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Canada8159 Posts
The LurkerWelcome to the second week of the focus topic! Last week was a success, with lots of great answers and discussion going around. This week will feature the lurker, a new unit to Zerg in LotV. Originally conceived in Brood War and a staple unit in the ZvT matchup, Blizzard recreated the unit into SC2. Its SC2 counterpart shares almost all the same features as the Brood War variation, from its recognizable linear spine attack, to the graphical design of the unit. Here are its stats in LotV: - Costs 150/150
- 42 second build time
- 3 supply cost
- 200 health
- Ground damage: 20 (+10 vs armored)
- 4.13 speed and 5.37 on creep
- Attack Range : 9
The total cost of the unit is 150/150, with the hydralisk taking 100/50 to produce, and the lurker morph 50/100. A total supply of three is needed, with two coming from the hydralisk, and the last one coming from the lurker morph, similar to that of a brood lord morph. The lurker den is morphed from the hydralisk den, taking an additional 71 seconds to morph on top of the 29 seconds that the hydralisk den takes. Compare that to the 43 seconds it takes for a baneling nest to make, and you get the idea of just how long it takes to make a lurker den. While morphing, the egg has 100 health, and one armor. Two lurkers can be transported at a time in overlords, making one shotting workers possible off of a drop. The lurker also features the ‘Hold Fire’ ability found on ghosts, intended to catch clumps of units off guard and use its splash damage attack to mow them down. The seismic spines upgrade was removed early on in the beta, giving the lurker its full nine range right off the bat. - Can the lurker popularize overlord drop harassment?
- Does the lurker overlap with current Zerg units, or does it remain unique enough for its own clique?
- How can the hold fire ability be used most effectively?
- Is the lurker better as a siege unit, or a harass unit?
- Should the lurker retain its nine range, or should the seismic spines upgrade return, reverting the lurker back to six range?
- It’s possible to micro against the lurker's attack by sidestepping the spines. Should this remain the way it is, or should a slower, but guaranteed to hit attack work better?
- Is the lurker model too big?
- Is the lurker's speed an issue, or is it fine the way it is?
- Does the lengthy tech time justify the end product? Should the lurker den be reduced in time?
Again, leave your answers to these questions in a comment below along with your twitter handle, and we’ll be selecting a few responses to tweet out on @TeamLiquidNet.
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1. Can the lurker popularize overlord drop harassment?
Hard to say since its a costly investment. so might for higher level play.
2. Does the lurker overlap with current Zerg units, or does it remain unique enough for its own clique?
imo overlaps a bit with brood lord but atm seems to fit what zerg needs for ground.
3.How can the hold fire ability be used most effectively?
traps and positioning. for maximum damage inbetween bases of opponent.
4.Is the lurker better as a siege unit, or a harass unit?
Defiently siege unit with the right comp can do alot of damage verse ground heavy armies.
5.Should the lurker retain its nine range, or should the seismic spines upgrade return, reverting the lurker back to six range?
no should not be reverted be too big a nerf.
6.It’s possible to micro against the lurker's attack by sidestepping the spines. Should this remain the way it is, or should a slower, but guaranteed to hit attack work better?
it should remain this way imo increases micro capacity for both sides of gameplay.
7.Is the lurker model too big?
i thinks a little big but the size is not an issue.
8. Is the lurker's speed an issue, or is it fine the way it is?
lurker speed is great since it still need to burrow for it to damage.
9.Does the lengthy tech time justify the end product? Should the lurker den be reduced in time?
either the build time of lurker den reduced or the gas cost reduced a little. seems quite atm considering how much gas time is needed to get there.
Need more open questions many seemed short for answers.
Twitter: @ascarecrow101
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1. Probably not since it has to burrow so they will always have time to pull workers.
2. Broodlord is probably a better siege unit but the lurker is better in engagements and defense so a tiny bit.
3, Sometimes if you time that right you get to one shot an army so traps can be pretty effective.
4. Siege Unit/defensive unit
5. Its already got a long tech time and if they put that back it would take even longer since no one is going to be building 6 range lurkers.
6. Sidestepping is good more micro is almost always good.
7. I think its fine.
8. They are already very powerful more buffs really aren't needed.
9. If they reduced it anymore we would probably see lurkers in just about every game, because they are just too good to not tech to at that point.
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Zerg doesnt need another mid-game ground-army AoE damage unit that can be used defensively / harrass. (Overlaps banelings role)
Zerg needs a competent unit that can take out enemy air units, such as mass BCs / Liberators, or mass Toss air, not corrupters.
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Can the lurker popularize overlord drop harassment?
I feel like a lurker drop isn't so different than a colossus or an immortal drop. It will do a lot of damage if the opponent doesn't deal with it but otherwise it's putting some expensive units in a vulnerable place. Lurkers will make doom drops a lot more deadly though.
Does the lurker overlap with current Zerg units, or does it remain unique enough for its own clique?
I don't feel that it overlaps.
How can the hold fire ability be used most effectively?
It could be quite good to put right outside of a Terran players base, somewhere that they wouldn't normally be scanning. Baneling mines are difficult to use because they have to be in the perfect spot. Lurkers are more forgiving.
Is the lurker better as a siege unit, or a harass unit?
Siege, no doubt.
Should the lurker retain its nine range, or should the seismic spines upgrade return, reverting the lurker back to six range?
I don't really mind the range, but there will be some frustrating timings for Protoss players to deal with I think.
It’s possible to micro against the lurker's attack by sidestepping the spines. Should this remain the way it is, or should a slower, but guaranteed to hit attack work better?
I don't feel that Lurker should just be able to get guaranteed kills in small numbers, otherwise lurker harass might be a little too powerful. In large battles its not really feasible to avoid the spines anyways.
Is the lurker model too big?
It's cool to see some bigger units for zerg. Most of them are so small (except the ultra).
Is the lurker's speed an issue, or is it fine the way it is?
They don't seem that fast to me.
Does the lengthy tech time justify the end product? Should the lurker den be reduced in time?
I was watching a GM level stream where the Zerg player was hitting some very deadly queen/lurker timings against Protoss. If you want to reduce the tech time, then maybe put the 9 range back on an upgrade.
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On October 08 2015 10:08 Jer99 wrote:- Can the lurker popularize overlord drop harassment?
- Does the lurker overlap with current Zerg units, or does it remain unique enough for its own clique?
- How can the hold fire ability be used most effectively?
- Is the lurker better as a siege unit, or a harass unit?
- Should the lurker retain its nine range, or should the seismic spines upgrade return, reverting the lurker back to six range?
- It’s possible to micro against the lurker's attack by sidestepping the spines. Should this remain the way it is, or should a slower, but guaranteed to hit attack work better?
- Is the lurker model too big?
- Is the lurker's speed an issue, or is it fine the way it is?
- Does the lengthy tech time justify the end product? Should the lurker den be reduced in time?
1. I think to a certain degree it already has in beta, will that continue seems to be unlikely. However this could def pop up with zergs like Rogue and TLO
2. Without the defiler its hard to say for certain the exact unique role of the lurker due to the existence of banelings. However the healthy range of the lurker presents potential siege opportunities that the baneling doesn't really have
3. Similarly to burrowed banes, wait for a moment where you can get max potential damage burst out.
4. Possible both...however I think it will be rare to see it used for harass at a professional level
5. I don't think leaving it at 9 is good, but I'm not entirely sure the upgrade is the solution either... I will have to see for myself the exact effectiveness of lurker range. Currently I'm leaning towards the upgrade being available at Lair perhaps? Hive seems too late
6. In my personal experience from BW (im gold/plat in hots) it is possible to dodge the spikes somewhat but it is very difficult. From a pro game perspective leave it as it is. That can produce really cool micro potential. Perhaps nerf the damage a little to compensate. On second thought, Legacy is already far more fast paced, micro based etc...so perhaps the non avoidable weaker spines would be good?
7. The lurker model is too big, its def more clunky than the BW version I feel (I could totally be wrong here but if I'm not...my point stands  )
8. Speed seems okay, lurkers shouldn't be too fast, their dps and burrow should be punished in some way.
9. I don't see why the BW approach (upgrade from hydra den) can't be adopted.
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1. It's very costly and with how long it would take to to get the Lurkers and not either die to a timing (you can almost never ever just tech to Lurkers) or give your opponent ample time to prepare, maybe in very high level play it will find it's uses via drop play.
2. Not really, Zerg doesnt have any type of positional control unit, the baneling doesn't fill the same roll at all so I have no clue what people are bringing it up for.
3. Burrowed baneling style son
4. Always for siege and to take mid game engagements more on the Zerg's terms.
5. Nerf it to maybe 8 with the upgrade going to 9, slightly tone it down right off the bat (maybe so it's not quite so difficult fo Protoss to deal with) but not cripple it and let it more smoothly translate into the mid late game.
6. It's difficult to do, but let it be difficult for the pros to show themselves as a level above us, more skill in the game is not a bad thing.
7. I like it the size it is, I don't know I don't picture it as being small, I see it being the size of like a 15 foot long Alligator/Spider, not the size of a pony.
8. It has to burrow, just because the tank for some reason has to suck doesn't mean the Lurker should have to, making it slow is not the way to do it, it's tech time alone justifies a strong unit. For the record, buff the siege tank and take away the medivac crap, now that the Lurker is super good I think they could make the Siege Tank a bit better at holding ground.
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Speaking as Terran Mech player. Masters hots and lotv
1. Can the lurker popularize overlord drop harassment?
Why not-but its simply not worth it when baneling drop does the same job at less the cost
2. Does the lurker overlap with current Zerg units, or does it remain unique enough for its own clique?
Ravager and Baneling are only parrallel I can see but lurker provides constant zoning out. Its a good siege unit role that Swarm Host should have never filled in first place.
3. How can the hold fire ability be used most effectively?
I mean its straight forward.
4. Is the lurker better as a siege unit, or a harass unit?
Has and always been siege unit.
5. Should the lurker retain its nine range, or should the seismic spines upgrade return, reverting the lurker back to six range?
I think its fine given how long it takes to get hydra den, but if it does, make it 7 to 9 so it doesnt get outraged by stalkers early game
6. It’s possible to micro against the lurker's attack by sidestepping the spines. Should this remain the way it is, or should a slower, but guaranteed to hit attack work better?
Its really right now way too fast to be dodged really. It feels way faster than it did on bw. You should make it slightly slower.
7. Is the lurker model too big?
Fine as it is.
8. Is the lurker's speed an issue, or is it fine the way it is?
Fine as it is-speed isn't an issue but Burrow speed and its HP is.
9. Does the lengthy tech time justify the end product? Should the lurker den be reduced in time?
It completely justifies the co tand length to get it. Siege units should be feared and used careful against. The damage it does while invisible is great, but it could do way less on HP department and burrow time department, so it can't burrow right in face of armies. It should take a bit more time to burrow so it encourages positioning.
Right now, SC2 doesn't really have this sort of powerful siege unit until lotv. Tanks weren't great and used more as supporting but with lurker, we see how it should be- opponents threading carefully against it. Its a welcome addition to zerg arsenal.
On October 08 2015 11:20 parkufarku wrote:
Zerg doesnt need another mid-game ground-army AoE damage unit that can be used defensively / harrass. (Overlaps banelings role)
Zerg needs a competent unit that can take out enemy air units, such as mass BCs / Liberators, or mass Toss air, not corrupters.
Vipers mate.
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On October 08 2015 11:20 parkufarku wrote:
Zerg doesnt need another mid-game ground-army AoE damage unit that can be used defensively / harrass. (Overlaps banelings role)
Zerg needs a competent unit that can take out enemy air units, such as mass BCs / Liberators, or mass Toss air, not corrupters.
in broodwar zerg didn't have strong air vs air neither and still the game wasn't broken as long as they could force the battle to the ground. it was the synergy with a strong but not op support spell (dark swarm, which back in in the days took me years to figure out what it actually did^^) that made it work I guess...
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I LOVE THE LURKER! And I didn't expect to coming in. I'll be honest, I sort of thought the love of lurkers was just a bit of BW elitism sneaking in. But holy hell is the lurker fun and changes the race in wonderful ways.
Does the lurker overlap? Maybe a tiny bit with brood lords, but even then I don't think so. I don't actually consider it as overlapping with the baneling. One is ranged AOE, one is melee AOE, and your entire army comp will change based on which one you elect to use as your AOE, this is the case in both ZVZ and to some extent ZvT (If terran goes bio). Vs Protoss I still use the lurker but I'm guessing at higher leagues that's likely not viable due to the disruptor being quite good against them.
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Can the lurker popularize overlord drop harassment?
That depends on the drops. At the current time it's a bit like baneling drops, very powerful but costly and when the opponent reacts fast enough the risk is often not worth the cost.
Does the lurker overlap with current Zerg units, or does it remain unique enough for its own clique?
It's a very unique unit. The other ranged splash option for zerg would be the infestor, which has a very low damage output and cannot siege buildings or any higher health units effectively. That being said the lurker feels very weak if the opponent brings sufficient amounts of siege tools or is just mobile enough to go around it.
How can the hold fire ability be used most effectively?
I personally used it a bit in my muta-->lurker style in ZvZ. With mutas you can often aggressively snipe overseers, or the opponent doesn't bring them to begin with not suspecting a very fast lurker transition behind. Combined with the hold fire this can give you a very quick victory as the lurker is devastating if you unleash it on an army in close range with no means to kill the source of the damage.
Is the lurker better as a siege unit, or a harass unit?
Siege of course.
Should the lurker retain its nine range, or should the seismic spines upgrade return, reverting the lurker back to six range?
6 range would be way too little. The seismic spines upgrade is a bad idea currently because the lurker den morph already takes as long as a spire - on top of having to build a hydralisk den. Whether 9 range is the perfect number I'm not sure, but I think 9 is the smallest siege range value in starcraft. If the range falls below 8-9 the lurker would lose a lot of its purpose.
It’s possible to micro against the lurker's attack by sidestepping the spines. Should this remain the way it is, or should a slower, but guaranteed to hit attack work better?
It's very good as it is, but the attack could be a little more consistent with the animation, hitting every target the moment the spines travel through them instead of unleashing line splash damage at the end of the animation.
Is the lurker model too big?
I think it's pretty perfect in size. It represents the power of the unit properly and makes the unit not too slippery, requring some control to get into position properly.
Is the lurker's speed an issue, or is it fine the way it is?
Maybe against Protoss. It feels already insufficient at forcing bio/tank or bio/liberator compositions to fight with the lurker already.
Does the lengthy tech time justify the end product? Should the lurker den be reduced in time?
Yes, at the current point in the game I think teching to lurkers is going to be too hard in comparison to other splash or siege options. Also losing the lurker den has too much impact on the game, as rebuilding it just takes forever.
I feel like the lurker could help a lot with zerg gameplay issues (ZvZ roach/ravager wars, TvZ ranged compositions). But the more fleshed out and aggressive the metagame is getting, the harder it becomes to even just plan with them.
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5. Please revert to original. It makes no sense that lurkers out shoots collosus
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- Can the lurker popularize overlord drop harassment?
I think lurker drops will be extremely rare, since they are very expensive and compared to medivac drops or warp prism harass, overlords usually don't escape alive, neither does their cargo.
- Does the lurker overlap with current Zerg units, or does it remain unique enough for its own clique?
The Lurker is very uniquie imo, no other zerg unit can control space like the lurker does. Brood Lords don't compare since they come way later, are less mobile and are an air unit. Broodlords are also way more dependent on support units than Lurkers.
- How can the hold fire ability be used most effectively?
Well setting up traps at ramaps and choke points, good creep spread is important to see enemy units coming.
- Is the lurker better as a siege unit, or a harass unit?
Better for sieging/defending locations I think. For harassing Mutas or ling runbys are still superior since they can get in and out faster. Lurker harass can still be very annoying in spread out games since it forces your opponent to bring detection.
- Should the lurker retain its nine range, or should the seismic spines upgrade return, reverting the lurker back to six range?
Since the lurker den itself takes a long time to morph, I think an upgrade would delay Lurkers too long. It's fine as it is.
- It’s possible to micro against the lurker's attack by sidestepping the spines. Should this remain the way it is, or should a slower, but guaranteed to hit attack work better?
Side stepping micro should be possible, the Lurker spines could travel a bit slower too imo to make it easier to dodge them (same with the disruptor shot btw, but this is offtopic ).
- Is the lurker model too big?
I think it's fine, it should not be too hard to target so you can kill it fast during a scan for example and it's size represents it's strength.
- Is the lurker's speed an issue, or is it fine the way it is?
The lurker has to be fast, since it is completely helpless while moving around. It can only run if caught.
- Does the lengthy tech time justify the end product? Should the lurker den be reduced in time?
I think the lurker is good enough to justify the lurker den moprh time.
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Can the lurker popularize overlord drop harassment?
I can definitely see potential drops / harassment oriented attacks happening. If you're already teching to Lurkers and have a few to defend, it's not a big leap to upgrade overlord speed and morph an overlord to drop.
Does the lurker overlap with current Zerg units, or does it remain unique enough for its own clique?
For what it does, I don't feel it really overlaps with other zerg units.I think it's strong, but I also think that it's not something you 100% have to build all the time.
How can the hold fire ability be used most effectively?
There are a bunch of crazy positions you could setup with a few lurkers and an unsuspecting opponent. A crossfire with a few lurkers will tear any army to pieces
Is the lurker better as a siege unit, or a harass unit?
I think it's better as a siege unit than a harass unit, but it could be used as both. It's also great in a defensive position. It's the zerg's version of a liberator. A unit that can do everything (but shoot up)
Should the lurker retain its nine range, or should the seismic spines upgrade return, reverting the lurker back to six range?
Yeah, making that an upgrade would hit lurkers hard. It's already a large investment to tech into lurkers. When instead of wasting time, I could just tech to Ultras. I guess it really depends on the upgrade. The cost, how long it took to finish, and if it works well with what my opponent is doing. As of right now, Siege tanks already counter Lurkers with range, and are much easier to access for Terran, so it wouldn't really be worth the investment imo.
It’s possible to micro against the lurker's attack by sidestepping the spines. Should this remain the way it is, or should a slower, but guaranteed to hit attack work better?
Yeah I like this. It gives bio and blink stalkers a way to be played and kind of out-play your opponent with Micro. Which is what I think Blizzard is going for with LOTV.
Is the lurker model too big?
It's a little large, but it's a giant hydra that shoots spikes. What do you want from it?
Is the lurker's speed an issue, or is it fine the way it is?
Nah, I think it's speed is fine.
Does the lengthy tech time justify the end product? Should the lurker den be reduced in time?
As of right now, I'd say yes. The Lurker won't end the game on it's own (unless you do some crazy harass and kill all the mineral lines and production), but it does enough to justify it's cost
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Canada8159 Posts
Have you guys been playing vs. Lurkers much in LotV? I've only seen one Zerg player use them out of ~100 games.
And as a Zerg player do you actually use them?
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On October 08 2015 18:23 Jer99 wrote:
Have you guys been playing vs. Lurkers much in LotV? I've only seen one Zerg player use them out of ~100 games.
And as a Zerg player do you actually use them?
I used them in zvp before Protoss started doing Skytoss every game. It was great fun, the games were really exciting. Playing ling/hydra/lurker vs adept/stalker/disruptor was incredibly fun! Didn't use them much in zvt yet.
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On October 08 2015 18:23 Jer99 wrote:
Have you guys been playing vs. Lurkers much in LotV? I've only seen one Zerg player use them out of ~100 games.
And as a Zerg player do you actually use them?
I use them ZvZ and ZvP when the opponent goes for a groundbased macro game (so not very often  ). They are very powerful in those matchups against ground compositions in the later stages of the game.
In ZvZ mass lurker is the single strongest ground compositions by kilometres.
Tried them in ZvT with various compositions. They didn't feel any useful.
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On October 08 2015 18:23 Jer99 wrote:
Have you guys been playing vs. Lurkers much in LotV? I've only seen one Zerg player use them out of ~100 games.
And as a Zerg player do you actually use them?
I haven't used them that much, they seem very strong vs aggressive bio styles. Ling bane muta or corrupter into ultras seems better due to liberators being very good at killing lurkers. Against mech I still try the queen ultra viper timing.
Disruptors are one of the major reasons why I'm hesitant to use them vs toss, but I think they're very strong vs the "classic deathball".
Also most protoss players I've been playing against seem to favor carriers. Lurkers aren't good at shooting up.
I can't say much about them in zvz as I don't understand that matchup since the economy+ larva change. I think I've used them a total of 3 times in zvz. First time I lost to ravagers, second vipers+ roach hydra and the 3'd game I won. He kept running roaches without detection...
For reference I'm about mid-masters hots with a bunch of BP, haven't had time to ladder on the beta that much so its only diamond.
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On October 08 2015 17:50 shin_toss wrote:
5. Please revert to original. It makes no sense that lurkers out shoots collosus
It doesn't outrange the Colossus anymore, which is exactly how it should be.
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On October 08 2015 17:15 MrMischelito wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 11:20 parkufarku wrote:
Zerg doesnt need another mid-game ground-army AoE damage unit that can be used defensively / harrass. (Overlaps banelings role)
Zerg needs a competent unit that can take out enemy air units, such as mass BCs / Liberators, or mass Toss air, not corrupters. in broodwar zerg didn't have strong air vs air neither and still the game wasn't broken as long as they could force the battle to the ground. it was the synergy with a strong but not op support spell (dark swarm, which back in in the days took me years to figure out what it actually did^^) that made it work I guess...
Scourge was solid
Problem is that air in sc2 is very powerful compared to what was in BW and G2A had become weaker in comparison
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EPT
