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On October 24 2015 20:06 Gradient wrote:Show nested quote +
The delay before a Siege Tank in Siege Mode firing when being dropped by a Medivac has been increased from 0.53 to 1.43 seconds.
I know they don't want to hear this, but please can't they just not remove the drop thing and make the tank good again? Playing bio/tank is so fun in TvZ and right now it feels like we can't buff the tank because of drops but at the same time they keep on nerfing drops so they are useless anyway.
TvT is a joke right now. Doom drops were already stupid. How does 6 sieged tanks instantly in your base sound? And the matchup is now 100% about air control. Who ever wins that wins the game cause your tanks will never tank damage. You could be behind 100 supply and still be fine if you have enough vikings and a couple siege tanks with medivacs
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I like how adepts were nerfed by 10 hp with compensation of stim-like upgrade and now liberators just... Into the ground.
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IMHO the Liberator Change is very awkward.
In order to get the former 9 range (initial 4 + 5 from advanced ballistics upgrade) you need a
1) fusion core, which enables the
2) advanced balistics upgrade to be researched at a
3) techlab attached to a startport.
While the change is not bad, it still (and this is what I hoped for) does not remove the game-flow-ruining awkwardness of having to research an upgrade for a reactor-producable-unit at a techlab.
Why not make the balistics upgrade researchable at the fusion core directly (just like the yamato cannon)?!?
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So with the adept buff the warpprism adept allin with up to 8 gates is unstoppable again in TvP? Proxy robo, you cannot deny the unload and warpin and once the adepts are in your base they keep running around, not to meantion I cant even have enough units out to fight them. For example cc first on orbital shipyard into 3 rax standard, simply impossible. Anyone has an idea or is it just broken again? (Talking about the 2 base version).
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On October 25 2015 03:04 junghansmega wrote:
IMHO the Liberator Change is very awkward.
In order to get the former 9 range (initial 4 + 5 from advanced ballistics upgrade) you need a
1) fusion core, which enables the
2) advanced balistics upgrade to be researched at a
3) techlab attached to a startport.
While the change is not bad, it still (and this is what I hoped for) does not remove the game-flow-ruining awkwardness of having to research an upgrade for a reactor-producable-unit at a techlab.
Why not make the balistics upgrade researchable at the fusion core directly (just like the yamato cannon)?!?
Fully agree with this. I find tech lab upgrades that require additional tech are somewhat akward to begin with. But when they are on the starport (which you usually only have one of) and it's for a reactored unit they always become very inaccessible.
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On October 25 2015 03:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 03:04 junghansmega wrote:
IMHO the Liberator Change is very awkward.
In order to get the former 9 range (initial 4 + 5 from advanced ballistics upgrade) you need a
1) fusion core, which enables the
2) advanced balistics upgrade to be researched at a
3) techlab attached to a startport.
While the change is not bad, it still (and this is what I hoped for) does not remove the game-flow-ruining awkwardness of having to research an upgrade for a reactor-producable-unit at a techlab.
Why not make the balistics upgrade researchable at the fusion core directly (just like the yamato cannon)?!? Fully agree with this. I find tech lab upgrades that require additional tech are somewhat akward to begin with. But when they are on the starport (which you usually only have one of) and it's for a reactored unit they always become very inaccessible.
This guys get is, it can be reactored, they have to make it inaccessible somehow, I feel like now that they can't auto target mineral lines (ridiculous) the unit is in a much better place, previously it did the Vikings/Banshees/Siege Tanks job all in one.
Either the upgrade or make it a straight up tech lab unit.
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United States2141 Posts
On October 25 2015 02:52 Almand wrote:
I like how adepts were nerfed by 10 hp with compensation of stim-like upgrade and now liberators just... Into the ground.
adepts were nerfed by 30 hp, and the 50 hp upgrade was also removed. the 10 hp was a second nerf.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On October 25 2015 03:04 junghansmega wrote:
IMHO the Liberator Change is very awkward.
In order to get the former 9 range (initial 4 + 5 from advanced ballistics upgrade) you need a
1) fusion core, which enables the
2) advanced balistics upgrade to be researched at a
3) techlab attached to a startport.
While the change is not bad, it still (and this is what I hoped for) does not remove the game-flow-ruining awkwardness of having to research an upgrade for a reactor-producable-unit at a techlab.
Why not make the balistics upgrade researchable at the fusion core directly (just like the yamato cannon)?!?
Didn't they do that? I have not played yet, but i assumed they would do something like that. Either unlocked on the condition of having a fusion core or researched from it
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Great that liberators got some nerf because they are one of the trio/quad of OP air units...but uh what? Only liberator is nerfed?
Brood+parasitic bomb is absolutely disgusting because once you "get there" you autowin the game. Well vs Terran at least.
And mass carrier is also a freewin once you "get there" with high templars...these things should not be like this. -50hp on carriers is a good start...but this unit is so fundamentally broken it's ridiculous. You almost get rewarded with a freewin just from accumulating 8 carriers and then continually spamming them from stargates with no thought in the world.
I love how i joke around on stream that "any time you say a T unit like liberator is OP along with Z/P units...blizzard only hears "NERF TERRAN NERF TERRAN NOW" ."
And that's basically what they did. They still are ignoring how absurd parasitic bomb is.
I've played plenty of off-race ZvT games where i just turtle with roach/hydra/lurker into brood + mass vipers with 10+ parasitic bombs and my Terran opponent has absolutely no way to fight versus this and most of them even ask me in chat, "what do i do vs this" and i tell them "nothing, you just die there's no counter atm lol".
-_-
Also to add another thought because i have been playing a ton of Zerg and have experienced a ton of ZvP lately...even the OP parasitic bomb cannot deal with mass carriers...that in itself says a lot lol. There's no unit Zerg can build to fight carriers once there are 6-8 + carriers + any amount of high templar/tempests. You just basically die no matter how many bases you're on and no matter what happened the first 15 min of the game.
Carriers need to be toned down more imo.
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On October 25 2015 03:04 junghansmega wrote:
Why not make the balistics upgrade researchable at the fusion core directly (just like the yamato cannon)?!?
This is what they should have done. Any unit designed to be reactorable is going to have a rough time getting their upgrade from a tech lab. But then you require a fusion core AND a tech lab? If it's not crazy overpowered, it's going to be severely neglected. You can shove the timing farther down if necessary by playing with its research time or cost, but unlike armories, fusion cores require starports to even start building so your timing is already naturally pushed forward.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Great that liberators got some nerf because they are one of the trio/quad of OP air units...but uh what? Only liberator is nerfed?
Carrier got 50 health nerf. Zerg and especially terrans have great carrier counters at the moment; carriers are not good against terran. If you build 10 carriers (60 supply) then terrans often just respond with 20-30 liberators (40-60 supply) and oneshot all of your interceptors effortlessly.
Even with release interceptor vs zerg, it wasn't freewin but that mechanic was kinda silly and hard to balance. Without it, i'm confident that carrier was fine without the health nerf and likely without the build time nerf too, at the moment (unless you go through, nerf carrier, liberator AA and AG, parasitic bomb all at the same time)
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we are rarely if ever going to see carrier again avilo so you should not worry, it's just not good enough anymore
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On October 24 2015 11:49 HomeWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 11:37 Cyro wrote:On October 24 2015 11:34 HomeWorld wrote:On October 24 2015 11:32 ROOTFayth wrote:On October 24 2015 11:08 HomeWorld wrote:
Man, i'm fine with the liberator change, but, what's the point of decreasing the health of carriers (they still do the same damage and quite fast to even matter) or the increase to adept's shield (as if this Warhound 2.0 unit was struggling against fictive scenarios that only blizzard can conceive) warhound 2.0? the unit is garbage man, wake up LOL That's exactly what i'm saying, the unit (adept) is garbage and ready for recycling. Fayth is commenting on the balance, while you are bypassing that entirely and commenting on the design (which you subjectively do not like, but a lot of other people do like) For sure I fail to understand what you're trying to say (with a good reason, you're not making any sense). Probably this is just another meaningless post to bolster your post count (as usual) User was warned for this post
What he's saying is that comparing the adept to the warhound is asinine because the warhound was OP. Ya dingus.
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On October 25 2015 05:49 ROOTFayth wrote:
we are rarely if ever going to see carrier again avilo so you should not worry, it's just not good enough anymore
he's not happy with a 50 health nerf. Hell, he's prob not happy until that thing is completely useless like BW scout.
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On October 25 2015 05:23 avilo wrote:
Great that liberators got some nerf because they are one of the trio/quad of OP air units...but uh what? Only liberator is nerfed?
Brood+parasitic bomb is absolutely disgusting because once you "get there" you autowin the game. Well vs Terran at least.
And mass carrier is also a freewin once you "get there" with high templars...these things should not be like this. -50hp on carriers is a good start...but this unit is so fundamentally broken it's ridiculous. You almost get rewarded with a freewin just from accumulating 8 carriers and then continually spamming them from stargates with no thought in the world.
I love how i joke around on stream that "any time you say a T unit like liberator is OP along with Z/P units...blizzard only hears "NERF TERRAN NERF TERRAN NOW" ."
Yeah, I'm sorry but I hardly believe that blizzard is taking anything from your stream. Get your head out of your own ass and stop being so biased. YOU are the guy that keeps on bitching about any nerf that hits Terran's ultimate compositions (e.g. recently ravens, mules). Now blizzard introduces a patch that will leave the liberator exactly the same once "you get there". I repeat, EXACTLY THE SAME ONCE YOU GET THERE. Meanwhile the carrier gets an actual nerf. Those 50hp are not added back by some upgrade, neither does the carrier get a buff for it in some form like the liberator free defender mode at 4range in this patch.
And that's basically what they did. They still are ignoring how absurd parasitic bomb is.
This is a point I fully agree with you, but for the most part it hits exactly one playstyle, which happens to be yours (Terran mech), but not even the race as a whole. The parasitic bomb is so far hardly being used against bio and for PvZ we both share the opinion that even with parasitic bomb lategame protoss air is pretty strong. But give it some time, 50hp is a nice nerf to start of with and maybe there can be something figured out around fungal growth killing interceptors and just masses of corruptors to deal with the issue.
Also to add another thought because i have been playing a ton of Zerg and have experienced a ton of ZvP lately...even the OP parasitic bomb cannot deal with mass carriers...that in itself says a lot lol. There's no unit Zerg can build to fight carriers once there are 6-8 + carriers + any amount of high templar/tempests. You just basically die no matter how many bases you're on and no matter what happened the first 15 min of the game.
Carriers need to be toned down more imo.
I've played plenty of off-race ZvT games where i just turtle with roach/hydra/lurker into brood + mass vipers with 10+ parasitic bombs and my Terran opponent has absolutely no way to fight versus this and most of them even ask me in chat, "what do i do vs this" and i tell them "nothing, you just die there's no counter atm lol".
Yeah, and you know, funny story because I watch your stream quite sometimes and the last two times you started to offrace zerg for a few days your MMR dropped from high master to ~diamond with that stupidly inefficient playstyle.
Learn to defend against bio properly first instead of complaining how "dumb drops are" (hint: mobile units help), learn to scout ZvZ instead of wondering how your opponent figured that you would be going for a 2base roach timing (when he sees your superfast roach warren and evo chambers and has an overlord about your untaken 3rd) and maybe take some lessons in ZvP. The way you lose to each and every 2base attack and the way you let those protoss players take 5bases in 10mins and then complain about carriers... yeah, I'm sorry but you just aren't a good zerg player. You are mechanically very strong and that helps a ton with zerg, but you have absolutely no idea about the strategies in at least 2 of the matchups.
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Big J, just dont reply to Avilo. It only causes me stress when I do so. All his points are super biased that he will fervantly downplay any benefits T receives and advocates for any valid strategies other races have available to combat T. It's the typical 'dont nerf my race bro' multiplied by 100 to the point where he just doesn't even care about his reputation as a biased
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I feel like everytime they nerf/fix/change the tankivac, it's a change SOOOO SPECIFIC that its just alittle silly. I understand it's strong...but if you think about it...that's just like saying "colossus attack from unload time from warp prism is 1.5 seconds". Or "Ultralisk attack from unload time from overload 1.5"...like what!? Why should 1 specific combination of units have such a specific rule that only applies to them?
I just don't understand why a nerf has to be so extremely specific to 1 unit. Imagine a new player coming into the game. Common logic would tell them "i can pick up a siege tank in seige mode with a medivac, so i'll unload it so that it will hit this target as I drop it". However, this nerf/balance/rule (whatever you want to call the siege tank delay) IS TAILORED TO THIS PAIR, that an average player might not know about the nerf and think "hmm, that's weird, when i unload my siege tank, why is there a 1.5 second delay before it shoots? Why don't other units get this nerf on unload either?".
A more logical change would be like...if a siege tank gets picked up in siege mode...it would automatically RE-siege as it drops (with full visual animation queue to reduce any confusion). Or if a tank in siege mode gets picked up, it will need to be re-seiged manually on unload. Not this silly "1.5 seconds delay before shooting" dealio. I think it just adds a small layer of inconsistency in the game that everyone has to just understand before using the unit.
Sorry for the ramble, but does anyone feel the same way? Either delay it (by forcing it to have some kind of visual queue like automatic reseiging on unload), or just let it be used as it once was originally.
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On October 25 2015 03:04 junghansmega wrote:
IMHO the Liberator Change is very awkward.
In order to get the former 9 range (initial 4 + 5 from advanced ballistics upgrade) you need a
1) fusion core, which enables the
2) advanced balistics upgrade to be researched at a
3) techlab attached to a startport.
While the change is not bad, it still (and this is what I hoped for) does not remove the game-flow-ruining awkwardness of having to research an upgrade for a reactor-producable-unit at a techlab.
Why not make the balistics upgrade researchable at the fusion core directly (just like the yamato cannon)?!?
Pretty good point.
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On October 25 2015 03:15 Aquila- wrote:
So with the adept buff the warpprism adept allin with up to 8 gates is unstoppable again in TvP? Proxy robo, you cannot deny the unload and warpin and once the adepts are in your base they keep running around, not to meantion I cant even have enough units out to fight them. For example cc first on orbital shipyard into 3 rax standard, simply impossible. Anyone has an idea or is it just broken again? (Talking about the 2 base version).
10 hp does not make a strategy go from unused to unstoppable...with the warp prism warp in nerf and the first adept change you should not have a terrible time holding assuming you react appropriately
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On October 25 2015 07:56 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 03:15 Aquila- wrote:
So with the adept buff the warpprism adept allin with up to 8 gates is unstoppable again in TvP? Proxy robo, you cannot deny the unload and warpin and once the adepts are in your base they keep running around, not to meantion I cant even have enough units out to fight them. For example cc first on orbital shipyard into 3 rax standard, simply impossible. Anyone has an idea or is it just broken again? (Talking about the 2 base version). 10 hp does not make a strategy go from unused to unstoppable...with the warp prism warp in nerf and the first adept change you should not have a terrible time holding assuming you react appropriately
It wasnt unused before, just less common. The warp in still comes faster than you can react and yes if its mass adept vs unupgraded marines then 10 hp make a big difference. It was hard to stop before the 10 hp buff but now it seems impossible. You say react appropiatly, but what do you do if you only see gates in protoss main. You cant have more units than normal 3 rax production unless you went 5 rax before gas which is bad and the protoss could do many things, you cant just make 6 bunkers spread at every cliff to your base.
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EPT
