch for ganking than ghost and if youre carefull you wont need ghost as much :D
I've toyed around with a new build on Shaco, I still open boots of mobillity + wriggles but instead of bloodrazors or triforce i've started to go for a brutalizer and then get a hexdrinker if they have any magic burst which usually just kills shaco really fast. Then I get a triforce, bloodrazor, banshees, sunfire or GA. Whatever I need.
I know I argued against ghostblade before but I simply cant stop getting it nowdays. Some times I find myself going for a GB + brutalizer sometimes
On March 23 2011 12:40 HazMat wrote: I've been going flash on Shaco. It's really good imo.
flash on shaco would just be brutally annoying, though I am falling in love with ignite lately, its more clutch for ganking than ghost and if youre carefull you wont need ghost as much :D
flash is better, but if u see some retarded easy kill solo mid/top with no escape (ranked games) take ignite
So how do you determine a Shaco clone if he doesn't have any buffs/elixirs/sheen-based items? People everywhere are saying it's like very easy, but I don't exactly know how to understand which one is him in a split second.
On April 06 2011 21:19 BluzMan wrote: So how do you determine a Shaco clone if he doesn't have any buffs/elixirs/sheen-based items? People everywhere are saying it's like very easy, but I don't exactly know how to understand which one is him in a split second.
On April 06 2011 21:19 BluzMan wrote: So how do you determine a Shaco clone if he doesn't have any buffs/elixirs/sheen-based items? People everywhere are saying it's like very easy, but I don't exactly know how to understand which one is him in a split second.
ping shaco before he ults and the target stays over the real one
On March 23 2011 12:40 HazMat wrote: I've been going flash on Shaco. It's really good imo.
flash on shaco would just be brutally annoying, though I am falling in love with ignite lately, its more clutch for ganking than ghost and if youre carefull you wont need ghost as much :D
flash is better, but if u see some retarded easy kill solo mid/top with no escape (ranked games) take ignite
I never felt like I could need it to get out of a situation I didnt fuck up to get myself into.
I will probally change my mind some day but thats how it is at the momemt, at some point I was adamantiun about running ghost
On April 06 2011 21:19 BluzMan wrote: So how do you determine a Shaco clone if he doesn't have any buffs/elixirs/sheen-based items? People everywhere are saying it's like very easy, but I don't exactly know how to understand which one is him in a split second.
ping shaco before he ults and the target stays over the real one
Shaco clone also doesnt have items. So if you didnt get to ping him see if he has items or not.
in addition to pinging and seeing items , shaco clone takes additional damage, and u can easily tell which one is real because the real one will always move (jerking motion) first, either to run or attack. also if the real one throws a jib or shiv it becomes very obvious
On April 07 2011 05:06 HeavOnEarth wrote: in addition to pinging and seeing items , shaco clone takes additional damage, and u can easily tell which one is real because the real one will always move (jerking motion) first, either to run or attack. also if the real one throws a jib or shiv it becomes very obvious
The Shaco might just as well only move his clone to fool you and pray that his Decieve comes up before you notice (1 sec?). Of course if you do that and succeed you will be called a pro. If you fail, you will be called a retard.
I remember some shaco tricked Utah and I into thinking that his clone was the one that just popped out of deceive by deceiving out of the range his clone could be (such that it instantly appeared and started attacking us). It was really fucking slick, we blew our load on it and then he tore us a new A-hole.
oh well , whenever i do that it always works. theres really no way to *stop* it, although there are only a few situations where its actually applicable (spots where ur dead , and u dont really want to put urself in those spots)
On April 07 2011 05:36 Mogwai wrote: I remember some shaco tricked Utah and I into thinking that his clone was the one that just popped out of deceive by deceiving out of the range his clone could be (such that it instantly appeared and started attacking us). It was really fucking slick, we blew our load on it and then he tore us a new A-hole.
It was a pretty slick move, I cant remember if utah was jungling coming in for a gank or what? I wanna say I was mid for that
He had his clone down close to dragon, then deceived into mid past the range of his clone leash and it popped next to him(while he was still stealthed) making it appear that he had dropped deceive prematurely
I dunno, vid seems pretty legit to me. It has some pretty decent tips in there, but not many ones that we didn't already know about (most have been mentioned in Regi's previous vids too).
On April 14 2011 02:15 Liquidspoison wrote: Shaco is an incredible jungler, but he does not always have to jungle. I play pretty much strict 3's and I can dominate a lane with him. Opinions?
jungling on 3s with shaco is meh, i tried a bunch of paths i dont like them much
Agreed. I hate 5's (or at least for now until I get my new graphics card, and get off my netbook). This is why I play Shaco just on the lane in TT. He's extremely boss, and you can max your E instead of W.
Shaco's e has very long range and short cd, along with pretty good dmg. You can dominate a lot of lanes with e control. And you can get away with ganks by going decieve or just boxes. I've seen really good shaco pros like racoonboywuchuck do it and get super fed and just carry games straight up. Your item build is lantern because lantern is OP, boots of mobility, double zeal because the euros do it, and it works, then you go into PD and black cleaver, followed up by a banshees veil.
On September 01 2011 01:14 Trotske wrote: Has anyone played shaco going straight AD and max Q and starting mid vs a AP caster? Ive had pretty good luck with it.
Crit glove thing and 2 hp pots to start with Q. Gank from a side bush and hit mid then back off right away.
This gives you enough advantage against a normal AP caster to win the lane or even kill them at level 2.
I build an avarice blade + boots of 5. then rush my IE. Gank like non-stop if your other lanes are getting pushed.
you just have to be really careful because you have nothing defensive goign for you.
Finial build is something like IE, boots 5, ghostblade, bloodthirst, GA , siuational (I like PD for more movespeed)
I suppose if you're godly at dodging skillshots that could work, but one W+E combo from Brand or Q+W from Oriana and you instantly lose lane. Not to mention AP casters with point-and-click nuke combos like Annie's Q+W would stomp you hardcore.
So, since Shaco has not been free since sometime last year, I've taken to trying him out this week, and naturally, I'm terrible.
Does anybody at all still play him? And if so, how do you effectively jungle him with the change to JitB aggro (Regi's old guides don't apply ) Just standard Blue -->wolves--> wraiths, etc.?
On September 07 2011 17:08 SHr3DD3r wrote: If you place the boxes right where you think the creep will spawn, the boxes attack just that target. So you can still do Regi's route.
From what I saw when you jungled him that patch completely removed all those random fuckups they sometimes did before, didn't it?
On September 07 2011 17:08 SHr3DD3r wrote: If you place the boxes right where you think the creep will spawn, the boxes attack just that target. So you can still do Regi's route.
From what I saw when you jungled him that patch completely removed all those random fuckups they sometimes did before, didn't it?
No, it's worse. The boxes don't randomly aggro anymore which is ok I guess, but fear send the monsters flying every which way so getting them to turn around so you can attack them from behind is a bitch. And SHredder is right, the only way to get them to attack what you want is to stack them on top of a monster.
On September 07 2011 15:08 WaveofShadow wrote: So, since Shaco has not been free since sometime last year, I've taken to trying him out this week, and naturally, I'm terrible.
Does anybody at all still play him? And if so, how do you effectively jungle him with the change to JitB aggro (Regi's old guides don't apply ) Just standard Blue -->wolves--> wraiths, etc.?
shaco is a decent jungler, yes. but i play this game since the beta and i LOVE to play him on AD and lane. you need a good CC allie and you have to coordinate the attack, and it still works out great. still, its very hard to play, as he is very squishy. if flash would be removed, shaco would get a little reroll, because thats the only thing, how you get away from a shaco who is chasing you.
in my opinion shaco needs to get buffed again. the nerfs at the beginning just were hilariously hard. less hp, less movespeed, less passive dmg, longer q cooldown, lesser basedamage. this is literally EVERY stat, that a stealther/assasin/chaser as shaco is, really needs to be efficient.
also i do not play him with "common" itembuilds. i dont take madreds for example. you need amor penetration and critdamage + triforce. this makes its possible to you to decieve enemy carry -> 50% hp gone -> a few auto hits -> dead -> job done. my highest decieve was like 1,6k at around 35 minutes, when the game went very well. (though i do not remember the runeset, but i guess it was full critdamage)
still, as shaco, you have to get the kill when you use decieve offensively, but flash normally helps those noobs to get away with ease. i just hate that summoner spell, as it forgives major mistakes like every 5(??) minutes in the game? just ridiculous.
On September 07 2011 15:08 WaveofShadow wrote: So, since Shaco has not been free since sometime last year, I've taken to trying him out this week, and naturally, I'm terrible.
Does anybody at all still play him? And if so, how do you effectively jungle him with the change to JitB aggro (Regi's old guides don't apply ) Just standard Blue -->wolves--> wraiths, etc.?
One of his strongest points is his split pushing ability. He is insanely strong in that regard. And at that stage of the game you should be able to 1v1 most champions if played correctly. So if the rest of your team has any brains they would do something worthwhile when 2 people come to chase you out of the lane.
On September 09 2011 06:28 TheYango wrote: @brobear - Why would you not start at either buff camp when JitB lets you do a buff camp without even using Smite at level 1?
i have no idea what the methodology behind brobear's start is, but when turkey and i were working out a jungle shaco path, we wanted to work out one where you didn't have to start blue/red to be able to clear fast and have hp to gank, since shaco's biggest problem is when his lvl 1 gets fucked up by an invade
On September 09 2011 06:41 barbsq wrote: i have no idea what the methodology behind brobear's start is, but when turkey and i were working out a jungle shaco path, we wanted to work out one where you didn't have to start blue/red to be able to clear fast and have hp to gank, since shaco's biggest problem is when his lvl 1 gets fucked up by an invade
But that's largely because a box pop screws you up regardless of where you start. If you get to stack up your boxes in peace, there's not much reason to start at a small camp. And if your boxes get popped, you're probably going to have to rethink where you're starting, regardless of which camp it is, simply based on the fact that wherever you are isn't very safe with 5 enemy champs nearby.
I don't think you'd ever start at a non-buff by choice--but rather as a contingency if your normal start gets screwed up. If they're strong enough to invade and willing to do so, putting your boxes at minigols doesn't make them safer from getting popped than putting them at red. Though admittedly it does make YOU safer.
I find that starting blue and wolves (at the same time) and then rushing red is the best way to play him. You get a really quick lvl 3 and dual buffs which will help him sustain through several ganks. I don't like starting red because of his obvious mana problems. If you do the path correctly you don't even need to use any health potion. So the dagger also works, but will punish you for any little jungling mistake. The box change didn't screw me up at all, apparently it targets the closest one if you put one box, if you do 2 it splits etc. You only need 1 box to get red and the blue you can just stack wherever you wish.
However, there was a fix in last patch which I didn't see mentioned anywhere, apparently the tower exclusively targets you if your clone aggros something. This wasn't the case before and it helped a lot during tower diving. Also I think his clone has items now (?)
I don't do flash a lot since I don't see why shaco would benefit from it except for running away from a major fuckup initiate. The times when I die with him is when they catch me with cc and sustains it from full to zero hp. So against heavy cc its best to do cleanse, otherwise ignite or exhaust... crit dmg quints apen red atkspeed yellow cdr blue are my favourite runes but I guess you can change blue to atkspeed as well. Items are kinda reginald style, rushing black cleaver works well in most cases. If you're doing badly early and need to farm nonstop in midgame I prefer zeal+cata before building dmg. Always mobility boots, might not be necessary but suits my style of trying to be everywhere at once. Make yourself slightly present near an incoming teamfight, run and push a tower, run back and help your team etc. You usually have to run great distances to be effective with shaco so I feel that the mobility boots are a necessity, sometimes even before finishing lantern.
Shaco is definitely one of the best counter junglers so knowing all the different jungling paths for different champions and change your own accordingly will often win you the game. That's the best way to help your team in high elo since the lanes will usually play a bit too cautiously for a successful gank. And make sure to ban lee sin if you play shaco in ranked... Earlier, tf was the obvious hardcounter to shaco but since the global nerf fortunately nobody picks him anymore.
On September 09 2011 06:28 TheYango wrote: @brobear - Why would you not start at either buff camp when JitB lets you do a buff camp without even using Smite at level 1?
i have no idea what the methodology behind brobear's start is, but when turkey and i were working out a jungle shaco path, we wanted to work out one where you didn't have to start blue/red to be able to clear fast and have hp to gank, since shaco's biggest problem is when his lvl 1 gets fucked up by an invade
Whenever I start at the either buff camps, my hp goes too low and I burn too many pots for it to be fast and effective... (and clearing blue without smite is impossible? I don't know how you manage that lol)
So I start at minigolems and do the buffs at level 3 with JitB level 2.
I then get level 4 after clearing rest of re-spawned jungles and gank at that timing.
I like having the buffs last longer on me while i'm running around ganking, but maybe that's not the most efficient way?
I'm new to jungling but I thought I had a pretty decent route, since it works out well for me...
On September 09 2011 09:28 brobear wrote: Whenever I start at the either buff camps, my hp goes too low and I burn too many pots for it to be fast and effective... (and clearing blue without smite is impossible? I don't know how you manage that lol)
So I start at minigolems and do the buffs at level 3 with JitB level 2.
I then get level 4 after clearing rest of re-spawned jungles and gank at that timing.
I like having the buffs last longer on me while i'm running around ganking, but maybe that's not the most efficient way?
I'm new to jungling but I thought I had a pretty decent route, since it works out well for me...
Stack the boxes right on top of where the buff monster spawns, make sure that after the fear the monster aggros to a box, and not you, and likewise use another box once your initial ones pop to stop some damage on you. If done correctly, the boxes should all aggro to the buff monster, and not to the small lizards.
The buff monster should die extremely quickly even without smite, and you should take very little damage on the camp. If you're starting Red, this means you can use your Smite to hit 2 off the big wraith (the Red camp doesn't inherently give enough XP to hit 2 like the Blue camp does), which allows you to perform a level 2 red gank while the laners are still level 1.
On September 09 2011 09:28 brobear wrote: Whenever I start at the either buff camps, my hp goes too low and I burn too many pots for it to be fast and effective... (and clearing blue without smite is impossible? I don't know how you manage that lol)
So I start at minigolems and do the buffs at level 3 with JitB level 2.
I then get level 4 after clearing rest of re-spawned jungles and gank at that timing.
I like having the buffs last longer on me while i'm running around ganking, but maybe that's not the most efficient way?
I'm new to jungling but I thought I had a pretty decent route, since it works out well for me...
Stack the boxes right on top of where the buff monster spawns, make sure that after the fear the monster aggros to a box, and not you, and likewise use another box once your initial ones pop to stop some damage on you. If done correctly, the boxes should all aggro to the buff monster, and not to the small lizards.
The buff monster should die extremely quickly even without smite, and you should take very little damage on the camp. If you're starting Red, this means you can use your Smite to hit 2 off the big wraith (the Red camp doesn't inherently give enough XP to hit 2 like the Blue camp does), which allows you to perform a level 2 red gank while the laners are still level 1.
Okay thanks a lot I'll try it...
Sorry for the bad *advice* i was trying to give before lol I deleted it
On September 09 2011 09:28 brobear wrote: Whenever I start at the either buff camps, my hp goes too low and I burn too many pots for it to be fast and effective... (and clearing blue without smite is impossible? I don't know how you manage that lol)
So I start at minigolems and do the buffs at level 3 with JitB level 2.
I then get level 4 after clearing rest of re-spawned jungles and gank at that timing.
I like having the buffs last longer on me while i'm running around ganking, but maybe that's not the most efficient way?
I'm new to jungling but I thought I had a pretty decent route, since it works out well for me...
Stack the boxes right on top of where the buff monster spawns, make sure that after the fear the monster aggros to a box, and not you, and likewise use another box once your initial ones pop to stop some damage on you. If done correctly, the boxes should all aggro to the buff monster, and not to the small lizards.
The buff monster should die extremely quickly even without smite, and you should take very little damage on the camp. If you're starting Red, this means you can use your Smite to hit 2 off the big wraith (the Red camp doesn't inherently give enough XP to hit 2 like the Blue camp does), which allows you to perform a level 2 red gank while the laners are still level 1.
I thought the red lizard route was 2 JitBs at double golems, 2 on the red buff, smite big wraith, 3rd at red buff, kill double golems, level up decive, 4th at red buff take down red buff and go gank. That's the one i've been using and it works pretty well.
Thats insanely mana heavy. Just level up Shiv for added damage and dodge. This allows you to then gank after getting red or doing whatever the hell you want. Be unpredictable.
On September 09 2011 09:28 brobear wrote: Whenever I start at the either buff camps, my hp goes too low and I burn too many pots for it to be fast and effective... (and clearing blue without smite is impossible? I don't know how you manage that lol)
So I start at minigolems and do the buffs at level 3 with JitB level 2.
I then get level 4 after clearing rest of re-spawned jungles and gank at that timing.
I like having the buffs last longer on me while i'm running around ganking, but maybe that's not the most efficient way?
I'm new to jungling but I thought I had a pretty decent route, since it works out well for me...
Stack the boxes right on top of where the buff monster spawns, make sure that after the fear the monster aggros to a box, and not you, and likewise use another box once your initial ones pop to stop some damage on you. If done correctly, the boxes should all aggro to the buff monster, and not to the small lizards.
The buff monster should die extremely quickly even without smite, and you should take very little damage on the camp. If you're starting Red, this means you can use your Smite to hit 2 off the big wraith (the Red camp doesn't inherently give enough XP to hit 2 like the Blue camp does), which allows you to perform a level 2 red gank while the laners are still level 1.
I thought the red lizard route was 2 JitBs at double golems, 2 on the red buff, smite big wraith, 3rd at red buff, kill double golems, level up decive, 4th at red buff take down red buff and go gank. That's the one i've been using and it works pretty well.
I've also seen people start that way and go do golem instead of ganking right away. You take 2 shiv poison at level 2 and deceive at 3. If you do it right you should be able to catch the other jungler at wraiths (depending who you're jungling against).
On September 09 2011 09:28 brobear wrote: Whenever I start at the either buff camps, my hp goes too low and I burn too many pots for it to be fast and effective... (and clearing blue without smite is impossible? I don't know how you manage that lol)
So I start at minigolems and do the buffs at level 3 with JitB level 2.
I then get level 4 after clearing rest of re-spawned jungles and gank at that timing.
I like having the buffs last longer on me while i'm running around ganking, but maybe that's not the most efficient way?
I'm new to jungling but I thought I had a pretty decent route, since it works out well for me...
Stack the boxes right on top of where the buff monster spawns, make sure that after the fear the monster aggros to a box, and not you, and likewise use another box once your initial ones pop to stop some damage on you. If done correctly, the boxes should all aggro to the buff monster, and not to the small lizards.
The buff monster should die extremely quickly even without smite, and you should take very little damage on the camp. If you're starting Red, this means you can use your Smite to hit 2 off the big wraith (the Red camp doesn't inherently give enough XP to hit 2 like the Blue camp does), which allows you to perform a level 2 red gank while the laners are still level 1.
Yeah this... doesn't work anymore because Shaco's JitB targets random mobs. They don't target the closest in range target anymore.
Because of this, it's so much more efficient to do small golems --> wraiths --> wolves --> blue --> respawn wraiths & small golems --> red --> level 4 gank.
I honestly think you should give it a try before you talk about it.
"even without smite" just tells me you've never tried this. Recently.
On September 09 2011 09:28 brobear wrote: Whenever I start at the either buff camps, my hp goes too low and I burn too many pots for it to be fast and effective... (and clearing blue without smite is impossible? I don't know how you manage that lol)
So I start at minigolems and do the buffs at level 3 with JitB level 2.
I then get level 4 after clearing rest of re-spawned jungles and gank at that timing.
I like having the buffs last longer on me while i'm running around ganking, but maybe that's not the most efficient way?
I'm new to jungling but I thought I had a pretty decent route, since it works out well for me...
Stack the boxes right on top of where the buff monster spawns, make sure that after the fear the monster aggros to a box, and not you, and likewise use another box once your initial ones pop to stop some damage on you. If done correctly, the boxes should all aggro to the buff monster, and not to the small lizards.
The buff monster should die extremely quickly even without smite, and you should take very little damage on the camp. If you're starting Red, this means you can use your Smite to hit 2 off the big wraith (the Red camp doesn't inherently give enough XP to hit 2 like the Blue camp does), which allows you to perform a level 2 red gank while the laners are still level 1.
Yeah this... doesn't work anymore because Shaco's JitB targets random mobs. They don't target the closest in range target anymore.
Because of this, it's so much more efficient to do small golems --> wraiths --> wolves --> blue --> respawn wraiths & small golems --> red --> level 4 gank.
I honestly think you should give it a try before you talk about it.
"even without smite" just tells me you've never tried this. Recently.
Actually, I did this just yesterday.
Box targeting isn't exactly random. It still targets the closest creep in range--it just no longer swaps targets when a different one enters range. This still means that if you place the boxes EXACTLY where the buff monster spawns, they will all aggro the buff.
On September 09 2011 09:28 brobear wrote: Whenever I start at the either buff camps, my hp goes too low and I burn too many pots for it to be fast and effective... (and clearing blue without smite is impossible? I don't know how you manage that lol)
So I start at minigolems and do the buffs at level 3 with JitB level 2.
I then get level 4 after clearing rest of re-spawned jungles and gank at that timing.
I like having the buffs last longer on me while i'm running around ganking, but maybe that's not the most efficient way?
I'm new to jungling but I thought I had a pretty decent route, since it works out well for me...
Stack the boxes right on top of where the buff monster spawns, make sure that after the fear the monster aggros to a box, and not you, and likewise use another box once your initial ones pop to stop some damage on you. If done correctly, the boxes should all aggro to the buff monster, and not to the small lizards.
The buff monster should die extremely quickly even without smite, and you should take very little damage on the camp. If you're starting Red, this means you can use your Smite to hit 2 off the big wraith (the Red camp doesn't inherently give enough XP to hit 2 like the Blue camp does), which allows you to perform a level 2 red gank while the laners are still level 1.
Yeah this... doesn't work anymore because Shaco's JitB targets random mobs. They don't target the closest in range target anymore.
Because of this, it's so much more efficient to do small golems --> wraiths --> wolves --> blue --> respawn wraiths & small golems --> red --> level 4 gank.
I honestly think you should give it a try before you talk about it.
"even without smite" just tells me you've never tried this. Recently.
Actually, I did this just yesterday.
Box targeting isn't exactly random. It still targets the closest creep in range--it just no longer swaps targets when a different one enters range. This still means that if you place the boxes EXACTLY where the buff monster spawns, they will all aggro the buff.
but if you put two boxes away from a spawn and drag them there, the first box will always target the closest range one (if you put one) but the second will not.
Playing AP support Shaco does two things: piss off your team from the beginning, and then piss off the enemy team after the game starts. It's awesome.
Pick Shaco, go Flash/Ignite, call support.
Watch as team rages at you for not taking CV. Just say "Don't worry bro we got this." If you are lucky, somebody else will take CV for you.
Start the game. Open AmpTome + 1 HP Pot. Make as if you're going to head down middle land, but go bot. Drop a Box in the bush away from your side, and then run back to the bush on your side and face your base. Whenever your box CD is up, put a box as close as you can to the other box (make sure it's as close to the wall as you can get it) and then run back to your bush and face your base.
When you see the enemy creeps, walk out of your bush and drop a box in the river bush, near the edge. Chances are the enemy support champion will proceed to walk into your boxes and die;, or at least burn a flash, and then die. Don't be afraid to burn ignite. Then once the enemy support is either dead or b, throw boxes in their bush (don't stack them, just keep them in weird places.
You can now harass the enemy ranged DPS with near impunity. Make sure if you B you do it in weird places. If you want to get from one bush to the other without drawing attention, just decieve into the other bush and set up boxes. You want boxes along the perimeter of bottom lane, both in the bushes and in the river area. Then you can back and go off and bother their jungler or something. I dunno. Just put box traps in bushes and gib people.
In teamfights, deploy boxes along your path of anticipated retreat. Each box is an AOE fear and does a lot of damage if ignored. You will likely need to get an oracles after the enemy support bugs out after having been box'd three or four times and starts warding all of their own bushes. This is good, because those are wards that aren't on your side, which makes it hard for them to harass your jungler/team. If you anticipate advancing, throw boxes in the enemy's expected path of retreat. Just put boxes in random places.
As for items, after a DFG, you can pretty much build whatever the fuck you want.
I present to you; probally the most unpredictable shcao route yet Start longsword +1 potion, 21/0/9 masteries, armpen reds, AS quints and blues, armor reds put all your boxes at the red buff, smite the big wraith after you've killed the red you got 5 (!) different things to do Skillorder: WQWE if you got firstblood or just need to farm WQEW if you didn't get firstblood but still need to gank then R>W>E>Q Smite Ignite after red choose either route: 1; gank the other guy at blue buff / wolves. I recommend this when you're smurfing or stomping bad people, or all in all characters who will get low after blue buff. (Note; I advice against doing this against people who's likely to go wolves - wraiths - golems such as nocturne or skarner) Best case scenario: You kill both the enemy jungler and foolish mid lane who came to help and likely facechecked you in a bush and found a shaco with double buffs (this has happend often to me). After here, go whereever the fuck you want. Worst case scenario: you feed jungler and or mid and give red buff up, likely scenario: you kill their jungler (or burn their summoner) and escape their fierce mid and top lane by usng ninja skills (read: deceive) 2: Go gank mid lane, you usually dont kill this guy unless he is overextending by alot but you usually burn his flash and what not, but it's ok, hopefully you didn't waste ignite so you can go farm ur own jungle if you got low, go counterjungle if it seem's like agood idea or just stick around and hope the fool underestimates your hunger for firstbloods. 3. Gank sidelanes, top or bot depending if you're on the blue or purple team. After that do the same follow up to midlane. 4. Farm your jungle, usually dont do this cus then you'd be better off with spreading out your boxes to small golems etc.. the regi route yknow.. 5. Get the rest of your wolves /wraiths and go roam the shit out of their side of the map.
WHen you go back priotize these items first 1. wriggles (if you can get it in one, happily do so, it's worth delaying boots) 2. boots 3. cloth armor / vamp scepter - depends 4. madreds razor's (you rather want the vamp scepter + cloth than razor's only). WHne you have wriggles, get your boots of mobillity followed by a brutalizer if you can afford it fast (read: you're getting fed) if not, then build up a triforce or a wit's end if they have alot of MR. Then basically build whatever you need, LW for anti armor, Cleaver if they have no armor, IE if you want a PD as well, GA if you need tankiness (GA revive + instant deceive is the best!). Split bush, gank like a baws be a baws.
I wish I knew how to play AP Shaco properly. I can never seem to set up that perfect 4-5 box-bush insta-gank. I much prefer AD/jungler...not that Shaco leaves much room for error to begin with, but AD leaves more room for error I suppose since you can always clear for xp/levels.
On October 26 2011 21:50 Iplaythings wrote: I present to you; probally the most unpredictable shcao route yet Start longsword +1 potion, 21/0/9 masteries, armpen reds, AS quints and blues, armor reds put all your boxes at the red buff, smite the big wraith after you've killed the red you got 5 (!) different things to do Skillorder: WQWE if you got firstblood or just need to farm WQEW if you didn't get firstblood but still need to gank then R>W>E>Q Smite Ignite after red choose either route: 1; gank the other guy at blue buff / wolves. I recommend this when you're smurfing or stomping bad people, or all in all characters who will get low after blue buff. (Note; I advice against doing this against people who's likely to go wolves - wraiths - golems such as nocturne or skarner) Best case scenario: You kill both the enemy jungler and foolish mid lane who came to help and likely facechecked you in a bush and found a shaco with double buffs (this has happend often to me). After here, go whereever the fuck you want. Worst case scenario: you feed jungler and or mid and give red buff up, likely scenario: you kill their jungler (or burn their summoner) and escape their fierce mid and top lane by usng ninja skills (read: deceive) 2: Go gank mid lane, you usually dont kill this guy unless he is overextending by alot but you usually burn his flash and what not, but it's ok, hopefully you didn't waste ignite so you can go farm ur own jungle if you got low, go counterjungle if it seem's like agood idea or just stick around and hope the fool underestimates your hunger for firstbloods. 3. Gank sidelanes, top or bot depending if you're on the blue or purple team. After that do the same follow up to midlane. 4. Farm your jungle, usually dont do this cus then you'd be better off with spreading out your boxes to small golems etc.. the regi route yknow.. 5. Get the rest of your wolves /wraiths and go roam the shit out of their side of the map.
WHen you go back priotize these items first 1. wriggles (if you can get it in one, happily do so, it's worth delaying boots) 2. boots 3. cloth armor / vamp scepter - depends 4. madreds razor's (you rather want the vamp scepter + cloth than razor's only). WHne you have wriggles, get your boots of mobillity followed by a brutalizer if you can afford it fast (read: you're getting fed) if not, then build up a triforce or a wit's end if they have alot of MR. Then basically build whatever you need, LW for anti armor, Cleaver if they have no armor, IE if you want a PD as well, GA if you need tankiness (GA revive + instant deceive is the best!). Split bush, gank like a baws be a baws.
Pretty much copied from the most recent high-rated Shaco guide on SoloMid? Not a fan of this guide personally. The beginning is standard Red -->gank jungle route (gank at either 2 or 3, take your pick), nothing special, and then after it goes a little wonky with the Triforce....I still much prefer the on-hit items for damage/pushing like Wit's End or Cleaver into defence. Triforce just doesn't seem as useful on a character wiwth insane mobility and mid/high cooldowns. Bruta is a good call though.
On October 26 2011 16:43 Caller wrote: Caller's AP Support Shaco Guide
Playing AP support Shaco does two things: piss off your team from the beginning, and then piss off the enemy team after the game starts. It's awesome.
Pick Shaco, go Flash/Ignite, call support.
Watch as team rages at you for not taking CV. Just say "Don't worry bro we got this." If you are lucky, somebody else will take CV for you.
Start the game. Open AmpTome + 1 HP Pot. Make as if you're going to head down middle land, but go bot. Drop a Box in the bush away from your side, and then run back to the bush on your side and face your base. Whenever your box CD is up, put a box as close as you can to the other box (make sure it's as close to the wall as you can get it) and then run back to your bush and face your base.
When you see the enemy creeps, walk out of your bush and drop a box in the river bush, near the edge. Chances are the enemy support champion will proceed to walk into your boxes and die;, or at least burn a flash, and then die. Don't be afraid to burn ignite. Then once the enemy support is either dead or b, throw boxes in their bush (don't stack them, just keep them in weird places.
You can now harass the enemy ranged DPS with near impunity. Make sure if you B you do it in weird places. If you want to get from one bush to the other without drawing attention, just decieve into the other bush and set up boxes. You want boxes along the perimeter of bottom lane, both in the bushes and in the river area. Then you can back and go off and bother their jungler or something. I dunno. Just put box traps in bushes and gib people.
In teamfights, deploy boxes along your path of anticipated retreat. Each box is an AOE fear and does a lot of damage if ignored. You will likely need to get an oracles after the enemy support bugs out after having been box'd three or four times and starts warding all of their own bushes. This is good, because those are wards that aren't on your side, which makes it hard for them to harass your jungler/team. If you anticipate advancing, throw boxes in the enemy's expected path of retreat. Just put boxes in random places.
As for items, after a DFG, you can pretty much build whatever the fuck you want.
Just tried this in ranked, and it's legit. Team raged at picks, enemy raged in game.
this focuses on a VERY strong and fast lvl 3 gank mid right when mid turns 3 or even BEFORE mid gets 3. you are guaranteed to burn their flash and make them have to back (or feed fb if you fail horribly)
21/0/9 jungle setup, I prefer taking +4dmg to minions and +10% on crit compared to cdr and mrpen since you'll crit out of decieve. Smite+flash/ghost/exhaust/ignite I prefer ghost but its up to you.
arpen quints, flat ad reds, flat armor, mr/lvl
Tell your support to save CV and have it ready at 1:30. Ask your mid to be aggressive lvl 1-2 and exchange as much dmg as possible. You start at blue so beg your team to protect your boxes, otherwise your jungle will be fucked if you get your boxes popped.
5pot armorcloth start, buy armor from GA in recommended items and pots per clicking on buy instead of doubleclicking. Its really important to be fast and start setting up boxes. I run to blue through mid and place boxes from outside (you should arrive and place your first box at ~0:30) so I can stay in the bush on your side of the river and see incoming ganks. Stack boxes right where golem will spawn.
After placing 4 boxes (should be shortly before 1:30) start running to your opponents wraiths and ask for a CV there.
a) Someone camps their wraith -> Just run back to your wolves, wait for them to spawn, give the big one a hit from behind and smite it, run to blue and do it. You should find yourself with nearly full hp and bluebuff, no need to use a pot before doing your littles wolves. Just continue regular from here.
b) Wraith undefended -> Jackpot. Smite the big one (they spawn at 1:40) from max range and run to your blue. Finish blue, lvl e, get wolves. You should have lost ~100hp by now. Run to your wraiths and use a pot. When you arrive at your wraiths your smite should be either off cd or close to depending on how much luck you have had with boxes/crits etc. Smite the big wraith WHOOPS LVL 3 get decieve and gank mid asap.
This should hit right when mid gets 3 or sometimes if some denying happened even before both hit 3. You have to attack from behind (20% more dmg thx) out of decieve and put a Jitb asap between your enemy and their tpwer. This way they HAVE to burn flash to escape, if they try to just run back they'll get feared and DIE.
Tell your mid beforehand if you think you are going for the kill or just to burn their flash. Your burst consist of Crit+40%dmg+20%dmg by attacking from behind, lvl 1 Shiv and maybe another autoattack. This is about 150-300dmg. (A LOT). If your mid has a stun and Flash/Ignite its really hard to not get a kill.
After you ganked mid run to the river towards your enemies wraiths. Use a pot if you were damaged, and keep running to their Lizard. Assuming they started at Blue (like pretty much all junglers at lower lvls) they should be either at Lizard or Twin Golems.
If they are at Lizard decieve and go for the kill. They will be low and you will win.
If Lizard is still there decieve from the wall behind the Twin Golems to the other side and kill them. They will be there with half-low life 80% of the time.
If they somehow managed to escape either from the gank at Lizard or Twin Golems (like flashed over a wall to the tower) start putting Jitb in the brush at Lizard (if you killed them do it anyways, stealing their Red is the best feeling ever) When you have 3-4 Jitb there pull the Lizard inside and finish with Smite.
Yeah so far so much. May update with some other counterjungling techniques soon.
Anyone tried doing the Dragon at level 1 Shaco 'route'?
I'm 3 runes short of being able to do it, so I can't actually try it in a real game, but seems like it could be pretty funny/useful to give your team dragon at 2:40.
On October 27 2011 01:52 craaaaack wrote: BRAVE JUNGLE ROUTE
this focuses on a VERY strong and fast lvl 3 gank mid right when mid turns 3 or even BEFORE mid gets 3. you are guaranteed to burn their flash and make them have to back (or feed fb if you fail horribly)
21/0/9 jungle setup, I prefer taking +4dmg to minions and +10% on crit compared to cdr and mrpen since you'll crit out of decieve. Smite+flash/ghost/exhaust/ignite I prefer ghost but its up to you.
arpen quints, flat ad reds, flat armor, mr/lvl
Tell your support to save CV and have it ready at 1:30. Ask your mid to be aggressive lvl 1-2 and exchange as much dmg as possible. You start at blue so beg your team to protect your boxes, otherwise your jungle will be fucked if you get your boxes popped.
5pot armorcloth start, buy armor from GA in recommended items and pots per clicking on buy instead of doubleclicking. Its really important to be fast and start setting up boxes. I run to blue through mid and place boxes from outside (you should arrive and place your first box at ~0:30) so I can stay in the bush on your side of the river and see incoming ganks. Stack boxes right where golem will spawn.
After placing 4 boxes (should be shortly before 1:30) start running to your opponents wraiths and ask for a CV there.
a) Someone camps their wraith -> Just run back to your wolves, wait for them to spawn, give the big one a hit from behind and smite it, run to blue and do it. You should find yourself with nearly full hp and bluebuff, no need to use a pot before doing your littles wolves. Just continue regular from here.
b) Wraith undefended -> Jackpot. Smite the big one (they spawn at 1:40) from max range and run to your blue. Finish blue, lvl e, get wolves. You should have lost ~100hp by now. Run to your wraiths and use a pot. When you arrive at your wraiths your smite should be either off cd or close to depending on how much luck you have had with boxes/crits etc. Smite the big wraith WHOOPS LVL 3 get decieve and gank mid asap.
This should hit right when mid gets 3 or sometimes if some denying happened even before both hit 3. You have to attack from behind (20% more dmg thx) out of decieve and put a Jitb asap between your enemy and their tpwer. This way they HAVE to burn flash to escape, if they try to just run back they'll get feared and DIE.
Tell your mid beforehand if you think you are going for the kill or just to burn their flash. Your burst consist of Crit+40%dmg+20%dmg by attacking from behind, lvl 1 Shiv and maybe another autoattack. This is about 150-300dmg. (A LOT). If your mid has a stun and Flash/Ignite its really hard to not get a kill.
After you ganked mid run to the river towards your enemies wraiths. Use a pot if you were damaged, and keep running to their Lizard. Assuming they started at Blue (like pretty much all junglers at lower lvls) they should be either at Lizard or Twin Golems.
If they are at Lizard decieve and go for the kill. They will be low and you will win.
If Lizard is still there decieve from the wall behind the Twin Golems to the other side and kill them. They will be there with half-low life 80% of the time.
If they somehow managed to escape either from the gank at Lizard or Twin Golems (like flashed over a wall to the tower) start putting Jitb in the brush at Lizard (if you killed them do it anyways, stealing their Red is the best feeling ever) When you have 3-4 Jitb there pull the Lizard inside and finish with Smite.
Yeah so far so much. May update with some other counterjungling techniques soon.
Thanks for posting this! I just bought Shaco yesterday and there are so many guides on different ways to play him that I couldn't figure out where to start. I am new to jungling and kinda new to the game so having this easy to follow guide really helps!
On October 27 2011 04:15 jtype wrote: Anyone tried doing the Dragon at level 1 Shaco 'route'?
I'm 3 runes short of being able to do it, so I can't actually try it in a real game, but seems like it could be pretty funny/useful to give your team dragon at 2:40.
but your jungle start is so much later. The first blood bonus from a successful gank, plus your own farm would probably outweigh a quick dragon.
Shaco is such a weird champion. His kit would never it past the test phase if he was release now. Riot didn't even have the idea that he could jungle at first. His mechanics are so gimmicky.
I love him, but i know riot will be so resilient a buffing him. He's the kind of character people HATE play against even more than some of the Dota character.
On October 26 2011 23:13 WaveofShadow wrote: I wish I knew how to play AP Shaco properly. I can never seem to set up that perfect 4-5 box-bush insta-gank. I much prefer AD/jungler...not that Shaco leaves much room for error to begin with, but AD leaves more room for error I suppose since you can always clear for xp/levels.
On October 26 2011 21:50 Iplaythings wrote: I present to you; probally the most unpredictable shcao route yet Start longsword +1 potion, 21/0/9 masteries, armpen reds, AS quints and blues, armor reds put all your boxes at the red buff, smite the big wraith after you've killed the red you got 5 (!) different things to do Skillorder: WQWE if you got firstblood or just need to farm WQEW if you didn't get firstblood but still need to gank then R>W>E>Q Smite Ignite after red choose either route: 1; gank the other guy at blue buff / wolves. I recommend this when you're smurfing or stomping bad people, or all in all characters who will get low after blue buff. (Note; I advice against doing this against people who's likely to go wolves - wraiths - golems such as nocturne or skarner) Best case scenario: You kill both the enemy jungler and foolish mid lane who came to help and likely facechecked you in a bush and found a shaco with double buffs (this has happend often to me). After here, go whereever the fuck you want. Worst case scenario: you feed jungler and or mid and give red buff up, likely scenario: you kill their jungler (or burn their summoner) and escape their fierce mid and top lane by usng ninja skills (read: deceive) 2: Go gank mid lane, you usually dont kill this guy unless he is overextending by alot but you usually burn his flash and what not, but it's ok, hopefully you didn't waste ignite so you can go farm ur own jungle if you got low, go counterjungle if it seem's like agood idea or just stick around and hope the fool underestimates your hunger for firstbloods. 3. Gank sidelanes, top or bot depending if you're on the blue or purple team. After that do the same follow up to midlane. 4. Farm your jungle, usually dont do this cus then you'd be better off with spreading out your boxes to small golems etc.. the regi route yknow.. 5. Get the rest of your wolves /wraiths and go roam the shit out of their side of the map.
WHen you go back priotize these items first 1. wriggles (if you can get it in one, happily do so, it's worth delaying boots) 2. boots 3. cloth armor / vamp scepter - depends 4. madreds razor's (you rather want the vamp scepter + cloth than razor's only). WHne you have wriggles, get your boots of mobillity followed by a brutalizer if you can afford it fast (read: you're getting fed) if not, then build up a triforce or a wit's end if they have alot of MR. Then basically build whatever you need, LW for anti armor, Cleaver if they have no armor, IE if you want a PD as well, GA if you need tankiness (GA revive + instant deceive is the best!). Split bush, gank like a baws be a baws.
Pretty much copied from the most recent high-rated Shaco guide on SoloMid? Not a fan of this guide personally. The beginning is standard Red -->gank jungle route (gank at either 2 or 3, take your pick), nothing special, and then after it goes a little wonky with the Triforce....I still much prefer the on-hit items for damage/pushing like Wit's End or Cleaver into defence. Triforce just doesn't seem as useful on a character wiwth insane mobility and mid/high cooldowns. Bruta is a good call though.
Not unlikely that the guides are alike, mine isn't new or anything except for trinityforce preference? but i never read the solomid guide, believe what you want to though
On October 27 2011 06:37 Noocta wrote: Shaco is such a weird champion. His kit would never it past the test phase if he was release now. Riot didn't even have the idea that he could jungle at first. His mechanics are so gimmicky.
I love him, but i know riot will be so resilient a buffing him. He's the kind of character people HATE play against even more than some of the Dota character.
Absolutely agree that he would never get released these days, at this point I'm basically automatically on tilt whenever someone on the either team chooses Shaco, yes he is counterable but could they come up with a character that is more fucking annoying? His whole playstyle boils down to stacking traps in random grass and getting a couple non-skill based, undeserved kills in the early game then being useless after the enemy team starts getting oracles/wards.
On October 27 2011 06:37 Noocta wrote: Shaco is such a weird champion. His kit would never it past the test phase if he was release now. Riot didn't even have the idea that he could jungle at first. His mechanics are so gimmicky.
I love him, but i know riot will be so resilient a buffing him. He's the kind of character people HATE play against even more than some of the Dota character.
Absolutely agree that he would never get released these days, at this point I'm basically automatically on tilt whenever someone on the either team chooses Shaco, yes he is counterable but could they come up with a character that is more fucking annoying? His whole playstyle boils down to stacking traps in random grass and getting a couple non-skill based, undeserved kills in the early game then being useless after the enemy team starts getting oracles/wards.
honestly playing against shaco (as a jungler fearing being counterjungled) just means sacrificing some speed for safety. like yeah, you want to clear your jungle as fast as you can. but we're 2:50 into the game and you haven't found shaco yet on your CV. that means you absolutely don't go through your wraith brush on the way to wraiths. let's weigh the costs/benefits of doing so: 1) shaco isn't in the brush with 10 boxes. you go through. you complete your jungle as normal 2) shaco IS in the brush with 10 boxes. you try to go through. you give up FB and he dominates you for the rest of your lanes with your blue buff. 3) shaco isn't in the brush, you walk around the long way behind your second turret. you lose 15 seconds speed for nothing 4) shaco IS in the brush, you walk around the long way. you lose 15 seconds of speed but shaco just lost 2 minutes setting up boxes for a kill he won't get
likewise as a laner it requires the same precautions. we're 3:00 into the game, and CV shows enemy red has been taken. your lane opponent is low because you're outplaying him 1) he's baiting you. you don't take the bait, and play cautiously til you see shaco in another lane. you keep your CS lead, you both live. 2) he's baiting you. you go for a kill. shaco gets FB, your opponent gets an assist, comes to lane with a ward and your jungler never gets to help you catch up 3) he's not baiting you. you go for a kill. you get it, nice job! 4) he's not baiting you. you play safe, keeping your CS lead and when shaco appears you get the kill
shaco only works against people who don't ward, don't play cautiously, and can't evaluate the map before they make a move. that's why you won't see shaco in competitive high-level play, but he's a solo queue monster. as long as you take an extra second to think things through when playing against shaco you'll be fine. i like to tell my allies (when playing against shaco) "it's better to do nothing and not die, then it is to try something and die"
On October 27 2011 08:05 CeriseCherries wrote: I want to buy shaco :3 He can be the most annoying little bitch ever... almost half the normal games have a shaco now -.-
3v3 Normal is way worse Trynd/Shaco/X vs Trynd/Shaco/X 99% of the time.
On October 27 2011 08:05 CeriseCherries wrote: I want to buy shaco :3 He can be the most annoying little bitch ever... almost half the normal games have a shaco now -.-
3v3 Normal is way worse Trynd/Shaco/X vs Trynd/Shaco/X 99% of the time.
On October 27 2011 10:02 Arthemesia wrote: I haven't played much lately but are people playing shaco as mainly AP now or is he still popular as a jungler?
He's played both ways. AP shaco is more of a burst assassin whereas AD/jungle shaco is ( a jungler of course, and) more of a ganker/pusher.
Can we have a discussion on detailed jungling routes? I feel like it is a main part of jungle Shaco to be flexible. I talk about stuff like what I've posted (Brave Jungle Route) but maybe starting red or ganking at lvl 2 etc.
On November 04 2011 20:11 craaaaack wrote: Can we have a discussion on detailed jungling routes? I feel like it is a main part of jungle Shaco to be flexible. I talk about stuff like what I've posted (Brave Jungle Route) but maybe starting red or ganking at lvl 2 etc.
Cloth 5 Pot 2 boxes at mini golems 3 boxes at red smite big wraith golems -> red -> gank
Cloth 5 Pot stack boxes at blue smite enemy big wraith or do wolves smite own big wraith gank
Cloth 5 Pot stack boxes at blue set up boxes in enemy jungle counter like crazy
My favourite route: Boots 3 Pot (works with Blade 1 Pot, would only do it if your mid or bot/top depending on what side you are has a hard CC) Stack 4-5 boxes at your red smite big wraith at 1:40 do red gank asap.
So I just picked up shaco... used some of the jungle routes in here... 5 and 0 so far. He's pretty fun to play, and absp;utely rapes anyone that doesn't actively play well.
I absolutely fell in love with the homicidal harlequin, but I'm pretty green and nooby myself (16-24 stats @ level 11). So while in some games i absolutely snowball with First Blood and such, in most games I fail most of my ganks and the hero escapes barely to their tower. Of course that has to do with not having all skills and no runes, but still cripples me seeing heroes escape with 40hp.
However, how can I continue the game if I dont get kills and can't really force opponents out of their lane? Or worse, even die 1-2 times? It's hard keeping up XP-wise, not to speak of gold. I would really like to hear your emergency plans. All Shaco guides I found always assume that I DO get the kill, that I DO force them back - what if I don't?
I already buy Heart of Gold often against AD hardcarries (for Randuins), which helps somewhat...
Split-push all day every day. That's basicly what you can be forced to do, but it's relatively hard because most people will fuck up holding the 4v5 and thus make you lose some fights.
I absolutely fell in love with the homicidal harlequin, but I'm pretty green and nooby myself (16-24 stats @ level 11). So while in some games i absolutely snowball with First Blood and such, in most games I fail most of my ganks and the hero escapes barely to their tower. Of course that has to do with not having all skills and no runes, but still cripples me seeing heroes escape with 40hp.
However, how can I continue the game if I dont get kills and can't really force opponents out of their lane? Or worse, even die 1-2 times? It's hard keeping up XP-wise, not to speak of gold. I would really like to hear your emergency plans. All Shaco guides I found always assume that I DO get the kill, that I DO force them back - what if I don't?
I already buy Heart of Gold often against AD hardcarries (for Randuins), which helps somewhat...
The big mistake people make is forcing the issue. If you don't get first blood or have a rough bit of luck and die, bite your lip and resign yourself to more of a support role for the early game. Buy Boots of Speed and a couple extra healing potions. Jungle, cover lanes when necessary, and above all, watch the map for opponent mistakes. If the other team is playing conservatively, you might not get any kills, but your job is to keep them playing conservatively.
Using JitB as wards, your clone for damage, and Deceive to escape, you can push aggressively when given the opportunity. So if you got off to a bad start, don't necessarily go running off to team fights if you'd be abandoning a juicy lane. Gauge whether or not you'd be of any help, whether your presence (and time of arrival) would change anything. You might be of more value pushing down a tower, especially if you're under-farmed and under-leveled.
I'd recommend against any of the gold generating items on Shaco, because a) you can't start your build with any items that build into them and b) they don't help you gank. You have to maintain maximum offensive output and mobility at all times.
Critical damage, armor penetration, and flat AP runes will help tremendously with your jungling and ganking. At this point, I'm convinced that a hybrid Shaco is the stronger overall build, but AD Shaco is certainly easier to learn and play. Stick with that for the time being.
I absolutely fell in love with the homicidal harlequin, but I'm pretty green and nooby myself (16-24 stats @ level 11). So while in some games i absolutely snowball with First Blood and such, in most games I fail most of my ganks and the hero escapes barely to their tower. Of course that has to do with not having all skills and no runes, but still cripples me seeing heroes escape with 40hp.
However, how can I continue the game if I dont get kills and can't really force opponents out of their lane? Or worse, even die 1-2 times? It's hard keeping up XP-wise, not to speak of gold. I would really like to hear your emergency plans. All Shaco guides I found always assume that I DO get the kill, that I DO force them back - what if I don't?
I already buy Heart of Gold often against AD hardcarries (for Randuins), which helps somewhat...
The big mistake people make is forcing the issue. If you don't get first blood or have a rough bit of luck and die, bite your lip and resign yourself to more of a support role for the early game. Buy Boots of Speed and a couple extra healing potions. Jungle, cover lanes when necessary, and above all, watch the map for opponent mistakes. If the other team is playing conservatively, you might not get any kills, but your job is to keep them playing conservatively.
Using JitB as wards, your clone for damage, and Deceive to escape, you can push aggressively when given the opportunity. So if you got off to a bad start, don't necessarily go running off to team fights if you'd be abandoning a juicy lane. Gauge whether or not you'd be of any help, whether your presence (and time of arrival) would change anything. You might be of more value pushing down a tower, especially if you're under-farmed and under-leveled.
I'd recommend against any of the gold generating items on Shaco, because a) you can't start your build with any items that build into them and b) they don't help you gank. You have to maintain maximum offensive output and mobility at all times.
Critical damage, armor penetration, and flat AP runes will help tremendously with your jungling and ganking. At this point, I'm convinced that a hybrid Shaco is the stronger overall build, but AD Shaco is certainly easier to learn and play. Stick with that for the time being.
Avarice blade builds into ghostblade... So there's at least one gp/10 that it's not crazy for shaco to use. Not all shaco's like ghostblade though, I know saintvicious does, but he's also really fucking good (So his playstyle and decision making might work with ghostblade better than those with less aggressive or developed decision making skills).
I absolutely fell in love with the homicidal harlequin, but I'm pretty green and nooby myself (16-24 stats @ level 11). So while in some games i absolutely snowball with First Blood and such, in most games I fail most of my ganks and the hero escapes barely to their tower. Of course that has to do with not having all skills and no runes, but still cripples me seeing heroes escape with 40hp.
However, how can I continue the game if I dont get kills and can't really force opponents out of their lane? Or worse, even die 1-2 times? It's hard keeping up XP-wise, not to speak of gold. I would really like to hear your emergency plans. All Shaco guides I found always assume that I DO get the kill, that I DO force them back - what if I don't?
I already buy Heart of Gold often against AD hardcarries (for Randuins), which helps somewhat...
The big mistake people make is forcing the issue. If you don't get first blood or have a rough bit of luck and die, bite your lip and resign yourself to more of a support role for the early game. Buy Boots of Speed and a couple extra healing potions. Jungle, cover lanes when necessary, and above all, watch the map for opponent mistakes. If the other team is playing conservatively, you might not get any kills, but your job is to keep them playing conservatively.
Using JitB as wards, your clone for damage, and Deceive to escape, you can push aggressively when given the opportunity. So if you got off to a bad start, don't necessarily go running off to team fights if you'd be abandoning a juicy lane. Gauge whether or not you'd be of any help, whether your presence (and time of arrival) would change anything. You might be of more value pushing down a tower, especially if you're under-farmed and under-leveled.
I'd recommend against any of the gold generating items on Shaco, because a) you can't start your build with any items that build into them and b) they don't help you gank. You have to maintain maximum offensive output and mobility at all times.
Critical damage, armor penetration, and flat AP runes will help tremendously with your jungling and ganking. At this point, I'm convinced that a hybrid Shaco is the stronger overall build, but AD Shaco is certainly easier to learn and play. Stick with that for the time being.
Avarice blade builds into ghostblade... So there's at least one gp/10 that it's not crazy for shaco to use. Not all shaco's like ghostblade though, I know saintvicious does, but he's also really fucking good (So his playstyle and decision making might work with ghostblade better than those with less aggressive or developed decision making skills).
Ghostblade is a fine item, but you already auto-crit after Deceive. So the extra critical chance that Avarice provides is truly negligible. In AD builds (which I don't use much anymore), I get a relatively early Brutalizer and build it into Ghostblade only after finishing the rest of my build. The extra Avarice gold doesn't factor into it.
Shaco is so flexible, though, that you can make a case for a huge variety of builds. The key on Shaco (and all junglers, I suppose) is map awareness and intelligent decision-making, not which items you pick up. So go wild!
Also, be everywhere on the map atleast once earlygame. Be in their jungle, your jungle , top mid and bottom. Make them somewhat scared of overextending.
On December 01 2011 01:56 Unentschieden wrote: Another thing is that the jungler position is supposed to be optional, not mandatory. For that to be the case the jungler position needs to have tradeoffs and non-unique advantages. Junglers have the advantage of having easy access to the buffs and are constantly hidden by the fog of war. With the current setup they are also unlikely to get comperativly low hp-wise. In theory running 2-1-2 is fine if the sidelanes are capable of taking/protecting the jungleresources.
Fuck that, I don't want jungling to be optional.
Yep.
Too many people want to turn this game into DotA.
I think there are a lot of things that this game could learn from others in the genre, but the jungle is one of the things that's distinctly different about LoL, and is one of the things I feel they got right.
On December 01 2011 02:58 Frolossus wrote: it will take more than 2 boxes to take wolves i know wraiths take 4
No, I'm saying you actually do the wolves, not just box them and leave them. Put 4 boxes at blue. Do wolves with a box/some help at 1:40, then run to red and get someone to leash that, while the blue is doing itself.
On December 01 2011 02:58 Frolossus wrote: the point of his passive in the jungle is so that the boxes aggro the minions and cause them to face away from you. the problem is that leashing into boxes causes them to aggro wierdly
I'm not saying they leash the red into boxes. I'm saying they leash the red like they would for any other jungler. A proper leash should mean that you can autoattack the buff 1-2 times after it re-aggros to you and then smite it, without even having to use a box for it.
Like, it's not an issue of "I don't need a leash so I'm not going to get one". Your laners have nothing better to do from 1:40-1:55, so they may as well be helping you.
Posting here cause it's relevant. Anyone got the time to try out this idea? dbl buff gank at 2 mins and lvl 2 sounds scary, but dbl buff and lvl 3 ganks at 2:00 sounds even scarier...
Ok.... so ive been doing the 4 boxes blue, 2 red, lvl 2 dbl buff gank at 2:10.
Only problem is, sometimes blue dies to 4 boxes, sometimes it doesnt. I know getting someone to leash it fucks it up (i told ppl not to, but they still did). maybe box placement affects it? im placing them all at the back of blue, so i don't think it's that.... and it works fine in all the custom games ive run, does blue get stronger the more players in the game?
i dunno, it's just really weird to have it work only sometimes.
On December 01 2011 11:23 Dgiese wrote: Ok.... so ive been doing the 4 boxes blue, 2 red, lvl 2 dbl buff gank at 2:10.
Only problem is, sometimes blue dies to 4 boxes, sometimes it doesnt. I know getting someone to leash it fucks it up (i told ppl not to, but they still did). maybe box placement affects it? im placing them all at the back of blue, so i don't think it's that.... and it works fine in all the custom games ive run, does blue get stronger the more players in the game?
i dunno, it's just really weird to have it work only sometimes.
placement does affect it a lot because boxes sometimes hit the little dudes next to it running an AP quint or 2 should give you a little more lenience when trying to take it on 4 boxes
I absolutely fell in love with the homicidal harlequin, but I'm pretty green and nooby myself (16-24 stats @ level 11). So while in some games i absolutely snowball with First Blood and such, in most games I fail most of my ganks and the hero escapes barely to their tower. Of course that has to do with not having all skills and no runes, but still cripples me seeing heroes escape with 40hp.
However, how can I continue the game if I dont get kills and can't really force opponents out of their lane? Or worse, even die 1-2 times? It's hard keeping up XP-wise, not to speak of gold. I would really like to hear your emergency plans. All Shaco guides I found always assume that I DO get the kill, that I DO force them back - what if I don't?
I already buy Heart of Gold often against AD hardcarries (for Randuins), which helps somewhat...
The big mistake people make is forcing the issue. If you don't get first blood or have a rough bit of luck and die, bite your lip and resign yourself to more of a support role for the early game. Buy Boots of Speed and a couple extra healing potions. Jungle, cover lanes when necessary, and above all, watch the map for opponent mistakes. If the other team is playing conservatively, you might not get any kills, but your job is to keep them playing conservatively.
Using JitB as wards, your clone for damage, and Deceive to escape, you can push aggressively when given the opportunity. So if you got off to a bad start, don't necessarily go running off to team fights if you'd be abandoning a juicy lane. Gauge whether or not you'd be of any help, whether your presence (and time of arrival) would change anything. You might be of more value pushing down a tower, especially if you're under-farmed and under-leveled.
I'd recommend against any of the gold generating items on Shaco, because a) you can't start your build with any items that build into them and b) they don't help you gank. You have to maintain maximum offensive output and mobility at all times.
Critical damage, armor penetration, and flat AP runes will help tremendously with your jungling and ganking. At this point, I'm convinced that a hybrid Shaco is the stronger overall build, but AD Shaco is certainly easier to learn and play. Stick with that for the time being.
Yeah, I just swapped in a couple AP quints. I think one of the boxes was hitting one of the minions once(which fucked the whole thing up). But now with AP quints it's chill.
Hey, I just thought I would post that I have mained Shaco for a long time, and I play him so much diferrently than all the professionals do :S First of all, I hate jungling, I find it boring and I often can't depend on my solo top to actually hold their own if the other team DOESN'T have a jungler as well; secondly, I pair in a party with another high damage dealer in lane and always do amazing. I'm obv level 30 and am talking about ranked, but I'm sure I'll still take a lot of flak for this. I should really start streaming, because I never lose when I play lane shaco and my build is really strange. Essentially, I lane bottom with like a Fizz or a Teemo or someone who has a lot of early game DPS and usually get first and second (and third and forth and fifth etc) blood every time; setting us up to gank mid and top/invade the enemy jungle by like 12 minutes after taking our first tower at 5 minutes. The part that I find the MOST unorthodox though, is that I neglect jitb until I have literally maxed knife and decieve :/ People preach all day that it's the best skill or whatever, and in the jungle I have to agree; but it is less than useless for anything other than "free" wards as far as I'm concerned. I play Shaco as like a pure assassin/back-doorer and can burst down anyone in seconds in the early/midgame specifically because of the strength of early knife and decieve. I don't know, I just thought I would post for anyone who is just learning him and is under the assumption that he is strictly jungle, because it is clearly not the case. Thanks for reading
Getting 1 point in JitB can mean the difference in killing a champion or letting him slip with 5hp, and the difference between dying to a gank and getting away. Alllways get atleast 1 point at lvl4 in it. Do it. Its the law.
On December 02 2011 00:26 darkomen1290 wrote: Hey, I just thought I would post that I have mained Shaco for a long time, and I play him so much diferrently than all the professionals do :S First of all, I hate jungling, I find it boring and I often can't depend on my solo top to actually hold their own if the other team DOESN'T have a jungler as well; secondly, I pair in a party with another high damage dealer in lane and always do amazing. I'm obv level 30 and am talking about ranked, but I'm sure I'll still take a lot of flak for this. I should really start streaming, because I never lose when I play lane shaco and my build is really strange. Essentially, I lane bottom with like a Fizz or a Teemo or someone who has a lot of early game DPS and usually get first and second (and third and forth and fifth etc) blood every time; setting us up to gank mid and top/invade the enemy jungle by like 12 minutes after taking our first tower at 5 minutes. The part that I find the MOST unorthodox though, is that I neglect jitb until I have literally maxed knife and decieve :/ People preach all day that it's the best skill or whatever, and in the jungle I have to agree; but it is less than useless for anything other than "free" wards as far as I'm concerned. I play Shaco as like a pure assassin/back-doorer and can burst down anyone in seconds in the early/midgame specifically because of the strength of early knife and decieve. I don't know, I just thought I would post for anyone who is just learning him and is under the assumption that he is strictly jungle, because it is clearly not the case. Thanks for reading
Whats your summoner name? I'd like to see you do this in a game.
On December 02 2011 00:26 darkomen1290 wrote: Hey, I just thought I would post that I have mained Shaco for a long time, and I play him so much diferrently than all the professionals do :S First of all, I hate jungling, I find it boring and I often can't depend on my solo top to actually hold their own if the other team DOESN'T have a jungler as well; secondly, I pair in a party with another high damage dealer in lane and always do amazing. I'm obv level 30 and am talking about ranked, but I'm sure I'll still take a lot of flak for this. I should really start streaming, because I never lose when I play lane shaco and my build is really strange. Essentially, I lane bottom with like a Fizz or a Teemo or someone who has a lot of early game DPS and usually get first and second (and third and forth and fifth etc) blood every time; setting us up to gank mid and top/invade the enemy jungle by like 12 minutes after taking our first tower at 5 minutes. The part that I find the MOST unorthodox though, is that I neglect jitb until I have literally maxed knife and decieve :/ People preach all day that it's the best skill or whatever, and in the jungle I have to agree; but it is less than useless for anything other than "free" wards as far as I'm concerned. I play Shaco as like a pure assassin/back-doorer and can burst down anyone in seconds in the early/midgame specifically because of the strength of early knife and decieve. I don't know, I just thought I would post for anyone who is just learning him and is under the assumption that he is strictly jungle, because it is clearly not the case. Thanks for reading
Could you post a couple of replays of your playstyle? I'd love to see it.
I absolutely fell in love with the homicidal harlequin, but I'm pretty green and nooby myself (16-24 stats @ level 11). So while in some games i absolutely snowball with First Blood and such, in most games I fail most of my ganks and the hero escapes barely to their tower. Of course that has to do with not having all skills and no runes, but still cripples me seeing heroes escape with 40hp.
However, how can I continue the game if I dont get kills and can't really force opponents out of their lane? Or worse, even die 1-2 times? It's hard keeping up XP-wise, not to speak of gold. I would really like to hear your emergency plans. All Shaco guides I found always assume that I DO get the kill, that I DO force them back - what if I don't?
I already buy Heart of Gold often against AD hardcarries (for Randuins), which helps somewhat...
The big mistake people make is forcing the issue. If you don't get first blood or have a rough bit of luck and die, bite your lip and resign yourself to more of a support role for the early game. Buy Boots of Speed and a couple extra healing potions. Jungle, cover lanes when necessary, and above all, watch the map for opponent mistakes. If the other team is playing conservatively, you might not get any kills, but your job is to keep them playing conservatively.
Using JitB as wards, your clone for damage, and Deceive to escape, you can push aggressively when given the opportunity. So if you got off to a bad start, don't necessarily go running off to team fights if you'd be abandoning a juicy lane. Gauge whether or not you'd be of any help, whether your presence (and time of arrival) would change anything. You might be of more value pushing down a tower, especially if you're under-farmed and under-leveled.
I'd recommend against any of the gold generating items on Shaco, because a) you can't start your build with any items that build into them and b) they don't help you gank. You have to maintain maximum offensive output and mobility at all times.
Critical damage, armor penetration, and flat AP runes will help tremendously with your jungling and ganking. At this point, I'm convinced that a hybrid Shaco is the stronger overall build, but AD Shaco is certainly easier to learn and play. Stick with that for the time being.
What would be your item build for a hybrid shaco?
I needed an alternative to Wriggle's in order to still jungle with this build, and Bilgewater -> Hextech is the only legitimate option. I use armor penetration marks, flat armor or mana regeneration seals, flat AP glyphs, and flat AP quints.
- Boots of Speed + 3 Health Potions - Bilgewater Cutlass - Finish Boots of Mobility - Finish Hextech Gunblade - Guinsoo's Rageblade - Lichbane, starting with Sheen
Gold-wise, it's a realistic build for a jungler. If you're super fed or it's a long game, cap it off with Morello's and/or Guardian Angel. Lich Bane does physical damage, so you really do want armor penetration marks.
With cdr blues and quints, the 4% mastery and micro, you can clear red, blue, and wolves, and be one creep away from lvl 3. Potentially, you can reach lvl 3 as shaco before top can get close to lvl 2 depending on leash.
With utility mastery, you can get to lvl 3 without that one creep exp, and set up the 6 boxes needed to lizard faster before 1:40, but you give up the offensive mastery tree.
Also RIGHT before they changed the masteries Honver and I spent about an hour fine tuning a lv 1 dragon strat on shaco. That shit was SO LEGIT until they patched and now it's useless looooool.
Things you can do better from the vid that 5hitcombo posted. If you give up that stupid quint bonus exp, you can get to lvl 3 off one lane creep. That's not hard. I'd rather get another quint than bonus exp. Blues, change atk speed blues for either cdr or ap, You can get to 10 ap off partial blue runes and 1 ap quint than 2 ap quints. I think this is better than some crappy atk speed bonus. With Micro, you can get to red by 25 seconds. Boxes last 90 seconds, 5 seconds if they activate fear. YOu can potentially shave approximately 4 seconds from that video by doing that. CDR blues and the cdr 4% offensive mastery allows you to get to wolves before 1:40.
On December 25 2011 17:52 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also RIGHT before they changed the masteries Honver and I spent about an hour fine tuning a lv 1 dragon strat on shaco. That shit was SO LEGIT until they patched and now it's useless looooool.
Hmm.. I was asking people what they thought about that here (or maybe it was the EU LP?) and everyone just shut it down saying that it wouldn't put you far enough ahead to be worth it.
The main reason people might have been against it was probably due to the Exp Quint. I will try out what numbers mentioned - but I never really had the need for it though. Plus Shaco banned all the time ((
So after the box duration nerf you can only cast 4 boxes before the jungle spawns. This is what I've been doing.
1) 4 boxes at small golem starting at ~0:45. This gives your first box a good 5 seconds to deal damage before expiring. 2) Do small golem as soon as it spawns and have a teammate be on standby to leash red. 3) Have teammate leash lizard. Make sure to backstab the lizard while it's still leashed. Clear red with box + smite. 4) Wraiths, Wolves then Blue. Your smite should be back up by then.
How does one deal with an enemy jungle shaco? I very often solo queue ranked as Ahri, and when Shaco shows up at lvl2 with a red buff i find it hard to escape even with Flash. Past 6 I can get away easier with my ult but if he ganks other lanes it's still very hard to deal with. Do I just ward more often and pray to god that someone's paying attention? He can also deceive over walls which is very annoying to deal with whether he's using it for a surprise gank or as an escape tool.
Rather easy answer is to just play passive the first three levels. Had to learn that top lane when Lee Sin's level 2 gank strength was abused every game. Don't force trades really early on, and if you start getting zoned just ask for your jungler to come after wraiths before you miss out on too much cs.
I would think that you are overextended at that point if he ganks lvl 2? I mean ive done lvl2 shaco ganks but most people will be out of range to escape that;;
So I've been trying out shaco and I have a problem with sustain in the jungle. To my knowledge he supposed to gank a ton correct? Well after doing 3-4 camps I'm always too low to attack a lane without risking death.
Also, around late mid-game shaco gets ultra squish and can basically be one shot by anyone, how do you guys counter this? If he makes defensive items does he become useless?
On April 04 2012 03:02 ibreakurface wrote: So I've been trying out shaco and I have a problem with sustain in the jungle. To my knowledge he supposed to gank a ton correct? Well after doing 3-4 camps I'm always too low to attack a lane without risking death.
Also, around late mid-game shaco gets ultra squish and can basically be one shot by anyone, how do you guys counter this? If he makes defensive items does he become useless?
I think you might be making a mistake in your JitB placement. You might have to wait for the cd to place 2 JitB for some camps so that they tank and the creeps die by then. If that doesnt help you have to go to the old school method of porting back or getting more pots. His hp pool is fairly low so you can pot up to almost full health easily.
Started off With W (Jack in the box), buy boots + 3 pots.
Run to your wraiths, place 1 box at 0:43 seconds.
Everytime your box cooldown is up place it ontop of exactly where the Red lizard will spawn. You'll be able to get 3 down and it'll be about 1:35 or so. Go over to wraiths, they'll spawn at 1:40. They'll get feared, dps down the big wraith. You should be able to kill 1 or maybe 2 of the small wraiths (depending if you crit at all or more backstab attacks), when it gets to about 1:52 or so start to run towards your Red. (There will still be 1 or 2 small wraiths up, this is okay, tell your Mid to clear them out when he gets a chance)
Red will spawn, your boxes will fear, immediately place another box while the fear is happening. Kill this whole camp WITHOUT using smite. Put a point into Q.
Make your way over to blue, Use your W to place a box over the wall so it spawns almost on top of Blue. Use Q and wait for the box to fear Blue. Open up on blue. You'll be able to use your smite here, clear the whole camp.
You are now level 3 at about 2:40 or so. Immediately go towards top or bottom (depending if you are blue/purple) or mid. If the gank fails go to the next lane, then the next, then the next.
Honestly for the next couple of minutes (while you still have the lizard buffs) you should be running lane to lane to lane trying to gank.
Depends, if I get a gank or two early I'll go back, grab a couple hp pots and buy a brutalizer. This is such a huge boost to your damage especially if you can get it by say the 5 minute mark. At that point you can start to counter jungle and/or keep going lane to lane making sure every lane wins.
Usually though yes, it's Wriggles into Boots of Mobility into your regular AD carry items, IE, BT, PD. At least this is how i play him anyway.
I use AD reds, armor yellows, MR blues and MS or AD quints depending.
I also run 21/0/9 with all your basic AD offense talents the 9 into utility to get the extended buff duration.
Unsure if other players follow these exact builds but it's what I use when I play shaco and it seems to work nicely.
On April 19 2012 14:49 randomKo_Orean wrote: What about masteries and build order? I heard you should go 9-0-21 for the experience boost from the utility tree. I'm guessing Apen/AD runes with wriggles, boots of mobility.... and then what?
Nah, go 21/0/9, taking all the AD from Offense (basically everything on the left side) and then the speed boost and buff increase in Utility.
For items I'd start boots+3, then rush Wriggles lantern. Wriggles increases your clear speed siginificantly, allows you to solo dragon within 30~ seconds as early as level six (kinda risky) and allows you to be a dangerous split pushing force when you no longer a threat to enemy champions.
Other than that build as you need. It kinda silly to build as a huge glass cannon because you kinda useless in teamfights anyway. Its worth noting with your Ult, wriggles, and a Madreds Bloodrazer Shaco can solo Baron rather easily and safely, should there come a time when people just randomly out of position or you know they dont have wards you can do that as well.
Other than that, gank early and as often as possible, then just split push and pressure map objectives once the late game hits. Shaco is a terrible teamfighter, it is almost pointless to be there int he firstplace. Especially since after the 25 minute mark or so he can kill towers ridiculously fast with ult.
It's pretty hard to find any relevant information on shaco because most of the info out there is old and noone really plays shaco that much. Im training in normals to see if I can bring shaco to ranked play, and I'm having some success, but have a few questions.
1) If mid/bot (or top depending on the side) is pushed at level 2 right after you've finished red buff, do you attempt a gank? I know shaco has some of the best pre 6 ganks and most of the good shacos I've seen have lvl 2 ganked, but I can almost never do so effectively. The best I can do usually is use exhaust on a mid gank and force a flash and a back, but I'm not sure if it's worth it to use exhaust for my mid lane to get up 15 or so CS.
2) What to build after wriggles? I've seen some people say you need to build a bruatalizer ASAP, while some say you need to rush to either a bloodrazor, triforce, or Black Cleaver. I've been going bloodrazor for super fast barons usually followed up by a GA, but that's just because I picked something, I don't really know what's best.
On August 24 2012 11:54 Arisen wrote: It's pretty hard to find any relevant information on shaco because most of the info out there is old and noone really plays shaco that much. Im training in normals to see if I can bring shaco to ranked play, and I'm having some success, but have a few questions.
1) If mid/bot (or top depending on the side) is pushed at level 2 right after you've finished red buff, do you attempt a gank? I know shaco has some of the best pre 6 ganks and most of the good shacos I've seen have lvl 2 ganked, but I can almost never do so effectively. The best I can do usually is use exhaust on a mid gank and force a flash and a back, but I'm not sure if it's worth it to use exhaust for my mid lane to get up 15 or so CS.
2) What to build after wriggles? I've seen some people say you need to build a bruatalizer ASAP, while some say you need to rush to either a bloodrazor, triforce, or Black Cleaver. I've been going bloodrazor for super fast barons usually followed up by a GA, but that's just because I picked something, I don't really know what's best.
when i do play shaco i like the phage into triforce build.
if you arent tanky you'll just die when shit gets going down
On September 11 2012 06:17 cLutZ wrote: What is Shaco's gank combo. Every Shaco I've played against was just terrible so I have no idea how he is played well.
Q in, drop a box box behind them, begin autoattacking them, use E only once they have a lead or you need to execute them.
On September 11 2012 06:17 cLutZ wrote: What is Shaco's gank combo. Every Shaco I've played against was just terrible so I have no idea how he is played well.
Q in, drop a box box behind them, begin autoattacking them, use E only once they have a lead or you need to execute them.
it should also be noted later on if you go sheen/trinity force that you would obviously E a lot quicker for the second sheen proc allowing you to roughly 3 shot the enemy AD
I picked up Shaco a couple weeks ago and have been having some good times with him since then. Does anybody know of a really good guide out there? What kind of runes are generally best?
On February 06 2013 17:23 GolemMadness wrote: I picked up Shaco a couple weeks ago and have been having some good times with him since then. Does anybody know of a really good guide out there? What kind of runes are generally best?
I generally go something like this for runes: Flat AD Red Armor Yellow Scaling MR Blues Apen Quints
On February 06 2013 17:23 GolemMadness wrote: I picked up Shaco a couple weeks ago and have been having some good times with him since then. Does anybody know of a really good guide out there? What kind of runes are generally best?
I generally go something like this for runes: Flat AD Red Armor Yellow Scaling MR Blues Apen Quints
AD quints, arpen reds if you want to do that. AD is more efficient than both AS and Arpen in that slot.
What do you guys think about trinity force on Shaco? Spellblade just makes Q even more powerful, icy works with his E passive and overall the stats are very useful on him.
I like to Jungle Shaco sometimes. I copy the YoungMini Build from S2.
Machete5 start Item Build Core: Wriggles/Hexdrinker/Zerker Greaves or Tabi/Mercs if I can afford/need. Core 3 items. -I don't like phage or triforce as I get a slow from 2 shiv and Id rather have the MR +shield for when I dive into fights. Also you don't get nearly enough money from the Jungle to afford to complete triforce in a timely manner as you lack any durability from items/abilities. Runes: AD Red, AR yellows, AS Blues (Flat or Scaling MR if scary burst mid) MS Quints. I like MS quints as it makes catching up to fleeing laners much easier and makes landing 2-shiv much easier. Personal preference. Masteries: 21/9/0. Summoners: Smite Ghost since deceive is better than flash
-With new aggro mechanic in the jungle boxes take aggro much more reliably in S3 than in S2. I like this build as it provides solid dmg throughout the midgame while allowing excellent drag control with razor or wriggles once you hit lvl 6. Usually grab some HP via giants belt or kindlegem OR my preference in the heavier resists in the form of GA.
Jungle Start:
-I like to start wraiths-->Red->Blue in gank every lane. 2 boxes at wraiths, 1st box at wraiths at 0:45. After those 2 the next 2-3 boxes into red. Save smite and go get Blue. Easy level 3 before some laners can get lvl 2. Time to Gank!
-Cant be stressed enough that you must take adv of his passive and backstab as much as possible. It will significantly increase your clear times for buffs. It makes a HUGE difference in HP lost as well as creating earlier lvl 3 timings to gank a lane when they have not hit lvl 2-3.
Role:
-Your job is to punish any lane who over extends, especially the sidelanes.
Tools to do this:
-Deceive allows you to take avoid common warding spots such as bot/top tribrush, drag, and especially mid lane when ganking. Deceive over walls next to the river, surprise enemy laner, snowball lane for your laner.
-Deceive's range is longer than it looks, you can hop over many walls that Trist or Corki would fail miserably at (ex bot lane "ridge wall" near to the bottom right of the tribrush.
-Note: Please, please don't take every kill, your solo laners or adc could really use the gold and they will use it more efficiently as Shaco's early-midgame power curve tapers off hard late game. You are there to murder enemy laners, make them scared/paranoid to extend or trade in lane for fear of surprise deceive crit+ box fear+ shiv slow. Proceed to snowball the lane. Deceive crit + shiv makes it really easy to steal kills from laners, dont take all kills.
-The thing with shaco is, you are melee, you are squishy, and you do not scale really well into the lategame. You are enormously powerful in the early to midgame with deceives broken stealth mechanic. Carrying a game usually means a >25 min game. If you go glass cannon melee, you melt after the initial deceive crit + few autos when enemy team turns on you. That is why a build much tankier into the late-midgame, using heavier resists as well as the Hexdrinker and GA proc to keep me alive through burst during teamfights.
-Your Ult: love it. use it to split push towers, use it to scout ahead, use it to dps, use it to duel, use it to tank objectives like drag/baron while you position yourself to backstab. The ult also has a tiny, tiny invulnerability frame right as you activate the clone. It is similar to fizz's E, except not nearly as long of invulnerability time. If you time it right you can avoid single target spells such as Olaf E, or my personal favaorite to try and dodge, Karthus Requiem :D
-If you fall behind (failed ganks, etc) you can become fairly useless as you need the levels/items to compete in damage and survivability.
-Im bad with boxes when ganking, but try to place them in the likely path laner is taking to get the fear off, but I rarely get the fear off tbh.
-A whole guide can be written about jack-in the box placement/use. Im not that great at it but heres something I use -Sometimes I cheese the enemy jungler who I am almost certain will start blue (ex mummy, naut). Lay at box at your blue at 1:00ish. Then run to their wraiths and lay 2 or so boxes at 1:30/1:46 in wraith side brush. Use another box at your blue and get help from laners to take blue without smite. Run back to wraith brush with your boxes. Wait for enemy jungler to facecheck brush, if they do will take huge dmg at lvl 2 from box dps + fear, even without getting FB this can often force them to go back while I'm free to steal red. -If the jungler doesnt appear through this brush then you know he is ganking that side's lane OR mid lane OR possibly invading your jungle (possible with nunu's, skarners etc). Let your team know and mess up their jungle by only taking the big creeps or ganking another lane. Teamfights: -Shaco has to wait for the initiate, wait for the big burst/cc to be blown by enemy and try to pick off low hp targets with deceive backstab crit and 2 shiv + Clone dps. -Shaco can't go toe to toe duel with a tanky dps, but you can pick off that low support/adc/ap who has blow their big cooldowns. You can duel adcs to some extent with clone, but that relies on being tricky with deceiveclone to avoid skillshots/burst and dps them dowm
That is all I can think of at the moment. Hopefully this is coherent and helpful
So are there any Dominion players that have an opinion on Shaco? Because, to be quite honest, I find him to be quite literally useless. His damage is incredibly sub-par and he brings little to nothing to team fights. Has anyone found him to be useful in Dominion aside from backdooring?
Does anyone else have a problem with Shaco where people will start whining when you pick him? I don't get it. I don't see this happen on any other champion except for like Heimerdinger.
It's primarily because shaco singlehandedly wins or loses games. A good shaco terror's the other team into playing defensively while a bad shaco lets the other team run roughshod since shaco explodes if he's behind.
Shaco also pretty much demands a different playstyle from your allies. It's not even a matter of what's good or not, it's just that people like to play in a set way. You are a squishy jungler, so that means someone else has to pick a tank or you have no frontline. This is actually the main reason I sometimes get annoyed at a shaco pick, because I usually play squishier top laners. You also are kinda bad at teamfights, so you need a team that can deal with you going off and split pushing most of the later game. Mind you, if you get enough ahead in the early game it would not matter, your team could a-move to victory, but why should your team think you're that good before the game?
On May 13 2013 16:33 soverelgne wrote: Shaco also pretty much demands a different playstyle from your allies. It's not even a matter of what's good or not, it's just that people like to play in a set way. You are a squishy jungler, so that means someone else has to pick a tank or you have no frontline. This is actually the main reason I sometimes get annoyed at a shaco pick, because I usually play squishier top laners. You also are kinda bad at teamfights, so you need a team that can deal with you going off and split pushing most of the later game. Mind you, if you get enough ahead in the early game it would not matter, your team could a-move to victory, but why should your team think you're that good before the game?
Ok, but lots of champions have trouble if they fall behind, and Fiddlesticks is a squishy jungler as well, and I've never once seen somebody complain about him. I'd maybe understand if I had bad stats with him or something, but I don't, so it's just really bizarre and annoying.
On May 13 2013 15:25 Lmui wrote: It's primarily because shaco singlehandedly wins or loses games. A good shaco terror's the other team into playing defensively while a bad shaco lets the other team run roughshod since shaco explodes if he's behind.
Yeah, pretty much this.
A bad shaco is like the most dead weight champion in the game.
A good Shaco gets all his lanes ahead, and has ridiculous map pressure all game long. Even good Shaco's sometimes get screwed in SoloQueue because people are too dumb to abuse his splitpush potential as Shaco. (and at lower levels, they dont take advantage of pressure the enemy team swings back to counter Shacos pushing)
On May 13 2013 16:33 soverelgne wrote: Shaco also pretty much demands a different playstyle from your allies. It's not even a matter of what's good or not, it's just that people like to play in a set way. You are a squishy jungler, so that means someone else has to pick a tank or you have no frontline. This is actually the main reason I sometimes get annoyed at a shaco pick, because I usually play squishier top laners. You also are kinda bad at teamfights, so you need a team that can deal with you going off and split pushing most of the later game. Mind you, if you get enough ahead in the early game it would not matter, your team could a-move to victory, but why should your team think you're that good before the game?
Ok, but lots of champions have trouble if they fall behind, and Fiddlesticks is a squishy jungler as well, and I've never once seen somebody complain about him. I'd maybe understand if I had bad stats with him or something, but I don't, so it's just really bizarre and annoying.
Because those other champions can still do something if they fall behind and they're not as snowbally. Shaco is absolutely completely useless if he doesn't snowball. Heck, if he comes out even with the enemy jungler 9 times out of 10 the other guy will be more useful.
In your example, Fiddlesticks is also very squishy and calls for a different off lane pick, but he brings a TON more to the table than Shaco. Fiddle ult is deadly without items and he also has a 3 second fear and a 1+ second silence. Shaco has nothing but a mediocre slow and a very unreliable fear. His damage output is also not that good if he's not ahead.
Every single popular jungle brings a lot to the table without having to be fed.
I'm currently spamming Shaco games and he seems a lot better than I thought previously. I haven't really touched him since S2 but he's feeling just as good if not better than I remember. Especially with the new Tiamat active, his pushing/farming ability seems to be greatly improved.
The current meta of faster towers, pushing, and aggressive junglers really seems to have helped shaco a lot. An early Tiamat gives him the wave clearing ability to keep up with other popular champs and less towers is just more room to do funny things. And now with most solo lanes starting ward+regen instead of the old boots+3, your initial ganks are absolute murder. I find that since Shaco is so good at bypassing wards, the ward start really only gives people the false confidence to extend just a bit too far. Especially top lane, decieving directly into the river bush from the blue side and ghosting at them pretty much guarantees that you'll be right next to them before they notice you.
Currently trying a lot of different builds/summoners/masteries but I'm really liking Spirit Stone -> Mobility -> Lizard Elder ->Tiamat -> Whatever damage items. Usually Bruta/Zephyr. Smite/Ghost, 21-9-0 I like wriggles a lot but after playing around, I've decided that lifesteal is a luxury you can't afford and the regen from Lizard+Tiamat is a reasonable compromise. Lizard is too cost efficient in terms of raw damage per auto and the mana regen/cdr are integral to playing shaco properly, with boxes everywhere. The Tiamat helps your farming speed, wave clear, and most importantly, gives you more front loaded, scaling burst which is much needed since I don't get StaticShiv.
Need to try swapping Tiamat and Lizard on the item build, and taking Flash since I find it makes you basically uncatchable in late game split pushing. Any suggestions or ideas on items or otherwise? I find that tiamat/hydra and max cdr are basically required for late game as your primary role is wasting the enemy team's time. A 6.5 second invis, long range flash + 5 second, long range 30% slow + preemptive box breadcrumb trail is retardedly strong. Running cdr/level and flat cdr blue mixture to hit the last 10% cdr after lizard/bruta/zephyr. Ignite is good for jungle duels but I find most people tend to run from shaco 1v1 in the jungle anyway and in lane ganks, ignites are almost always used.
So I take back what I said about ignite, with my current build of just rushing Lizard before boots, I feel that ignite is a lot stronger since you spend less time looking for ganks and more time hunting their jungler to either kill them or counter gank. As for jungle path, right now I'm just trying to mirror the enemy jungler's movements in order to better have a sense of where they are. If i think they will start blue -> red, I'll go red -> blue and wait for their lvl 3 gank etc.
I've been going Lizard -> mobility -> tiamat -> zephyr but someone recommended me Lizard -> mobility -> BotRK with tiamat later so I'll have to try that out some.
Masteries: 21 points or more into offense is standard. I usually go with 26/1/3 (with 4% CDR, APpen, improved smite and the extra MS) - R (lv3) = 600 base AP dmg, E = 400+ AP dmg lategame, W = ~100 AP dmg/hit and shiv also deals AP dmg (100 x 1-4, depending on how many people are in range + double shiv dmg due to the guaranteed crit of Shaco's Q) - or 21/9/0 (save option), 21/0/9 (when I don't have any mp-dependend champ in my team / can take blue buff everytime or I go for heavy counter-jungling)
Runes: Damage-oriented rune setups preferred: AD > AS > ADpen (AD preferred due to the guaranteed crits in early game) - I usually go for AD Quints / AD Marks / AR Yellows / 8x Flat CDR Blues 1x AD Blue (so you get 15 -> 16 AD) - But Shaco doesn't require AR Yellows (AS instead), you can go for MS Qunits or maybe MR/18 Blues, AS Blues, maybe even 1 crit rune if you pray to the RNG-gods etc.
Items: I never, never, never in any possible scenario waste money on Elder Lizard / Spirit Stone (+ it will get nerfed anyway). I usually leave Machete unupgraded or go for Madreds (+1 vision ward) when I went with lategame-focused rune/masterie-setups or want to solo drake @lv6, which is always a good option when you fall behind early for whatever reason. BotRK is basically the alpha and omega of Shaco (AD, AS, LS and the item active is awesome on Shaco for so many reasons), so I basically rush it most of the times after t2 boots. My 2nd item usually is Shiv or Tiamat/Hydra for splitpushing - obviously Shaco is a single target dmgdealer so you need at least one of the 2 options for splitpushing. Lategame you want to itemize around getting 40% CDR so you have the luxury to Q in and Q out of a TF. If you play enough games with Shaco you will know how to itemize vs which champs depending on how far behind/ahead you are. Some fancy item combos: Infinity+SotD = cheap build to 4 shot carries if thats your style, BotRK+Hydra = 10% HP -> 100% HP with one by killing 1 creep wave, can't think of anything else funny right now.
The most simple starting route with Shaco: Wraith -> Red -> Blue -> gank (if you are gold elo or below, invade enemy Red -> First Blood)
I'll just leave it at that for the time being since I don't feel like writing a giant wall of text that no one cares about.
Hey, thanks for the reply! Why do you consider Elder Lizard a waste of money? I figure since Shaco is not usually rolling in gold, he should look for cheaper, gold efficient items over large investments. I know this has been discussed to death but Elder Lizard, compared to a BF sword or brutalizer, is an insane cost efficiency for damage. And I figure Shaco wants to do as much damage, as fast as possible. I just find that Elder Lizard is superior over any other cheap, small part damage item.
I've been toying around with BotRK which I love on a lot of champs but it just feels so lackluster on Shaco for me. For the price, you could get a Tiamat+Stinger which if we compare, is
25 attack damage vs 40 attack damage 5% hp on hit vs faster pushing/farming 15% life steal vs 10% cdr 40% attack speed vs 40% attack speed +15 hp regen
The active portion definitely favors BotRK but the damage is similar since tiamat scales with a 1:1 ratio and you rarely focus tanky people. The slow is nice but again, I find it redundant as rarely do I feel a little bit more slow would be the make or break point in my engagements. Also, the 10% cdr helps me hit max cdr pretty fast and cdr is a hard stat for shaco to itemize for. It just seems to me that the damage BotRK provides is pretty similar to tiamat/stinger while losing aoe clear and cdr. Also, stinger builds into Zephyr which is great addition later on due to the tenacity and 10% movement speed (both invaluable in split pushing).
How do you itemize for max cdr in your builds? Especially since you omit lizard/stinger.
How do you manage your mana? I find that since I have very high cdr and pretty much nonstop spam boxes as I'm moving, the mana regen from elder lizard is invaluable. And to reiterate, while life steal is nice, I personally find that the hp regen from tiamat/lizard is enough to keep me going through the jungle. (not to mention both of those items increases your jungle speed by huge amounts).
Good point about SotD, I haven't really looked into that item yet, I'll do so soon!
Hmm, now that I think about it my thoughts about Elder Lizard might be a bit negative due to my bad pre-buff EL experience. But even after the buffs it didn't really give me the same power spike compared to finishing items like a BotRK earlier... the hp/mp regen is nice but you have to compare the spirit stone (weaker camp clearing and counter-jungling) vs madreds (proc + armor, an actual combat stat), especially a problem when you want to solo drake @lv6 or force objectives as an entire team early on. Sacrificing this timing window alone in soloQ is reason enough for me to skip EL. But yeah, Elder Lizard is insanely cost efficient even without the true damage passive etc. currently. I'll better give it a try again.
Some random mana calculation stuff regarding box spam on high CDR: + Show Spoiler +
Mid- to lategame Shaco has 700-1000 mp, 10-14 mp/5, W cost = 50-70 mp (since W is maxed last it will be a bit lower) with ~11 secs CD (assuming ~30% CDR reduction here), EL gives +7 mp/5. Also assuming that you want a keep a puffer of ~ 300 mp to cast skills in case of fights etc. and that you don't use Q and E often to run around / farm. -> Ergo, the mana regen is quite nice to have
When you compare BotRK to Tiamat+Stinger keep in mind that when you go SS + t1 boots -> EL, I go madreds + mobility boots -> parts of BotRK so I get an earlier power spike. Theoretically I even get the vamp scepter for that little amount of sustain that Shaco needs as a minimum before your EL is finished. Also, based on my experience having the item active (slow and heal bait etc.) secured me a lot of kills / saved me a lot of times. It helps during ganks, when you want to stick to targets (which is basically any meele champs biggest weakness) etc. Keep in mind that Shaco's clone also gets all those fancy stats like 5% max health dmg. Depending on the game / length of laning phase you sometimes don't even need the pushing power that early. If you don't fall behind early on you should rather abuse Shaco's strength / timing windows during mid game or group up, force towers. Especially when someone in your team is fed. I heavyly dislike the idea of downgrading Shaco primarily to a split pusher.
How do I itemize for CDR? Hard to say considering that Shaco can control all 4 buffs, so you somtimes end up with 20 bonus CDR, sometimes not. Thus focusing on CDR can always end up being a waste of gold. Investing into blue pots is also an option later on. I usually for go 4% CDR masteries + 6-7% CDR from runes, 10% from bruta and then bank on getting blue buff. But I have the option to add another 10% CDR item like stinger or/and buy blue pots etc. - maybe CDR boots or scaling CDR runes to add some weird options here. The huge advantage of you build is that you end up with 30% CDR quite early, while I run around with 10% - 20%, but I don't know what to think about it considering that you can secure blues for yourself. Overall I think focusing on getting 40% CDR on Shaco is a matter of playstyle and team comps.
Havent tried BotRK i used to get BT after wriggles recently i have been doing mallet hexdrinker or straight triforce if im ahead. But the argument for bork makes sense
That's basically how I always try to play shaco, although it's been awhile since I've gotten botrk. I like starting Madreds > boots 1 > Avarice > boots 2 > shiv > hydra
Although, usually after shiv + hydra I feel the need to get a tanky item so I'm not completely squishy, usually sunfire, to split push even faster. Then at that point I'd rather get Last Whisper since everybody else can get be so tanky at that point.
Maybe I'll have to give BotRK a try though, but it's hard to justify delaying shiv + hydra since they make shaco a pushing nightmare.
The way im currently building shaco (work in progress as i buy my last few runes) is a straight up attk speed asassain. Currently with masteries and runes im sitting at about 30%+ at lvl 1, with about 9 ad. Yes i am not running armor or mres runes. Pure offense is the way to with shaco. First item might be a dorans blade or the machette/5 pot depending on the enemy jungle and if i think i can duel them early and win. Junglers that i start dorans blade against are Lee Sin, Nautilus, and nocturne so far. Against a nunu u need a machette. I may or may not upgrade my machette depending on how the game going and if there is a Nunu. Core items are madreds->zerker greaves->hydra->shiv->ghostblade for the best split push. usually i go with aclarity on boots but homeguards are taken as needed. I also try to keep a mana pot or two in my inventory as well, until lategame, as shaco's mana costs are pretty high and sometimes i have to pop a mana pot for a gank or escape. I really hope they fix that...
On July 13 2013 02:31 BallOOnz wrote: The way im currently building shaco (work in progress as i buy my last few runes) is a straight up attk speed asassain. Currently with masteries and runes im sitting at about 30%+ at lvl 1, with about 9 ad. Yes i am not running armor or mres runes. Pure offense is the way to with shaco. First item might be a dorans blade or the machette/5 pot depending on the enemy jungle and if i think i can duel them early and win. Junglers that i start dorans blade against are Lee Sin, Nautilus, and nocturne so far. Against a nunu u need a machette. I may or may not upgrade my machette depending on how the game going and if there is a Nunu. Core items are madreds->zerker greaves->hydra->shiv->ghostblade for the best split push. usually i go with aclarity on boots but homeguards are taken as needed. I also try to keep a mana pot or two in my inventory as well, until lategame, as shaco's mana costs are pretty high and sometimes i have to pop a mana pot for a gank or escape. I really hope they fix that...
This sounds really bad, you definitely need armor yellows in the jungle and starting dblade is horrible. Can you qualify this post with some kind of rating? I'm only plat 5 but I don't even think this would work in gold, you would get destroyed by any kind of counterjungle and you wouldn't be able to gank because they can just turn and kill you with no armor/MR from runes.
Anyway I've been playing more Shaco lately and what's been working really well for me is machete + 5 pots into madreds/mobo then either finish lantern or go straight to shiv/hydra. I've been liking finishing lantern more, a little lifesteal before you get hydra is nice because tiamat is the bigger item and you want to build that component first, leaving you without lifesteal for a long time, and the wards are really nice because you're primarily going to be splitpushing and controlling dragon. Shiv is really strong and I personally feel like Hydra is better than BotRK when you have such good crit. After lantern/mobo/shiv/hydra you want situational defensive items like Randuin's/Wits/Sunfire/Banshee's/Warmogs/IBG/FH/GA. IBG is kinda overkill on the proc and FH is usually just strictly better but there are times when your only goal will be to be invisible burst CC on their ADC.
21/9/0 Smite/Ignite
I've been debating whether or not MS quints are worth it and I'm pretty sure they are, still running my noc page with combination arp/as quints and reds, armor yellows and mr/lv blues. I'm gonna switch over to simple MS/AD/Armor/Scaling MR.
Sometimes I actually just stay on the machete and don't upgrade that to madreds at all. I'll actually sell machete to back earlier and grab Tiamat faster if I can. Hydra + Mobo Boots are the first two items I always grab, followed by usually Shiv. At that point, after shiv, it depends on how fed I am or how fed certain members on the enemy team are. If the enemy team is super fed I usually grab a giants belt for some extra health, then try to go into a last whisper. Hydra + Shiv + LW means you start to be able to do tons of damage to anybody.
I use to always grab sunfire with the giants belt because the armor was nice and the extra pushing is nice as well, although the past couple games I've played with Shaco I actually grabbed Warmogs just because all that extra health + hp regen is really noticeable.
Pretty sure I run standard ADC runes when I jungle with him. (AD Reds & Quints, armor yellows, mr blues) just because I like having the higher early game damage especially combied with your guaranteed crit when you Q in for ganks. Been a long time since I've played him with MS quints though, so can't really comment on them.
When you're split pushing with shaco, how do you deal with really good 1v1 champions? Sometimes I run against people I just can't figure out how to kill even with ulti up and BotRK and Hydra. Champions like tryndamere for example are very hard for me, as well as super moblile high burst champions (kennen comes to mind).
You don't need armour yellows at all. Your box will tank a lot for you, and madred's gives you armour anyways. You don't need to be able to 1v1 everyone when you split push; if you have mobility boots then once you see them in the lane, you can just go push somewhere else instead since you're faster and more mobile than most in the game.
On July 13 2013 02:31 BallOOnz wrote: The way im currently building shaco (work in progress as i buy my last few runes) is a straight up attk speed asassain. Currently with masteries and runes im sitting at about 30%+ at lvl 1, with about 9 ad. Yes i am not running armor or mres runes. Pure offense is the way to with shaco. First item might be a dorans blade or the machette/5 pot depending on the enemy jungle and if i think i can duel them early and win. Junglers that i start dorans blade against are Lee Sin, Nautilus, and nocturne so far. Against a nunu u need a machette. I may or may not upgrade my machette depending on how the game going and if there is a Nunu. Core items are madreds->zerker greaves->hydra->shiv->ghostblade for the best split push. usually i go with aclarity on boots but homeguards are taken as needed. I also try to keep a mana pot or two in my inventory as well, until lategame, as shaco's mana costs are pretty high and sometimes i have to pop a mana pot for a gank or escape. I really hope they fix that...
This sounds really bad, you definitely need armor yellows in the jungle and starting dblade is horrible. Can you qualify this post with some kind of rating? I'm only plat 5 but I don't even think this would work in gold, you would get destroyed by any kind of counterjungle and you wouldn't be able to gank because they can just turn and kill you with no armor/MR from runes.
Anyway I've been playing more Shaco lately and what's been working really well for me is machete + 5 pots into madreds/mobo then either finish lantern or go straight to shiv/hydra. I've been liking finishing lantern more, a little lifesteal before you get hydra is nice because tiamat is the bigger item and you want to build that component first, leaving you without lifesteal for a long time, and the wards are really nice because you're primarily going to be splitpushing and controlling dragon. Shiv is really strong and I personally feel like Hydra is better than BotRK when you have such good crit. After lantern/mobo/shiv/hydra you want situational defensive items like Randuin's/Wits/Sunfire/Banshee's/Warmogs/IBG/FH/GA. IBG is kinda overkill on the proc and FH is usually just strictly better but there are times when your only goal will be to be invisible burst CC on their ADC.
21/9/0 Smite/Ignite
I've been debating whether or not MS quints are worth it and I'm pretty sure they are, still running my noc page with combination arp/as quints and reds, armor yellows and mr/lv blues. I'm gonna switch over to simple MS/AD/Armor/Scaling MR.
Most high lvl koreans go dorans start full as/ms or red ad/as/ms.
Qdolla (don't know actual name) diamond 1 na shaco main goes ad red/as/ms 21-9. His normal build is machete 5> as boots and madred on 1st back> botrk> shiv> hydra or tank item.
Its hard to find vods of the koreans. There was one insec game where he was vsing a shaco. Both started dorans and shaco killed him at blue. They do the lvl 3 cheese. Have your bot lane kill buff with 4 boxes and top help you at other buff. Lvl 3 @ 2ish mins and invade the other buff or gank a lvl 1 lane.
On July 13 2013 02:31 BallOOnz wrote: The way im currently building shaco (work in progress as i buy my last few runes) is a straight up attk speed asassain. Currently with masteries and runes im sitting at about 30%+ at lvl 1, with about 9 ad. Yes i am not running armor or mres runes. Pure offense is the way to with shaco. First item might be a dorans blade or the machette/5 pot depending on the enemy jungle and if i think i can duel them early and win. Junglers that i start dorans blade against are Lee Sin, Nautilus, and nocturne so far. Against a nunu u need a machette. I may or may not upgrade my machette depending on how the game going and if there is a Nunu. Core items are madreds->zerker greaves->hydra->shiv->ghostblade for the best split push. usually i go with aclarity on boots but homeguards are taken as needed. I also try to keep a mana pot or two in my inventory as well, until lategame, as shaco's mana costs are pretty high and sometimes i have to pop a mana pot for a gank or escape. I really hope they fix that...
This sounds really bad, you definitely need armor yellows in the jungle and starting dblade is horrible. Can you qualify this post with some kind of rating? I'm only plat 5 but I don't even think this would work in gold, you would get destroyed by any kind of counterjungle and you wouldn't be able to gank because they can just turn and kill you with no armor/MR from runes.
Anyway I've been playing more Shaco lately and what's been working really well for me is machete + 5 pots into madreds/mobo then either finish lantern or go straight to shiv/hydra. I've been liking finishing lantern more, a little lifesteal before you get hydra is nice because tiamat is the bigger item and you want to build that component first, leaving you without lifesteal for a long time, and the wards are really nice because you're primarily going to be splitpushing and controlling dragon. Shiv is really strong and I personally feel like Hydra is better than BotRK when you have such good crit. After lantern/mobo/shiv/hydra you want situational defensive items like Randuin's/Wits/Sunfire/Banshee's/Warmogs/IBG/FH/GA. IBG is kinda overkill on the proc and FH is usually just strictly better but there are times when your only goal will be to be invisible burst CC on their ADC.
21/9/0 Smite/Ignite
I've been debating whether or not MS quints are worth it and I'm pretty sure they are, still running my noc page with combination arp/as quints and reds, armor yellows and mr/lv blues. I'm gonna switch over to simple MS/AD/Armor/Scaling MR.
To be fair im bronze 3 as of this writing. I started a few months ago and after getting 5 afk's in a row with my placement games im a little sour with ranked right now. I wish the ladder was more like sc2 but anyways this isn't about that. I will start by saying that i run full attack speed on shaco because he is squishy as hell already, i play him like a full on assassain. You dont really need the armor for jungle as your box tanks most of the damage. The attk speed runes/masteries also help u clear faster. Early game that extra attack speed procs your slow so fast that people HAVE to flash to get away. Also i never really get counter jungled on shaco as I usually get the kill on them at their red and then i take ALL of their camps. Shaco can clear so fast if you know what you are doing. i'll add more later, just woke up and I cant get my thoughts straight.
I never really felt like attackspeed was the strength of shaco. When it was season two I used to run Att speed red, armor yellow, magic resist blues and MS quints. Razor, boots of mobility, latern into sheen, IE if you wanted the scary burst multiplier on squishy carries. This was back when AP mid was the norm though.
shaco is my favorite jungler, but i just started watching pro LoL consistently (replacing my sc2 watching time, can only watch one :/) and i dont see him being picked. ever. why?
He's a pretty bad teamfighter and there are better assassination-enablers in the jungle. If you want stealth, there's no reason to pick Shaco over Eve, who can do a lot of the same things (pinkward tax, scary early pressure) while also being able to teamfight better and still assassinate well. If you want high mobility and assassination / pickoff power, there's no reason to pick him over Lee or Vi.
On September 14 2013 02:58 nath wrote: shaco is my favorite jungler, but i just started watching pro LoL consistently (replacing my sc2 watching time, can only watch one :/) and i dont see him being picked. ever. why?
If shaco was competitive viable, soloq would be forever ruined. His strengths are much less valuable to pros and much easier to counter as a team.
On September 14 2013 03:56 sylverfyre wrote: He's a pretty bad teamfighter and there are better assassination-enablers in the jungle. If you want stealth, there's no reason to pick Shaco over Eve, who can do a lot of the same things (pinkward tax, scary early pressure) while also being able to teamfight better and still assassinate well. If you want high mobility and assassination / pickoff power, there's no reason to pick him over Lee or Vi.
Aside from splitpushing, Shaco probbaly the best split pushing Jungler.
Only thing is doesn't';t make sense to have Jungle splitpush because there are better opption for that in the top in mid lane who are more effective at the role late game.
Not to say that Shaco isn't damn good at dueling, running away, killing towers, backdooring, or generally being annoying, just as a jungler he'd be behind in gold compared to a Zed/Shen/Nidalee/TF/Fizz that are splitpushing so would not be able to tduel them.
Shaco also doesn't put out nearly as much map pressure in high level games because people dont derp push against Shaco.
That and he just oldschool and how classes. There is no reason to pick Shaco over Eve or Zac at a high level.
I like to pick shaco when we have a tanky top laner that will group up in mid-game and my team can roam as 4. This allows you to pick up some of that extra farm by split pushing that lane. Shaco is a very very very strong split pusher and duelist, especially once he gets a couple items he's basically able to 1v1 just about anyone. (not really trynd, jax or zed). Hydra as first item no matter what, then usually shiv into either tanky item or lw.
With Hydra + Shiv you clear waves in about 1 second and you push towers down like mad because you have your damage, your clones damage and JitB damage.
If you do ever manage to get your Hydra, Shiv, LW & Tanky item, your team fight at that point is actually pretty damn good. You basically have to play like Eve does, where you sit to the side and try your best to flank behind them. If you can Q onto their AP or ADC you can chunk them hard because Q crit dmg, shiv proc, hydra proc all instantly. To be fair though, the games where I do get that fed I usually still just split push 24/7 anyway because nobody on the enemy team could 1v1 me.
Clearing the jungle is so brutal for Shaco now. Takes forever, and monsters quickly start instantly killing your boxes so you can't even have them tank for you anymore. Anybody played much Shaco this pre-season?
Yeah, I use to play Shaco all the time but man, not getting level 3 after double buff is brutal for him. I actually need to test some stuff on him though because I'm thinking maybe you could put 3 or 4 boxes at wraith camp, instantly smite red when it pops and kill it with some help, then rush other buff and maybe you'll get 3 because boxes should kill big wraith + a little one. Although I still think Shaco is too fast that the early smite on Red means it probably won't be up for Blue, so maybe with a good leash from Bot lane you just save smite for your blue.
It is really nice you can do dorans + 1 pot now though. Although with the changes I'm almost wondering if long sword 2pot would be stronger since it'll give you that earlier tiamat.
I would Red > Blue > Enemy Red in 95% of my games, unfortunately since you don't get 3 after double buff it makes it a whole hell of a lot scarier lol, you can still do that but then you're still level 2 so you don't have your E. Although catching the enemy jungler at red is still very scary since Box + Q + Ignite + You have double buff is still very strong.
edit: After some testing.....
Starts dorans + 1pot. I run 21/9/0. ad reds, armor yellows, atks blues, ms quints.
0.55 - Put 1 box by red. ~1:10 - There's a blue mushroom next to the stone circle by wraith camp, put box on it. ~1:25 - Place 2nd box by wraith camp. ~1:40 - place 3rd box by wraith camp. ~1:55 - red spawns, place 2nd box down, smite immediately.
Rush your blue afterwards. What this does is the 3 boxes at Wraiths but the 3 boxes at wraiths will kill all 3 of the small ones. All 3 of the small ones + both buff camps = level 3. (Exactly enough xp) If you smite your red asap it will be up by the time you get to blue. With a leash at red from your bot lane you can probably save your smite if you want but you can still do everything solo. With both buffs down and level 3 you still have about ~80% hp which is more than enough.
I would probably always start with a dorans + 1pot just because the health, life steal & dmg from dorans is just really nice early game especially if you're planning on counter jungling. I always rush Hydra just because of how strong of an item it is for him. People always underestimate how fast a shaco with hydra can actually push. It's very rare for me to actually be with my team and try to 5v5. If anything I'll come to clean up a fight, but usually I'd rather just keep split pushing because Shaco + Boxes + Clone can take towers down so fast and as I just said, with Hydra you push waves verrrrrrry fast.
My build path is usually Dorans + 1pot > pickaxe > boots1 > tiamat > hydra > mobos > shiv > lw > defensive item. Once you get LW though you can usually 1v1 most people as long as you get a good box down and they take the full fear.
Take Smite & Ignite.
R > E > W > Q for skills. (Start W Q E) (You can start W E Q but I like level 2 Q so I can jump wall by blue to get to it faster)
I run 21/9/0 masteries (might try some 21/0/9 soon to see how I like that)
AD Reds, Armor Yellows, Atks Blues, MS Quints (Full AD quints or even 1LS/2AD could be good as well)
Made up a picture to explain where I prefer to place boxes and usually the time I place them at. (With everything I run my boxes are on a 15.2second CD at level 1)
flexgd's video is pretty recent and the guy in the video can kill blue and a little lizard and all of red for level 3. He uses blue pot and gets a lot of AP runes though. He just has his laners do the final lizard which takes like 2 hits so no cs is lost.
Other than the loss of 250 gold in the temporary blue pot, what does doing wraiths with jitb do? Is it because you don't reach level 3 anymore from doing just blue and red and so you start red and wraiths?
On December 05 2013 07:39 obesechicken13 wrote: flexgd's video is pretty recent and the guy in the video can kill blue and a little lizard and all of red for level 3. He uses blue pot and gets a lot of AP runes though. He just has his laners do the final lizard which takes like 2 hits so no cs is lost.
Other than the loss of 250 gold in the temporary blue pot, what does doing wraiths with jitb do? Is it because you don't reach level 3 anymore from doing just blue and red and so you start red and wraiths?
I don't think this is that big of an advantage anymore if you have to start blue pot to do it because the kill bonus before 5 mins (was it 5?) is reduced and you'll just set both of you behind gold-wise. Shaco does do well when he's ahead on levels but I think it's still safer to do standard dblade or machete openings.
The new jungle is pretty easy to get through with shaco now. Even when disrupted. So I think one of his big weaknesses has been removed.
But how to build him now. I am at a loss. I try the standard first jungle item and after that I have no idea. Tri force is too expensive. Ghostblade is too gimmicky I feel.
Anyone have any advice or experience.
I was diamond last season, currently upper plat as I just started playing again after a long break.
On June 24 2014 19:44 Ota Solgryn wrote: The new jungle is pretty easy to get through with shaco now. Even when disrupted. So I think one of his big weaknesses has been removed.
But how to build him now. I am at a loss. I try the standard first jungle item and after that I have no idea. Tri force is too expensive. Ghostblade is too gimmicky I feel.
Anyone have any advice or experience.
I was diamond last season, currently upper plat as I just started playing again after a long break.
I'm a lowbie but from what I have read, Static Shiv seems to be the second or third item some people go for, others shoot for Hydra. If I may ask, what makes you feel Ghostblade is too gimmicky? It seems good with the armor pen, speed boost and dmg. Those seem like good things to have on Shaco.
On June 24 2014 19:44 Ota Solgryn wrote: The new jungle is pretty easy to get through with shaco now. Even when disrupted. So I think one of his big weaknesses has been removed.
But how to build him now. I am at a loss. I try the standard first jungle item and after that I have no idea. Tri force is too expensive. Ghostblade is too gimmicky I feel.
Anyone have any advice or experience.
I was diamond last season, currently upper plat as I just started playing again after a long break.
I'm a lowbie but from what I have read, Static Shiv seems to be the second or third item some people go for, others shoot for Hydra. If I may ask, what makes you feel Ghostblade is too gimmicky? It seems good with the armor pen, speed boost and dmg. Those seem like good things to have on Shaco.
It's becuase shaco is so squishy and have no survivablity skills. So if he is ahead and against bad players ghostblade wrecks. But if you are against decent players you need something that mixes survivability and dmg, imo.
I still just rush tiatmat/hydra into shiv & try to split push 24/7.
Lot of the time I'll go machete+5, just to help with jungle a bit plus the 5 pots allows me to sit in the enemy jungle, early game, a lot longer. Usually rush Pickaxe + Boots if possible, then into tiamat. Sell Machete to get your tiamat faster imo. After Tiamat, get Mobos & Vamp. Then either finish Hydra or start building towards Shiv, once you finish Shiv, finish Hydra if you haven't yet.
Usually I'll grab LW as my 3rd item and then grab a tanky item. With Tiamat/Shiv/LW, you can pretty much 1v1 anyone besides some super fed champs or some really strong 1v1 duelists (jax, ren, trynd, etc etc) although even then as long as you ult and kite away you can usually come out ahead.
With Mobos, Deceive, Hydra & Shiv, you push lanes soooooooo fast, remember you can ult + box on towers/inhibs to kill them even faster. Not sure if anybody can kill towers faster than shaco. I guess Master Yi probably.
On June 24 2014 19:44 Ota Solgryn wrote: The new jungle is pretty easy to get through with shaco now. Even when disrupted. So I think one of his big weaknesses has been removed.
But how to build him now. I am at a loss. I try the standard first jungle item and after that I have no idea. Tri force is too expensive. Ghostblade is too gimmicky I feel.
Anyone have any advice or experience.
I was diamond last season, currently upper plat as I just started playing again after a long break.
I'm a lowbie but from what I have read, Static Shiv seems to be the second or third item some people go for, others shoot for Hydra. If I may ask, what makes you feel Ghostblade is too gimmicky? It seems good with the armor pen, speed boost and dmg. Those seem like good things to have on Shaco.
It's becuase shaco is so squishy and have no survivablity skills. So if he is ahead and against bad players ghostblade wrecks. But if you are against decent players you need something that mixes survivability and dmg, imo.
I see what you mean. He is a glass cannon. I just wished they upped his dmg just a little bit, especially since they nerfed his deceive so much.
On June 24 2014 19:44 Ota Solgryn wrote: The new jungle is pretty easy to get through with shaco now. Even when disrupted. So I think one of his big weaknesses has been removed.
But how to build him now. I am at a loss. I try the standard first jungle item and after that I have no idea. Tri force is too expensive. Ghostblade is too gimmicky I feel.
Anyone have any advice or experience.
I was diamond last season, currently upper plat as I just started playing again after a long break.
I'm a lowbie but from what I have read, Static Shiv seems to be the second or third item some people go for, others shoot for Hydra. If I may ask, what makes you feel Ghostblade is too gimmicky? It seems good with the armor pen, speed boost and dmg. Those seem like good things to have on Shaco.
It's becuase shaco is so squishy and have no survivablity skills. So if he is ahead and against bad players ghostblade wrecks. But if you are against decent players you need something that mixes survivability and dmg, imo.
I see what you mean. He is a glass cannon. I just wished they upped his dmg just a little bit, especially since they nerfed his deceive so much.
No he is not even a glass cannon. Shaco does not have amazing burst or sustained damage. All of his skill set sets around "outplay", meaning coming from weird places/angles, dodging skillshots with decieve and ulti, and using that twoshiv, and boxes to surprice people. So as items he needs something to help with this while giving making him able to survive in a stall out.
For instance, boots of mobolity is amazing on shaco, due to them helping him to be in weird places and coming out when you dont expect it.
On June 25 2014 01:36 SidianTheBard wrote: I still just rush tiatmat/hydra into shiv & try to split push 24/7.
Lot of the time I'll go machete+5, just to help with jungle a bit plus the 5 pots allows me to sit in the enemy jungle, early game, a lot longer. Usually rush Pickaxe + Boots if possible, then into tiamat. Sell Machete to get your tiamat faster imo. After Tiamat, get Mobos & Vamp. Then either finish Hydra or start building towards Shiv, once you finish Shiv, finish Hydra if you haven't yet.
Usually I'll grab LW as my 3rd item and then grab a tanky item. With Tiamat/Shiv/LW, you can pretty much 1v1 anyone besides some super fed champs or some really strong 1v1 duelists (jax, ren, trynd, etc etc) although even then as long as you ult and kite away you can usually come out ahead.
With Mobos, Deceive, Hydra & Shiv, you push lanes soooooooo fast, remember you can ult + box on towers/inhibs to kill them even faster. Not sure if anybody can kill towers faster than shaco. I guess Master Yi probably.
Hmm, I can see the tiamat working a bit. Ill try this a couple of games.
On June 24 2014 19:44 Ota Solgryn wrote: The new jungle is pretty easy to get through with shaco now. Even when disrupted. So I think one of his big weaknesses has been removed.
But how to build him now. I am at a loss. I try the standard first jungle item and after that I have no idea. Tri force is too expensive. Ghostblade is too gimmicky I feel.
Anyone have any advice or experience.
I was diamond last season, currently upper plat as I just started playing again after a long break.
I'm a lowbie but from what I have read, Static Shiv seems to be the second or third item some people go for, others shoot for Hydra. If I may ask, what makes you feel Ghostblade is too gimmicky? It seems good with the armor pen, speed boost and dmg. Those seem like good things to have on Shaco.
And yeah, Static shiv also probably good. Especially with move speed increase.
So I scipped going a "jungler" item and it seems to really work to get Static Shiv, tiamat and mobo faster. Actually that might have been my main issue as the jungler items scale terribly with Shacos skillset.
Yeah, TIamat should be core in everyone's Shaco build if it isn't already. It, and to a lesser extent Shiv, are the reasons why "Shaco falls off lategame" is a fallacy of the past.
I definitely prefer BotRK over Hydra on Shaco if given a choice, the CC is really big especially because you'll be playing on the edge a lot and escaping with extra movespeed makes it a lot easier to deceive out of tougher spots.
Is it actually worth it to go for elder lizard? I always thought a spirit stone is enough. Although I haven't started playing Shack yet I think it would be better if he just went spirit stone and then into the tiamat/Bork. Is finishing elder lizard worth it? I mean you will prolly be splitpush in the lane more than actually farm the jungle at some point and before that you are probably ganking lanes quite a bit. Or do you guys feel like the conservation is worth it?
Also I always thought tiamat>bork due to the split pushing power? But I guess in some games you will probably not be able to split push a lot and in that case bork>tiamat? Sorry just some questions I have cause I have been thinking about picking him up once again for some fun
cdr, ad, and conservation (plus mana sustain from spirit stone) are all really good on shaco, and the burn adds a good amount of damage to your ult, especially if you have tiamat as well
Anyone else finding massive success with Shaco in the new jungle? I'm playing mostly glass cannon/split push style but there is some AD bruiser shaco builds out there that have some success. It so easy to counter jungle with the way the new jungle is set up as well.
Yeah, I think he's pretty good. He's in the secretly strong category. When I've been playing him I usually do 3 camps and gank a lane. Get chilling smite and tiamat before finishing the jungle item. Then I usually just get as tanky as I can after jungle item + Hydra: FH, Warmogs, etc. I usually just need those two items to 100-0 or incapacitate a carry in a team fight. It's worth noting that this is probably the optimal way to clear the jungle right now. I see a lot of Shacos starting with boxing out one camp to start, which makes me cringe.
I have been starting red on either side and then going and either smiting the blue and trying to kill the enemy jungler if he started gromp. Or I just wander over there and steal his blue and get a nice 3 buff start. Either is fine. Then it's tiamats and thene the pathfinder item to quickly clear camps (I switch to stalkers later in the midgame). Items of course depend on team comp and whatnot. If it's heavy AD then i get tabi, if I'm ar ahead i take CDR boots. I always get a Shiv for some spilitpush action. I don't really build an IE these days either. edit: Ah good video, I have never seen this start before in the new jungle. Could be more useful then my curent start against some strong early game junglers.
I've come across several Shaco tops recently. They take tele/ignite and vary between ap and ad. The ad was far more scary, building hydra, yommus, lw, ie. They went even in lane generally but were almost impossible to gank, had kill pressure with ignite and with lane farm and tele they were great split pushers and great at cleaning up half finished team fights. I didn't lane against any of them but they all dominated late in the game.
Is this a thing now or have I just been unlucky? Has some streamer popularized it and if so are they due to burn in the most fiery depths of hell?