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I think the big issue here is that Lurker can burrow quite fast, takes them less than 2 seconds to burrow and start attacking. With this in mind, they can be quite overpowered when massed given their high HP (200) if im not mistaken. Unlike siege tanks who are vulnerable while transforming into siege mode and has a range penalty when units come too close, Lurkers are in very little risk of dying while in the middle of burrowing / unburrowing. Not to mention they become instantly invisible once the burrow animation completes. 1 salvo from 4-5 lurkers who successfully burrowed can obliterate an enemy ground army.
One good nerf for this would be to increase their burrowing time, 4 seconds would be fine, the same amount of time a tank / liberator takes to get up to siege mode. This gives ample time for the opposing army to get out of their range, the same thing you would do when you see tanks beginning to go into siege mode. Keep in mind they are zoning units, so when they got your back against a wall, its over for you, this is how a siege unit should work.
From my experience in game (platinum scrub here), peeps make 10-12 lurkers, + some roaches to soak, charge in, mass burrow, and every ground unit you have is grossly out ranged. Just my 2 cents.
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I wish you couldn't attack straight into sieged tanks T.T . But well Terran now has flying super fast siege tanks that do that job.
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I don't feel that lurkers are overpowered at all. Top streamers certainly haven't been having trouble.
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They are very strong, especially vs. a moved bio and gateway armies, but they have critical weakneses that if you don't exploit then well, your just not Protoss vs. Lurkering very well.
1st weakenss is that they are very expensive gas wise to tech up to, it's very obvious and easy to scout when the Den is morphing, and you can almost always outright kill a Zerg player that is getting ahead of himself and teching to them too rapidly. You need to identify the transition and prepare, if you get caught flat footed well then ya, your gonna get stomped.
2nd weakness is the same as the tank, very immobile, there is zero reason to not have at least one Super Prism on the field to punish this (Hell there is hardly a reason at all not to have one floating around in probably every match up) if you see heavy Lurker play you should immediately be multi prong attacking and taxing your Zerg opponents multitask and lack of mobility.
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I wish you couldn't attack straight into sieged tanks T.T . But well Terran now has flying super fast siege tanks that do that job.
You could drop over tanks and friendly fire would kill most of them. You can't do this to lurkers.
Liberator AG mode is so easy to avoid for 2 reasons:
1. They got a long transform time.
2. They got a big ass circle on the ground that you could see from a mile away. Lurkers don't have giveaways like this.-
-Also liberators do single target damage, not splash. so cheap massable units like marines can act as a soft counter to this.
Lurkers on the other hand, walk up to you, burrow then obliterate all your marines.
anyway, my point is just very simple. Make the lurker fit into a more defensive, siege type role. Rather than a Bruteforce, in your face unit that can walk up to you and end the game in an instant. Maybe in higher leagues, they arent a problem, but for lower leagues like me, people can just mass them and walk up to you and straight up kill everything you have.
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On September 28 2015 21:52 Beliskner wrote:
I think most people would agree, that contrary to popular belief, your not suppose to be able to engage into already burrowed lurkers. A lot of people will engage in and be like 'Oh that's OP' as they melt your army before you kill them.
The need to keep the damage high so you literally can't walk across them and kill them.
But I'm with the others, they don't seem able to be microd against, or at least as soon as you see spikes or hear the sound your army receives a lot of damage, you need at least a decent warning that they're there, or the ability to dodge around spikes in low numbers.
If only Siege Tanks worked that way too...
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The lurker is very strong, and requires specific responses from both Terran and Protoss.
Lurkers do massive line-AOE damage, while invisible, at a massive 9-range (radial) after upgraded. They can outrange all static defense, including upgraded Planetary Fortress. They do not cause friendly fire damage (Zerg is completely free of friendly fire, I believe).
Can you imagine the tears if this unit had any of the downsides typical to Terran? Imagine if there was an on-screen warning, "hey, are you sure you want to walk into this unit's range?" Or, "Hey, see this little line, you've been targeted. Better walk away slowly before you take damage!" Or, "oh shit, noooooo! My AOE unit just accidentally shelled my entire army. Now I lose the battle." I'm sure as everyone was reading this it was almost laughable how unthinkable it was. Yet the Ghost (Snipe and Nuke), Widow Mine, Siege Tank, Raven (Hunter Seeker), and Liberator all have one or all of these major weakness attributes.
With all that said, I don't think I've seen enough Lurker play at the highest levels for anything to appear broken, or OP. They are strong. Super strong! But probably not too strong. If anything, because of how impossible it is to battle creep right now, this might be indirectly making them more difficult to deal with.
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On September 29 2015 02:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
The lurker is very strong, and requires specific responses from both Terran and Protoss.
Lurkers do massive line-AOE damage, while invisible, at a massive 9-range (radial) after upgraded. They can outrange all static defense, including upgraded Planetary Fortress. They do not cause friendly fire damage (Zerg is completely free of friendly fire, I believe).
Can you imagine the tears if this unit had any of the downsides typical to Terran? Imagine if there was an on-screen warning, "hey, are you sure you want to walk into this unit's range?" Or, "Hey, see this little line, you've been targeted. Better walk away slowly before you take damage!" Or, "oh shit, noooooo! My AOE unit just accidentally shelled my entire army. Now I lose the battle." I'm sure as everyone was reading this it was almost laughable how unthinkable it was. Yet the Ghost (Snipe and Nuke), Widow Mine, Siege Tank, Raven (Hunter Seeker), and Liberator all have one or all of these major weakness attributes.
With all that said, I don't think I've seen enough Lurker play at the highest levels for anything to appear broken, or OP. They are strong. Super strong! But probably not too strong. If anything, because of how impossible it is to battle creep right now, this might be indirectly making them more difficult to deal with.
How was ZLS banned for massive racial bias in all discussion threads and not you?
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On September 29 2015 02:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
The lurker is very strong, and requires specific responses from both Terran and Protoss.
Lurkers do massive line-AOE damage, while invisible, at a massive 9-range (radial) after upgraded. They can outrange all static defense, including upgraded Planetary Fortress. They do not cause friendly fire damage (Zerg is completely free of friendly fire, I believe).
Can you imagine the tears if this unit had any of the downsides typical to Terran? Imagine if there was an on-screen warning, "hey, are you sure you want to walk into this unit's range?" Or, "Hey, see this little line, you've been targeted. Better walk away slowly before you take damage!" Or, "oh shit, noooooo! My AOE unit just accidentally shelled my entire army. Now I lose the battle." I'm sure as everyone was reading this it was almost laughable how unthinkable it was. Yet the Ghost (Snipe and Nuke), Widow Mine, Siege Tank, Raven (Hunter Seeker), and Liberator all have one or all of these major weakness attributes.
With all that said, I don't think I've seen enough Lurker play at the highest levels for anything to appear broken, or OP. They are strong. Super strong! But probably not too strong. If anything, because of how impossible it is to battle creep right now, this might be indirectly making them more difficult to deal with.
Theres an unspoken concept called "balance/design by comparison", and its generally bad idea. Just because one race has something, doesn't mean another should. I could go into examples, but theres so many that I wont. With that said, imagine how terrible lurkers would be with friendly fire. The reason tanks are fine despite the splash is because tanks can fire over units, whereas the lurker fires through units. If lurkers attacked like siege tanks, then friendly splash would...well...It would actually still be terrible. Imagine zerglings. Or, hey, what if banelings had friendly fire? Why? Because, by your logic, all races should have friendly fire because its a common theme with terran units! Seriously, imagine how unplayably hard zerg would be. Managing banelings against bio is (surprisingly) hard enough: imagine having to manually detonate them in optimal places so that your entire army wouldn't die to them.
Zerg does in fact have 1 friendly fire source, being the ravager (this is it though). Protoss has Psi-storm and disruptors. The only time balance by comparison is viable is for essential things: each race should have a way to control space, harass, hold early attacks, scale into the lategame etc etc. Some of these essential factors, however, can be removed or amplified for certain races to create some interesting things.
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On September 28 2015 22:17 Sam94 wrote:
Yeah i agree with everyone is saying. The problem i believe (my own opinion) is that ZVP meta at the moment is usually ground fights which make for good action personally. However when lurkers come out it seems like ground armies are literally worthless because as we all agree lurkers just kill them at an extremely fast rate. Going sky toss every time vs a zerg in a macro game seems quite boring and annoying to play.
Also a problem I've faced on ladder is when I'm caught out of position with lurkers the game is 99% over because i cannot engage the lurker without losing my whole army and teching to air by that time isn't possible. My question is that are we now just going to see zvp become a sky toss fest because if so this is going to be a boring matchup or can blizzard do something to help fix/adjust the unit slightly so that ground can also work vs the lurker?
Then u probably never used disruptors before...
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On September 29 2015 02:42 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 02:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
The lurker is very strong, and requires specific responses from both Terran and Protoss.
Lurkers do massive line-AOE damage, while invisible, at a massive 9-range (radial) after upgraded. They can outrange all static defense, including upgraded Planetary Fortress. They do not cause friendly fire damage (Zerg is completely free of friendly fire, I believe).
Can you imagine the tears if this unit had any of the downsides typical to Terran? Imagine if there was an on-screen warning, "hey, are you sure you want to walk into this unit's range?" Or, "Hey, see this little line, you've been targeted. Better walk away slowly before you take damage!" Or, "oh shit, noooooo! My AOE unit just accidentally shelled my entire army. Now I lose the battle." I'm sure as everyone was reading this it was almost laughable how unthinkable it was. Yet the Ghost (Snipe and Nuke), Widow Mine, Siege Tank, Raven (Hunter Seeker), and Liberator all have one or all of these major weakness attributes.
With all that said, I don't think I've seen enough Lurker play at the highest levels for anything to appear broken, or OP. They are strong. Super strong! But probably not too strong. If anything, because of how impossible it is to battle creep right now, this might be indirectly making them more difficult to deal with. Theres an unspoken concept called "balance/design by comparison", and its generally bad idea. Just because one race has something, doesn't mean another should. I could go into examples, but theres so many that I wont. With that said, imagine how terrible lurkers would be with friendly fire. The reason tanks are fine despite the splash is because tanks can fire over units, whereas the lurker fires through units. If lurkers attacked like siege tanks, then friendly splash would...well...It would actually still be terrible. Imagine zerglings. Or, hey, what if banelings had friendly fire? Why? Because, by your logic, all races should have friendly fire because its a common theme with terran units! Seriously, imagine how unplayably hard zerg would be. Managing banelings against bio is (surprisingly) hard enough: imagine having to manually detonate them in optimal places so that your entire army wouldn't die to them. Zerg does in fact have 1 friendly fire source, being the ravager (this is it though). Protoss has Psi-storm and disruptors. The only time balance by comparison is viable is for essential things: each race should have a way to control space, harass, hold early attacks, scale into the lategame etc etc. Some of these essential factors, however, can be removed or amplified for certain races to create some interesting things.
I didn't realize corrosive bile did friendly fire damage! It probably shouldn't, as I've always just assumed that Zerg biology allowed them immunity from their form of attacks. Same with Protoss, but utilizing their psychic communion. Terran, being the dumb humans, using brute-force technology, tend to kill themselves with their own explosive weaponry--a lot like real life!
On September 29 2015 02:30 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 02:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
The lurker is very strong, and requires specific responses from both Terran and Protoss.
Lurkers do massive line-AOE damage, while invisible, at a massive 9-range (radial) after upgraded. They can outrange all static defense, including upgraded Planetary Fortress. They do not cause friendly fire damage (Zerg is completely free of friendly fire, I believe).
Can you imagine the tears if this unit had any of the downsides typical to Terran? Imagine if there was an on-screen warning, "hey, are you sure you want to walk into this unit's range?" Or, "Hey, see this little line, you've been targeted. Better walk away slowly before you take damage!" Or, "oh shit, noooooo! My AOE unit just accidentally shelled my entire army. Now I lose the battle." I'm sure as everyone was reading this it was almost laughable how unthinkable it was. Yet the Ghost (Snipe and Nuke), Widow Mine, Siege Tank, Raven (Hunter Seeker), and Liberator all have one or all of these major weakness attributes.
With all that said, I don't think I've seen enough Lurker play at the highest levels for anything to appear broken, or OP. They are strong. Super strong! But probably not too strong. If anything, because of how impossible it is to battle creep right now, this might be indirectly making them more difficult to deal with. How was ZLS banned for massive racial bias in all discussion threads and not you?
Chill out, Ovid. So I'm having a little fun with this thread. Enough with the ZLS comparison, too. Please. I write from a Terran perspective, and that's fine. We may not agree often, and that's fine too. In all fairness though, I think you're confusing "bias" with "perspective". Go read some of my posts, or my OPs, if you haven't already. Even though we disagree on many solutions--and sometimes don't even agree on the problems--I think we can probably agree that I articulate my ideas in a logical and well-thought-out way, with respect to readability and formatting, attempting to uphold the quality standards of our community. So what if we disagree? That's part of a lively and robust debate.
I will gladly become an objective analyst if Blizzard wants to grant me access to their in-game metrics, benchmarking data, and put me on payroll. Until then, I will continue communicating with you all from my personal experiences : )
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They just need to make burrow maybe take 0.5-1 sec slower and Nerf its HP. Damage is fine.
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If anything lurker needs a buff to light units. As it stands its the only cost-effective AoE ground unit the zerg has with sustained damage, and yet it has arguably the most drawbacks when compared to other siege units, not to mention with how late the unit comes out and how much needs to be invested for it. So it should be something to be feared and respected when trying to engage head first into a lurker line like an idiot.
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On September 29 2015 03:16 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 02:42 DilemaH wrote:On September 29 2015 02:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
The lurker is very strong, and requires specific responses from both Terran and Protoss.
Lurkers do massive line-AOE damage, while invisible, at a massive 9-range (radial) after upgraded. They can outrange all static defense, including upgraded Planetary Fortress. They do not cause friendly fire damage (Zerg is completely free of friendly fire, I believe).
Can you imagine the tears if this unit had any of the downsides typical to Terran? Imagine if there was an on-screen warning, "hey, are you sure you want to walk into this unit's range?" Or, "Hey, see this little line, you've been targeted. Better walk away slowly before you take damage!" Or, "oh shit, noooooo! My AOE unit just accidentally shelled my entire army. Now I lose the battle." I'm sure as everyone was reading this it was almost laughable how unthinkable it was. Yet the Ghost (Snipe and Nuke), Widow Mine, Siege Tank, Raven (Hunter Seeker), and Liberator all have one or all of these major weakness attributes.
With all that said, I don't think I've seen enough Lurker play at the highest levels for anything to appear broken, or OP. They are strong. Super strong! But probably not too strong. If anything, because of how impossible it is to battle creep right now, this might be indirectly making them more difficult to deal with. Theres an unspoken concept called "balance/design by comparison", and its generally bad idea. Just because one race has something, doesn't mean another should. I could go into examples, but theres so many that I wont. With that said, imagine how terrible lurkers would be with friendly fire. The reason tanks are fine despite the splash is because tanks can fire over units, whereas the lurker fires through units. If lurkers attacked like siege tanks, then friendly splash would...well...It would actually still be terrible. Imagine zerglings. Or, hey, what if banelings had friendly fire? Why? Because, by your logic, all races should have friendly fire because its a common theme with terran units! Seriously, imagine how unplayably hard zerg would be. Managing banelings against bio is (surprisingly) hard enough: imagine having to manually detonate them in optimal places so that your entire army wouldn't die to them. Zerg does in fact have 1 friendly fire source, being the ravager (this is it though). Protoss has Psi-storm and disruptors. The only time balance by comparison is viable is for essential things: each race should have a way to control space, harass, hold early attacks, scale into the lategame etc etc. Some of these essential factors, however, can be removed or amplified for certain races to create some interesting things. I didn't realize corrosive bile did friendly fire damage! It probably shouldn't, as I've always just assumed that Zerg biology allowed them immunity from their form of attacks. Same with Protoss, but utilizing their psychic communion. Terran, being the dumb humans, using brute-force technology, tend to kill themselves with their own explosive weaponry-- a lot like real life!Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 02:30 Ovid wrote:On September 29 2015 02:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
The lurker is very strong, and requires specific responses from both Terran and Protoss.
Lurkers do massive line-AOE damage, while invisible, at a massive 9-range (radial) after upgraded. They can outrange all static defense, including upgraded Planetary Fortress. They do not cause friendly fire damage (Zerg is completely free of friendly fire, I believe).
Can you imagine the tears if this unit had any of the downsides typical to Terran? Imagine if there was an on-screen warning, "hey, are you sure you want to walk into this unit's range?" Or, "Hey, see this little line, you've been targeted. Better walk away slowly before you take damage!" Or, "oh shit, noooooo! My AOE unit just accidentally shelled my entire army. Now I lose the battle." I'm sure as everyone was reading this it was almost laughable how unthinkable it was. Yet the Ghost (Snipe and Nuke), Widow Mine, Siege Tank, Raven (Hunter Seeker), and Liberator all have one or all of these major weakness attributes.
With all that said, I don't think I've seen enough Lurker play at the highest levels for anything to appear broken, or OP. They are strong. Super strong! But probably not too strong. If anything, because of how impossible it is to battle creep right now, this might be indirectly making them more difficult to deal with. How was ZLS banned for massive racial bias in all discussion threads and not you? Chill out, Ovid. So I'm having a little fun with this thread. Enough with the ZLS comparison, too. Please. I write from a Terran perspective, and that's fine. We may not agree often, and that's fine too. In all fairness though, I think you're confusing "bias" with "perspective". Go read some of my posts, or my OPs, if you haven't already. Even though we disagree on many solutions--and sometimes don't even agree on the problems--I think we can probably agree that I articulate my ideas in a logical and well-thought-out way, with respect to readability and formatting, attempting to uphold the quality standards of our community. So what if we disagree? That's part of a lively and robust debate. I will gladly become an objective analyst if Blizzard wants to grant me access to their in-game metrics, benchmarking data, and put me on payroll. Until then, I will continue communicating with you all from my personal experiences : )
Why do people on the internet always tell me to chill, it's the internet, I'm not exactly investing any emotions into an ephemeral comment.
Bias; inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.
Perspective; a particular attitude towards or way of regarding something; a point of view.
Pretty sure I'm not confusing the two when talking about your posts, you are very Terran bias.
I would find it difficult to deny that you are more articulate in your approach than ZLS, but I believe he was banned because of his excessive bias and unrelenting posts about perceived problems, which would be unfair since you do exactly the same thing but just word and format it better.
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On September 29 2015 03:28 Energizer wrote:
If anything lurker needs a buff to light units. As it stands its the only cost-effective AoE ground unit the zerg has with sustained damage, and yet it has arguably the most drawbacks when compared to other siege units, not to mention with how late the unit comes out and how much needs to be invested for it. So it should be something to be feared and respected when trying to engage head first into a lurker line like an idiot.
I think its already feared and respected (link)
The lurker is probably the best siege/positional unit right now.
On September 29 2015 03:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
They just need to make burrow maybe take 0.5-1 sec slower and Nerf its HP. Damage is fine.
As long as it can't be 1-shot by disruptors: otherwise that would make things a bit too hard for zerg. 2-shot (as it is right now) is fine
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If the army battles weren't so messy, lurkers might be closer to fine in PvZ. The clumping combined with fat units (roaches, ravagers) and air units/overlords obscuring everything, you can barely pick out half of the burrowed lurkers. If you try some adept shade through/blink spread focus fire/immortal drop on top you will lose as P. Oracles almost need revelation to have a different obvious effect to point out burrowed units even better than currently.
Disruptors: You basically can only hit lurkers when you can see where they are... like when they are in the front not covered by other units (and revealed of course). Otherwise, you use a shot just to clear units out of the way for the attempt at seeing where they are. That's one really expensive option to see better, and doesn't get rid of air units blocking vision either. Queue up the next disruptor?
To me, this encourages the old deathball mass stalker/mass colossi/3-5 sentry because you can blink out of the spines and then the a-moveness of the colossi splashing and hitting everything is the only way you can clean out a clumped up mess like that. The trade often still goes to the Zerg side if Protoss isn't way ahead economy-wise in my albeit limited experience in that build vs build scenario.
So, Protoss air is about the only safe bet. Kind of sad. I would like the Protoss ground style to be more consistent.
To those saying lurkers = BW siege tank lines and should be as impenetrable as well as vulnerable to melee... no that doesn't add up, because flanking with a ton of zealots does absolutely not help clear out lurkers. I mean, I love lurkers in BW and want to love them in LotV, but in LotV they seem overwhelming. In BW psionic storm helped soften lurkers, Archons and dragoons where better vs them, siege tanks were better against them, even marines were better against them in some situations.
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On September 29 2015 03:34 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 03:28 Energizer wrote:
If anything lurker needs a buff to light units. As it stands its the only cost-effective AoE ground unit the zerg has with sustained damage, and yet it has arguably the most drawbacks when compared to other siege units, not to mention with how late the unit comes out and how much needs to be invested for it. So it should be something to be feared and respected when trying to engage head first into a lurker line like an idiot. I think its already feared and respected (link)The lurker is probably the best siege/positional unit right now. Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 03:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
They just need to make burrow maybe take 0.5-1 sec slower and Nerf its HP. Damage is fine. As long as it can't be 1-shot by disruptors: otherwise that would make things a bit too hard for zerg. 2-shot (as it is right now) is fine
130 or 140 HP I feel. Its way too tanky right now for what is supposed to be positonal unit.
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Feel like I don't have so much an issue of stopping lurkers as I do keeping my detection alive. It seems so easy to just snipe off all the detection and then you are in trouble.
Would love to see OBS speed faster and no upgrade needed. Of all the things in the game they haven't sped up that is the one that would probably help the most.
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Make burrow take longer, i think it's too short right now for how powerful it is. This will make it a little harder to use offensively.
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On September 29 2015 04:05 FLuE wrote:
Feel like I don't have so much an issue of stopping lurkers as I do keeping my detection alive. It seems so easy to just snipe off all the detection and then you are in trouble.
Would love to see OBS speed faster and no upgrade needed. Of all the things in the game they haven't sped up that is the one that would probably help the most.
Since the Raven is finally getting a movement speed buff, I can totally see Blizzard buffing the OBS' movement speed, and maybe changing its upgrade slot. I think this is going to be tough to lobby for though, as creep isn't as big of an issue in PvZ as it is TvZ, and the creep buff was the primary justification for the Raven movement speed buff.
Just a thought: maybe they intend you to use Oracle's envision ability?
I also having trouble keeping the Raven alive, especially if there is creep, and/or a lot of air supporting the lurkers. You do not want to be relying on scans versus Lurkers.
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EPT
