EPTLotV Beta Balance Update - October 23 - Page 2
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
On October 24 2015 12:08 ZAiNs wrote: What is the new effective range of the Liberator? Or, what is the radius of its ability? 5(+4) and then the edge of the circle reaching up to X range further (not sure of the radius number, he said 5^. So further than siege tank when upgraded if that's correct (10 and 14 for the tip of the circle at max range) ----- Moving the upgrade to require a fusion core seems unnecessary. If it's overpowered people will rush a fusion core just like with the medivac healing upgrade; If it's not overpowered, hiding it behind a tech lab and a fusion core is too much. Blizzard is very bad with patch note wording recently; it's likely that it's not what you think - perhaps an upgrade on the fusion core itself, which would allow you to use them without the weird tech lab to reactor dance. That wasn't done with medivacs (their starting energy upgrade wasn't worth losing the reactor) and it can't be done with units like the Banshee because they can't be reactored, however liberators are in the fairly unique position of being a reactor powerhouse unit that needed a tech lab upgrade for half of its function. ------ The delay before a Siege Tank in Siege Mode firing when being dropped by a Medivac has been increased from 0.53 to 1.43 seconds. I quite like this, if neccesary they can even go further and make it 2-5 seconds to preserve the ability to move tanks without the awkward unsiege-wait-pickup-drop-siege dance that would occur if they removed the ability altogether. That's an extension of the tank and medivac abilities, rather than an excuse to keep the tank weak and transform it into a bouncy fast long range harass unit. | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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FireCake
151 Posts
We are going to see even more liberator use. Spores are still not enough to defend liberator harass so the zerg has to go fast roaches everytime in order to be able to make ravagers in time. At least zergs player can now defend without doing a retarded 2 bases corruptor. I didn't see people mention it but it is now the end of 2 base nydus play in ZvT. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
As for lurker den nerfs, I don't think theyre nerfing the right thing, but I'm fine with it. They're hard to rush and make use of right away and seem to only be good when the game progresses. I still think they should have 165 hp, burrow slower and move slower off-creep only. This makes them harder to use aggressively, while keeping its zone-controlling abilities intact. This means that a lurker will be killed by 2 stalker shots after a disruptor shot, which is good. Carrier is going to be the new DPS of the protoss army in the end game, and nerfing it's hp makes it always require constant support. I think my suggestions in my personal change list are good, but alas I'm just a rookie and I might be an idiot. Its far too late for major changes either. | ||
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Shinba
25 Posts
On October 24 2015 13:37 FireCake wrote: The remove of the upgrade for the defendor mode is really big. We are going to see even more liberator use. Spores are still not enough to defend liberator harass so the zerg has to go fast roaches everytime in order to be able to make ravagers in time. At least zergs player can now defend without doing a retarded 2 bases corruptor. I didn't see people mention it but it is now the end of 2 base nydus play in ZvT. Put spore behind mineral lines, not in mineral lines like you do vs banshee, No need for Ravagers. Ravagers could be used with nydus and queens. It worked before unless they have 3 liberators but if they have that then you miss scouting and you could have all in him with ling/bane While Terran has some IMBA things I still think Protoss is broken as fuck. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10829 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On October 24 2015 13:43 Shinba wrote: Put spore behind mineral lines, not in mineral lines like you do vs banshee, No need for Ravagers. Ravagers could be used with nydus and queens. It worked before unless they have 3 liberators but if they have that then you miss scouting and you could have all in him with ling/bane While Terran has some IMBA things I still think Protoss is broken as fuck. 1. You're talking to Firecake. 2. Protoss is doing the worst right now... | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 24 2015 13:43 Shinba wrote: Put spore behind mineral lines, not in mineral lines like you do vs banshee, No need for Ravagers. One spore behind mineral line is not enough, zerg needs at least 3 spores behind every mineral line because the liberator needs to be in range of only one mineral to harass the whole mineral line. On October 24 2015 13:43 Shinba wrote: Ravagers could be used with nydus and queens. It worked before unless they have 3 liberators but if they have that then you miss scouting and you could have all in him with ling/bane this comes way too late. The terran player may even have enough firepower to kill the nydus before it gets heal You should have a look of what is a 2 base nydus build because it seems that you have no idea of the timings of the build. It's not possible to go for a 2 base nydus and then finally go for a ling/bane all in because a lucky scout shows that the terran is going liberator. Also, ling/bane all in don't punish liberators build. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
The terran player may even have enough firepower to kill the nydus before it gets heal He may, but neither of you can count on it 100% because you have only have a couple of game ticks to kill the nydus if the zerg is as fast as possible. It's not random (at all) but it's highly volatile. Take a look at this post from Snute - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/496682-nydus-worm-shouldnt-stay-like-that?page=8#155 - for an example of high level players abusing it in a real game (not neccesarily targetted at anyone in particular, just to have it in this thread) The zerg was slower than neccesary. A fraction of a second but if it were to become an abusive possible thing in high level play after the game was out for a while, i'm sure people would practice it down to the millisecond i am not very happy with how it was last patch - if it becomes a thing and blizzard wants zerg to have those options, a nydus with more health seems more fair and consistent than one that may or may not survive or get killed in 2 hits and decide a game if it gets through or not | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
I find 2 base nydus all in is kind of build ordery. If terran opens with 4+ hellions then they lose. If not they have a chance. It's pretty dumb. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 24 2015 15:24 Cyro wrote: He may, but neither of you can count on it 100% because you have only have a couple of game ticks to kill the nydus if the zerg is as fast as possible. It's not random (at all) but it's highly volatile. It is insanely random. The RNG is pretty crazy in this game (for an "esport" game) and when you want to do precise micro it starts to matter a lot. The attack speed of the units, casting time, how units walks and move on each other... all these things are random. We could also add the lags since we still have very bad servers... The replay of Snute is outdated. On October 24 2015 15:42 BEARDiaguz wrote: Liberators kiiiiiiiind of help out vs nydus play. they won't kill the worm and they will fall to the queens if they target it after transfusing, but they do help. I find 2 base nydus all in is kind of build ordery. If terran opens with 4+ hellions then they lose. If not they have a chance. It's pretty dumb. Terrans don't lose because they make 4+ hellions, they lose because they are very greedy somewhere else, or don't control their units very well. You can simply surround the nydus and queen with vcs while the liberators kill everything. Problem solved, and almost no micro is required. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
The attack speed of the units, casting time, how units walks and move on each other... all these things are random. We could also add the lags since we still have very bad servers... It's not random but it behaves in a very calculated way that is hard to control or predict sometimes. Even with 20 ping to the server, you'll have about a 0.12 to 0.2 second delay on commands because of how the engine works; the input delay is also variable by a notable amount of time depending on sheer luck for when you clicked vs when the next game simulation tick happens The replay of Snute is outdated In what way? Maybe different units are changed now, liberator is different - but when a Nydus comes up, the situation will be very similar AFAIK. The game is only a week and a half old. Sure he could probably put a liberator or two now at like 12 range from the worm and oneshot it as it spawns, but Liberators do fairly obscene opening volley damage in that one situation - it doesn't excuse the worm in other situations | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
On October 24 2015 11:11 HomeWorld wrote: Forgot to mention, still no news about Parasitic bomb/8 armor ultralisk/invincible nydus ... Yea still waiting for this....... | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
On October 24 2015 15:36 Noonius wrote: on creep siege drops are rather useless now. it takes 2.6 times longer to fire the first shot. This destroys the whole point of tank drops agree with that | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On October 24 2015 15:36 Noonius wrote: on creep siege drops are rather useless now. it takes 2.6 times longer to fire the first shot. This destroys the whole point of tank drops i think being unable to use tank drops offensively is a good change. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
on creep siege drops are rather useless now. it takes 2.6 times longer to fire the first shot. This destroys the whole point of tank drops As long as you think of the purpose as sieged-tank repositioning, it's completely fine and almost all of that QOL and minor power upgrade is still there. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 24 2015 16:17 Cyro wrote: It's not random but it behaves in a very calculated way that is hard to control or predict sometimes. Even with 20 ping to the server, you'll have about a 0.12 to 0.2 second delay on commands because of how the engine works; the input delay is also variable by a notable amount of time depending on sheer luck for when you clicked vs when the next game simulation tick happens It is random since the same inputs don't produce the same outputs. (or there is something hidden i am missing ?) If you don't believe me try it yourself, it takes few minutes on unit test map to see it. On October 24 2015 16:17 Cyro wrote: In what way? Maybe different units are changed now, liberator is different - but when a Nydus comes up, the situation will be very similar AFAIK. The game is only a week and a half old. Sure he could probably put a liberator or two now at like 12 range from the worm and oneshot it as it spawns, but Liberators do fairly obscene opening volley damage in that one situation - it doesn't excuse the worm in other situations Liberators, you said it yourself, this unit destroy 2 base nydus. Before the patch, a 2 base nydus hits before the upgrade of the liberators and thus punish a 3CC liberator build. Now, liberators kills this opening. What else the terran can do ? Tank opening ? very good against nydus play Hellbats push ? very good against nydus play 3 rax before factory ? very good against nydus play. Nydus is still good against medivac push because they hit very late but terrans players prefer to play the others openings anyway. Nydus should be good against banshee opening too because the cloack upgrade should be a little bit late to defend the nydus but nobody plays banshee... edit : woops 3 messages in a row ^^ is there a way to remove them ? | ||
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