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On October 05 2015 10:48 Sickel1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 10:14 DilemaH wrote:On October 05 2015 09:24 GinDo wrote:Lurker is fine. You just can't 1A across the map without looking at your army. Kinda like in WOL before HOTS gave us Widow Mines w/ Instant Burrow  People just need to slow down, and move around. Remember that Lurkers can only attack when burrowed so attack from another angle. Lurkers are also immobile, so drop around. Lurkers are exciting, I hope they don't get nerfed. I will say though the SC2 Lurker effects are underwhelming. I agree that the lurker is a great addition to the game. What people don't like is how you can easily walk up and burrow the lurker offensively. The proposed nerfs by Jinjin and I are focused on keeping it as a zone-control unit, andnot something you can throw into a deathball and use offensively. I think you are playing against them incorrectly. Offensive burrowing was a thing in BW as well, but it was never an issue.
It was an issue until people learned how to deal with it
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dragoons + storm destroyed lurkers clumped up in broodwar though, no such thing in SC2, the lurker range is the biggest difference here, and well damage against stalkers is kinda ridiculous
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On October 05 2015 10:58 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 10:14 DilemaH wrote:On October 05 2015 09:24 GinDo wrote:Lurker is fine. You just can't 1A across the map without looking at your army. Kinda like in WOL before HOTS gave us Widow Mines w/ Instant Burrow People just need to slow down, and move around. Remember that Lurkers can only attack when burrowed so attack from another angle. Lurkers are also immobile, so drop around. Lurkers are exciting, I hope they don't get nerfed. I will say though the SC2 Lurker effects are underwhelming. I agree that the lurker is a great addition to the game. What people don't like is how you can easily walk up and burrow the lurker offensively. The proposed nerfs by Jinjin and I are focused on keeping it as a zone-control unit, andnot something you can throw into a deathball and use offensively. Well alot of Terran have gotten used to not using many tanks. Trust me you can't Offensive burrow without Vipers against a huge siege line with Marines and medics.
>medics
But I'll take your word for it. But against protoss, from what I've heard, its much more difficult for them to deal with, which makes sense (Zerg has ravagers so its fine there). And besides, the changes shouldn't be a big nerf at all, since they only hurt the lurkers if used super-aggressively. Burrow time, off-creep movespeed and hp nerf. All make it worse to use aggressively, and only slightly hurt it on defense or when already controlling a position.
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On October 05 2015 05:44 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe. Going for a lurker-based style vs terran is very expensive. Vs mech, they're obviously pretty bad since they're too expensive, the enemy always has tanks available, and theres just better units to get (ie ravager, broodlord, ultra etc). Against bio, think of it this way: A hydra den costs 100/100. The lurker den costs 50/100. The lurker itself costs a total of 150/150. Thats a LOT of gas zerg has to invest into lurkers. And besides: lurkers take EXTREMELY long to make: you need the hydra den, the lurker den morph, the hydralisk and then the lurker morph. The lurker den and lurkers themselves take extremely long to morph. This gives terran (and every race) a large window where zerg is extremely vulnerable to attacks, which means they'll have no: banelings, upgrades, economy, and no spire going up (and bio-mine should be attacking by now). Plus, a quick lurker den means they'll have no mutalisks, and the general counter to lurkers is to attack where they aren't (IE drops). So you can doom drop their main (if you somehow let them get to lurker tech without dying) and just about everywhere for free. And if zerg invests into lurkers once they're stabilized, they're delaying their super-powerful hive-tech transition (since we all know how damn good ultras are). And by the time they have lurkers out, you should know because you'd have dropped them by then, so you can start siege tank/liberator production. Liberator would probably be better, since their gas would be in lurkers, so you would just dominate the sky. I can understand that they're extremely hard to push into, but they just seem so damn easy to punish and play around as terran if you do it right. And this is given they're going for a ling/bane/muta style. If they're going roaches/hydras, you should already have tank production started by then. tl;dr the lurker might be good, but there seems like so many holes that open up if zerg invests into lurkers against bio. They delay upgrades, their spire, their hive-tech, and have few banelings to hold off the early pushes. A few libs could just come in to siege and wrest air control against the low muta count while the bio goes to town on the low baneling count.
I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I'd probably push back on your style of saying it though. It's so tempting to endlessly list conditions that support whatever claim you're trying to make when theorycrafting. I'm guilty of this too, especially when me and my Archon partner are discussing the game.
Basically, the fallacy goes something like this: when they do this thing, we should try that thing. Yeah, but we can't do that thing because then they can just do this other thing.
Yeah, well that's the fucking game, lol. It's not played in a vacuum, it's entirely dependent on the game state when you're making the decisions.
On October 05 2015 06:44 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe. Thats actually bullshit, most of the times you are able to overpower Lurker with bio, when you havent done that with Tanks already. You are also allowed to abuse the fact that there is not enough anti air against drops available. There is a good reason why there arent any lurker plays against bio in pro games. Playing with Lurker is nothing but awkward and disappointing
Lol. Whoa there, Tiger. I'm not saying it's the only way to deal with Lurkers. I was sharing our experience in Archon mode. Calm down.
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On October 06 2015 00:32 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 05:44 DilemaH wrote:On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe. Going for a lurker-based style vs terran is very expensive. Vs mech, they're obviously pretty bad since they're too expensive, the enemy always has tanks available, and theres just better units to get (ie ravager, broodlord, ultra etc). Against bio, think of it this way: A hydra den costs 100/100. The lurker den costs 50/100. The lurker itself costs a total of 150/150. Thats a LOT of gas zerg has to invest into lurkers. And besides: lurkers take EXTREMELY long to make: you need the hydra den, the lurker den morph, the hydralisk and then the lurker morph. The lurker den and lurkers themselves take extremely long to morph. This gives terran (and every race) a large window where zerg is extremely vulnerable to attacks, which means they'll have no: banelings, upgrades, economy, and no spire going up (and bio-mine should be attacking by now). Plus, a quick lurker den means they'll have no mutalisks, and the general counter to lurkers is to attack where they aren't (IE drops). So you can doom drop their main (if you somehow let them get to lurker tech without dying) and just about everywhere for free. And if zerg invests into lurkers once they're stabilized, they're delaying their super-powerful hive-tech transition (since we all know how damn good ultras are). And by the time they have lurkers out, you should know because you'd have dropped them by then, so you can start siege tank/liberator production. Liberator would probably be better, since their gas would be in lurkers, so you would just dominate the sky. I can understand that they're extremely hard to push into, but they just seem so damn easy to punish and play around as terran if you do it right. And this is given they're going for a ling/bane/muta style. If they're going roaches/hydras, you should already have tank production started by then. tl;dr the lurker might be good, but there seems like so many holes that open up if zerg invests into lurkers against bio. They delay upgrades, their spire, their hive-tech, and have few banelings to hold off the early pushes. A few libs could just come in to siege and wrest air control against the low muta count while the bio goes to town on the low baneling count. I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I'd probably push back on your style of saying it though. It's so tempting to endlessly list conditions that support whatever claim you're trying to make when theorycrafting. I'm guilty of this too, especially when me and my Archon partner are discussing the game. Basically, the fallacy goes something like this: when they do this thing, we should try that thing. Yeah, but we can't do that thing because then they can just do this other thing. Yeah, well that's the fucking game, lol. It's not played in a vacuum, it's entirely dependent on the game state when you're making the decisions. Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 06:44 Heyjoray wrote:On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe. Thats actually bullshit, most of the times you are able to overpower Lurker with bio, when you havent done that with Tanks already. You are also allowed to abuse the fact that there is not enough anti air against drops available. There is a good reason why there arent any lurker plays against bio in pro games. Playing with Lurker is nothing but awkward and disappointing Lol. Whoa there, Tiger. I'm not saying it's the only way to deal with Lurkers. I was sharing our experience in Archon mode. Calm down.
Your archon experience is wrong. Thats the problem: You dont know how to play against these kind of things, so you shouldnt be allowed to judge something. X amount of people cry about that unit, even so its quite alright. And thats simply wrong feedback
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I hope the tank can be as good at controlling space as a lurker!
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On October 05 2015 10:59 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 10:48 Sickel1 wrote:On October 05 2015 10:14 DilemaH wrote:On October 05 2015 09:24 GinDo wrote:Lurker is fine. You just can't 1A across the map without looking at your army. Kinda like in WOL before HOTS gave us Widow Mines w/ Instant Burrow People just need to slow down, and move around. Remember that Lurkers can only attack when burrowed so attack from another angle. Lurkers are also immobile, so drop around. Lurkers are exciting, I hope they don't get nerfed. I will say though the SC2 Lurker effects are underwhelming. I agree that the lurker is a great addition to the game. What people don't like is how you can easily walk up and burrow the lurker offensively. The proposed nerfs by Jinjin and I are focused on keeping it as a zone-control unit, andnot something you can throw into a deathball and use offensively. I think you are playing against them incorrectly. Offensive burrowing was a thing in BW as well, but it was never an issue. It was an issue until people learned how to deal with it
Which would mean it's not an actual issue :C a thread calling for a nerf is unnecessary if there is a solution to it inherently.
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On October 06 2015 00:32 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 05:44 DilemaH wrote:On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe. Going for a lurker-based style vs terran is very expensive. Vs mech, they're obviously pretty bad since they're too expensive, the enemy always has tanks available, and theres just better units to get (ie ravager, broodlord, ultra etc). Against bio, think of it this way: A hydra den costs 100/100. The lurker den costs 50/100. The lurker itself costs a total of 150/150. Thats a LOT of gas zerg has to invest into lurkers. And besides: lurkers take EXTREMELY long to make: you need the hydra den, the lurker den morph, the hydralisk and then the lurker morph. The lurker den and lurkers themselves take extremely long to morph. This gives terran (and every race) a large window where zerg is extremely vulnerable to attacks, which means they'll have no: banelings, upgrades, economy, and no spire going up (and bio-mine should be attacking by now). Plus, a quick lurker den means they'll have no mutalisks, and the general counter to lurkers is to attack where they aren't (IE drops). So you can doom drop their main (if you somehow let them get to lurker tech without dying) and just about everywhere for free. And if zerg invests into lurkers once they're stabilized, they're delaying their super-powerful hive-tech transition (since we all know how damn good ultras are). And by the time they have lurkers out, you should know because you'd have dropped them by then, so you can start siege tank/liberator production. Liberator would probably be better, since their gas would be in lurkers, so you would just dominate the sky. I can understand that they're extremely hard to push into, but they just seem so damn easy to punish and play around as terran if you do it right. And this is given they're going for a ling/bane/muta style. If they're going roaches/hydras, you should already have tank production started by then. tl;dr the lurker might be good, but there seems like so many holes that open up if zerg invests into lurkers against bio. They delay upgrades, their spire, their hive-tech, and have few banelings to hold off the early pushes. A few libs could just come in to siege and wrest air control against the low muta count while the bio goes to town on the low baneling count. I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I'd probably push back on your style of saying it though. It's so tempting to endlessly list conditions that support whatever claim you're trying to make when theorycrafting. I'm guilty of this too, especially when me and my Archon partner are discussing the game. Basically, the fallacy goes something like this: when they do this thing, we should try that thing. Yeah, but we can't do that thing because then they can just do this other thing. Yeah, well that's the fucking game, lol. It's not played in a vacuum, it's entirely dependent on the game state when you're making the decisions. Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 06:44 Heyjoray wrote:On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe. Thats actually bullshit, most of the times you are able to overpower Lurker with bio, when you havent done that with Tanks already. You are also allowed to abuse the fact that there is not enough anti air against drops available. There is a good reason why there arent any lurker plays against bio in pro games. Playing with Lurker is nothing but awkward and disappointing Lol. Whoa there, Tiger. I'm not saying it's the only way to deal with Lurkers. I was sharing our experience in Archon mode. Calm down.
But all of his "endlessly listed conditions" are all the reasons why the Lurker is in fact not too strong, which I believe is the entire discussion of the thread? O_o
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EPT
