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Legacy of the Week: Photon Overcharge
October 23rd, 2015 01:46 GMT
Photon OverchargeWelcome to the fourth Legacy of the Week! This week’s topic will be the photon overcharge ability found on the mothership core. Photon overcharge has changed vastly from its HotS counterpart. For starters, it is now cast on pylons rather than a nexus. It also has increased damage at the cost of reduced range and duration. This change from HotS continues to show Blizzard’s interest in tweaking and changing a lot of established units. There has already been some discussion about the ability in this thread, and we’d like to expand upon that discussion some more. Here are the new stats for the ability: - Costs 25 energy
- 200/200 HP
- 30 damage
- 7 range
- 0.89 attack speed
- 11 second duration
The stats of the ability have changed quite a bit. It does 30 damage (up from 20 in HotS), lowered range from 13 to 7, and has a significantly smaller duration. However, it also gained a huge benefit in a reduced cost (25, down from 100). At full energy you can cast 8 photon overcharges, provided there are 8 pylons within range. The major downside to this is of course the 200/200 HP that the pylon has, down from a nexus' 1000/1000. - Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
- Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
- Is the range of photon overcharge good?
- Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
- Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
- How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
- Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
- Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
- Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
- Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Leave your twitter handle in your response, and we’ll be tweeting out some answers on @TeamLiquidNet!
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Given the current energy costs, yes. Because you just chain it. But the energy costs should be doubled and the duration also extended.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Yes, I think it makes sense.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
I'm ok with that, it's short enough that you can slowly siege them, but should basically attack all lower range and tier units when they autoattack it.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
Yes, against Terrans that have to build walls against adepts for sure. But given that you may want to bring an MSC to your attacks anyways (time warp, recall) and you may have a probe around or can easily bring one, you could very well use it to fortify a contain position in rushes.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
I'd say no, but I don't have too much experience in that scenario.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Protoss doesn't have to simcity as much with it. Just having the MSC at home and pylons around the mineral lines grants Protoss a lot of defensive power. Prepare for Deadalus Point style of maps 
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Yes, of course.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Well, the MSC has to be present so that's that. But
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Yes.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
It's way too strong in LotV at the moment in my opinion, because of the 25energy cost. So no. Also the idea that Protoss can turn pylons into canons doesn't really excite me gameplaywise, but neither does the same thing for the nexus. If they get the balance right with this thing I could see it being better, but really, it's still a bandaid for Protoss mobility problems that blizzard could have fixed by making the adept just a fast unit, instead of the shade gimmick.
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On October 23 2015 11:09 Big J wrote:
Also the idea that Protoss can turn pylons into canons doesn't really excite me gameplaywise,
"Hey buddy I heard you like cannons, I turned your pylons into cannons so that you can cannon while you cannon..."
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This is exciting! now cannon rush can be 2x as effective with these extra pylon cannons. the nexus cannon was a defensive tool, but you know protoss can turn pylon cannon to a most effective cheese anyday.
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photon overcharge has always been a stupid abusive OP ability. zerg only race without some sort of defensive ability directly on their main base. #balance
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On October 23 2015 12:15 ChillingFrog89 wrote:
This is exciting! now cannon rush can be 2x as effective with these extra pylon cannons. the nexus cannon was a defensive tool, but you know protoss can turn pylon cannon to a most effective cheese anyday.
I'd be interested to know if you've ever faced a good, game-ending cannon rush augmented with pylon cannons. The mothership core is so far out of the way from cannon tech that I cannot imagine it being out in time for any kind of decent cannon rush timing. And the traditional cannon rush is already nerfed thanks to everyone now starting with 12 workers.
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Whoever thought you'd be getting your army decimated by Pylons.
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
I feel that PO is pretty weak in general. If it did less damage and lasted longer I think it'll be more useful, but I don't know if blizz wants it to be more useful.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Assuming you get the MC as soon as you can, there is really no practical use for it except for:
1. Kill a scouting reaper immediately
2. Defend from cannon/bunker rush
3. 12 pool
If we look farther down, we can see the MC be useful against 1 base pushes. I feel it's fine the way it is. It only helps the protoss survive against 1 base pushes, and past that the advantages are exponentially less useful.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
I think it might be a tad too small, but I'm not sure.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
If the range was greater, yes.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
It's pretty strong, but you have to understand where your opponent will drop at your base so you can position your mothership core there. There are good spots you can anticipate though. Usually 5-6 pylons stacked at a site will ward off 2-3 medivacs of units even if you don't have any other support.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Without a doubt. Sim city was already so important in PvZ and pretty important in PvT. This will only add to it.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Mineral line.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Yes, but not by much. 1 pylon is not impossible to kill, but 2 pushes it.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Yes. The range is pretty small.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
I don't think so.
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France1887 Posts
You are comparing numbers with different definitions of the game second (1 LotV second = 1.4 HotS second)
1.25 attack speed in HotS = 0.89 (1.25 / 1.4) in LotV
so the attack speed is the same
60 seconds in HotS = 42.8 (60 / 1.4) seconds in LotV
11 seconds in LotV is actually rounded from 15.0 / 1.4 = 10.7 seconds
so it's either 60 seconds → 15 seconds or ~43 seconds → ~11 seconds.
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Yes, more than enough, as you can chain the ability, and technically move it around. Depending on the situation you can also make multiple cannons on the fly as it were. The reduced duration also means that baiting an overcharge is a much less viable tactic, and may even make the new form overpowered as a protoss will basically always have a defense ready.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Not sure, but i'm leaning toward no. There is a sense that this ability will make protoss nearly invulnerable in the early game, especially when the MSC can just pop it when it comes out.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Given it's vastly increased power and more useful situational possibilities, yes. It should not be longer, possibly even reduced to 6 instead of 7.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
That completely depends on the scouting of the defender. If the pylons are scouted it's just a waste of energy, as they die fairly quickly.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Expect just a pylon in every base, no need to use cannons anymore near the mineral line, or warpins. I think it might make drop defense a bit too easy indeed, especially as warpins are also still available, as is teleport from the MSC/army.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Pylons may be put on the outside of the structues, rather than the inside.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
A pylon always has to be present anyway, so that won't change much.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
As i said earlier, it is probably a bit too powerful in the early game and against harassment. You will always need a substantial army, or a siege army, to attack a protoss base.
[b[Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?[/b]
The saving grace: The range. If it was any longer it would be completely overpowered to the point of being ridiculous. Now it's just straddling the line very, very carefully, but i think it's still leaning towards OP.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
In HotS overcharge did accomplish it's goal better, more focused, as it was meant to give protoss a chance to fend off early attacks. In the new iteration it feels like it's become too much of a jack of all trades, especially given the lowered energy cost.
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6. How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
-They'll never build another cannon again
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I think it's in a much better spot than in HotS. Now there is the tension for the attacking player to either commit to attacking the pylon, retreating or maneuvering around the PO. Also the pylon simcity makes an appearence, so it adds another depth level to building placement.
In HotS it's just a bad DPS, huge HP, long range and long duration cannon that simply takes one medivac healing to tank the damage. It's a set and forget ability, boring and creates no excitement.
If it needs to be nerfed because it's OP (not sure about it yet) then I would like to see some stat tweak instead of an energy cost increase to 50. Something like 26-28 DPS, 6 range or 9 seconds duration.
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I'd say the range and duration should be improved with cost increased. Simple.
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Canada8157 Posts
On October 23 2015 16:24 ChapatiyaqPTSM wrote:
You are comparing numbers with different definitions of the game second (1 LotV second = 1.4 HotS second)
1.25 attack speed in HotS = 0.89 (1.25 / 1.4) in LotV
so the attack speed is the same
60 seconds in HotS = 42.8 (60 / 1.4) seconds in LotV
11 seconds in LotV is actually rounded from 15.0 / 1.4 = 10.7 seconds
so it's either 60 seconds → 15 seconds or ~43 seconds → ~11 seconds.
Thanks I'll get it fixed ASAP
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
With the current damage, yes. It is really able to snowball earlygame fights into Protoss favors, but this is only considering if the opponent is attacking into the overcharge for the entire duration. The low duration and high damage might in some situations make Protoss look a bit too favored, but in other the current strength is really needed.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
With timings in perspective I think there are a lot of reasons to allow the MSC to use photon overcharge right as it spawns. However, being able to freely kill scouting units is a problem that feels counter-productive to the gamedesign.
On some maps, reaper will for example hit very fast and you can not get the MSC any faster (given only 15% chronoboost instead of 50% efficiency) so here the instant overcharge is quite necessary. But when you are also able to instantly deny an overlord or otherwise scouting units for 25 energy, something can feel problematic.
There is also a variety of earlygame timings where photon overcharge is necessary right away like proxy rax and 1 base speedlings.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
With the current stats I would say the range is good. I think increasing range by 1 (which will not affect it vs siege units) is a fair compensation for a nerf. The problem with decreasing range is i.e. bunker rushes or similar.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
I do not like offensive photon overcharge to be viable, and I do not think it is viable as long as safe builds are being used, which is mostly the case. The total damage output over the 11 second duration is simply too small in most cases now, and only in PvP is it actually possible to continue pushing with it as there is no creep or depot/bunker walls to push it back.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
I would say the greatest concern here is PvT. Photon Overcharge has done a lot of good with respect to drops in PvP (be it warp prism, phoenix or oracle) for the better, it was really problematic to deal with these things here.
Compared to HotS overcharge, the new MSC is capable of providing 11 seconds of 120 damage for the same cost as the old that did I believe 20 damage over +/- 41 seconds of LotV time per shot. Therefore it is easy to say the new overcharge can do damage to really deflect stuff and disencourage those plays from happening again.
For PvT of course drops are more easily deflected due to the high damage output of the pylons that easily just activates as terran is already committed to the drop. However, I would say this is compensated by the improved strength of other aspects on terran, like the liberator, and the weaker colossus etc.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Either Protoss opens with total coverage with 2-3 pylons around mineral lines, or they tend to use 1 in the middle of the mineral line to defend earlygame stuff and have extra pylons for something else.
The consequence, ultimately, is that Protoss is now able to use pylons both for supply, vision and 7 range cannon coverage but the latter only for a limited time. This allows protoss to not stress with making total walloffs anymore as well as allowing them to use pylons more flexibly for defence and scouting.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Defence over infrastructure for sure, but I think it is possible to do both. Other pylons can scout and defend vs drops, nydus etc. These pylons will also help with infrastructure.
In the earlygame I dare say defence is much more important.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Yes and no. It comes down to whether other protoss units are too weak and therefore photon overcharge too strong, which I could believe is the case. In any way, if photon overcharge damage should be changed then it should be compensated with a duration buff. The same comes with energy nerf in my opinion.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
The 11 seconds duration is easy to wait out especially in the mid- and lategame where mostly more than 1 pylon is activated with photon overcharge per attack. I think the problem is mostly present in the earlygame.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
For the most part, yes, but I could easily have imagined a cheaper but more patient version of the nexus overcharge. For instance half the duration but also half the energy cost with a slight damage increase.
The current photon overcharge however allows much more strategic decisionmaking and is therefore better.
I hope to see either a half-cut in damage, a double-up in energy cost but at the same time a double-up in duration.
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- Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Yes, I think the duration is just right. It should buy protoss enough time and makes it important not to use them all at once.
- Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
No I don't think so, the MSC itself is arleady a strong tool for scouting and defending. The energy for PO should be increased to 50 so it's not possble to be cast immediatly and it becomes less spammable.
- Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Yes I think any less range would be too weak for defending mineral lines and expansions. But any more and the pylon placement won't be as important, which is one of the best things that got introduced with the new PO
- Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
I'm not sure yet, but I think it is. You can force a zerg to build units instead of drones or he might lose a hatch and you don't have to invest in anything like a forge. Just 2 pylons do the trick. It's still a very situational tactic.
- Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Yes I think for the high DPS and flexibility (due to having more pylons than nexi), it's just too cheap. 25 energy will allow 8 overcharges by the time drops are on the way.
- How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Pylons will be on each side of mineral lines, at locations where drops are likely or overlords would fly in to scout.
- Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
I think they will build them at the mineral line at the start, but then also build some at the outskirts of their base do deflect drops and scouts.
- Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
A signle overcharge is not, but there are just too many, so yes.
- Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Yes, unless Protoss use all their overcharges, at which point it's better to just retreat completely and try again in 11 seconds.
- Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Just the fact that pylon placement is way more important now, makes it better than in HotS imo. It's just too spammable now, but once they fix that it should be fine. Then it won't be able to slow down pushes for as long as in LotV, but will deal more damage to reckless opponents.
Thanks for keeping the discussion going! @MusicusSC
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its much better then just the old nexus cannon and the range and dps are fine, but i think you can spam it too much. Increase energy but also increase the duration by a bit.
offensive pylon contain cheese attacks were annoying to play against when they first popped up but i dont think they are op anymore with the adept nerf.
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If anyone remembers holding 1-1-1 with protoss in Wol, i really miss the sentry as a defensive unit.
I have the strong opinion that Po should be cast from sentries, and not from the msc. While making 1 sentry would give you a small safety net, investing 500 gas into them would allow for a safer defense (while delaying tech).
The msc should be a cheaper / not limited to 1 in a role of either a support or scouting unit. 100/100 for the swiss army knife of units is what i hate about it.
Its very similar to the viper - its too useful against too many things, and theres no reason not to make them - Ranged units, large units - air units - slow units, all get screwed by the viper. And it flies.
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On October 23 2015 20:47 weikor wrote:
Its very similar to the viper - its too useful against too many things, and theres no reason not to make them - Ranged units, large units - air units - slow units, all get screwed by the viper. And it flies.
And it has infinity energy
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On October 23 2015 18:08 jackacea wrote:
6. How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
-They'll never build another cannon again
This is actually very true. I never even consider cannons in my base now.
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You can find me on twitter at @electronicmo
1.Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
It's helpful. The fact that it takes so little energy means that once the 11 seconds have passed you can probably do it again for another 11 seconds.
2.Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
I don't think "logic" should play a part in this. I think Reaper openings from Terran are pretty much dead because of this though. Reaper hops in, I PO and it dies instantly without seeing anything. But maybe that's just Terrans needing to adapt. If it's too strong to start with 1 PO available then fine, start with none. But make it a decision based on balance and reasoning rather than catering to the squeakiest wheel on Team Liquid.
3.Is the range of photon overcharge good?
It's fine. Protoss players just need to be mindful of their sim city now.
4.Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy?
Not really. The fastest you can get a MsC out and over to your base is pretty set. At that period in time 300 minerals is a big deal. But with 11 seconds on 3 pylons you can't kill a Hatchery/CC/Nexus. If it's well executed it can be part of a crazy 1 base all-in but otherwise I think it's kind of dumb. That's not to say I haven't won with it... but I think once people get used to it it will be easy to defend.
5.Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
PO still requires your MsC to be in the area, and the MsC is pretty slow. In addition, Pylons can be focus fired pretty quickly. If you Overcharge 1 Pylon, they focus it down. If you Overcharge 3, they leave for 11 seconds and come back.
This PO is better at holding off things like widow mine drops where lots of burst DPS is good if they commit to the drop because you can do 3 Pylons at once. But in terms of defending your base from 2 Medivac bio drops I don't think it's too strong.
6.How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Protoss players obviously need to be mindful of where they're placing their pylons so they can cover all their important buildings and mining areas.
7.Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Mineral line is way more important. But the whole thing makes you take a new approach towards base layout. I'm buliding my bases a lot more. copact.
8.Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
If it were less good it would be absolutely useless. What's the point of having an ability that's bad against small packs of units?
9.Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
The only matchup where I find it to be problematic is PvP. The new PO basically eliminates half the openers from HotS. You can't go Oracle, you can't go Phoenixes, you can't do any sort of Gateway pressure. You can't go for drops.
Against Terran it's not an issue and against Zerg... well, if you're using PO you're pretty dead anyway.
10.Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
No.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Protoss players don't want to have to rely on PO. The only reason it needs to be in the game is Medivac Boost. Medivac Boost simply gives the Terran player TOO MUCH MOBILITY relative to the Protoss player. Protoss cannot, on equal economy, defend both where the Terran is and WHERE THE TERRAN CAN BE. The only unit that can theoretically do this is the Blink Stalker, and maps are being designed with a conscious effort to minimize Blink play.
Remove Medivac Boost and you remove the need for Protoss to defend a base without having units there.
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Cant you just give toss shield battery? Just the whole concept of "a pylon is now a cannon" turns me off. I thought giving a nexus a cannon was kind of weird but it was an ok idea considering terrans have the same thing, i guess it just looked funny. BUT NOW we have suppy building that can shoot? It is the exact same idea as supply depots having machine guns on top of them. Sounds a wee bit silly right? I think the shield battery would feel much more believale and fit into protoss lore better
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Also, why make cannons anymore? I guess they can detect but PO is so much more powerful than a cannon and it costs no money. Oh and im sure cheesers will use cannon rushes paired with PO. Now a cannon rush can be defended by turning the pylons powering it into cannons! Cannonception
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On October 24 2015 01:09 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Cant you just give toss shield battery? Just the whole concept of "a pylon is now a cannon" turns me off. I thought giving a nexus a cannon was kind of weird but it was an ok idea considering terrans have the same thing, i guess it just looked funny. BUT NOW we have suppy building that can shoot? It is the exact same idea as supply depots having machine guns on top of them. Sounds a wee bit silly right? I think the shield battery would feel much more believale and fit into protoss lore better
What good is a shield battery if a Stalker can't actually damage a Marine as it's getting healed?
Stop whining. If we went by believable then do you really thing dudes with Machine guns should be killing Immortals/Colossi/Void Rays/Tempests/Carriers?
Yes, it's funny that in theory you could cannon rush and use PO on the pylons that are powering the rush. Ha ha. But in practice it's fucking stupid and not really problematic at all.
Also, a Mothership core can only be in one place at a time to cast Photon Overcharge. If you have 3-4 bases on a big map you still need to make cannons.
So yes, Protoss doesn't need cannons on 2 bases anymore as long as they make a mothership core, place pylons near their minerals and make 2 observers.
Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Yes, waay more then enough.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Hell no, this is just Blizzard throwing as many bandaids they possibly can and then they are gonna peel them off one by one.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Range should be nerfed with how spammable it is
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
It can be but it can also be scouted and negated, I think it won't be viable outside of well crafted cheddar at high levels.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
With fast defensive warp ins it's just redundant, static defense should only slow drops down not stop them.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
I don't know, don't play Protoss only against them, but probably more akin to spines and spores.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Eh, they always got extra pylons everywhere, this will just make it worth it to think about placement
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Yes, but that can be fixed with an energy nerf, 25 energy is just hilarious.
[b[Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?[/b]
The one weakness is that the range isn't too long, if this wasn't the case Protoss would be just broken.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
It doesn't take much to be better then Planetary Nexus (quite possible the largest band aid fix ever) in HOTS, I'm just baffled that Gateway units couldn't be tuned accordingly to make this gimmick ass ability unnecessary, it just sucks, give Protoss a real way to counter their lack of mobility.
Like I don't know, make the Adept move fast and get rid of crap shade ability?
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On October 23 2015 13:11 Ozmodeus wrote:
photon overcharge has always been a stupid abusive OP ability. zerg only race without some sort of defensive ability directly on their main base. #balance
Asy... Asymmetrical.. b-balance?
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Everything is going to change drastically when they up cost to 50 energy. Not sure if any of these answers will count after that.
Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
- It works now with the 25 mana cost. Once it goes to 50, not sure.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
- Yes. Reapers, adepts, fast lings, proxy gates/barracks require this.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
- In the current spammable form yes. After 50 energy cost, I'd say give it another tick of range.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
- Sometimes. PvZ I think it's just a way to delay a Zerg third and trade resources to force them to make lings instead of drones. I haven't done the math to see if it is really worth it there.
-PvP, needs to be taken seriously, it can win a game if you didn't build pylons in a place to counter their behind the mineral pylon rush.
-PvT, has to be taken seriously but not that scary.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
- It seems about right. Dual drops nullify it. Single drops can be slowed or stopped.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
- It absolutely does. I've tried and seen the following: 1 pylon in the middle of your minerals. Pylons touching the nexus or minerals to start. And then on expansions, I've seen 4 pylons placed in a way to emulate cannons or bunkers to intercept incoming threats.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
- You have to have some by minerals no matter what to start I think.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
- It's good. Similar to bunkers.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
- It's easier to get around, wait out, and kill than in HotS.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
- Yes, it seems more useful when it needs to be, and less impossible to stop in time if the Protoss is being ultra greedy.
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1.Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Yes, the MSC has enough Energy to spam more than only one Overcharge
2.Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Yes, but only one not two. It is better too let the MSC alive if he is on low energy in my opinion. if you kill it, it will be boosted out and have 2 possible Overcharges.
3.Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Yes, I think it is OK.
4.Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
For a Canonrush or a Rush in general ist is really good, too good i think.
5.Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Don't know this, i am a Zerg.
6.How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Pylons... Pylons everywhere.
7.Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Sure, a Toss will need 2 or 3 Pylons at every important spot
8.Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
It is good vs all sort of Packs, it costs only 25 Energy for huge damage
9.Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
well, i think you can not move around easily, only back and wait. depends on the map, simcity an situation
10.Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Yes, only a bit to strong. I think with a cost of 50 Energy it will be fine.
Maybe they should do something like the past "better Pylons" so Toss can only overcharge Pylons near a Gate or a Nexus. This will shutdown the stupid 1 Pylon-Canon behind a Base.
But with the Energy increase i will be a happy Zerg.
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Canada8157 Posts
So it seems that a lot of you guys are saying that this essentially replaces cannons, making them useless. What about sentries? Do you guys still make a significant amount early on, or do you feel like photon overcharge is enough on its own?
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In theory I'd prefer a say 7 sec duration over an energy cost increasement. It seems to me that it's preferable if toss keeps the possibility to have lots of pylons and the msc in one place to delay/counter drops with simcity into warpins than just having less charges and get 100% countered by double drops.
Don't have the beta and have yet to see the new photon overcharge.
I still feel like this is a really stupid solution and would still vastly prefer a stalker that doesn't loose per cost against every single ground unit but the sentry and the hellion.
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Pretty straight forward question, do you have problems dealing with Photon Overcharge? Not the kind of problems where you go "crap, I need to back off for 11 second or attack a different base" but the kind where you feel the game is one sided enough to actively complain about it?
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
I think when attacking with few lings (10 zerglings) in the beginning of the game, or all-inning with 25-35 lings at the beginning of a game, the attack can always and always be held back by overcharging up to three times immediately when the mothership pops out of the nexus. It seams that protoss can get away with 2 bases straight from one gate and just hold off any agression with pylon overcharge. Going One Gate Cyb into Nexus seam to be impossible to attack for zerg who has banelings and speedlings to work with.
I've tried to drop zerglings and banelings into the main base (with less pylons) but even the one pylon that holds the gateway and the cybernetics can easily fend off 8 zerglings or kill banes.
In the beginning of the game its like protoss has a cannon at every location of their base making harassment little useful.
¤Drop the damage of the overcharge, increase the energy required or possibly make the mothership come out with less energy from start.
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On October 24 2015 01:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 01:09 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Cant you just give toss shield battery? Just the whole concept of "a pylon is now a cannon" turns me off. I thought giving a nexus a cannon was kind of weird but it was an ok idea considering terrans have the same thing, i guess it just looked funny. BUT NOW we have suppy building that can shoot? It is the exact same idea as supply depots having machine guns on top of them. Sounds a wee bit silly right? I think the shield battery would feel much more believale and fit into protoss lore better What good is a shield battery if a Stalker can't actually damage a Marine as it's getting healed?
Im gonna assume you are in gold league..Why would you attack a marine with a stalker. USE THE ADEPT THAT IS WHY THEY ARE IN THE GAME. The adept is made to fight the bio terran has. Give it shield battery and it can hold pretty well depending on the numbers. And you wouldnt have to worry about pylons shooting your natural...
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On October 25 2015 06:29 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 01:22 DinoMight wrote:On October 24 2015 01:09 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Cant you just give toss shield battery? Just the whole concept of "a pylon is now a cannon" turns me off. I thought giving a nexus a cannon was kind of weird but it was an ok idea considering terrans have the same thing, i guess it just looked funny. BUT NOW we have suppy building that can shoot? It is the exact same idea as supply depots having machine guns on top of them. Sounds a wee bit silly right? I think the shield battery would feel much more believale and fit into protoss lore better What good is a shield battery if a Stalker can't actually damage a Marine as it's getting healed? Im gonna assume you are in gold league..Why would you attack a marine with a stalker. USE THE ADEPT THAT IS WHY THEY ARE IN THE GAME. The adept is made to fight the bio terran has. Give it shield battery and it can hold pretty well depending on the numbers. And you wouldnt have to worry about pylons shooting your natural...
You don't have to assume. Nios.kr
I'm Masters HotS and Diamond LotV.
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I think it is a bad design issue, Otherwise cannon's role has decreased, wich is a bad thing too. I think pilon's role should be to give energy to buildings, and let you warp your units, nothing more coz i think blizz made a complicate thing about pylon which seems an enforced stuff to me. And as a protoss player too i dont have good feelings about the mothership core teleport to nexus both with photon overcharge. This is because u dont have to care abaout your base, you can teleport at home easily when u want, and thats kill enemy harassment+ with photon overcharge it is really hard to do small actions on protoss base in early game too. I know there is an oracle in pvp and in the current circumstances protoss early game is hard, but i think blizzard should solve this problem with units and/or build times. One more thing: After u research warpgate tech u wont use your gateway. I think blizzard should make a difference between warp gate and gateways production times, make gateway production time faster and protoss can use it too. This could helps to protoss to survive early game (warp gate=offensive option, gateway=defensive option), and protoss macro would require more skill which is good too
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Right now it is. If you increase energy and keep it on the pylon I'm not sure what would happen.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
I think that's a weird question. It makes it hard for Terran to get a good scout, but is healthy for the other match ups I think?
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
I think it's in a good spot, yeah. Definitely shouldn't be longer, but reducing it to 6 would be a little rough in pvp I think.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
As a tactic? Probably in some weird cheese, sure. As a strategy, like just rushing pylons and overcharging them? Nah. The most vulnerable race to this kind of thing is Protoss, and it's quite hold-able in PvP.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Again, kind of a silly question. Warding off drops is a big part of why it exists. Has it driven aerial harassment out of any match up? Nope. Air in PvP is tricky but I think it's still good. Maybe not as good as it was in hots but there are more reasons than PO for that.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
The first few pylons you drop at an expansion require a little thought, and in conjunction with the warp in changes it seems like gateways are getting spread out more than they used to be.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
I think it's pretty sloppy to not have a pylon in each mineral line by the time you're taking a third.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Again, that depends on what you want PO to accomplish. If it's about freeing Protoss to patrol the map with mobile units like the other races do, then no, I think it's doing a good job of that. If it's about giving a turtly Protoss a bit of a defensive edge early on then it's too good. The proof is in the pudding though, if Protoss moves out and plays exciting starcraft it's good. If they end up plastered to their bases until they're maxed then I don't like it.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Depends on how well placed the pylons are and how much energy the Protoss is willing to blow. For small to medium engagements, if a Protoss doesn't want you up a ramp etc they can stop you for a while.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Yes, in the sense that I think it's doing a better job of accomplishing what it was supposed to accomplish in the first place, which is allowing Protoss to be active on the map.
I think the adept and the disruptor also contribute to that, and how big of a role each piece plays is hard to say. But as long as we're seeing Protoss play mobile and active styles, I think we should be very, very wary of fucking with the conditions that allowed for that to happen.
Edit: spelling/clarity
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I probably shouldn't really comment on this because I've been using PO incredibly abusively after I saw Hitman using it on his stream.
Build 2 Pylons behind their mineral line with scouting Probe, float MSC over, shut down mining on their mineral line for several minutes... until they have enough to defeat 2 Pylons and the MSC. Fly the MSC away before it dies, and you've just spent 200 minerals to deny tons of mining time and killed a bunch of units too.
Dats how you win.
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On December 08 2015 09:54 BronzeKnee wrote:
I probably shouldn't really comment on this because I've been using PO incredibly abusively after I saw Hitman using it on his stream.
Build 2 Pylons behind their mineral line with scouting Probe, float MSC over, shut down mining on their mineral line for several minutes... until they have enough to defeat 2 Pylons and the MSC. Fly the MSC away before it dies, and you've just spent 200 minerals to deny tons of mining time and killed a bunch of units too.
Dats how you win.
Does this work in all match ups? My gut tells me it comes out too late for this to work but maybe I'm wrong haha
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Its much too hard for terran to cheese protoss because of it.
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IMHO,
Photon Overcharge is a band-aid mechanic that needs to get rid of. It was dumb enough in HOTS, and even more over powered in LOTV. Just the fact that protoss can get a cheap tier 1 flying spell casting unit that has over powered spells like Photon Overcharge, Recall, is just dumb. It's too easy to stop cheeses for pretty much for free at zero risk. Zero risk meaning, they never really over-prepare for something, such as making 5-8 cannons to stop a push that they think it's gonna come, with photon overcharge, they never have to make that many and still safe vs any type of push. It's way too good and i refuse to buy the game until they delete it or change it.
A uncheesable race isn't the answer.
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I feel it should recieve the same deal as fast warpins: make it only castable on pylons that have a nexus or gate in their radius. That's how you kill the aggro pylon rushes imo.
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Its too long
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
No, tis bad enought that The MC is out so early and Zerg cant touch it untill Hydra tech
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Range is fine
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
Yes
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Yes
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
They will expand faster as they dont need units to defend at all now
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Yes
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Yes
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
No its spammable , you can cover a full base with full energy
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Definatly not, this is the only change i disagree with in LoTV
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
In its current state i feel the balance is good for holding All ins or huge commited attacks.
Holding smaller agression and harrasment its slightly too strong.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Well, its the main reason for making the mothership core.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Yeah, I like the tuning of it. Perhaps its slightly too strong vs air like banshees or oracles.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
Let me ask you, do you think proxy 10 gate is a viable strategy? I actually do think that its not too bad offensively though, perhaps to contain your opponent or something.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Yeah, i think so - but then again, drops are pretty strong so they need a strong answer
I also think that there definitely are some weaknesses in a pylon defense that players cant exploit yet. Perhaps there are some tank timings where pylons are just useless.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?,
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
First of all you end up dropping a lot more pylons than you would without it. Ideally, you might have 3 to 4 pylons in a wall at your front nexus, a circle around your base for vision, and something protecting your mineral lines
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Probably
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Depends on what range units you have, lings - no, ravager - yes.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Definitely.
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shield battery is a really good example of how u can solve balance problems what dont pass over decisionmakes. You always make plylons (yes , near your mineral lines too), and u always make mothership core, becouse of its price, and because you can use it for many things(harass, defend, and its an air unit in early game). And u solve defense, u dont have to make cannons, or make more units in early game like sentries which is lose their main role in early game. I think people would like this game if they could make more decisions (they want to focus defense more or not, they want to make cannons, battery shields or sentries depends on the scout) becoz diversity of strategies and styles what made brood war a really good game. I have some grandmaster friend from wol and thats why they stop play with this game: You build and build and produce units and then fight with enemy. The better composition wins and thats all. Starcraft would be a better game if stategies with lots of actions (harassment, pokes etc) could be viable and thats what overcharge kills from the game (both with recall ) . I would lower the cannon's price or build time against oracle in pvp, i dont think cannonrush could be a viable option in lotv coz of the 12 worker-start or make battery shield or something better option. And yes i wont buy this game until they dont remove this overcharge as the others said before
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I'm surprised at the amount of people in this thread that think it's fine or should even be buffed. It's almost 34 DPS for 25 energy with an 11 second duration! Even a single charge can deter early pressure, and if the opponent pulls back, you can just cast another when they return. If your enemy focuses on destroying the pylons, that just buys you time in situations where they wouldn't otherwise (e.g. a Terran bio drop having to focus down a pylon instead of workers).
It's crazy powerful vs early pushes and standard drops. It's basically another "oh shit" button, in addition to recall. Terran and Zerg don't have "oh shit" buttons to bail them out when they're out of position. If Protoss needs a buff somewhere to compensate for a PO nerf, so be it. Buff what you need to, but don't have an "oh shit" button be so powerful. It was a very prominent component of Protoss play at Dreamhack, and it really did make its mark in most matches.
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1) Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
- the whole spell is gimmicky and band-aidy, so questionning its duration is pointless
2) Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
- nope since the spell makes no sense
3) Is the range of photon overcharge good?
- see previous answer
4) Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
- yes it is, and it's ridiculously stupid
5) Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
- see previous answers
6) How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
- it does
7) Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
- they already do
8) Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
- see previous answers
9) Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
- the whole spell is stupid. There shouldn't be room to maneuver around overcharged pylons, but PROTOSS UNITS
10) Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
- tricky question... It's less binary, you can attack on overcharged pylons if you're really sure you're gonna snipe them. However the burst is ridiculous, you can cast it right when the MSC gets out and it can be used offensively.
This spell is a band aid and an admission of failure from Blizzard. Give MSC a shield battery, buff protoss defense if you want to, but this spell is a disgrace to the game.
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
At it's cost, including Pylon positioning and MC energy, the duration feels reasonable, though it leans towards being more than long enough to defend.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Yes, this I agree completely with.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
I think the range is too long. With well-positioned Pylons, it becomes very hard to harass a Protoss player with a couple of units. This is unfair to the other races, which have to use their own units to defend against harassment.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
Eh, not really, but it's possible with its current range and damage.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Yes, I think this can be addressed by limiting its range more than it currently is.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?,
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Both? They already have to place it around their infrastructure, now just instead of putting it behind Warp Gates and other buildings, you put them in front since they can be overcharged. There's really no reason to not build any in your mineral line since you need to build Pylons anyway. With Photon Overcharge, it's better to spread out your Pylons to maximize your defenses.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Yes, it makes harassment too difficult, you would have to commit more units than your should in order to do damage, and they'll most likely die and make the exchange not worth it in the first place.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
No, the only way to micro against it is by moving your units out of range, which sometimes means being unable to engage effectively until the timer runs out.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Yes, it's a step in the right direction but still needs work.
What I would do is have Photon Overcharge target Photon Cannons instead of Pylons, and it's effect would increase (double?) the rate of fire for a duration. This way the player has to invest in defense already to get the bonus of Photon Overcharge, but if they do, it's more powerful since a Photon Cannon with twice the rate of fire is double what Photon Overcharge does now, it just has less range and requires a more expensive initial investment. The ability would be more powerful, less flexible, and in a way more expensive. It would also probably make cannon rushes the source of nightmares.
And alternative suggestion would be to remove the ability and move the Stasis Ward ability from the Oracle to the Mothership Core, but I'm not sure if this will be strong enough to defend effectively early game, especially from Terran which has access to detection via scanning very early and plenty of ranged units to take down the Stasis Ward. Zerg also has the Ravager, which can kill it without detection. The ability itself is also less interactive and would depend much more on positioning that Photon Overcharge does now.
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EPT
