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On October 03 2015 00:17 TorkkSC wrote:Show nested quote +Storm is a good option but you have *VERY little wiggle room on the range. I feel like at 8 range Lurkers would still accomplish the same thing but not necessarily force air like they do now. I don't think range is much of an issue. I think having equal range with Disruptors and Storm is fine, it makes positioning that much more important. I do believe Lurkers have too much health. It takes an eternity to kill one. 2 Disruptor shots, 3 Storms, and 8 Colossus shots are the numbers for killing a Lurker. And if they're spread well, these things are almost impossible to do in a reasonable amount of time. While I think 2 Disruptor shots for killing a Lurker is fine, they should also take only up to 2 Storms since that would take 8 seconds at most to kill, which is still a decent amount of time where your high templar are exposed in the front and your army is in the back, so the Zerg has a window of opportunity to counter micro and snipe the High Templar while not making it an impossibly long process to break a Lurker siege.
Well, the issue is if they spread their lurkers then its 2 Disruptor shots per lurker. As Protoss you just can't have THAT many disruptors in your army. And like I mentioned earlier if you use up all your splash trying to kill the lurkers then the Hydras will just shred your army.
I think 9 range to 8 would be a good change because then you could engage with Colossus and force interaction with other Zerg units.
Of course, when the Adept nerf goes into effect none of this will matter because game will be totally broken again.
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The only thing I notice is how fast they can get into position. Granted, they have the burrow time so you can move away, but they still move pretty fast.
I've had an army of blink stalker sentry and just avoided lurker and pick one off as they burrow/unburrow to keep up.
It's like old siege tanks in TvZ. If 5 tanks get setup outside your base it's pretty much over. So, right now people notice that lurkers are getting into strong positions right away and it feels imba.
My suggestion: Slight movement speed decrease
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On October 03 2015 01:14 loft wrote:
The only thing I notice is how fast they can get into position. Granted, they have the burrow time so you can move away, but they still move pretty fast.
I've had an army of blink stalker sentry and just avoided lurker and pick one off as they burrow/unburrow to keep up.
It's like old siege tanks in TvZ. If 5 tanks get setup outside your base it's pretty much over. So, right now people notice that lurkers are getting into strong positions right away and it feels imba.
My suggestion: Slight movement speed decrease
Very slight nerfs could possibly be appropriate, perhaps a slight lowering of health.
The thing is, is that it's a space control unit that does it's job very well and we are used to the un loved by Blizzard siege tank.
Anytime a Protoss player a moves into Lurker lines, they get massacred, so what do they do at least when they play me? They spread out, they multi prong harass, I pretty much have to dedicate 1 Lurker to each expansion otherwise Super Prisms just annihilate it.
The key it to spread out and multi prong harass, they only attack in a straight line.
But my opinion is that they have too much health, even in ZvZ they can be a wee bit of an issue when there are tons of them burrowed.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Why is everyone acting like SEEING the lurkers is the problem? That's not really it..
Because GM zergs are building 10 overseers and spores around their lurkers and it's a huge pain in the ass to even think of hitting them without a tool like the carrier - because even if you can approach them, you probably can't reliably see them
Very slight nerfs could possibly be appropriate, perhaps a slight lowering of health.
I have no problem with lurker health, if you can hit them they die really fast
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I've found that Storms are very effective against them, as well as disruptors as others have said but disruptors take a while to end the contain. Consider getting faster HT if you see the enemy going hydra.
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I think lurkers need the following;
- decreased health
- decreased range -1 maybe?
- a slight burrow time? 1-2 seconds?
Lurkers feel very strong and almost win games if they come out and get in a good position. (which isn't always possible to stop) I feel the range on the lurker is too high and if you catch the Zerg out of position you can engage the lurker however because they basically burrow instantly it makes it hard to take advantage of the Zerg mistake.
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On October 05 2015 02:01 Sam94 wrote:
Lurkers feel very strong and almost win games if they come out and get in a good position. (which isn't always possible to stop) I feel the range on the lurker is too high and if you catch the Zerg out of position you can engage the lurker however because they basically burrow instantly it makes it hard to take advantage of the Zerg mistake.
Sounds familiar for some reason...
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 05 2015 02:05 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 02:01 Sam94 wrote:
Lurkers feel very strong and almost win games if they come out and get in a good position. (which isn't always possible to stop) I feel the range on the lurker is too high and if you catch the Zerg out of position you can engage the lurker however because they basically burrow instantly it makes it hard to take advantage of the Zerg mistake. Sounds familiar for some reason... + Show Spoiler +
Yeah, i wish Lurker were that good in LotV. Its sad to see how many times people simply overpower Lurker in ZvT and ZvP. Especially in ZvT. Them not dealing proper damage to Light units is a big problem. The morph armor is missing as well
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Even when I do agree that Lurkers may be a tad too strong atm, I don't think that a stat nerf is the way to go because they are in a spot where if they get nerfed then they are not really that useful, but I think that a change to the unit priority of the lurkers may be something necessary, because atm even if you manage to get your army on top of the lurkers your units will not attack them, but they will first attack other units like roaches, lings or hydras, because of this and the fact that it is extremely hard to target the lurkers themselves (your and the enemy units are on top of them) it makes attacking into them something very unreliable.
So yeah, imo a slight unit priority change may be all that the lurker needs (Same thing with widowmines!).
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The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe.
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On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe.
Going for a lurker-based style vs terran is very expensive. Vs mech, they're obviously pretty bad since they're too expensive, the enemy always has tanks available, and theres just better units to get (ie ravager, broodlord, ultra etc). Against bio, think of it this way:
A hydra den costs 100/100. The lurker den costs 50/100. The lurker itself costs a total of 150/150. Thats a LOT of gas zerg has to invest into lurkers. And besides: lurkers take EXTREMELY long to make: you need the hydra den, the lurker den morph, the hydralisk and then the lurker morph. The lurker den and lurkers themselves take extremely long to morph. This gives terran (and every race) a large window where zerg is extremely vulnerable to attacks, which means they'll have no: banelings, upgrades, economy, and no spire going up (and bio-mine should be attacking by now). Plus, a quick lurker den means they'll have no mutalisks, and the general counter to lurkers is to attack where they aren't (IE drops). So you can doom drop their main (if you somehow let them get to lurker tech without dying) and just about everywhere for free. And if zerg invests into lurkers once they're stabilized, they're delaying their super-powerful hive-tech transition (since we all know how damn good ultras are). And by the time they have lurkers out, you should know because you'd have dropped them by then, so you can start siege tank/liberator production. Liberator would probably be better, since their gas would be in lurkers, so you would just dominate the sky. I can understand that they're extremely hard to push into, but they just seem so damn easy to punish and play around as terran if you do it right.
And this is given they're going for a ling/bane/muta style. If they're going roaches/hydras, you should already have tank production started by then.
tl;dr the lurker might be good, but there seems like so many holes that open up if zerg invests into lurkers against bio. They delay upgrades, their spire, their hive-tech, and have few banelings to hold off the early pushes. A few libs could just come in to siege and wrest air control against the low muta count while the bio goes to town on the low baneling count.
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On October 05 2015 02:05 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 02:01 Sam94 wrote:
Lurkers feel very strong and almost win games if they come out and get in a good position. (which isn't always possible to stop) I feel the range on the lurker is too high and if you catch the Zerg out of position you can engage the lurker however because they basically burrow instantly it makes it hard to take advantage of the Zerg mistake. Sounds familiar for some reason... + Show Spoiler +
with that shitty micro i dont know how the zerg didnt kill everything to be fair
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On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe.
Thats actually bullshit, most of the times you are able to overpower Lurker with bio, when you havent done that with Tanks already. You are also allowed to abuse the fact that there is not enough anti air against drops available. There is a good reason why there arent any lurker plays against bio in pro games. Playing with Lurker is nothing but awkward and disappointing
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lowering its enormous health pool and increasing is burrow time would make it fine I believe.
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On October 05 2015 08:27 jinjin5000 wrote:
lowering its enormous health pool and increasing is burrow time would make it fine I believe.
Holy, I didn't realize it was that large. It should be something like 165, so it doesn't get one-shot by disruptors, but can still be focused down. at 165, it would be left with 20 hp after a disruptor shot, so it can be pulled back. I also totally agree with the burrow nerf: its too easy to gain space with the lurker.
One more thing I would recommend is nerfing its off-creep speed, while keeping the on-creep speed the game. This keeps it good on defense at home, but makes it harder to go out across the map with to get space. Its a defensive, space-controlling unit: not something offensive. These 3 nerfs should keep it in its place. As for damage, stats and such, the unit is in a great place.
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On October 05 2015 09:01 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 08:27 jinjin5000 wrote:
lowering its enormous health pool and increasing is burrow time would make it fine I believe. Holy, I didn't realize it was that large. It should be something like 165, so it doesn't get one-shot by disruptors, but can still be focused down. at 165, it would be left with 20 hp after a disruptor shot, so it can be pulled back. I also totally agree with the burrow nerf: its too easy to gain space with the lurker. One more thing I would recommend is nerfing its off-creep speed, while keeping the on-creep speed the game. This keeps it good on defense at home, but makes it harder to go out across the map with to get space. Its a defensive, space-controlling unit: not something offensive. These 3 nerfs should keep it in its place. As for damage, stats and such, the unit is in a great place.
On October 05 2015 06:44 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 04:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
The only way we've found to deal with Lurkers in TvZ is Liberator play. We play Archon mode. The lurker is definitely a situation where if you get caught off guard and don't have tanks/liberators, and banked scans, you basically die. Raven is garbage against lurker. Too easy to snipe. Thats actually bullshit, most of the times you are able to overpower Lurker with bio, when you havent done that with Tanks already. You are also allowed to abuse the fact that there is not enough anti against drops available. There is a good reason why there arent any lurker plays against bio in pro games. Playing with Lurker is nothing with awkward and disappointing
Yeah, plus you can split up your marines/marauders if the lurker is undefended and micro against the spines.
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Lurker is fine. You just can't 1A across the map without looking at your army. Kinda like in WOL before HOTS gave us Widow Mines w/ Instant Burrow 
People just need to slow down, and move around. Remember that Lurkers can only attack when burrowed so attack from another angle. Lurkers are also immobile, so drop around.
Lurkers are exciting, I hope they don't get nerfed.
I will say though the SC2 Lurker effects are underwhelming.
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On October 05 2015 09:24 GinDo wrote:Lurker is fine. You just can't 1A across the map without looking at your army. Kinda like in WOL before HOTS gave us Widow Mines w/ Instant Burrow People just need to slow down, and move around. Remember that Lurkers can only attack when burrowed so attack from another angle. Lurkers are also immobile, so drop around. Lurkers are exciting, I hope they don't get nerfed. I will say though the SC2 Lurker effects are underwhelming.
I agree that the lurker is a great addition to the game. What people don't like is how you can easily walk up and burrow the lurker offensively. The proposed nerfs by Jinjin and I are focused on keeping it as a zone-control unit, andnot something you can throw into a deathball and use offensively.
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On October 05 2015 10:14 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 09:24 GinDo wrote:Lurker is fine. You just can't 1A across the map without looking at your army. Kinda like in WOL before HOTS gave us Widow Mines w/ Instant Burrow People just need to slow down, and move around. Remember that Lurkers can only attack when burrowed so attack from another angle. Lurkers are also immobile, so drop around. Lurkers are exciting, I hope they don't get nerfed. I will say though the SC2 Lurker effects are underwhelming. I agree that the lurker is a great addition to the game. What people don't like is how you can easily walk up and burrow the lurker offensively. The proposed nerfs by Jinjin and I are focused on keeping it as a zone-control unit, andnot something you can throw into a deathball and use offensively.
I think you are playing against them incorrectly. Offensive burrowing was a thing in BW as well, but it was never an issue.
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On October 05 2015 10:14 DilemaH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 09:24 GinDo wrote:Lurker is fine. You just can't 1A across the map without looking at your army. Kinda like in WOL before HOTS gave us Widow Mines w/ Instant Burrow People just need to slow down, and move around. Remember that Lurkers can only attack when burrowed so attack from another angle. Lurkers are also immobile, so drop around. Lurkers are exciting, I hope they don't get nerfed. I will say though the SC2 Lurker effects are underwhelming. I agree that the lurker is a great addition to the game. What people don't like is how you can easily walk up and burrow the lurker offensively. The proposed nerfs by Jinjin and I are focused on keeping it as a zone-control unit, andnot something you can throw into a deathball and use offensively.
Well alot of Terran have gotten used to not using many tanks.
Trust me you can't Offensive burrow without Vipers against a huge siege line with Marines and medics.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LhI6P.gif)
