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On August 21 2015 18:46 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 18:11 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 18:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I'll add that I'm very comfortable with removing injects because they added zero depth. In any circumstance, injecting is better than doing anything else. But the MULE/scan duality always felt interesting to me, and as a P player I know how chrono usage could be refined to the extreme. I wish they removed injects altogether (with boosted standard hatchery prod) but kept toned down versions of MULEs and chronos. Why isn't autoinject more interesting? It leaves the strategical depth around sniping queens and pulling queens for other tasks such as defense. It also is much easier to balance than just buffing hatcheries to a level where it competes with the 150mineral investment and build time (this is a huge component! Without the necessity to build queens you can rush a lair at and have mutas by 4mins!) Additionally, nerfed inject means that it now has a bit of a a decision. I remember that back in 2011 and even in gasless ZvZ builds in 2013 I would sometimes use my first queen at the natural for a creep tumor. (something I eventually gave up on because 4drones is just better) With 2 larva injects (and mules/chrono gone) I can very well see such decisions making it a bit into the game. Because it's an automated task and it opens all sorts of doors I wanna leave closed. And with how Proleague still forbids automated worker rally at start of the game, do you really think they'll be comfortable with autoinjects ? This is a very dangerous idea.
There is autorepair in the game, autocast on lock-on, medivac heal and interceptor building. And those are just the abilities that blizzard shows you that it is an autocast feature through a button that has a special autocast frame.
Beyond that there are tons and tons of automated abilities/features in the game, starting with workers having their return cargo on autocast after acquiring resources to idle aggro stances for uncontrolled units with an attack and idle "run away" stances for units without an attack. We have combined orders such as attack-move or patrol so that you don't have to give every order and we have smartcast behaviours turned on and off on spellcasters depending on what feels like the better solution for each spell. The whole concept of right click is a bigass smartcast macro feature that automates your decision.
If it is a dangerous path we are already going it since WC1 or earlier.
Proleague's decision to not autmatically workerrally is also just a visual bone thrown for BW nostalgics without a real gameplay implication.
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On August 21 2015 18:55 MorDka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote:
While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this.
From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right!
You cannot kill it as the energy ball comes from darkness outside tank range. Anything slow or static will die vs good toss players
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
On August 21 2015 18:57 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 18:55 MorDka wrote:On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote:
While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this.
From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right! You cannot kill it as the energy ball comes from darkness outside tank range. Anything slow or static will die vs good toss players
Outside of tank vision or tank range? Pretty important difference there~ I can't play til later and literally nobody AFAIK has posted a video showing how the mechanic works. I assumed it was just like reaver, but reavers can't really siege tank lines in BW.
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Zealot charge dealing 30 damage on hit?
Holy shit this is going to be god damn powerful. Once protoss gets charge zerglings and marines would stand no chance, and even large units might be easily taken down with charge. I would love to see how OP this will turn out to be.
The only problem I have with this is that the reward from charge (30 instant damage) seems too much for the amount of micro; You just a-move and let the zealots do the work. I would still love to see zealot speed and charge upgrade being split up (and maintaining the pre-nerf speedlot speed), and having the zealot charge be an activity ability similar to Kerrigan's psionic shift, except that it damages the first target it runs into and stops there. This would at least encourage players to spread out their zealots and promote positional play.
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Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
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On August 21 2015 19:15 Estancia wrote:
Zealot charge dealing 30 damage on hit?
Holy shit this is going to be god damn powerful. Once protoss gets charge zerglings and marines would stand no chance, and even large units might be easily taken down with charge. I would love to see how OP this will turn out to be.
The only problem I have with this is that the reward from charge (30 instant damage) seems too much for the amount of micro; You just a-move and let the zealots do the work. I would still love to see zealot speed and charge upgrade being split up (and maintaining the pre-nerf speedlot speed), and having the zealot charge be an activity ability similar to Kerrigan's psionic shift, except that it damages the first target it runs into and stops there. This would at least encourage players to spread out their zealots and promote positional play.
I actually experiemnted alot with any type of "manual charge" ability in various types of shape for the Zealot. But in the end it just doesn't work as it ends up feeling like random button-pressing (like Immortal shield) rather than something which requires thought and precision (I guess Psy Storm is an example of that type of ability).
The best solution is to just make the Zealot much faster by default (as in BW).
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On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote:
Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
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I was sure not to buy lotv since US dollar is damn expensive in my country, but if blizz keep going like this they may get my money again 
The only complaint I have now is that terran units look ugly. Especially cyclone but tank is ugly too, unsieged tanks look just like a lame box.
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On August 21 2015 19:21 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote:
Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro. I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
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On August 21 2015 19:32 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:21 Vanadiel wrote:On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote:
Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro. I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level. Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
Wut???
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On August 21 2015 19:32 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:32 Dingodile wrote:On August 21 2015 19:21 Vanadiel wrote:On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote:
Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro. I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level. Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever. Wut???
2 larvas per inject now. not 4 like we had. I had always nearly 0 energy queens until Lategame.
I mean if zerg want to attack/defense in early or mid game.
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On August 21 2015 19:32 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:21 Vanadiel wrote:On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote:
Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro. I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level. Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
You are wrong though, in theory having less larva does indeed does not allow you to produce as much units as before, but the loss of Mules and chronoboost also reduces terrans and protoss production, and in the end all of this will be balanced out. Design wise, on the other hand, playing Zerg has been extremely simplified.
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I want medivacs to be able to pick up disruptor balls and them to do friendly fire.
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I think the game is going in the wrong direction,
Because of these changes the dynamic game desired by blizzard slowed considerably,
Without mule Terran simply can not compete economically with other races and especially versus Zerg,
All the game we have the feeling of not being able to produce correctly, always running out of money and could not keep the pace of the game, i think the game was really fun and dynamics before this patch, there was so many possibility of multitask and producing in the same time now the macro terran cant survive with this heavy nerf,
Now it's frustrating and way more difficult to play with all that money in less its just like we're out of money every time, this patch is a buff for zerg player who can perfectly inject middle late game on 5 hatch and more but if you add this with a huge nerf of mule, Terran just can't compet against that
I think it would be better to return with the macro-management as we know, with no auto-inject, chronoboost and mule, There Just a few adjust to make the game balance but for the deep aim of macro shouldnt be changed and especially like that,
What was good and work perfectly for 5 years, five years of training must remain, Supress the mule upon which the whole race terrane is based around is really not a solution, and has no positive side to the game
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On August 21 2015 19:32 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:21 Vanadiel wrote:On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote:
Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro. I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level. Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
But without Mules and Chrono T and P have less money so less units no?
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On August 21 2015 19:35 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:32 Bojas wrote:On August 21 2015 19:32 Dingodile wrote:On August 21 2015 19:21 Vanadiel wrote:On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote:
Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro. I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level. Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever. Wut??? 2 larvas per inject now. not 4 like we had. I had always nearly 0 energy queens until Lategame. I mean if zerg want to attack/defense in early or mid game.
I'm aware that 2 larvas per inject is the number that spawns, personally I don't think that would be a huge factor in the midgame considering mid-master and even high master zergs start floating energy there. Early game, Zerg will have to adjust versus allins at best after that they will have just as many larva as before with a fraction of the skill required before the change.
I don't think what you say is true, but even if it is, more skill because you need to kite with your roaches/position your units differently? Define micro please.
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On August 21 2015 19:00 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 18:57 -Archangel- wrote:On August 21 2015 18:55 MorDka wrote:On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote:
While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this.
From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right! You cannot kill it as the energy ball comes from darkness outside tank range. Anything slow or static will die vs good toss players Outside of tank vision or tank range? Pretty important difference there~ I can't play til later and literally nobody AFAIK has posted a video showing how the mechanic works. I assumed it was just like reaver, but reavers can't really siege tank lines in BW.
Outside tank range. I was watching Supernova play mech with new patch. The energy ball would come from darkness and he could do nothing about it. Made tanks completely useless for defending expansions. At least reavers needed to be within tank range to shoot the scarab and then it could travel further away. Disruptors seem to be able to shoot it at nothing and then manually control it and send it further away.
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On August 21 2015 19:22 mantequilla wrote:I was sure not to buy lotv since US dollar is damn expensive in my country, but if blizz keep going like this they may get my money again The only complaint I have now is that terran units look ugly. Especially cyclone but tank is ugly too, unsieged tanks look just like a lame box.
The new air units looks like a dick without balls lol. Terrible design. Cyclone is not cool looking as well.
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On August 21 2015 18:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 18:06 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 17:58 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:44 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 17:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:31 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 17:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted". I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now. Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations. Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy. You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce. Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it) There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game. No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was: Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS. My own bias lol. Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros. The only real mechanical difficulty was for Zerg, and that's because without it there is a very sharp discrepancy between P/T and Z macro.
could not agree more with this. the amount of whining on this thread is way too big for a change thats, lets say not perfect, but at least heading in the right direction
they did say to keep an open mind during testing as these are not final in any way and answers like "goodbye blizz its been a fun ride" are wrong on so many levels
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On August 21 2015 19:41 SC2Angora wrote:
I think the game is going in the wrong direction,
Because of these changes the dynamic game desired by blizzard slowed considerably,
Without mule Terran simply can not compete economically with other races and especially versus Zerg,
All the game we have the feeling of not being able to produce correctly, always running out of money and could not keep the pace of the game, i think the game was really fun and dynamics before this patch, there was so many possibility of multitask and producing in the same time now the macro terran cant survive with this heavy nerf,
Now it's frustrating and way more difficult to play with all that money in less its just like we're out of money every time, this patch is a buff for zerg player who can perfectly inject middle late game on 5 hatch and more but if you add this with a huge nerf of mule, Terran just can't compet against that
I think it would be better to return with the macro-management as we know, with no auto-inject, chronoboost and mule, There Just a few adjust to make the game balance but for the deep aim of macro shouldnt be changed and especially like that,
What was good and work perfectly for 5 years, five years of training must remain, Supress the mule upon which the whole race terrane is based around is really not a solution, and has no positive side to the game
I would say Terran benefits the most from it currently. The other races can't just spew out workers anymore, so killing them actually hurts them as much as it hurt Terran before. And Teran is pretty good at killing workers. Also you won't need to Orbital every base asap, while Zerg will need additional hatches.
The big issue comes at 200 supply, the other races still have their oversupply mechanics, Protoss oversupply is buffed even.
And while Zerg got simplified, they also said they will be watching creep spread, so they can always make that harder to do to keep Zerg busy.
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EPT
