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You can find me on twitter at @electronicmo
1.Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
It's helpful. The fact that it takes so little energy means that once the 11 seconds have passed you can probably do it again for another 11 seconds.
2.Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
I don't think "logic" should play a part in this. I think Reaper openings from Terran are pretty much dead because of this though. Reaper hops in, I PO and it dies instantly without seeing anything. But maybe that's just Terrans needing to adapt. If it's too strong to start with 1 PO available then fine, start with none. But make it a decision based on balance and reasoning rather than catering to the squeakiest wheel on Team Liquid.
3.Is the range of photon overcharge good?
It's fine. Protoss players just need to be mindful of their sim city now.
4.Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy?
Not really. The fastest you can get a MsC out and over to your base is pretty set. At that period in time 300 minerals is a big deal. But with 11 seconds on 3 pylons you can't kill a Hatchery/CC/Nexus. If it's well executed it can be part of a crazy 1 base all-in but otherwise I think it's kind of dumb. That's not to say I haven't won with it... but I think once people get used to it it will be easy to defend.
5.Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
PO still requires your MsC to be in the area, and the MsC is pretty slow. In addition, Pylons can be focus fired pretty quickly. If you Overcharge 1 Pylon, they focus it down. If you Overcharge 3, they leave for 11 seconds and come back.
This PO is better at holding off things like widow mine drops where lots of burst DPS is good if they commit to the drop because you can do 3 Pylons at once. But in terms of defending your base from 2 Medivac bio drops I don't think it's too strong.
6.How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Protoss players obviously need to be mindful of where they're placing their pylons so they can cover all their important buildings and mining areas.
7.Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Mineral line is way more important. But the whole thing makes you take a new approach towards base layout. I'm buliding my bases a lot more. copact.
8.Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
If it were less good it would be absolutely useless. What's the point of having an ability that's bad against small packs of units?
9.Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
The only matchup where I find it to be problematic is PvP. The new PO basically eliminates half the openers from HotS. You can't go Oracle, you can't go Phoenixes, you can't do any sort of Gateway pressure. You can't go for drops.
Against Terran it's not an issue and against Zerg... well, if you're using PO you're pretty dead anyway.
10.Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
No.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Protoss players don't want to have to rely on PO. The only reason it needs to be in the game is Medivac Boost. Medivac Boost simply gives the Terran player TOO MUCH MOBILITY relative to the Protoss player. Protoss cannot, on equal economy, defend both where the Terran is and WHERE THE TERRAN CAN BE. The only unit that can theoretically do this is the Blink Stalker, and maps are being designed with a conscious effort to minimize Blink play.
Remove Medivac Boost and you remove the need for Protoss to defend a base without having units there.
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Cant you just give toss shield battery? Just the whole concept of "a pylon is now a cannon" turns me off. I thought giving a nexus a cannon was kind of weird but it was an ok idea considering terrans have the same thing, i guess it just looked funny. BUT NOW we have suppy building that can shoot? It is the exact same idea as supply depots having machine guns on top of them. Sounds a wee bit silly right? I think the shield battery would feel much more believale and fit into protoss lore better
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Also, why make cannons anymore? I guess they can detect but PO is so much more powerful than a cannon and it costs no money. Oh and im sure cheesers will use cannon rushes paired with PO. Now a cannon rush can be defended by turning the pylons powering it into cannons! Cannonception
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On October 24 2015 01:09 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Cant you just give toss shield battery? Just the whole concept of "a pylon is now a cannon" turns me off. I thought giving a nexus a cannon was kind of weird but it was an ok idea considering terrans have the same thing, i guess it just looked funny. BUT NOW we have suppy building that can shoot? It is the exact same idea as supply depots having machine guns on top of them. Sounds a wee bit silly right? I think the shield battery would feel much more believale and fit into protoss lore better
What good is a shield battery if a Stalker can't actually damage a Marine as it's getting healed?
Stop whining. If we went by believable then do you really thing dudes with Machine guns should be killing Immortals/Colossi/Void Rays/Tempests/Carriers?
Yes, it's funny that in theory you could cannon rush and use PO on the pylons that are powering the rush. Ha ha. But in practice it's fucking stupid and not really problematic at all.
Also, a Mothership core can only be in one place at a time to cast Photon Overcharge. If you have 3-4 bases on a big map you still need to make cannons.
So yes, Protoss doesn't need cannons on 2 bases anymore as long as they make a mothership core, place pylons near their minerals and make 2 observers.
Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Yes, waay more then enough.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Hell no, this is just Blizzard throwing as many bandaids they possibly can and then they are gonna peel them off one by one.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Range should be nerfed with how spammable it is
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
It can be but it can also be scouted and negated, I think it won't be viable outside of well crafted cheddar at high levels.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
With fast defensive warp ins it's just redundant, static defense should only slow drops down not stop them.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
I don't know, don't play Protoss only against them, but probably more akin to spines and spores.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Eh, they always got extra pylons everywhere, this will just make it worth it to think about placement
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Yes, but that can be fixed with an energy nerf, 25 energy is just hilarious.
[b[Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?[/b]
The one weakness is that the range isn't too long, if this wasn't the case Protoss would be just broken.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
It doesn't take much to be better then Planetary Nexus (quite possible the largest band aid fix ever) in HOTS, I'm just baffled that Gateway units couldn't be tuned accordingly to make this gimmick ass ability unnecessary, it just sucks, give Protoss a real way to counter their lack of mobility.
Like I don't know, make the Adept move fast and get rid of crap shade ability?
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On October 23 2015 13:11 Ozmodeus wrote:
photon overcharge has always been a stupid abusive OP ability. zerg only race without some sort of defensive ability directly on their main base. #balance
Asy... Asymmetrical.. b-balance?
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Everything is going to change drastically when they up cost to 50 energy. Not sure if any of these answers will count after that.
Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
- It works now with the 25 mana cost. Once it goes to 50, not sure.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
- Yes. Reapers, adepts, fast lings, proxy gates/barracks require this.
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
- In the current spammable form yes. After 50 energy cost, I'd say give it another tick of range.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
- Sometimes. PvZ I think it's just a way to delay a Zerg third and trade resources to force them to make lings instead of drones. I haven't done the math to see if it is really worth it there.
-PvP, needs to be taken seriously, it can win a game if you didn't build pylons in a place to counter their behind the mineral pylon rush.
-PvT, has to be taken seriously but not that scary.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
- It seems about right. Dual drops nullify it. Single drops can be slowed or stopped.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
- It absolutely does. I've tried and seen the following: 1 pylon in the middle of your minerals. Pylons touching the nexus or minerals to start. And then on expansions, I've seen 4 pylons placed in a way to emulate cannons or bunkers to intercept incoming threats.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
- You have to have some by minerals no matter what to start I think.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
- It's good. Similar to bunkers.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
- It's easier to get around, wait out, and kill than in HotS.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
- Yes, it seems more useful when it needs to be, and less impossible to stop in time if the Protoss is being ultra greedy.
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1.Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Yes, the MSC has enough Energy to spam more than only one Overcharge
2.Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
Yes, but only one not two. It is better too let the MSC alive if he is on low energy in my opinion. if you kill it, it will be boosted out and have 2 possible Overcharges.
3.Is the range of photon overcharge good?
Yes, I think it is OK.
4.Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
For a Canonrush or a Rush in general ist is really good, too good i think.
5.Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Don't know this, i am a Zerg.
6.How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
Pylons... Pylons everywhere.
7.Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
Sure, a Toss will need 2 or 3 Pylons at every important spot
8.Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
It is good vs all sort of Packs, it costs only 25 Energy for huge damage
9.Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
well, i think you can not move around easily, only back and wait. depends on the map, simcity an situation
10.Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Yes, only a bit to strong. I think with a cost of 50 Energy it will be fine.
Maybe they should do something like the past "better Pylons" so Toss can only overcharge Pylons near a Gate or a Nexus. This will shutdown the stupid 1 Pylon-Canon behind a Base.
But with the Energy increase i will be a happy Zerg.
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Canada8159 Posts
So it seems that a lot of you guys are saying that this essentially replaces cannons, making them useless. What about sentries? Do you guys still make a significant amount early on, or do you feel like photon overcharge is enough on its own?
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In theory I'd prefer a say 7 sec duration over an energy cost increasement. It seems to me that it's preferable if toss keeps the possibility to have lots of pylons and the msc in one place to delay/counter drops with simcity into warpins than just having less charges and get 100% countered by double drops.
Don't have the beta and have yet to see the new photon overcharge.
I still feel like this is a really stupid solution and would still vastly prefer a stalker that doesn't loose per cost against every single ground unit but the sentry and the hellion.
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Pretty straight forward question, do you have problems dealing with Photon Overcharge? Not the kind of problems where you go "crap, I need to back off for 11 second or attack a different base" but the kind where you feel the game is one sided enough to actively complain about it?
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
I think when attacking with few lings (10 zerglings) in the beginning of the game, or all-inning with 25-35 lings at the beginning of a game, the attack can always and always be held back by overcharging up to three times immediately when the mothership pops out of the nexus. It seams that protoss can get away with 2 bases straight from one gate and just hold off any agression with pylon overcharge. Going One Gate Cyb into Nexus seam to be impossible to attack for zerg who has banelings and speedlings to work with.
I've tried to drop zerglings and banelings into the main base (with less pylons) but even the one pylon that holds the gateway and the cybernetics can easily fend off 8 zerglings or kill banes.
In the beginning of the game its like protoss has a cannon at every location of their base making harassment little useful.
¤Drop the damage of the overcharge, increase the energy required or possibly make the mothership come out with less energy from start.
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On October 24 2015 01:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 01:09 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Cant you just give toss shield battery? Just the whole concept of "a pylon is now a cannon" turns me off. I thought giving a nexus a cannon was kind of weird but it was an ok idea considering terrans have the same thing, i guess it just looked funny. BUT NOW we have suppy building that can shoot? It is the exact same idea as supply depots having machine guns on top of them. Sounds a wee bit silly right? I think the shield battery would feel much more believale and fit into protoss lore better What good is a shield battery if a Stalker can't actually damage a Marine as it's getting healed?
Im gonna assume you are in gold league..Why would you attack a marine with a stalker. USE THE ADEPT THAT IS WHY THEY ARE IN THE GAME. The adept is made to fight the bio terran has. Give it shield battery and it can hold pretty well depending on the numbers. And you wouldnt have to worry about pylons shooting your natural...
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On October 25 2015 06:29 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2015 01:22 DinoMight wrote:On October 24 2015 01:09 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Cant you just give toss shield battery? Just the whole concept of "a pylon is now a cannon" turns me off. I thought giving a nexus a cannon was kind of weird but it was an ok idea considering terrans have the same thing, i guess it just looked funny. BUT NOW we have suppy building that can shoot? It is the exact same idea as supply depots having machine guns on top of them. Sounds a wee bit silly right? I think the shield battery would feel much more believale and fit into protoss lore better What good is a shield battery if a Stalker can't actually damage a Marine as it's getting healed? Im gonna assume you are in gold league..Why would you attack a marine with a stalker. USE THE ADEPT THAT IS WHY THEY ARE IN THE GAME. The adept is made to fight the bio terran has. Give it shield battery and it can hold pretty well depending on the numbers. And you wouldnt have to worry about pylons shooting your natural...
You don't have to assume. Nios.kr
I'm Masters HotS and Diamond LotV.
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I think it is a bad design issue, Otherwise cannon's role has decreased, wich is a bad thing too. I think pilon's role should be to give energy to buildings, and let you warp your units, nothing more coz i think blizz made a complicate thing about pylon which seems an enforced stuff to me. And as a protoss player too i dont have good feelings about the mothership core teleport to nexus both with photon overcharge. This is because u dont have to care abaout your base, you can teleport at home easily when u want, and thats kill enemy harassment+ with photon overcharge it is really hard to do small actions on protoss base in early game too. I know there is an oracle in pvp and in the current circumstances protoss early game is hard, but i think blizzard should solve this problem with units and/or build times. One more thing: After u research warpgate tech u wont use your gateway. I think blizzard should make a difference between warp gate and gateways production times, make gateway production time faster and protoss can use it too. This could helps to protoss to survive early game (warp gate=offensive option, gateway=defensive option), and protoss macro would require more skill which is good too
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Is an 11 second duration long enough to deal against early attacks ?
Right now it is. If you increase energy and keep it on the pylon I'm not sure what would happen.
Do you think it’s logical that the mothership core can cast photon overcharge as soon as it’s finished?
I think that's a weird question. It makes it hard for Terran to get a good scout, but is healthy for the other match ups I think?
Is the range of photon overcharge good?
I think it's in a good spot, yeah. Definitely shouldn't be longer, but reducing it to 6 would be a little rough in pvp I think.
Do you think offensive photon overcharge is a viable strategy ?
As a tactic? Probably in some weird cheese, sure. As a strategy, like just rushing pylons and overcharging them? Nah. The most vulnerable race to this kind of thing is Protoss, and it's quite hold-able in PvP.
Is photon overcharge too good at warding off drops?
Again, kind of a silly question. Warding off drops is a big part of why it exists. Has it driven aerial harassment out of any match up? Nope. Air in PvP is tricky but I think it's still good. Maybe not as good as it was in hots but there are more reasons than PO for that.
How do you think this will change the way Protoss simcity their base?
The first few pylons you drop at an expansion require a little thought, and in conjunction with the warp in changes it seems like gateways are getting spread out more than they used to be.
Will Protoss prioritize placing pylons around their minerals line, or infrastructure?
I think it's pretty sloppy to not have a pylon in each mineral line by the time you're taking a third.
Is photon overcharge too good against smaller packs of units?
Again, that depends on what you want PO to accomplish. If it's about freeing Protoss to patrol the map with mobile units like the other races do, then no, I think it's doing a good job of that. If it's about giving a turtly Protoss a bit of a defensive edge early on then it's too good. The proof is in the pudding though, if Protoss moves out and plays exciting starcraft it's good. If they end up plastered to their bases until they're maxed then I don't like it.
Do you think there is enough room to maneuver around photon overcharge in its current state?
Depends on how well placed the pylons are and how much energy the Protoss is willing to blow. For small to medium engagements, if a Protoss doesn't want you up a ramp etc they can stop you for a while.
Do you think photon overcharge is in a better state in LotV than in HotS?
Yes, in the sense that I think it's doing a better job of accomplishing what it was supposed to accomplish in the first place, which is allowing Protoss to be active on the map.
I think the adept and the disruptor also contribute to that, and how big of a role each piece plays is hard to say. But as long as we're seeing Protoss play mobile and active styles, I think we should be very, very wary of fucking with the conditions that allowed for that to happen.
Edit: spelling/clarity
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I probably shouldn't really comment on this because I've been using PO incredibly abusively after I saw Hitman using it on his stream.
Build 2 Pylons behind their mineral line with scouting Probe, float MSC over, shut down mining on their mineral line for several minutes... until they have enough to defeat 2 Pylons and the MSC. Fly the MSC away before it dies, and you've just spent 200 minerals to deny tons of mining time and killed a bunch of units too.
Dats how you win.
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On December 08 2015 09:54 BronzeKnee wrote:
I probably shouldn't really comment on this because I've been using PO incredibly abusively after I saw Hitman using it on his stream.
Build 2 Pylons behind their mineral line with scouting Probe, float MSC over, shut down mining on their mineral line for several minutes... until they have enough to defeat 2 Pylons and the MSC. Fly the MSC away before it dies, and you've just spent 200 minerals to deny tons of mining time and killed a bunch of units too.
Dats how you win.
Does this work in all match ups? My gut tells me it comes out too late for this to work but maybe I'm wrong haha
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Its much too hard for terran to cheese protoss because of it.
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IMHO,
Photon Overcharge is a band-aid mechanic that needs to get rid of. It was dumb enough in HOTS, and even more over powered in LOTV. Just the fact that protoss can get a cheap tier 1 flying spell casting unit that has over powered spells like Photon Overcharge, Recall, is just dumb. It's too easy to stop cheeses for pretty much for free at zero risk. Zero risk meaning, they never really over-prepare for something, such as making 5-8 cannons to stop a push that they think it's gonna come, with photon overcharge, they never have to make that many and still safe vs any type of push. It's way too good and i refuse to buy the game until they delete it or change it.
A uncheesable race isn't the answer.
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EPT
