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Legacy of the Week: Photon Overcharge
October 23rd, 2015 01:46 GMT
Photon OverchargeWelcome to the fourth Legacy of the Week! This week’s topic will be the photon overcharge ability found on the mothership core. Photon overcharge has changed vastly from its HotS counterpart. For starters, it is now cast on pylons rather than a nexus. It also has increased damage at the cost of reduced range and duration. This change from HotS continues to show Blizzard’s interest in tweaking and changing a lot of established units. There has already been some discussion about the ability in this thread, and we’d like to expand upon that discussion some more. Here are the new stats for the ability: - Costs 25 energy
- 200/200 HP
- 30 damage
- 7 range
- 0.89 attack speed
- 11 second duration
The stats of the ability have changed quite a bit. It does 30 damage (up from 20 in HotS), lowered range from 13 to 7, and has a significantly smaller duration. However, it also gained a huge benefit in a reduced cost (25, down from 100). At full energy you can cast 8 photon overcharges, provided there are 8 pylons within range. The major downside to this is of course the 200/200 HP that the pylon has, down from a nexus' 1000/1000. - Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
- Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
- Is the range of photon overcharge good?
- Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
- Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
- How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
- Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
- Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
- Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
- Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Leave your twitter handle in your response, and we’ll be tweeting out some answers on @TeamLiquidNet!
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Given the current energy costs, yes. Because you just chain it. But the energy costs should be doubled and the duration also extended.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Yes, I think it makes sense.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
I'm ok with that, it's short enough that you can slowly siege them, but should basically attack all lower range and tier units when they autoattack it.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
Yes, against Terrans that have to build walls against adepts for sure. But given that you may want to bring an MSC to your attacks anyways (time warp, recall) and you may have a probe around or can easily bring one, you could very well use it to fortify a contain position in rushes.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
I'd say no, but I don't have too much experience in that scenario.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Protoss doesn't have to simcity as much with it. Just having the MSC at home and pylons around the mineral lines grants Protoss a lot of defensive power. Prepare for Deadalus Point style of maps 
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Yes, of course.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Well, the MSC has to be present so that's that. But
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Yes.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
It's way too strong in LotV at the moment in my opinion, because of the 25energy cost. So no. Also the idea that Protoss can turn pylons into canons doesn't really excite me gameplaywise, but neither does the same thing for the nexus. If they get the balance right with this thing I could see it being better, but really, it's still a bandaid for Protoss mobility problems that blizzard could have fixed by making the adept just a fast unit, instead of the shade gimmick.
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On October 23 2015 11:09 Big J wrote:
Also the idea that Protoss can turn pylons into canons doesn't really excite me gameplaywise,
"Hey buddy I heard you like cannons, I turned your pylons into cannons so that you can cannon while you cannon..."
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This is exciting! now cannon rush can be 2x as effective with these extra pylon cannons. the nexus cannon was a defensive tool, but you know protoss can turn pylon cannon to a most effective cheese anyday.
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photon overcharge has always been a stupid abusive OP ability. zerg only race without some sort of defensive ability directly on their main base. #balance
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On October 23 2015 12:15 ChillingFrog89 wrote:
This is exciting! now cannon rush can be 2x as effective with these extra pylon cannons. the nexus cannon was a defensive tool, but you know protoss can turn pylon cannon to a most effective cheese anyday.
I'd be interested to know if you've ever faced a good, game-ending cannon rush augmented with pylon cannons. The mothership core is so far out of the way from cannon tech that I cannot imagine it being out in time for any kind of decent cannon rush timing. And the traditional cannon rush is already nerfed thanks to everyone now starting with 12 workers.
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Whoever thought you'd be getting your army decimated by Pylons.
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
I feel that PO is pretty weak in general. If it did less damage and lasted longer I think it'll be more useful, but I don't know if blizz wants it to be more useful.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Assuming you get the MC as soon as you can, there is really no practical use for it except for:
1. Kill a scouting reaper immediately
2. Defend from cannon/bunker rush
3. 12 pool
If we look farther down, we can see the MC be useful against 1 base pushes. I feel it's fine the way it is. It only helps the protoss survive against 1 base pushes, and past that the advantages are exponentially less useful.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
I think it might be a tad too small, but I'm not sure.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
If the range was greater, yes.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
It's pretty strong, but you have to understand where your opponent will drop at your base so you can position your mothership core there. There are good spots you can anticipate though. Usually 5-6 pylons stacked at a site will ward off 2-3 medivacs of units even if you don't have any other support.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Without a doubt. Sim city was already so important in PvZ and pretty important in PvT. This will only add to it.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Mineral line.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Yes, but not by much. 1 pylon is not impossible to kill, but 2 pushes it.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Yes. The range is pretty small.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
I don't think so.
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France1887 Posts
You are comparing numbers with different definitions of the game second (1 LotV second = 1.4 HotS second)
1.25 attack speed in HotS = 0.89 (1.25 / 1.4) in LotV
so the attack speed is the same
60 seconds in HotS = 42.8 (60 / 1.4) seconds in LotV
11 seconds in LotV is actually rounded from 15.0 / 1.4 = 10.7 seconds
so it's either 60 seconds → 15 seconds or ~43 seconds → ~11 seconds.
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Yes, more than enough, as you can chain the ability, and technically move it around. Depending on the situation you can also make multiple cannons on the fly as it were. The reduced duration also means that baiting an overcharge is a much less viable tactic, and may even make the new form overpowered as a protoss will basically always have a defense ready.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Not sure, but i'm leaning toward no. There is a sense that this ability will make protoss nearly invulnerable in the early game, especially when the MSC can just pop it when it comes out.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Given it's vastly increased power and more useful situational possibilities, yes. It should not be longer, possibly even reduced to 6 instead of 7.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
That completely depends on the scouting of the defender. If the pylons are scouted it's just a waste of energy, as they die fairly quickly.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Expect just a pylon in every base, no need to use cannons anymore near the mineral line, or warpins. I think it might make drop defense a bit too easy indeed, especially as warpins are also still available, as is teleport from the MSC/army.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Pylons may be put on the outside of the structues, rather than the inside.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
A pylon always has to be present anyway, so that won't change much.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
As i said earlier, it is probably a bit too powerful in the early game and against harassment. You will always need a substantial army, or a siege army, to attack a protoss base.
[b[Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?[/b]
The saving grace: The range. If it was any longer it would be completely overpowered to the point of being ridiculous. Now it's just straddling the line very, very carefully, but i think it's still leaning towards OP.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
In HotS overcharge did accomplish it's goal better, more focused, as it was meant to give protoss a chance to fend off early attacks. In the new iteration it feels like it's become too much of a jack of all trades, especially given the lowered energy cost.
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6. How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
-They'll never build another cannon again
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I think it's in a much better spot than in HotS. Now there is the tension for the attacking player to either commit to attacking the pylon, retreating or maneuvering around the PO. Also the pylon simcity makes an appearence, so it adds another depth level to building placement.
In HotS it's just a bad DPS, huge HP, long range and long duration cannon that simply takes one medivac healing to tank the damage. It's a set and forget ability, boring and creates no excitement.
If it needs to be nerfed because it's OP (not sure about it yet) then I would like to see some stat tweak instead of an energy cost increase to 50. Something like 26-28 DPS, 6 range or 9 seconds duration.
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I'd say the range and duration should be improved with cost increased. Simple.
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Canada8159 Posts
On October 23 2015 16:24 ChapatiyaqPTSM wrote:
You are comparing numbers with different definitions of the game second (1 LotV second = 1.4 HotS second)
1.25 attack speed in HotS = 0.89 (1.25 / 1.4) in LotV
so the attack speed is the same
60 seconds in HotS = 42.8 (60 / 1.4) seconds in LotV
11 seconds in LotV is actually rounded from 15.0 / 1.4 = 10.7 seconds
so it's either 60 seconds → 15 seconds or ~43 seconds → ~11 seconds.
Thanks I'll get it fixed ASAP
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
With the current damage, yes. It is really able to snowball earlygame fights into Protoss favors, but this is only considering if the opponent is attacking into the overcharge for the entire duration. The low duration and high damage might in some situations make Protoss look a bit too favored, but in other the current strength is really needed.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
With timings in perspective I think there are a lot of reasons to allow the MSC to use photon overcharge right as it spawns. However, being able to freely kill scouting units is a problem that feels counter-productive to the gamedesign.
On some maps, reaper will for example hit very fast and you can not get the MSC any faster (given only 15% chronoboost instead of 50% efficiency) so here the instant overcharge is quite necessary. But when you are also able to instantly deny an overlord or otherwise scouting units for 25 energy, something can feel problematic.
There is also a variety of earlygame timings where photon overcharge is necessary right away like proxy rax and 1 base speedlings.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
With the current stats I would say the range is good. I think increasing range by 1 (which will not affect it vs siege units) is a fair compensation for a nerf. The problem with decreasing range is i.e. bunker rushes or similar.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
I do not like offensive photon overcharge to be viable, and I do not think it is viable as long as safe builds are being used, which is mostly the case. The total damage output over the 11 second duration is simply too small in most cases now, and only in PvP is it actually possible to continue pushing with it as there is no creep or depot/bunker walls to push it back.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
I would say the greatest concern here is PvT. Photon Overcharge has done a lot of good with respect to drops in PvP (be it warp prism, phoenix or oracle) for the better, it was really problematic to deal with these things here.
Compared to HotS overcharge, the new MSC is capable of providing 11 seconds of 120 damage for the same cost as the old that did I believe 20 damage over +/- 41 seconds of LotV time per shot. Therefore it is easy to say the new overcharge can do damage to really deflect stuff and disencourage those plays from happening again.
For PvT of course drops are more easily deflected due to the high damage output of the pylons that easily just activates as terran is already committed to the drop. However, I would say this is compensated by the improved strength of other aspects on terran, like the liberator, and the weaker colossus etc.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Either Protoss opens with total coverage with 2-3 pylons around mineral lines, or they tend to use 1 in the middle of the mineral line to defend earlygame stuff and have extra pylons for something else.
The consequence, ultimately, is that Protoss is now able to use pylons both for supply, vision and 7 range cannon coverage but the latter only for a limited time. This allows protoss to not stress with making total walloffs anymore as well as allowing them to use pylons more flexibly for defence and scouting.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Defence over infrastructure for sure, but I think it is possible to do both. Other pylons can scout and defend vs drops, nydus etc. These pylons will also help with infrastructure.
In the earlygame I dare say defence is much more important.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Yes and no. It comes down to whether other protoss units are too weak and therefore photon overcharge too strong, which I could believe is the case. In any way, if photon overcharge damage should be changed then it should be compensated with a duration buff. The same comes with energy nerf in my opinion.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
The 11 seconds duration is easy to wait out especially in the mid- and lategame where mostly more than 1 pylon is activated with photon overcharge per attack. I think the problem is mostly present in the earlygame.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
For the most part, yes, but I could easily have imagined a cheaper but more patient version of the nexus overcharge. For instance half the duration but also half the energy cost with a slight damage increase.
The current photon overcharge however allows much more strategic decisionmaking and is therefore better.
I hope to see either a half-cut in damage, a double-up in energy cost but at the same time a double-up in duration.
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- Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Yes, I think the duration is just right. It should buy protoss enough time and makes it important not to use them all at once.
- Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
No I don't think so, the MSC itself is arleady a strong tool for scouting and defending. The energy for PO should be increased to 50 so it's not possble to be cast immediatly and it becomes less spammable.
- Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Yes I think any less range would be too weak for defending mineral lines and expansions. But any more and the pylon placement won't be as important, which is one of the best things that got introduced with the new PO
- Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
I'm not sure yet, but I think it is. You can force a zerg to build units instead of drones or he might lose a hatch and you don't have to invest in anything like a forge. Just 2 pylons do the trick. It's still a very situational tactic.
- Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Yes I think for the high DPS and flexibility (due to having more pylons than nexi), it's just too cheap. 25 energy will allow 8 overcharges by the time drops are on the way.
- How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Pylons will be on each side of mineral lines, at locations where drops are likely or overlords would fly in to scout.
- Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
I think they will build them at the mineral line at the start, but then also build some at the outskirts of their base do deflect drops and scouts.
- Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
A signle overcharge is not, but there are just too many, so yes.
- Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Yes, unless Protoss use all their overcharges, at which point it's better to just retreat completely and try again in 11 seconds.
- Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Just the fact that pylon placement is way more important now, makes it better than in HotS imo. It's just too spammable now, but once they fix that it should be fine. Then it won't be able to slow down pushes for as long as in LotV, but will deal more damage to reckless opponents.
Thanks for keeping the discussion going! @MusicusSC
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its much better then just the old nexus cannon and the range and dps are fine, but i think you can spam it too much. Increase energy but also increase the duration by a bit.
offensive pylon contain cheese attacks were annoying to play against when they first popped up but i dont think they are op anymore with the adept nerf.
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If anyone remembers holding 1-1-1 with protoss in Wol, i really miss the sentry as a defensive unit.
I have the strong opinion that Po should be cast from sentries, and not from the msc. While making 1 sentry would give you a small safety net, investing 500 gas into them would allow for a safer defense (while delaying tech).
The msc should be a cheaper / not limited to 1 in a role of either a support or scouting unit. 100/100 for the swiss army knife of units is what i hate about it.
Its very similar to the viper - its too useful against too many things, and theres no reason not to make them - Ranged units, large units - air units - slow units, all get screwed by the viper. And it flies.
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On October 23 2015 20:47 weikor wrote:
Its very similar to the viper - its too useful against too many things, and theres no reason not to make them - Ranged units, large units - air units - slow units, all get screwed by the viper. And it flies.
And it has infinity energy
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Bisutopia19366 Posts
On October 23 2015 18:08 jackacea wrote:
6. How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
-They'll never build another cannon again
This is actually very true. I never even consider cannons in my base now.
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EPT
