EPTI.E. It can blow them up when revealed..... or it can make the hydra's and roach's run away then you can go in with your observer and kill them.
Can this work though???
Lurker bit too strong? - Page 3
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MiniFotToss
China2430 Posts
I.E. It can blow them up when revealed..... or it can make the hydra's and roach's run away then you can go in with your observer and kill them. Can this work though??? | ||
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MyrionSC
Denmark140 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On September 29 2015 04:45 MiniFotToss wrote: Can't disruptors handle them nicely? I.E. It can blow them up when revealed..... or it can make the hydra's and roach's run away then you can go in with your observer and kill them. Can this work though??? Yes they can, the Lurker is suffering from the "widow mine effect" in the sense that it is forcing a completely new level of micro and unit control that Protoss is not used to so there is som struggle, just like how Zerg had to up their micro game against Terran with the introduction of the mine. Zerg either, with super prisms being as strong as they are I think the skill cap on ZvP for both races got raised pretty dramatically. Disruptors handle them very nicely and it also makes Templars ferociously strong in the late game, they are undoubtedly the better choice, Disruptors need to get rid of the controllable projectile thing and get it over with and make it go full Reaver. Let it just shoot the damn thing it's too much for Protoss players to do in big fights I think. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On September 29 2015 05:00 jpg06051992 wrote: Disruptors handle them very nicely and it also makes Templars ferociously strong in the late game, they are undoubtedly the better choice, Disruptors need to get rid of the controllable projectile thing and get it over with and make it go full Reaver. Let it just shoot the damn thing it's too much for Protoss players to do in big fights I think. I don't like the suggestion to replace the disruptor with the reaver, but I would be totally down for replacing the colossus with the reaver. The disruptor has effects on the game which the reaver never will have. The burst aoe of the disruptor forces micro out of the opponent, whereas the reaver's aoe can just be dealt with because of how often it attackes making it (theoretically) futile to micro against (there still is reason to micro against it ofc, just not as much as the disruptor). The colossus, however, is a bit of a lost cause when it comes to micro, and the reaver is cooler and has far more potential. The effect the disruptor has on roach/hydra off-creep will probably not be matched by a reaver, giving protoss this odd off-creep advantage since its much harder for zerg to split without the movementspeed buff. The reaver can function as a consistent source of damage, whereas the disruptor can do what its doing now. The disruptor has such positive effects on the game that removing it would be a tragedy. Colossus can disappear for all I care. Its lame after all. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
Protoss lacks a relatively bulky detector which makes these engagements super hard. Terran has scans which is invulnerable detection. In ZvT, zergs have to micro very well against widow mines to win, but detection is virtually never the problem due to overseers being decently tanky, and of course, zergs can force early mine detonations before the actual engagement. Against lurkers for Protoss, you have to micro and engage well (our AoE is manual now), while also trying to keep these tiny observers alive which essentially die instantly if they are attacked. If you keep your observers in a safe position, a lot of the time they can't see a lot of lurkers cos they have such huge range. I don't mind that lurkers are really hard to attack into. That makes total sense. But lurkers are really good offensively, and actually don't have major issues in terms of mobility and fragileness that the old swarm hosts had. I have no doubt we'll get better at playing against lurkers in the months to come, but zergs will improve at using them too. I guess it's time to starting using their oracle detection against lurkers. IMO, the oracle as a detector is even less reliable than it was in HotS, but it's new detection in LotV is actually the most ideal one we have against lurkers. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
The biggest problem is that lurkers in conjunction with detection denial (sniping obs) prevents Protoss players from ever doing anything about them, ever. They are so strong that Protoss players are literally forced into going sky every single game (and will be - and not by choice - when the adept gets toned down). Lurkers should be strong, though. I think it's fun that Zerg finally gets a unit that can stand on its own (even if it is 3 supply). The problem is that they are so late in the tech tree... Also, hydras suck. Really bad. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Edit: New revelation also detects and has 9 range. Imho its the most op spell in the game  | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On September 29 2015 11:48 GinDo wrote: People keep talking storm, but what about Oracle Revelation? Also isn't Storm a good option? Edit: New revelation also detects and has 9 range. Imho its the most op spell in the game I don't think storm is that great. The lurker in SC2 is MUCH different than the BW in the sense that a single one is more valuable and you wont be hitting many anyways. Also, in BW lurkers were not as powerful and you can soften them up with storms then move in with the rest of your forces. If you move in against lurkers you just die. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10671 Posts
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Dratini25
10 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 28 2015 20:03 Sam94 wrote: Hi, What does everyone think about lurkers as of now in LOTV? Personally i think they are a bit too strong because of there 9 range. Unless you have skytoss in an engagment with lurkers you are not going to win a fight because they just completely destroy ground units. What do you guys think? Thanks Why do you think they weren't in WoL or HotS to begin with? Let alone rebus? Thank you UI. In either case, it's more fun when you have units that can be powerful. Not like BW didn't have it's fair share of units that could hold their own. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On October 02 2015 19:06 Dratini25 wrote: Blizzard should nerf the lurkers by making the lurkers burrow time longer, and cant just dive into the ground then attacking because thats really op, and they should nerf the range to i think 7 is fair. considering their attack speed and dmg is already crazy high WITH splash that can hit up to atleast what 5 different units? so increasing their burrow time then time after that to attack and nerfing the range to 7 instead of 9 also the swarmhosts are getting buffed again, so the lurkers NEED this nerf to balance zerg out Welcome to teamliquid. Maybe you can take a short break in your IMBA crusade to explain a bit better exactly where you are coming from? Yes, we know the stats of the lurker, but why do these stats not fit into the current gameplay? Can you give an argument that takes all the context, timing, unit compositions, potential counters etc into account? Instead of going just "attack speed and damage crazy high, NERF!!!" that you could say about any unit if you felt like. Maybe even give some examples from high level play where these in-context properties of the lurker are highlighted? Good luck.  | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
Most of my games end up in similar cases of old swarmhost. I get a lot of tanks and turret and the map gets separated in two. The thing is if i don't get those tank and play more mobile ( bio / raven ) i get shrekt because if i don't pay attention for a second everything dies.Also i don't wanna use 2 raven to kill one lurker , it feels unfair. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
Liberator, tanks and disruptor seem also to work fine. But the best way is really to attack somewhere else. You need at least 4+ lurkers to be effective vs protoss and 3+ lurkers vs terran which makes it hard to defend every place at once. Every race has the required tools to deal with lurker contains and with lurker lines. Lurkers are the only answer zerg has to control space. We should not weaken it and make it useless. I would say we wait until we have more information. We will only get good data once kespa players start to play lotv. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:34 shid0x wrote: As a Terran i feel kind of lost against lurkers... Most of my games end up in similar cases of old swarmhost. I get a lot of tanks and turret and the map gets separated in two. The thing is if i don't get those tank and play more mobile ( bio / raven ) i get shrekt because if i don't pay attention for a second everything dies.Also i don't wanna use 2 raven to kill one lurker , it feels unfair. For a second is exaggerated, isnt it? Lurkers take more time to place it close to your army than a second. If you walk into lurker lines its the same as walking into tank lines. Thats just a mistake and not the fault of lurkers. EDIT: I also saw people winning with marauder marin medivac vs lurker lines. In my experience its only a matter of skill and micro. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On September 28 2015 21:01 Ramiz1989 wrote: If it really works that way, then that is a bug that should be fixed. That is how it seems to work, at least to a greater extent than in BW | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:42 todespolka wrote: For a second is exaggerated, isnt it? Lurkers take more time to place it close to your army than a second. If you walk into lurker lines its the same as walking into tank lines. Thats just a mistake and not the fault of lurkers. EDIT: I also saw people winning with marauder marin medivac vs lurker lines. In my experience its only a matter of skill and micro. Well most of the time there's hydra along with Lurker so good luck with that. Even if there wasn't it would still require a lot of micro on the Terran side for any effort in the zerg one. which mean falling behind on macro and not being able to shut down any eventual harass. Maybe somehow giving the lurker more control would even things out ( cut the auto attack or something ) | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
If you waste your disruptor shots on them the Zerg just A-moves his Hydras at you because you have no splash for 40+ seconds. Lurkers are strong because they outrange everything Protoss has on the ground except Colossi and if you're making Colossi you're losing anyway because they're pretty bad now. Storm is a good option but you have *VERY little wiggle room on the range. I feel like at 8 range Lurkers would still accomplish the same thing but not necessarily force air like they do now. | ||
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TorkkSC
29 Posts
Storm is a good option but you have *VERY little wiggle room on the range. I feel like at 8 range Lurkers would still accomplish the same thing but not necessarily force air like they do now. I don't think range is much of an issue. I think having equal range with Disruptors and Storm is fine, it makes positioning that much more important. I do believe Lurkers have too much health. It takes an eternity to kill one. 2 Disruptor shots, 3 Storms, and 8 Colossus shots are the numbers for killing a Lurker. And if they're spread well, these things are almost impossible to do in a reasonable amount of time. While I think 2 Disruptor shots for killing a Lurker is fine, they should also take only up to 2 Storms since that would take 8 seconds at most to kill, which is still a decent amount of time where your high templar are exposed in the front and your army is in the back, so the Zerg has a window of opportunity to counter micro and snipe the High Templar while not making it an impossibly long process to break a Lurker siege. | ||
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