We have a significant balance update today for Legacy of the Void. Many of you may already know what’s coming from interacting with us and providing feedback via our weekly community feedback updates, but for those who want a breakdown of all the changes and why we’re making them, you can find all the details below! Please remember that none of these changes are final, and we are eager to hear your thoughts before and after you play with these changes.
Macro mechanics changes:
Spawn Larva is reduced to 2 per injection, and set to autocast by default
M.U.L.E. is removed
Chrono Boost is removed
As we’ve been discussing over the past few weeks, we’d like to try out these changes on a larger scale. We are aware that these changes may present the need for balance tuning in other areas, so it would be great if everyone can keep this in mind while testing. For example, this type of feedback: “removing Chrono Boost was bad because Blink now takes unreasonably long” isn’t very useful because changing research and build time is easy if we determine that the Chrono Boost change is good.
Due to the Chrono Boost removal, we’re also adding the following buffs to help Protoss in the early game:
Warpgate research time reduced to 140, from 160
Disruptor build reduced to 50, from 60
Added one additional supply to Nexus
Cyclone
Anti-air attack reinstated, but damage is reduced
Damage against ground units is reduced
Removed current upgrades and replaced with one which greatly increases Lock On damage against both air and ground units
The main goal for the Cyclone is to have them counter air units early on, but not to the point that you can’t go air against Terran like we saw early on in the beta. In late-game scenarios, due to their reasonable speed, range, and damage against all unit types, it has not been uncommon to see armies almost exclusively consisting of Cyclones. We also wanted to hit this a bit hard so that in the late game, Cyclones can be good but not to the point that they’re the only unit needed.
Zealot Charge upgrade
Speed bonus is reset to Heart of the Swarm levels
Charge deals 30 damage on hit
We want to have a clear difference between Zealots and Adepts. We believe Adepts are more effective than Zealots in large, extended engagements. Therefore, we wanted to look for a change that would make Zealots clearly better in harassment situations. However, because Zealot burst damage will be effective in direct engagements as well, we’ll be monitoring exactly when Zealots outperform Adepts and vice-versa.
Warpgate
Warping in at Pylons takes 16 seconds
Pylon power is buffed when touching a Nexus or a Warpgate Warping in takes 2 seconds in this case
Due to the results we’ve had internally, we’d like to test this rather large change and see if it’s good for the game. We initially believe that the buff to defensive situations is good because Protoss is currently struggling to keep up with expansions as the game enters the mid-to-late game. Also, while 16 seconds on offense may be too big of a nerf, we’d really love to try out this more extreme number just to be able to quickly test the side effects of this change.
Rapid Deployment Medivac upgrade removed
New upgrade added: High Capacity Fuel Tanks - Increases the speed boost duration of Ignite Afterburners by 50%
The current upgrade for Medivacs is too big of an upgrade to the in-combat cases. We want to try out a buff that mostly affects the harassment and retreat cases. We’ll see how this new upgrade goes before we make a call on what to do in this area going forward.
Disruptor Redesign:
Disruptors now shoot out a ball of energy that can be manually controlled.
This energy ball blows up after a few seconds, dealing high damage.
Disruptor invulnerability removed. Energy balls are invulnerable.
If the Disruptor is killed, the energy ball fizzles dealing no damage.
As we mentioned briefly at gamescom, we've completed redesigned the Disruptor into a unit that fires explosive weapons into the enemy lines. This new version has been working out very well for us. It has the core, awesome part of the Disruptor in the beta (its ability to have micro on both sides in engagements where Disruptors are used), and now has a change that opens up more counter opportunities.
Enemy Spawn location display increased from 10 seconds to 25 seconds
We heard your feedback about the potential enemy spawn location display being too short right now, so we’ve tried to strike a balance where it doesn’t stay up too long, but players have enough time to check when they aren’t busy at the start of games. We’d like to try out 25 seconds for now and see how that feels.
Removed current upgrades and replaced with one which greatly increases Lock On damage against both air and ground units
The main goal for the Cyclone is to have them counter air units early on, but not to the point that you can’t go air against Terran like we saw early on in the beta. In late-game scenarios, due to their reasonable speed, range, and damage against all unit types, it has not been uncommon to see armies almost exclusively consisting of Cyclones. We also wanted to hit this a bit hard so that in the late game, Cyclones can be good but not to the point that they’re the only unit needed.
Good change but is not enough, I will always hate lock-on because even if the cyclone becomes balanced the counter play is just not fun, just balanced around a good auto attack, low damage point and tracking turret , so it has some actual micro,not just a retarded diamond-back.
These are some nice surprises honestly! Dont really like the macro mechanic changes on the paper, but the unit changes sound pretty cool and reasonable!
Removed current upgrades and replaced with one which greatly increases Lock On damage against both air and ground units
The main goal for the Cyclone is to have them counter air units early on, but not to the point that you can’t go air against Terran like we saw early on in the beta. In late-game scenarios, due to their reasonable speed, range, and damage against all unit types, it has not been uncommon to see armies almost exclusively consisting of Cyclones. We also wanted to hit this a bit hard so that in the late game, Cyclones can be good but not to the point that they’re the only unit needed.
Good change but is not enough, I will always hate lock-on because even if the cyclone becomes balanced the counter play is just not fun, just balanced around a good auto attack, low damage point and tracking turret , so it has some actual micro,not just a retarded diamond-back.
I didnt understand how this change fix mass cyclone play if lock on still do huge damage?
On August 21 2015 03:14 wrj wrote: I didn't understand,is there a warp prism change or not?
You can warp-in in 2 seconds in the Warp Prism's power field as well, as far as I know.
Thats not what you see from the patch notes
It's not mentioned here, but I'm pretty sure they said the Warp Prism would have buffed power field. Whether they forgot to mention here or decided to change it I don't know.
Cyclone AA back is good - need to see damage nerf though. Hopefully the ground damage can deal with Adepts, and need to understand what the chrono and warp in timing does to limit the strength of Adept 'all'-ins.
Exciting! The only thing i dislike the whole beta duration is the cyclone design. I hate its lockdown, there is no counterplay for having fun on both sides. (plus the skin is uuuugly.
Ah great, they are also finally doing the cyclone patch. Interested in how it goes and whether it puts an end to early stargate insanity and lategame mass cyclone bullshit.
Zealot buff sounds too powerful. Also they should be going for a nicer value, like 16*2. Also interested if it is spelldamage or normal (upgradeable?) damage.
Also hope the medivac doesnt get any buff at the end of the day. Id rather see it toned down a little bit together with mutas.
No longer will protoss need to cut probes in order to build a pylon! This really adds to the quality of life and fluidity of the game. Best part of this patch !!!!
disruptor and warpgate changes are awesome, medivac boost change is retarded. zealot and cyclone changes are decent, but cyclone really needs to become anti air focused. the idea of macro mechanic removal is ok but it's obvious that it will require some future rebalancing of units, so i won't judge it yet.
So boost would have a 12 second duration with a 20 second cooldown unless I'm mistaken. I don't understand why they have to keep buffing it. The game isn't going to somehow become more exciting with that buff and they're already good units.
On August 21 2015 03:29 Shairak wrote: So boost would have a 12 second duration with a 20 second cooldown unless I'm mistaken. I don't understand why they have to keep buffing it. The game isn't going to somehow become more exciting with that buff and they're already good units.
Yeah and it's still a techlab upgrade you won't be able to fit into your BO anyways unless it would be very broken.
Lol, yeah almost a Reaver. They could really replace it now, because the reaver would fit better to the game-history.
All in all: For me as a dia-player the macro changes will probably be good for me. And i see, that they want to make the game more accessable for players like me or even worse players. But when i am Protoss for example (i play it the most) I have more influence on my gameplan, then without chrono. I have more options to choose which path i want to go this game. Fast upgrades or more income or faster coloss or whatever.
It sounds like the builds will not differ that much like they do with chronoboost.
Mules... I never really got why not more people complain about it. In later gamestages it is even for pro gamers very hard to damage the economy of a terran player.
For zerg players... I probably will be bad for the highest level of zerg-players. The machanics make a good zerg-player. Now players with a little worse mechanics and better strategical-play can be boostet. (wink wink catz or tlo)
But all in all nice to see some different development. When i see the streams i am not that blown away from the final expansion.
Love all these changes! Except for the queen one. I still want larva inject removed, more larva spawning at hatcheries, and 50 energy tumors.
One supply added to nexus seems cool. No more frustrating supply block while pylon is building. And Zerg still has it but they make up for it by being able to make a bunch of drones at 14/22.
Charge I wasn't expecting but we'll see.
The disruptor change is actually very similar to what I was thinking and wanted to make a thread on, but couldn't make concrete ideas for what I wanted. Good on Blizzard for reading my mind!
For zerg players... I probably will be bad for the highest level of zerg-players. The machanics make a good zerg-player. Now players with a little worse mechanics and better strategical-play can be boostet. (wink wink catz or tlo)
That was the big thing keeping me away from playing random. I love the zerg race and its intricacies but fuck injects.
Promising changes all around. Charge may be a pain in the late game sniping hatches, if it does damage to hatch. 8 zealots = - 240 instantly, potentially. Seems quite strong for harassment.
Removed current upgrades and replaced with one which greatly increases Lock On damage against both air and ground units
So I assume this is mostly a nerf to the range of the Cyclone since both Cyclone upgrades are removed?. Thus Cyclone max range is now 6/12.
Anyway, this is probably the first LOTV patch that has made me feel like playing the game again. I guess mostly just to test out the effects of the macromechanics becasue I am quite curious. Generally though I still dislike too many parts of the game, so don't think I will purchase LOTV.
On August 21 2015 03:32 Topin wrote: is the new Distruptor a Reaver 2.0 or a 0.2 .... i dont know what to think
2.0.
Advantages: - Scarab is free - Disruptor is faster - Can be picked up from 6 range instead of having to be under the shuttle - Manually controllable scarab - No duds
Disadvantages: - Takes much longer to reload - Scarab needs to be controlled (can't focus all your micro on the warp prism + disruptor)
On August 21 2015 03:45 Steelghost wrote: Sad IMO that they are not willing to talk about the economy... guess that when we grow tired of playing the game theyll learn
Seems like the economy isn't changing, which imho will absolutely ruin LotV. The new economy is so bad.
The medivac upgrade is a joke - nice to give some love to the medivac but it needs a tech lab! A TL on a starport is for Ravens (worthless now, especially with so many scans), Cattle Bruisers (enough said), and Banshees. Banshees only work vs Zerg now as T can scan for days.
The only thing I'm not a HUGE fan of is the Zealot change, Zealots should have been given Zealot legs to make them benefit from tactical micro especially against Lurkers, if Stim just ran Marines into an area then AOE units like Storm and Lurker would be super OP vs. them and they would be on a time clock for viability.
I don't even see the Cyclone enough in ZvT to warrant a comment on it, it's a unit that gets radically changed every patch and I've only seen it once maybe? So no comment there.
All of the other changes especially the Reav...Disruptor is AWESOME as is the changed up macro mechanics.
Yeah they might name the disruptor reaver at this point, only thing that is missing is the retarded AI. Also not a big fan about Adepts being the bulk of an army, i always felt that should be the Zealot and Adept be the harras part. Absolutely hate that they actually went all the way with removing macro mechanics
Without a minimum distance for zealots to be able to charge, it might be a bit silly, both in terms of damage and effect. Every 7 seconds I may want to slightly pull back zealots and then a-move them to do a huge amount of burst damage? It's 30+guaranteed attack remember, not just 30. Not saying it's overpowered, just that it's weird.
On August 21 2015 03:32 Topin wrote: is the new Distruptor a Reaver 2.0 or a 0.2 .... i dont know what to think
2.0.
Advantages: - Scarab is free - Disruptor is faster - Can be picked up from 6 range instead of having to be under the shuttle - Manually controllable scarab - No duds
Disadvantages: - Takes much longer to reload - Scarab needs to be controlled (can't focus all your micro on the warp prism + disruptor)
0.2 if that's the case. If every scarab doesn't feel like a massive gamble, what's the point? :/ 0.2/10 flavour fail.
On August 21 2015 03:32 Topin wrote: is the new Distruptor a Reaver 2.0 or a 0.2 .... i dont know what to think
2.0.
Advantages: - Scarab is free - Disruptor is faster - Can be picked up from 6 range instead of having to be under the shuttle - Manually controllable scarab - No duds
Disadvantages: - Takes much longer to reload - Scarab needs to be controlled (can't focus all your micro on the warp prism + disruptor)
0.2 if that's the case. If every scarab doesn't feel like a massive gamble, what's the point? :/ 0.2/10 flavour fail.
More rage from the enemy?
Also fun fact: Assuming they don't get this in the balance patch, disruptors can't damage other disruptors. So the best counter to disruptor in PvP is mass disruptor!
On August 21 2015 03:32 Topin wrote: is the new Distruptor a Reaver 2.0 or a 0.2 .... i dont know what to think
2.0.
Advantages: - Scarab is free - Disruptor is faster - Can be picked up from 6 range instead of having to be under the shuttle - Manually controllable scarab - No duds
Disadvantages: - Takes much longer to reload - Scarab needs to be controlled (can't focus all your micro on the warp prism + disruptor)
0.2 if that's the case. If every scarab doesn't feel like a massive gamble, what's the point? :/ 0.2/10 flavour fail.
More rage from the enemy?
Also fun fact: Assuming they don't get this in the balance patch, disruptors can't damage other disruptors. So the best counter to disruptor in PvP is mass disruptor!
Are we gonna see everyone build a few Disruptors, and go for mass carrier in PvP? Because that, I would totally watch.
On August 21 2015 03:32 Topin wrote: is the new Distruptor a Reaver 2.0 or a 0.2 .... i dont know what to think
2.0.
Advantages: - Scarab is free - Disruptor is faster - Can be picked up from 6 range instead of having to be under the shuttle - Manually controllable scarab - No duds
Disadvantages: - Takes much longer to reload - Scarab needs to be controlled (can't focus all your micro on the warp prism + disruptor)
0.2 if that's the case. If every scarab doesn't feel like a massive gamble, what's the point? :/ 0.2/10 flavour fail.
kinda agree, it feels like they innovated a wheel, just give us our Reaver!
On August 21 2015 03:32 Topin wrote: is the new Distruptor a Reaver 2.0 or a 0.2 .... i dont know what to think
2.0.
Advantages: - Scarab is free - Disruptor is faster - Can be picked up from 6 range instead of having to be under the shuttle - Manually controllable scarab - No duds
Disadvantages: - Takes much longer to reload - Scarab needs to be controlled (can't focus all your micro on the warp prism + disruptor)
0.2 if that's the case. If every scarab doesn't feel like a massive gamble, what's the point? :/ 0.2/10 flavour fail.
More rage from the enemy?
Also fun fact: Assuming they don't get this in the balance patch, disruptors can't damage other disruptors. So the best counter to disruptor in PvP is mass disruptor!
Are we gonna see everyone build a few Disruptors, and go for mass carrier in PvP? Because that, I would totally watch.
On August 21 2015 03:59 purakushi wrote: Scan duration should be lowered slightly. Maybe down to 10 or 8 seconds. It is currently 12.3 seconds.
Yes seriously! Now with so many more scans available, DT play is basically worthless against T, ravens are needed less, zerg burrow etc. Should maybe even narrow the scan field as well.
On August 21 2015 03:32 Topin wrote: is the new Distruptor a Reaver 2.0 or a 0.2 .... i dont know what to think
2.0.
Advantages: - Scarab is free - Disruptor is faster - Can be picked up from 6 range instead of having to be under the shuttle - Manually controllable scarab - No duds
Disadvantages: - Takes much longer to reload - Scarab needs to be controlled (can't focus all your micro on the warp prism + disruptor)
0.2 if that's the case. If every scarab doesn't feel like a massive gamble, what's the point? :/ 0.2/10 flavour fail.
kinda agree, it feels like they innovated a wheel, just give us our Reaver!
A Reaver that is fundamentally more powerful and lower-risk, and therefore not a Reaver. I feel like this'll be extremely difficult to use properly so maybe it won't be too strong, but it still feels like it's just a Reaver++, and not a Disruptor at this point.
Obviously I'm only ONLY ONLY talking about flavour, since I'm not in the LotV.
Absolutely love the Cyclone and Warpgate changes! Thank you. Now lets get to the Tank buffing :D
The Zealot and Medivac seem interesting and on the Disruptor i can't comment until i see it in play.
On the removal of Mules though, late late game Terran in HOTS is very reliant on the "true" max where you sacrifice SCVs and mine with Mules, so this could prove to be a massive nerf to late game Terran. This is something to watch for.
On August 21 2015 03:27 DinoMight wrote: They're basically trolling us at this point.
I guess the Cyclone change is good?
Chargelots will now rape everything, especially mineral lines.
it's still a melee unit with a charge cooldown. You make it sound like as if it's a unit with blue flame ranged cone attack that only costs minerals and can be healed. They are trolling i see? I'd say a lot of people are considerably excited for these changes and don't just blindly assume it'll be bad. But it is of no surprise that there will always be people on the forums going all : lets pick another reason to try and shit over blizzard over random projected reasoning's. LOL times never change do they. Can't contemplate the changes so i'll just try and devalue what i don't know about yet ! Great foresight and critical thinking. It only takes idiots to call something bad before it's ever tried. People didn't think you could invent a train or an airplane for hundreds of years. People also never thought the ultralisk would ever be good beforehand. ( it was able to be decent beforehand in WOL/hots but far from good) Welcome to the chronology of balance adjustments favoring the game to become better. But by all means keep doing that edgy i hate blizz attitude.
I personally dislike some stuff blizzard does in terms of how they give us news/promote 1 game more than the other. (D3 seasons are also way too long and boring) But honestly other than that they generally only make better changes to the game. But must be trolling cuz i'm internet minded trolololol. Fix your bias before you pinpoint an entire company based on your personal gaming perspective.
On August 21 2015 03:32 Topin wrote: is the new Distruptor a Reaver 2.0 or a 0.2 .... i dont know what to think
2.0.
Advantages: - Scarab is free - Disruptor is faster - Can be picked up from 6 range instead of having to be under the shuttle - Manually controllable scarab - No duds
Disadvantages: - Takes much longer to reload - Scarab needs to be controlled (can't focus all your micro on the warp prism + disruptor)
0.2 if that's the case. If every scarab doesn't feel like a massive gamble, what's the point? :/ 0.2/10 flavour fail.
kinda agree, it feels like they innovated a wheel, just give us our Reaver!
A Reaver that is fundamentally more powerful and lower-risk, and therefore not a Reaver. I feel like this'll be extremely difficult to use properly so maybe it won't be too strong, but it still feels like it's just a Reaver++, and not a Disruptor at this point.
Obviously I'm only ONLY ONLY talking about flavour, since I'm not in the LotV.
I definitely think they need to reconcile the fact that you can drop a reaver, pop the spell, and then put it back in the retreating prism for very little damage unless you've got tanks or something camping each base.
That said, it feels a lot more like storm than a reaver in my opinion. Placement of multiple novas becomes an issue since you don't want to overkill the meat of the army, you want damage to be done across the board. And there's definitely more room for counterplay since you have the strategic thinking like with the adept - do I try to mitigate my losses against the scarab, or do I try and shoot the disruptor before it escapes (in ground engages, not drops) to cancel the scarab off?
I'd rather just see a Zealot speed upgrade than charge, and this +30 damage on impact seems very silly. The reasoning is because Adepts are overused Zealots need to be buffed? right..
David Kim mentioned at Gamescom that the Disruptor was supposed to be stunned while the projectile was out, but looks like that isn't the notes this time.
So, if I miss 2 seconds playing against Protoss, all my workers will be massacred by dozens of zealots summoned immediately, dealing 30 damage in no time. So balanced. Really.
On August 21 2015 04:29 eviltomahawk wrote: David Kim mentioned at Gamescom that the Disruptor was supposed to be stunned while the projectile was out, but looks like that isn't the notes this time.
They might've highlighted the most important parts of the patch for this post, and left some things unsaid. Is it live yet? :o
I just had a dream of.... of thounsands of Planetarys....
You dont need that many orbitals now do you? So why not expand and when you are afraid of an attack morph the expo to a planetary. And there is no need to build a oribital rite after barracks rite?
On August 21 2015 04:32 Lappen.464 wrote: I just had a dream of.... of thounsands of Planetarys....
You dont need that many orbitals now do you? So why not expand and when you are afraid of an attack morph the expo to a planetary. And there is no need to build a oribital rite after barracks rite?
Haven't tried this out yet, but I want to see how successful I can do with a natural planetary instead of a bunker since I won't need the money for MULEs.
Knee-jerk thoughts, while looking forward to testing. I could be wrong about everything:
(1) This feels like a big ol' Terran nerf. This is pretty obvious, right? Wow ...
No MULE clearly nerfs SCVs, bunkers, and the bio play in general. Protoss will get timing changes on everything, eventually. Terran will get nothing, maybe even more nerfs.
The Medivac upgrade should auto-unlock at Armory, or at least be researchable there. The cyclone change is *shrug*. Not sure what to make of it. Obviously a big nerf.
(2) Zerg. Have no idea what to think. Feels like a buff, but several of you have made passionate arguments that autocasting the most powerful Zerg-spell is not a buff
(3) Protoss - ever the squeaky wheel. Instead of nerfing the lolAdept they buff the mehLot? Charge was already extremely good, now it seems absurdly good. Should Terran even bother building marines in TvP?
No chrono is clearly a huge nerf, but everything else will get buffed. So you'll be fine. You're going to see a lot of forward gateways with that forward pylon!
Thankfully they changed the disruptor from: invulnerable -> high burst damage -> invulnerable -> to: killable thing that shoots controllable AOE damage.
Hard to say. Gut says this patch buffs Zerg a little too much.
On August 21 2015 04:32 Lappen.464 wrote: I just had a dream of.... of thounsands of Planetarys....
You dont need that many orbitals now do you? So why not expand and when you are afraid of an attack morph the expo to a planetary. And there is no need to build a oribital rite after barracks rite?
Haven't tried this out yet, but I want to see how successful I can do with a natural planetary instead of a bunker since I won't need the money for MULEs.
too expensive, 150 gas in the early game is huge. I'd just not build orbital until I've saturated 2 mineral lines and make a pf 3rd.
On August 21 2015 04:32 Lappen.464 wrote: I just had a dream of.... of thounsands of Planetarys....
You dont need that many orbitals now do you? So why not expand and when you are afraid of an attack morph the expo to a planetary. And there is no need to build a oribital rite after barracks rite?
Haven't tried this out yet, but I want to see how successful I can do with a natural planetary instead of a bunker since I won't need the money for MULEs.
too expensive, 150 gas in the early game is huge. I'd just not build orbital until I've saturated 2 mineral lines and make a pf 3rd.
I think orbitals will be worth it cause you have the money regardless AND 'free scans' are pretty good
On August 21 2015 04:32 Lappen.464 wrote: I just had a dream of.... of thounsands of Planetarys....
You dont need that many orbitals now do you? So why not expand and when you are afraid of an attack morph the expo to a planetary. And there is no need to build a oribital rite after barracks rite?
Haven't tried this out yet, but I want to see how successful I can do with a natural planetary instead of a bunker since I won't need the money for MULEs.
too expensive, 150 gas in the early game is huge. I'd just not build orbital until I've saturated 2 mineral lines and make a pf 3rd.
Yeah I was talking to a friend and told me the same. But you don't need to invest those 150 Min early at least, and you can anyway build the Planetary over the standard CC on the Natural if you see an All In or hard timing push you need to hold.
On August 21 2015 04:32 Lappen.464 wrote: I just had a dream of.... of thounsands of Planetarys....
You dont need that many orbitals now do you? So why not expand and when you are afraid of an attack morph the expo to a planetary. And there is no need to build a oribital rite after barracks rite?
Haven't tried this out yet, but I want to see how successful I can do with a natural planetary instead of a bunker since I won't need the money for MULEs.
too expensive, 150 gas in the early game is huge. I'd just not build orbital until I've saturated 2 mineral lines and make a pf 3rd.
I think orbitals will be worth it cause you have the money regardless AND 'free scans' are pretty good
yeah but just build scv before. Like in bw tbh there is a clear example of how scans vs more scv works in a similar game.
I'm really surprised they didn't reduce MsC build time to match the usual chrono protoss were doing ! The removal of chronoboost smell huge proxy reapers and proxy baracks against protoss ,we'll see ....
On August 21 2015 04:28 KelsierSC wrote: and changes to zerg...........................................................
what is the point of changing a mechanic if you aren't going to add anything else or change units
i'd imagine they felt that with the economy in lotv, less larva at the beginning of the game is probably fair because the other races cannot chrono out probes or mule.
On August 21 2015 04:38 TimeSpiral wrote: (1) This feels like a big ol' Terran nerf. This is pretty obvious, right? Wow ...
It almost certainly is. There's been some speculation that Terran won't hang in the late game because they can't sacrifice their SCVs and keep their economy afloat with MULES. Their early game might be hit since they aren't getting an injection of minerals at predictable times.
In any case, this is exactly what Blizz was talking about in the notes. They understand that adjustment will almost certainly be necessary.
The cyclone change is *shrug*. Not sure what to make of it. Obviously a big nerf.
Not necessarily a nerf. It now functions as an anti-air for early and mid. What remains to be seen is just what Blizz means by "decreased damage" and an upgrade that "increases damage" as those are relative terms that could make or break the unit.
(2) Zerg. Have no idea what to think. Feels like a buff, but several of you have made passionate arguments that autocasting the most powerful Zerg-spell is not a buff
You must have missed the part about Spawn Larva's effectiveness being cut in half. This is absolutely a buff to weaker players who aren't hitting injections, but this is absolutely a nerf to pro players who are hitting injections at aaaaaalmost 100%, and somewhere in the middle is the person who's game won't be affected by this even kind of because their injections were just good enough to break even on this change. Whether zerg needs those two extra eggs or not remains to be seen, but there is a good reason people are calling this a nerf.
Hard to say. Gut says this patch buffs Zerg a little too much.
I doubt this very much unless you're sitting pretty in Bronze. My gut tells me most Zerg (and Zerg opponents) below Gold at a minimum will feel stronger or won't notice the change at all. Start talking to the Plat+ folk though. I imagine they are going to feel the sting some.
Spawn Larva is reduced to 2 per injection, and set to autocast by default M.U.L.E. is removed Chrono Boost is removed
What the hell? These practically defined the economic mechanics for all 3 races (and some micro for Zerg!).
Yeah, this has been under debate for a while, there's at least three threads on the first page of the LotV forum speaking out for and against this change.
On August 21 2015 04:32 Lappen.464 wrote: I just had a dream of.... of thounsands of Planetarys....
You dont need that many orbitals now do you? So why not expand and when you are afraid of an attack morph the expo to a planetary. And there is no need to build a oribital rite after barracks rite?
Haven't tried this out yet, but I want to see how successful I can do with a natural planetary instead of a bunker since I won't need the money for MULEs.
A supply calldown will still "give" you money, if not as much as MULEs. It grants you about 120 minerals (100 minerals as the cost of a Depot + ~20 as opportunity cost for the building SCV). It's not quite 270 as for MULEs, but you receive (or, rather, not lose) it instantly (at least the 100 part), and it is also permanently saved money, while MULEs just speed up the collection of resources you may mine anyway. On the downside, you have to still build a Depot to call down extra supplies on them. So while you will surely not need that many Orbitals, especially late game, you may consider building one or two because constant supply calldowns do generate some money for you.
Point was there is plenty to micro and macro without these mechanics that essentially all cancel each other out, aren't fun to use for new players, and aren't that impressive for pros from a viewership standpoint. They simply aren't a fun addition if anything they are just an annoying gimmick.
As far as the zealot, if it has no real function other than some early game use to hold walls and rushes and a cheap warp in for harassment then not sure why it's bad that another unit that is more interesting takes its spot. Funny took them this long to get the lurker back in the game yet they don't want to see the zealot disappear as if it's some iconic staple of SC.
im super excited for the changes. My prediction is that the zealot change will be nerfed, 30 damage sounds incredibly much - considering it already does an autoattack once it reaches it target. thats like 45?, almost oneshotting a marine - with charge.
The medivac thing also looks bad, and the larva thing im not too excited about.
All in all, im super hyped about some new, big SC2 Changes.
On August 21 2015 04:58 FLuE wrote: Point was there is plenty to micro and macro without these mechanics that essentially all cancel each other out, aren't fun to use for new players, and aren't that impressive for pros from a viewership standpoint. They simply aren't a fun addition if anything they are just an annoying gimmick.
As far as the zealot, if it has no real function other than some early game use to hold walls and rushes and a cheap warp in for harassment then not sure why it's bad that another unit that is more interesting takes its spot. Funny took them this long to get the lurker back in the game yet they don't want to see the zealot disappear as if it's some iconic staple of SC.
Select all larva, press z d or r. Impressive macro from soO. Oh wait it was mr. platinium 159, catz is somehow right now.
I feel like Zerg gets a massive nerf against Protoss with this patch. As they will need to expand sooner to keep up with the reduced larvae spawns, but Protoss always threatens the FFE into cannon rush making Zerg pool first. Now it seems like they wont have the larvae to roach counter an overly greedy Protoss player, and can possibly have difficulties holding off just standard aggression (which will come marginally slower due to missing chronoboost).
On August 21 2015 05:00 weikor wrote: im super excited for the changes. My prediction is that the zealot change will be nerfed, 30 damage sounds incredibly much - considering it already does an autoattack once it reaches it target. thats like 45?, almost oneshotting a marine - with charge.
The medivac thing also looks bad, and the larva thing im not too excited about.
All in all, im super hyped about some new, big SC2 Changes.
Yea they are going full Liberator on the Zealot right now, overbuffing it to death so it can be toned down to an appropriate level of balance.
Hell, remove them altogether at that point lol, the Adept is 10X the unit that the Zealot is anyways.
So they removed chrono and literally did not touch any build time or research time other than WG and Disruptor? What am I missing? Every build time was nerfed and built around chrono usage and they ignore it?
Are they like - lets nerf Protoss into oblivion and see what needs buffs? Glad I uninstalled, this is horrible attitude...
On August 21 2015 05:00 weikor wrote: im super excited for the changes. My prediction is that the zealot change will be nerfed, 30 damage sounds incredibly much - considering it already does an autoattack once it reaches it target. thats like 45?, almost oneshotting a marine - with charge.
The medivac thing also looks bad, and the larva thing im not too excited about.
All in all, im super hyped about some new, big SC2 Changes.
Yea they are going full Liberator on the Zealot right now, overbuffing it to death so it can be toned down to an appropriate level of balance.
Hell, remove them altogether at that point lol, the Adept is 10X the unit that the Zealot is anyways.
I feel like removing the Zealot would be dangerous for the Protoss armies - a mineral sink unit would be good to have regardless of race.
On August 21 2015 05:04 deacon.frost wrote: So they removed chrono and literally did not touch any build time or research time other than WG and Disruptor? What am I missing? Every build time was nerfed and built around chrono usage and they ignore it?
Are they like - lets nerf Protoss into oblivion and see what needs buffs? Glad I uninstalled, this is horrible attitude...
Oh my God lol, I don't understand this reaction from people at all, you must strictly care about winning games and nothing more.
This is going to be the toppling of the Jenga tower that is going to let the balance team reassemble said tower in a better,way, removing/changing core mechanics is always going to screw with balance.
But who cares about balance honestly if its boring? Would rather have good design.
On August 21 2015 05:00 weikor wrote: im super excited for the changes. My prediction is that the zealot change will be nerfed, 30 damage sounds incredibly much - considering it already does an autoattack once it reaches it target. thats like 45?, almost oneshotting a marine - with charge.
The medivac thing also looks bad, and the larva thing im not too excited about.
All in all, im super hyped about some new, big SC2 Changes.
Yea they are going full Liberator on the Zealot right now, overbuffing it to death so it can be toned down to an appropriate level of balance.
Hell, remove them altogether at that point lol, the Adept is 10X the unit that the Zealot is anyways.
I feel like removing the Zealot would be dangerous for the Protoss armies - a mineral sink unit would be good to have regardless of race.
Oh yea I agree, I was more so exaggerating, I don't really like where they are taking the Zealot, giving it Legs would have been a WAY better change, they are simply overbuffing a zero micro ability and I'm displeased.
On August 21 2015 05:04 deacon.frost wrote: So they removed chrono and literally did not touch any build time or research time other than WG and Disruptor? What am I missing? Every build time was nerfed and built around chrono usage and they ignore it?
Well yeah. Your delayed blink stalker all-in will be met with less marines (no mules) and your 7 gate all-in will be met with less roaches (less larva).
Are they like - lets nerf Protoss into oblivion and see what needs buffs? Glad I uninstalled, this is horrible attitude...
Did you miss that part where they said Zealots do 30 damage everytime they charge?
On August 21 2015 05:09 Afterhours wrote: If the Zealot Charge damage only effects 1 unit, it'll probably be ok. If it's an AoE, it's gonna be too strong I think.
Fun reason to get a fast charge upgrade either way. Just don't like the simplicity of it. Promotes A-move.
It would actually be cool if this 30 damage applied to your own units as well. I charge my zealots to my stalkers when I'm running away, this would make me have to control them better or damage my stalkers considerably.
On August 21 2015 05:09 Afterhours wrote: If the Zealot Charge damage only effects 1 unit, it'll probably be ok. If it's an AoE, it's gonna be too strong I think.
Fun reason to get a fast charge upgrade either way. Just don't like the simplicity of it. Promotes A-move.
i'd imagine it affects the unit it charges to, requiring you to make sure that you're spread out, else do too much dmg to one unit XD
On August 21 2015 05:09 Afterhours wrote: If the Zealot Charge damage only effects 1 unit, it'll probably be ok. If it's an AoE, it's gonna be too strong I think.
Fun reason to get a fast charge upgrade either way. Just don't like the simplicity of it. Promotes A-move.
i'd imagine it affects the unit it charges to, requiring you to make sure that you're spread out, else do too much dmg to one unit XD
This would be an interesting piece of micro, similar to the way you have to spread colossi now against Terran.
On August 21 2015 05:09 Afterhours wrote: If the Zealot Charge damage only effects 1 unit, it'll probably be ok. If it's an AoE, it's gonna be too strong I think.
Fun reason to get a fast charge upgrade either way. Just don't like the simplicity of it. Promotes A-move.
It would actually be cool if this 30 damage applied to your own units as well. I charge my zealots to my stalkers when I'm running away, this would make me have to control them better or damage my stalkers considerably.
Think twice about your proposition and what happens when you have 20+ chargelots.
On August 21 2015 05:09 Afterhours wrote: If the Zealot Charge damage only effects 1 unit, it'll probably be ok. If it's an AoE, it's gonna be too strong I think.
Fun reason to get a fast charge upgrade either way. Just don't like the simplicity of it. Promotes A-move.
It would actually be cool if this 30 damage applied to your own units as well. I charge my zealots to my stalkers when I'm running away, this would make me have to control them better or damage my stalkers considerably.
Think twice about your proposition and what happens when you have 20+ chargelots.
My stalkers get 20 hits on them unless I cancel the charge. Which is exactly what I'm envisioning?
Can't wait for this patch!!! Love the idea of Macro Booster Removal, and the Disruptor finally sounds like it is fixed and will remain in the game. All the fun of the original Disruptor, and the similar playstyle to the reaver, without the downsides the reaver had.
Sounds like a great patch, I'm glad Blizzard is brave enough to make such major changes to improve the game.
Now I can finally stop playing Heroes and get back into SC2! :D
So... why don't Blizzard just take back the Reaver, they took Spider, err, ehmm, Widow Mines back, and same goes for the Cyclone, the 2nd ugly bastard cousing of the Goliath.
So... why don't Blizzard just take back the Reaver, they took Spider, err, ehmm, Widow Mines back, and same goes for the Cyclone, the 2nd ugly bastard cousing of the Goliath.
Not sure if you remember playing with the Reaver, but the pathing could be really horrible, causing you to lose the scarab with no damage. It was slow as a snail. And the only micro possibilities was with a shuttle.
I personally much prefer the idea of having a controllable "scarab".
On August 21 2015 04:30 Thouhastmail wrote: So, if I miss 2 seconds playing against Protoss, all my workers will be massacred by dozens of zealots summoned immediately, dealing 30 damage in no time. So balanced. Really.
Yeah, kinda like Widow Mine drops in your mineral line. Pretty balanced.
On August 21 2015 04:30 Thouhastmail wrote: So, if I miss 2 seconds playing against Protoss, all my workers will be massacred by dozens of zealots summoned immediately, dealing 30 damage in no time. So balanced. Really.
Yeah, kinda like Widow Mine drops in your mineral line. Pretty balanced.
Now they only need to give Boost to overlords so the same can be done with banelings too. Balance
On August 21 2015 05:42 Fran_ wrote: I profoundly dislike the removal of macro mechanics. It waters down the game too much.
While we will not know until we actually test out the patch (this is a BETA after all), I don't think it will feel that way in-game since the micro requirements have increased greatly.
just got a breaking news update in teh client. looks like they expect the beta to be back up and running asap bc they have it scheduled for 2pm pst and back up again at..2pm pst
On August 21 2015 05:53 BluemoonSC wrote: i just finished playing a game and got booted. its a shame too bc i wanted to see why i lost a zvz i felt was close
If servers are down now, then maybe we get the patch in 4 hours? Someone said there is a 4 hour downtime....
On August 21 2015 05:01 UberNuB wrote: I feel like Zerg gets a massive nerf against Protoss with this patch. As they will need to expand sooner to keep up with the reduced larvae spawns, but Protoss always threatens the FFE into cannon rush making Zerg pool first. Now it seems like they wont have the larvae to roach counter an overly greedy Protoss player, and can possibly have difficulties holding off just standard aggression (which will come marginally slower due to missing chronoboost).
Zerg is able to open with hatch > pool > hatch / ling speed 1 queen currently and hold off any aggression, and be economically doing well. At the moment the 3rd hatch can even be a macro hatch, and economically Zerg is fine. There are ups and downs to this method and the conventional method, they are very minor differences when you break it down. Chrono on probes is gone. ... Meaning if he takes a nexus 1st, there is no 2x chrono 10 probes surge ahead of where he should be. It's a big difference. Zerg probably got buffed with this patch economically, compared to Protoss... taking a 3rd is what they want to do and early aggression from toss is weaker in every way.
On August 21 2015 05:00 weikor wrote: im super excited for the changes. My prediction is that the zealot change will be nerfed, 30 damage sounds incredibly much - considering it already does an autoattack once it reaches it target. thats like 45?, almost oneshotting a marine - with charge.
The medivac thing also looks bad, and the larva thing im not too excited about.
All in all, im super hyped about some new, big SC2 Changes.
Yea they are going full Liberator on the Zealot right now, overbuffing it to death so it can be toned down to an appropriate level of balance.
Hell, remove them altogether at that point lol, the Adept is 10X the unit that the Zealot is anyways.
I feel like removing the Zealot would be dangerous for the Protoss armies - a mineral sink unit would be good to have regardless of race.
Yes I do. Winning is the most fun for me.
But to be precise - building times of zealot, stalker, adept, immortal, observer or sentry could have been modified so you can build these units FASTER for DEFENSE against other unchanged build times of units. I do not care that much about technologies, I care about units, because defending rushes and proxies will be hell.
All the units I named are early-mid game units which are needed FAST. Namely observer for map awareness and drop defense. Robo build times need to be addressed and Blizzard just ignores it, that building used to be chronoed non stop.
So if I can see this missing, how can be Blizzard cannot see it?
Every eco has been touched, but Zerg/Terran never had touched build times of units because you can actually speed them up...
Edit: hmm, wrong quote... going to bad, not gonna change it, (s)he knows...
On August 21 2015 06:19 TwiggyWan wrote: lol this new disruptor is the reaver
Do you have any idea what BW pros would do if you could control the scarab...
That's like saying unsieged tanks are "basically" marines since they shoot and are ground units.
So many fizzled Reaver shots... the horror T_T This Disruptor change is pretty much the only thing I'm 100% excited about. Not too big on the other changes.
The game won't let me login because it no longer thinks I have beta access or it just won't try connecting to Battle.net so I'm assuming they are putting the balance patch right now.
Oh, this just popped up as I was typing this haha!
I just hope Protoss doesn't end up as low range bio race. That's of course not quite correct given they have nothing like the medivac and they have less range, but it feels a lot like blizzard just wants people to spam superefficient zealots and adepts into the opponent and harass the shit out of everyone with warp prisms and use widow mine launchers as their splash. Hell, even the cost ratios of the adept and the zealot are 100% the same as the ones of marine/marauder.
1) Macro mechanics : I'm all for the test, but I really think the autocast is crossing a dangerous line. I wish a more elegant solution was found. Creep is vital enough for Zerg to be an incentive to get queens (plus they're anti-air + ranged and incredibly useful in defence early game) so that I think that having the hatcheries spawning more larvae (and maybe lairs, hives spawning even more) would have been better.
2) Cyclone : my God, at last they're considering nerfing that shitty unit. I still think the upgrade should increase only vs air damage, but this is a start, though the "greatly improves" is definitely worrisome.
3) Zealot charge : LOL. So adepts are overpowered, hence overused, better make chargelots broken as well. Keep zealots as they are, nerf adepts accordingly. Why are you so stubborn ? And why do adept shades STILL go through freakin forcefields ?
4) Warpgate change : I'll be the first one to laugh at all the retards saying "Yay !" to the change when they will die to their 15th warp prism all-in of the day. Warp-in time should be left untouched, because they're basically buffing every all-in that includes a warp prism. I'll say it once again, but splitting energy power and warp-in power was a far more elegant and wise change that achieved the same offensive nerf while keeping the warp prism tame. But they seem adamant that a warp prism should be the most broken thing you can get for 200 minerals, so maybe that's a good change for them...
5) Disruptor redesing : this seems to be a good direction, I'm glad the invulnerability thing is gone. I'm comfortable with that one.
6) Enemy spawn location : lol who cares.
Anyway I'm not playing that unstable thing until they reach the fine tuning point (so roughly another month of HotS, which is a more pleasant and solid game anyway imo)... I'm no good tester, and I can't bear playing a game that's so obviously plagued with imbalanced things.
On August 21 2015 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote: Can someone explain to me why a 3 second reduction in warp ins without a change in the cooldown of the unit makes proxy warp gates OP?
Not proxy warpgates that are a big commitment, but warp-in all-ins are definitely made stronger.
On August 21 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote: 4) Warpgate change : I'll be the first one to laugh at all the retards saying "Yay !" to the change when they will die to their 15th warp prism all-in of the day. Warp-in time should be left untouched, because they're basically buffing every all-in that includes a warp prism. I'll say it once again, but splitting energy power and warp-in power was a far more elegant and wise change that achieved the same offensive nerf while keeping the warp prism tame. But they seem adamant that a warp prism should be the most broken thing you can get for 200 minerals, so maybe that's a good change for them...
I'm pretty sure people will also try to just proxy gateways and I'm not sure you can really find and deny them as Terran. E.g. against a blink, adept or charge allin, how much can you really just go out early? Or say a proxy robo or proxy stargate allin of 1base. It's not like you can kill the robo, so what makes blizzard think that that one gateway somewhere at the front can be denied? And suddenly Protoss has even stronger reinforcements...
The energy and warp-in power split however feels not that elegant either. At least when I visualize it, I always think of some green circles overlapping with some blue circles and you need X to get the one and Y for the other and it kind of makes no sense in my head. :S
On August 21 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote: 4) Warpgate change : I'll be the first one to laugh at all the retards saying "Yay !" to the change when they will die to their 15th warp prism all-in of the day. Warp-in time should be left untouched, because they're basically buffing every all-in that includes a warp prism. I'll say it once again, but splitting energy power and warp-in power was a far more elegant and wise change that achieved the same offensive nerf while keeping the warp prism tame. But they seem adamant that a warp prism should be the most broken thing you can get for 200 minerals, so maybe that's a good change for them...
I'm pretty sure people will also try to just proxy gateways and I'm not sure you can really find and deny them as Terran. E.g. against a blink, adept or charge allin, how much can you really just go out early? Or say a proxy robo or proxy stargate allin of 1base. It's not like you can kill the robo, so what makes blizzard think that that one gateway somewhere at the front can be denied? And suddenly Protoss has even stronger reinforcements...
The energy and warp-in power split however feels not that elegant either. At least when I visualize it, I always think of some green circles overlapping with some blue circles and you need X to get the one and Y for the other and it kind of makes no sense in my head. :S
With the current change you'll have circles overlapping, not with splitting. You'll see blue circles (energy power) when you want to build something and you'll see [insert any color that's not blue] circles when hitting W or selecting warpgates. Pretty neat and elegant IMO, while with the current change you definitely should have different color circles overlapping to make it clear where the warp-in will take 16 sec and where it'll take only 2.
Splitting energy and warp-in power would make life happier !
On August 21 2015 07:07 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Why nerf adepts when Protoss is already the underpowered race? Give Protoss some broken toys for the beta too. To match the ravager and tank.
Strong things are good, broken toys just make it impossible to make any assessment about the game. The current liberator for instance makes zero sense (ravagers and tanks are fine though dropping a sieged tank shouldn't be possible, just the pick-up).
On August 21 2015 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote: Can someone explain to me why a 3 second reduction in warp ins without a change in the cooldown of the unit makes proxy warp gates OP?
Not proxy warpgates that are a big commitment, but warp-in all-ins are definitely made stronger.
The cooldowns of units does not change. The only thing that changes is that the first round of units show up 3 seconds sooner--everything else comes in at the same pace as current all ins. Is the first wave showing up 3 seconds sooner that big of a buff to define them as overpowered?
On August 21 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote: Good and bad things in that patch, as usual...
1) Macro mechanics : I'm all for the test, but I really think the autocast is crossing a dangerous line. I wish a more elegant solution was found. Creep is vital enough for Zerg to be an incentive to get queens (plus they're anti-air + ranged and incredibly useful in defence early game) so that I think that having the hatcheries spawning more larvae (and maybe lairs, hives spawning even more) would have been better.
2) Cyclone : my God, at last they're considering nerfing that shitty unit. I still think the upgrade should increase only vs air damage, but this is a start, though the "greatly improves" is definitely worrisome.
3) Zealot charge : LOL. So adepts are overpowered, hence overused, better make chargelots broken as well. Keep zealots as they are, nerf adepts accordingly. Why are you so stubborn ? And why do adept shades STILL go through freakin forcefields ?
4) Warpgate change : I'll be the first one to laugh at all the retards saying "Yay !" to the change when they will die to their 15th warp prism all-in of the day. Warp-in time should be left untouched, because they're basically buffing every all-in that includes a warp prism. I'll say it once again, but splitting energy power and warp-in power was a far more elegant and wise change that achieved the same offensive nerf while keeping the warp prism tame. But they seem adamant that a warp prism should be the most broken thing you can get for 200 minerals, so maybe that's a good change for them...
5) Disruptor redesing : this seems to be a good direction, I'm glad the invulnerability thing is gone. I'm comfortable with that one.
6) Enemy spawn location : lol who cares.
Anyway I'm not playing that unstable thing until they reach the fine tuning point (so roughly another month of HotS, which is a more pleasant and solid game anyway imo)... I'm no good tester, and I can't bear playing a game that's so obviously plagued with imbalanced things.
Nice response honestly, a few differing opinions from my own but I really like some of yours.
Totally agree with the mechanics thing, I definitely want the auto cast removed and refined to something else that benefits top level play, maybe make it a lot cheaper like 25 energy but you only get the 2 larvae instead of the 4 with a 6 larvae max? I'm not sure what the actual max it but I know it's alot, something that still makes macro hatcheries a good option but in the early to mid game if you need extra units and your Jaedong you can have them but no crazy Mutalisk 200/200 remax that makes balance hard as hell to work around.
I'm just very excited to see some radical changes to simplify the apm sinks, I do kind of disagree with you on the Warp Gate change though, while it's good to see someone else who recognizes that this change with the Prisms will be broken as with the pick up not being an upgrade it's already kind of OP in my opinion. But I think that both of these changes are going to be like ripping off a big band aid and it's going to hurt balance greatly, but this time when it heals, which it WILL heal, the Koreans are going to set the meta and it's going to evolve just like it always does and that means balance patches WILL be coming out for a long time.
Couldn't agree more with you on the Cyclone though, that unit is total garbage, why the hell not just add the damn Goliath for mobile AA, Lurkers and uh.."Disruptors" have already injected so much life into the game, why not just do it for Terran as well, especially if the unit is just trying so hard to fill the same role that the Goliath did, the Cyclone is just so awful and low skill cap. It's not the unit mech needs or deserves.
I'm also kind of wondering when Overlord drop is going to be changed to something sensible like OVERSEER DROP. The drop at hatch tech thing just makes it so insanely gimmicky that it's not even funny, ZvZ just sucks, there is no stability without the ability to make a reliable wall off. No other race possesses drop tech at tier 1 for a reason, because it's just OP by nature being able to instantly by pass a wall off.
Change drop to an upgrade for Overseers for the same cost and time, that way, if a Zerg player wants to rush for drop tech, they at least have to wait for Lair, but they can still hit fast and Overseers without speed are only moderately fast, kind of sluggish and easy to pick off, but not so much with Overlords which by the mid game will NEVER be able to get a drop off in a defended base.
Also, Overseers even with speed upgrades still lack a direct combat involved ability, they are a utility unit only, they would be merely speedy detectors that can spawn scouts (which would be sick to cover drop areas for safety) So it wouldn't be OP to keep them cheap, having good drop options should be available to everybody, don't finally make the big change for Zerg and make it some gimmicky nonsense, give us a mid - late game reliable drop unit, not gimmicks that ruin the mirror match up if they work and are just stupidly useless if they don't.
Apologies for hijacking your post it was just nice to hear a level headed response to each change, lately it's just crying about MULES and Chrono lol so I can appreciate.
On August 21 2015 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote: Can someone explain to me why a 3 second reduction in warp ins without a change in the cooldown of the unit makes proxy warp gates OP?
Not proxy warpgates that are a big commitment, but warp-in all-ins are definitely made stronger.
The cooldowns of units does not change. The only thing that changes is that the first round of units show up 3 seconds sooner--everything else comes in at the same pace as current all ins. Is the first wave showing up 3 seconds sooner that big of a buff to define them as overpowered?
I think it's a huge buff to anything that includes a warp prism and lots of gateways, but maybe I'm overreacting. I say for sure it's not elegant, at least far less than warp-in/energy splitting.
I really hope that adding back in macro mechanics in some form will still be possible, and will still be considered, after this patch. If this works out wonderfully, fine. But if it doesn't, then I hope that everyone figures that out.
Gosh, I'm a bit nervous about this whole thing. The game's being turned upside down.
On August 21 2015 07:15 Captain Peabody wrote: I really hope that adding back in macro mechanics in some form will still be possible, and will still be considered, after this patch. If this works out wonderfully, fine. But if it doesn't, then I hope that everyone figures that out.
Gosh, I'm a bit nervous about this whole thing. The game's being turned upside down.
I simply hope that if the test turns out to be just bad or to require too many changes, they'll consider keeping macro mechanics as they are. Just that. But I'll be perfectly happy if the removal turns out to be great, I definitely think this can match the pace of the game and the economy far better since you'll exhaust minerals more slowly.
The game being turned upside down is probably not a bad thing per se, but I can't understand why they didn't do those huge changes earlier. I'm pretty sure they aim at a post-Blizzcon release, and time is running out. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the released product will be really bad balance wise and that the first LotV tourneys are going to be absolute jokes (which wasn't really the case with HotS, beginning was awesome and problems began after the oracle patch), I hope they'll accept to be very reactive with patches after release.
On August 21 2015 07:07 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Why nerf adepts when Protoss is already the underpowered race? Give Protoss some broken toys for the beta too. To match the ravager and tank.
Protoss don't seem to know how to play at this point. I've seen really strong Protoss and then I've seen Protoss who fold like tents.
On August 21 2015 07:15 Captain Peabody wrote: I really hope that adding back in macro mechanics in some form will still be possible, and will still be considered, after this patch. If this works out wonderfully, fine. But if it doesn't, then I hope that everyone figures that out.
Gosh, I'm a bit nervous about this whole thing. The game's being turned upside down.
I simply hope that if the test turns out to be just bad or to require too many changes, they'll consider keeping macro mechanics as they are. Just that. But I'll be perfectly happy if the removal turns out to be great, I definitely think this can match the pace of the game and the economy far better since you'll exhaust minerals more slowly.
I think i will miss the "mindless apm sink" as people named it. It is just fun to play against the game a bit, not every single interaction has to be with the enemy 100%, at least i don't see why. I think Zerg macro will be boring now, but i guess i should try it first...^^
edit: I agree that macro being slower overall is a good thing though
On August 21 2015 07:15 Captain Peabody wrote: I really hope that adding back in macro mechanics in some form will still be possible, and will still be considered, after this patch. If this works out wonderfully, fine. But if it doesn't, then I hope that everyone figures that out.
Gosh, I'm a bit nervous about this whole thing. The game's being turned upside down.
I simply hope that if the test turns out to be just bad or to require too many changes, they'll consider keeping macro mechanics as they are. Just that. But I'll be perfectly happy if the removal turns out to be great, I definitely think this can match the pace of the game and the economy far better since you'll exhaust minerals more slowly.
I think i will miss the "mindless apm sink" as people named it. It is just fun to play against the game a bit, not every single interaction has to be with the enemy 100%, at least i don't see why. I think Zerg macro will be boring now, but i guess i should try it first...^^
edit: I agree that macro being slower overall is a good thing though
The thing I'm the saddest about is the patch is kinda killing those pristine macro Zergs I'm a huge fan of (Jaedong sometimes, soO). It also limits a lot one of the things I liked the most about Zerg, namely wild tech switches. I think good things can be gotten from that change nevertheless (but don't have autocast queens please).
JD still has his legendary muta control which is still pretty amazing in SC2 even without the stacking. soO... he's got CatZ as a coach, he'll stay relevant in LotV.
On August 21 2015 07:15 Captain Peabody wrote: I really hope that adding back in macro mechanics in some form will still be possible, and will still be considered, after this patch. If this works out wonderfully, fine. But if it doesn't, then I hope that everyone figures that out.
Gosh, I'm a bit nervous about this whole thing. The game's being turned upside down.
I simply hope that if the test turns out to be just bad or to require too many changes, they'll consider keeping macro mechanics as they are. Just that. But I'll be perfectly happy if the removal turns out to be great, I definitely think this can match the pace of the game and the economy far better since you'll exhaust minerals more slowly.
I think i will miss the "mindless apm sink" as people named it. It is just fun to play against the game a bit, not every single interaction has to be with the enemy 100%, at least i don't see why. I think Zerg macro will be boring now, but i guess i should try it first...^^
edit: I agree that macro being slower overall is a good thing though
I hope they try what they talked about at some point, namely nerfing the mechanics but keeping them. I think this achieves what we all want, slower macro that fits the game better and more forgiving (or less punishing ?) macro.
So~ did they increase the rate at which larva spawn from the hatchery now to keep the overall larva production in the early game equal to the old way?
Without playing it, I feel like zerg is going to be super weak in the early/mid game now~ a time when hitting all your injects was the difference between living and dying.
So Protoss economy booster removed, but they got a buff Zergs economy booster got nerfed Terran economy booster got removed completely without a buff. I always thought the mule should help out because you always have several scvs building stuff, therefore not mining. Removing it completely, not removing the others macro booster completely... i see what you did there blizzard. But at least you are trying completely different things and mechanics and its just a beta, so I am really hopeful for LOTV
On August 21 2015 07:39 Rollora wrote: So Protoss economy got nerfed, but they got a buff Zergs economy got nerfed Terran economy booster got removed completely without a buff. I always thought the mule should help out because you always have several scvs building stuff, therefore not mining. Removing it completely, not removing the others macro booster completely... i see what you did there blizzard
How was Protoss macro booster not removed completely?
On August 21 2015 07:15 Captain Peabody wrote: I really hope that adding back in macro mechanics in some form will still be possible, and will still be considered, after this patch. If this works out wonderfully, fine. But if it doesn't, then I hope that everyone figures that out.
Gosh, I'm a bit nervous about this whole thing. The game's being turned upside down.
I simply hope that if the test turns out to be just bad or to require too many changes, they'll consider keeping macro mechanics as they are. Just that. But I'll be perfectly happy if the removal turns out to be great, I definitely think this can match the pace of the game and the economy far better since you'll exhaust minerals more slowly.
I think i will miss the "mindless apm sink" as people named it. It is just fun to play against the game a bit, not every single interaction has to be with the enemy 100%, at least i don't see why. I think Zerg macro will be boring now, but i guess i should try it first...^^
edit: I agree that macro being slower overall is a good thing though
The thing I'm the saddest about is the patch is kinda killing those pristine macro Zergs I'm a huge fan of (Jaedong sometimes, soO). It also limits a lot one of the things I liked the most about Zerg, namely wild tech switches. I think good things can be gotten from that change nevertheless (but don't have autocast queens please).
It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat) The mechanic is rotten. It has two major problems (that are obviously hugely connected): a) it's too important. Regardless what you are currently doing, if you haven't injected injecting is the proper call. During a battle when you think unit control and all that shit can be shown off, even or rather especially the best zergs go inject instead of microing. having 60% of your production on an ability is just too much and completely irreplaceable by any other form of play. b) the inject cannot be stored or postponed. 40seconds over? Well, gotta go inject right now. There is some battle going on? Sorry, micro comes afterwards, right now is inject time or otherwise I just lose out on this resource called larva. Doing muta harass that is going well? Well, let me park them over there for 5seconds because now is inject time.
On August 21 2015 07:45 weikor wrote: Well, there should be radical changes. So what if zealot is broken now, then that will get fine tuned.
The worst possible outcome is a mid - release patch to try fix some balance issues. This way everything will get changed in time for the release.
I kinda agree, but I wish they would set their goals more clearly. I remember that the adept was presented as a harass unit for instance, now it's clear they want it to be part of the core of a standard P army while making the zealot more harass focused. Fine, but I would like to see more of those design goals. What do they want to do for the Liberator for instance ?
But I agree we don't care about balance, this will be taken care of in a month when fine tuning begins.
So Protoss economy got nerfed, but they got a buff
They're still in the design phase (differentiating zealots from adepts, reworking warpgates in what's a massive nerf to offensive play) and balance will come later
On August 21 2015 07:34 Joedaddy wrote: So~ did they increase the rate at which larva spawn from the hatchery now to keep the overall larva production in the early game equal to the old way?
Without playing it, I feel like zerg is going to be super weak in the early/mid game now~ a time when hitting all your injects was the difference between living and dying.
same as before, design before balance. Also, hitting injects was the difference between living and dieing.. against pre-nerf warpgates and muled terrans. Mules are huge.
So Protoss economy got nerfed, but they got a buff
They're still in the design phase (differentiating zealots from adepts, reworking warpgates in what's a massive nerf to offensive play) and balance will come later
On August 21 2015 07:34 Joedaddy wrote: So~ did they increase the rate at which larva spawn from the hatchery now to keep the overall larva production in the early game equal to the old way?
Without playing it, I feel like zerg is going to be super weak in the early/mid game now~ a time when hitting all your injects was the difference between living and dying.
same as before, design before balance. Also, hitting injects was the difference between living and dieing.. against pre-nerf warpgates and muled terrans. Mules are huge.
Yeah. If you try and play a game without the ability to chrono probes, your army won't be very impressive. It seems pretty fine to me.
On August 21 2015 07:39 Rollora wrote: So Protoss economy got nerfed, but they got a buff Zergs economy got nerfed Terran economy booster got removed completely without a buff. I always thought the mule should help out because you always have several scvs building stuff, therefore not mining. Removing it completely, not removing the others macro booster completely... i see what you did there blizzard
How was Protoss macro booster not removed completely?
Spawn Larvae doesn't come into play until spawning pool and queen is done, i think most zerg players don't understand the impact of those first 2 mules giving you ~540 minerals or chroning workers at 10, 12, 14 supply.
Terran economy booster got removed completely without a buff. I always thought the mule should help out because you always have several scvs building stuff, therefore not mining. Removing it completely, not removing the others macro booster completely
Instead of getting 270 minerals from mule after a pretty big time delay, they have to use the 100-mineral-value instant supply drop. That provides both a safety net against supply blocks (even the best terrans can fuck up once or have depots focused/killed) and also, having the minerals earlier instead of after a 30 second delay can be very powerful - one of the strongest very early game terran all-ins used supply drop instead of mule in order to go to 3 rax without a second depot first, even when mule was available.
On August 21 2015 05:00 weikor wrote: im super excited for the changes. My prediction is that the zealot change will be nerfed, 30 damage sounds incredibly much - considering it already does an autoattack once it reaches it target. thats like 45?, almost oneshotting a marine - with charge.
The medivac thing also looks bad, and the larva thing im not too excited about.
All in all, im super hyped about some new, big SC2 Changes.
Yea they are going full Liberator on the Zealot right now, overbuffing it to death so it can be toned down to an appropriate level of balance.
Hell, remove them altogether at that point lol, the Adept is 10X the unit that the Zealot is anyways.
Yep, the idea should be to reduce the OPness of the Adept early in the game, not buff the Zealot because everyone just spams Adepts instead.
I'm really disliking the auto-inject :/ I feel like over the last 5 years it has become staple for zergs and differentiates good from bad. Injecting is just so fundamental (imo much more so than mules and chrono) it will feel weird without it.
On August 21 2015 07:39 Rollora wrote: So Protoss economy booster removed, but they got a buff Zergs economy booster got nerfed Terran economy booster got removed completely without a buff. I always thought the mule should help out because you always have several scvs building stuff, therefore not mining. Removing it completely, not removing the others macro booster completely... i see what you did there blizzard. But at least you are trying completely different things and mechanics and its just a beta, so I am really hopeful for LOTV
what? :o
- zerg halved - terran halved ( yeah supply drop is worth 100 and free 1 scv = around 20 mineral worth of mining ... also you deplete your mineral slower without mule) - protoss cutted
On August 21 2015 06:54 Naracs_Duc wrote: Can someone explain to me why a 3 second reduction in warp ins without a change in the cooldown of the unit makes proxy warp gates OP?
Not proxy warpgates that are a big commitment, but warp-in all-ins are definitely made stronger.
The cooldowns of units does not change. The only thing that changes is that the first round of units show up 3 seconds sooner--everything else comes in at the same pace as current all ins. Is the first wave showing up 3 seconds sooner that big of a buff to define them as overpowered?
I think it's a huge buff to anything that includes a warp prism and lots of gateways, but maybe I'm overreacting. I say for sure it's not elegant, at least far less than warp-in/energy splitting.
I definitely don't like it myself, I just don't see it as overpowered. Unelegant is closer to my opinion of it.
On August 21 2015 07:58 IMLyte wrote: I'm really disliking the auto-inject :/ I feel like over the last 5 years it has become staple for zergs and differentiates good from bad. Injecting is just so fundamental (imo much more so than mules and chrono) it will feel weird without it.
Yeah~ no kidding =(
You know that perfect rhythm you get when you're running through your cycle of actions? Yeah... I'm going to miss having inject as part of that.
Welcome to League of Starcraft! Blizzard dumbing down the game more and more. It will probably be a huge failure. people who like easy games already play League or DOTA and the starcraft players will be leaving soon.
On August 21 2015 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote: 4) Warpgate change : I'll be the first one to laugh at all the retards saying "Yay !" to the change when they will die to their 15th warp prism all-in of the day. Warp-in time should be left untouched, because they're basically buffing every all-in that includes a warp prism. I'll say it once again, but splitting energy power and warp-in power was a far more elegant and wise change that achieved the same offensive nerf while keeping the warp prism tame. But they seem adamant that a warp prism should be the most broken thing you can get for 200 minerals, so maybe that's a good change for them...
I'm pretty sure people will also try to just proxy gateways and I'm not sure you can really find and deny them as Terran. E.g. against a blink, adept or charge allin, how much can you really just go out early? Or say a proxy robo or proxy stargate allin of 1base. It's not like you can kill the robo, so what makes blizzard think that that one gateway somewhere at the front can be denied? And suddenly Protoss has even stronger reinforcements...
The energy and warp-in power split however feels not that elegant either. At least when I visualize it, I always think of some green circles overlapping with some blue circles and you need X to get the one and Y for the other and it kind of makes no sense in my head. :S
With the current change you'll have circles overlapping, not with splitting. You'll see blue circles (energy power) when you want to build something and you'll see [insert any color that's not blue] circles when hitting W or selecting warpgates. Pretty neat and elegant IMO, while with the current change you definitely should have different color circles overlapping to make it clear where the warp-in will take 16 sec and where it'll take only 2.
Splitting energy and warp-in power would make life happier !
That's one solution which is better than the one they propose, nevertheless I still prefer the one when once you research warpgate, your gate can either warp at any pylone when you press W to recall all your warpgate OR when you recall them with the control group you build them directly from your gate, like normal production. Now the main difference would be that, of course, building with the gate is faster than the warpgate cooldown, instead of the actual opposite.
Spawn Larva is reduced to 2 per injection, and set to autocast by default M.U.L.E. is removed Chrono Boost is removed
As we’ve been discussing over the past few weeks, we’d like to try out these changes on a larger scale. We are aware that these changes may present the need for balance tuning in other areas, so it would be great if everyone can keep this in mind while testing. For example, this type of feedback: “removing Chrono Boost was bad because Blink now takes unreasonably long” isn’t very useful because changing research and build time is easy if we determine that the Chrono Boost change is good.
I still don't understand what kind of feedback they áre looking for...? Still seems like a pure design choice to me, there's nothing quantifiable to test
On August 21 2015 07:15 Captain Peabody wrote: I really hope that adding back in macro mechanics in some form will still be possible, and will still be considered, after this patch. If this works out wonderfully, fine. But if it doesn't, then I hope that everyone figures that out.
Gosh, I'm a bit nervous about this whole thing. The game's being turned upside down.
I simply hope that if the test turns out to be just bad or to require too many changes, they'll consider keeping macro mechanics as they are. Just that. But I'll be perfectly happy if the removal turns out to be great, I definitely think this can match the pace of the game and the economy far better since you'll exhaust minerals more slowly.
I think i will miss the "mindless apm sink" as people named it. It is just fun to play against the game a bit, not every single interaction has to be with the enemy 100%, at least i don't see why. I think Zerg macro will be boring now, but i guess i should try it first...^^
edit: I agree that macro being slower overall is a good thing though
The thing I'm the saddest about is the patch is kinda killing those pristine macro Zergs I'm a huge fan of (Jaedong sometimes, soO). It also limits a lot one of the things I liked the most about Zerg, namely wild tech switches. I think good things can be gotten from that change nevertheless (but don't have autocast queens please).
It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat) The mechanic is rotten. It has two major problems (that are obviously hugely connected): a) it's too important. Regardless what you are currently doing, if you haven't injected injecting is the proper call. During a battle when you think unit control and all that shit can be shown off, even or rather especially the best zergs go inject instead of microing. having 60% of your production on an ability is just too much and completely irreplaceable by any other form of play. b) the inject cannot be stored or postponed. 40seconds over? Well, gotta go inject right now. There is some battle going on? Sorry, micro comes afterwards, right now is inject time or otherwise I just lose out on this resource called larva. Doing muta harass that is going well? Well, let me park them over there for 5seconds because now is inject time.
Well i would rather give zerg more micro potential (so there actually is a decision if you don't have enough apm to do both "at the same time") than just deleting one choice from the game. b) is the same for other races and their production cicles, you don't get the seconds back if you miss to build a marine. For zerg this is less of a problem because in the end you can just build all the units at once (in theory) I would agree that the initial eggs per inject was too high though (and thus it was too important to actually inject) On the other hand zerg macro is already pretty easy WITH inject tbh, so i don't know...
I always enjoyed chrono boost as a protoss mechanic (though it did force some balance changes, it feels versatile and fun) but i think mule was a bit of a toxic mechanic right from the start, it just gave a LOT of money. Injects are fun IMO but having a queen generate significantly more larvae than a hatchery isn't good, i think.
No auto-inject, reduced energy cost to 10-15 and giving 2 larvae with a small buff to hatch larvae generation would be better IMO. That would mean a bit less (or similar) larvae to today, but it would be less cataclysmicallly bad to miss them for 10-20 seconds and even with 100% perfect injects, it would only take two thirds of your energy (instead of current state where you have 22-23 energy stored when the next 25 energy inject timer is up)
Zealot buff sounds too powerful. Also they should be going for a nicer value, like 16*2. Also interested if it is spelldamage or normal (upgradeable?) damage.
Nothing about PB, Carriers or liberators. :-(
My guess is it is +30 damage not 15 or 16x2, if i am not mistaken, the charge hit currently only does 1 attack
On August 21 2015 07:45 weikor wrote: Well, there should be radical changes. So what if zealot is broken now, then that will get fine tuned.
The worst possible outcome is a mid - release patch to try fix some balance issues. This way everything will get changed in time for the release.
I kinda agree, but I wish they would set their goals more clearly. I remember that the adept was presented as a harass unit for instance, now it's clear they want it to be part of the core of a standard P army while making the zealot more harass focused. Fine, but I would like to see more of those design goals. What do they want to do for the Liberator for instance ?
But I agree we don't care about balance, this will be taken care of in a month when fine tuning begins.
I think they always meant adept to be a core unit, they just fucked up the design a little bit for it to be a core unit and tried to compensate by buffing its stats massively
No nerf to carriers, no nerf to broodlord viper. More unnecessary changes to units that no one asked for. Terrible patch overall.
Why does Blizzard not completely remove larva inject to be fair? Why does Protoss get buffs to compensate for removal of chrono boost while Terran gets nothing for removal of mules?
Spawn Larva is reduced to 2 per injection, and set to autocast by default M.U.L.E. is removed Chrono Boost is removed
As we’ve been discussing over the past few weeks, we’d like to try out these changes on a larger scale. We are aware that these changes may present the need for balance tuning in other areas, so it would be great if everyone can keep this in mind while testing. For example, this type of feedback: “removing Chrono Boost was bad because Blink now takes unreasonably long” isn’t very useful because changing research and build time is easy if we determine that the Chrono Boost change is good.
I still don't understand what kind of feedback they áre looking for...? Still seems like a pure design choice to me, there's nothing quantifiable to test
Macro Mechanics being removed is nothing to test? Uhhh...what?
On August 21 2015 07:15 Captain Peabody wrote: I really hope that adding back in macro mechanics in some form will still be possible, and will still be considered, after this patch. If this works out wonderfully, fine. But if it doesn't, then I hope that everyone figures that out.
Gosh, I'm a bit nervous about this whole thing. The game's being turned upside down.
I simply hope that if the test turns out to be just bad or to require too many changes, they'll consider keeping macro mechanics as they are. Just that. But I'll be perfectly happy if the removal turns out to be great, I definitely think this can match the pace of the game and the economy far better since you'll exhaust minerals more slowly.
I think i will miss the "mindless apm sink" as people named it. It is just fun to play against the game a bit, not every single interaction has to be with the enemy 100%, at least i don't see why. I think Zerg macro will be boring now, but i guess i should try it first...^^
edit: I agree that macro being slower overall is a good thing though
The thing I'm the saddest about is the patch is kinda killing those pristine macro Zergs I'm a huge fan of (Jaedong sometimes, soO). It also limits a lot one of the things I liked the most about Zerg, namely wild tech switches. I think good things can be gotten from that change nevertheless (but don't have autocast queens please).
It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat) The mechanic is rotten. It has two major problems (that are obviously hugely connected): a) it's too important. Regardless what you are currently doing, if you haven't injected injecting is the proper call. During a battle when you think unit control and all that shit can be shown off, even or rather especially the best zergs go inject instead of microing. having 60% of your production on an ability is just too much and completely irreplaceable by any other form of play. b) the inject cannot be stored or postponed. 40seconds over? Well, gotta go inject right now. There is some battle going on? Sorry, micro comes afterwards, right now is inject time or otherwise I just lose out on this resource called larva. Doing muta harass that is going well? Well, let me park them over there for 5seconds because now is inject time.
Well i would rather give zerg more micro potential (so there actually is a decision if you don't have enough apm to do both "at the same time") than just deleting one choice from the game. b) is the same for other races and their production cicles, you don't get the seconds back if you miss to build a marine. For zerg this is less of a problem because in the end you can just build all the units at once (in theory) I would agree that the initial eggs per inject was too high though (and thus it was too important to actually inject) On the other hand zerg macro is already pretty easy WITH inject tbh, so i don't know...
Zerg has a ton of micro potential. You cannot fix this problem with giving zerg "more micropotential". Pick any microheavy composition you want in the game (zerg, terran or protoss), put it on zerg production and you will always end up with the same problem: injecting is going to be more efficient than microing those units. It's plainly too strong/important of an ability. I don't want to get into this too heavily, I did in various threads and I don't see the point discussing it over and over again with the same arguments. Two things I want to mention regardless: 1) I get your point that maybe nerfing or something could work out, but at the end of the day I'm happy if they remove negative stuff from the game instead of bandaiding over it again and again. Yes, it might work but what are the chances that blizzard is going to do this? And then when they do it, what are the chances that they are getting it right so that it becomes more of a decision and not so punishing in particular for weaker players? Slim, slim, slim... Having it gone is in my opinion a great improvement - for arguments I won't reiterate - to the status quo (though I will try to keep an open mind until further testing). 2) TL Strat Chat covers the discussion about injects exceptionally well in my opinion and anyone interested in this topic should watch it
(if time stamp doesn't work, go to around 45:30 to get to the inject discussion)
Chargelot harass is going to be so huge now. 8 zealots x 30 initial charge damage = 240, Wipe a mineral line pretty damn quick. Which is really going to hurt terran without mules.
I still worry about the cyclone, it just isnt a fun unit to fight against, theres no real counter to the lock-on. I cant remember who wrote that article that said "fun is not an argument", but that couldn't be further from the truth in my opinion. I suppose we shall how things work out. It is only the beta but I fear the allotted time they've given
On August 21 2015 04:32 Lappen.464 wrote: I just had a dream of.... of thounsands of Planetarys....
You dont need that many orbitals now do you? So why not expand and when you are afraid of an attack morph the expo to a planetary. And there is no need to build a oribital rite after barracks rite?
Haven't tried this out yet, but I want to see how successful I can do with a natural planetary instead of a bunker since I won't need the money for MULEs.
A supply calldown will still "give" you money, if not as much as MULEs. It grants you about 120 minerals (100 minerals as the cost of a Depot + ~20 as opportunity cost for the building SCV). It's not quite 270 as for MULEs, but you receive (or, rather, not lose) it instantly (at least the 100 part), and it is also permanently saved money, while MULEs just speed up the collection of resources you may mine anyway. On the downside, you have to still build a Depot to call down extra supplies on them. So while you will surely not need that many Orbitals, especially late game, you may consider building one or two because constant supply calldowns do generate some money for you.
Constant supply call downs? There is a unit cap, so 10 call downs then, less considering supply from CCs, maybe more for replacing sniped supply depots. Not saying that removing macro boosters is a bad thing but it does not take long before the only thing to use energy for is scans and there is no longer any tactical decision to it.
On August 21 2015 09:01 Loccstana wrote: No nerf to carriers, no nerf to broodlord viper. More unnecessary changes to units that no one asked for. Terrible patch overall.
Why does Blizzard not completely remove larva inject to be fair? Why does Protoss get buffs to compensate for removal of chrono boost while Terran gets nothing for removal of mules?
I think any protoss on this forum would trade your 50 energy free supply depot or scan against that almost useless - 20 sec on wargate they got
Strongly opposed to just deleting Chrono Boost (where strategic choices can be made) and Auto-inject (something that differentiates good and bad players). I'm okay with getting rid of MULE if and only if they can find something else that makes Orbital energy more meaningful.
I wonder if more frequent scans will become a tool that Terran can use to cater their builds against their opponent. I agree that the supply drop loses its value at a certain point in most matches.
On August 21 2015 09:01 Loccstana wrote: No nerf to carriers, no nerf to broodlord viper. More unnecessary changes to units that no one asked for. Terrible patch overall.
Why does Blizzard not completely remove larva inject to be fair? Why does Protoss get buffs to compensate for removal of chrono boost while Terran gets nothing for removal of mules?
Because the mechanics are of different importance for their races and not "equally strong". Like anything in the game they are assymetric.
Larva inject is 60% of zerg's production. If you remove it, zerg loses out on 60% of their drones, 60% of their income. And 60% of their other unit production. They halve it so Zerg loses 30% of their current production already. Meanwhile even if you chronoboost as hard as you can (you can only chrono half of the time if you do it everytime you have 25energy) on your nexus it is 25% more probes and 25% of their income. 25% faster upgrades, 25% more unit production. For Terran the comparison is a bit harder because it's not a production but a direct income thing. But a mule makes for 28% more mineral income on a saturated base. And they even leave supply drops in the game whose value also make for like 10.4% of the mineral income of a saturated base. So Terran loses only ~18% income anyways (for as long as supply drops matter). I.e. taking out inject isn't "fair", it would remove zerg as playable race. Hatcheries on their own are outproduced by Nexi and CCs already because they have to produce overlords and - in the sense that they have to make the drones for - buildings too. A zerg would have to fit like 2 extra hatches into their build just to be able to keep up in production with a 2-3rax 1base terran...
I believe the solution they are going for isn't too bad of a starting point for keeping balance. If they removed inject larva alltogether they'd have to give zerg huge compensation buffs (or the other races huge nerfs). Obviously they could just buff hatcheries' larva production as compensation, but even that wouldn't be quite so easy because zerg wouldn't have to invest into that (queens cost money; just buffing hatches doesn't) and because it would also work in the 2mins before queens hit the field, e.g. hugely buff 12pools and similar stuff.
Anyone who claims with a high degree of certainty that 'their' race is nerfed, really misses the point.
I do think that overall 'let's tech straight to carrier/BC' is nerfef because it's just going to be so much slower, so easier for an opponent to scout and react. That's a good thing.
I also think that early zerg attacks that require little larva are relatively buffed (roach rush?). That's probably not as good.
How the hell are they going to release LotV in 2015? I mean, there's what 4½ months to go and the game does not seem even close to completion. How are they going to balance anything for the release? Such huge last minute changes...
They should've just brought back the reaver to begin with and removed the Colossus altogether how nerfed it's become. What's the point of keeping the Coloussus in the game when the Disruptor/Reaver can essentially do the same thing?
Been playing SC2 and SCBW for over 10 year now and it feels like this time Blizzard is trying too hard to completely re-invent/re-design Protoss after all the whinging from the community about 'Protoss imba'. Can't wait for LoTV release simply to see how bad Protoss has become. Ironic given this game was meant to be all about the Protoss race. Maybe when no Protoss wins any tournaments (like early SC2:WoL with the exception of MC), THEN people will wake up.
We want to have a clear difference between Zealots and Adepts. We believe Adepts are more effective than Zealots in large, extended engagements. Therefore, we wanted to look for a change that would make Zealots clearly better in harassment situations. However, because Zealot burst damage will be effective in direct engagements as well, we’ll be monitoring exactly when Zealots outperform Adepts and vice-versa.
So the adept takes the role of the zealot, but they want to change the zealot? I agree that the zealot and adept overlap a bit, but the zealot has had a role for 5 years, why change it rather than finding a niche for the new unit? The only change I'd suggest for the zealot is changing charge into just a speed increase (without the charge bit).
Rapid Deployment Medivac upgrade removed
New upgrade added: High Capacity Fuel Tanks - Increases the speed boost duration of Ignite Afterburners by 50%
The current upgrade for Medivacs is too big of an upgrade to the in-combat cases. We want to try out a buff that mostly affects the harassment and retreat cases. We’ll see how this new upgrade goes before we make a call on what to do in this area going forward.
Why do they keep buffing the medivac? It's already probably the strongest unit in the game. I hate that terran is being balanced around fast drop ships that can heal.
On August 21 2015 07:55 Cyro wrote: Spawn Larvae doesn't come into play until spawning pool and queen is done, i think most zerg players don't understand the impact of those first 2 mules giving you ~540 minerals or chroning workers at 10, 12, 14 supply.
Terran economy booster got removed completely without a buff. I always thought the mule should help out because you always have several scvs building stuff, therefore not mining. Removing it completely, not removing the others macro booster completely
Instead of getting 270 minerals from mule after a pretty big time delay, they have to use the 100-mineral-value instant supply drop. That provides both a safety net against supply blocks (even the best terrans can fuck up once or have depots focused/killed) and also, having the minerals earlier instead of after a 30 second delay can be very powerful - one of the strongest very early game terran all-ins used supply drop instead of mule in order to go to 3 rax without a second depot first, even when mule was available.
any zerg that has under droned because they mis-read someone's build knows the impact of not having as much economy as they should. missing 2 larva every inject is going to be painful when those used to be drones.
as for the terran side of things i totally agree with you. not having to build a 100 mineral structure every so often is going to be strong for terran players, especially weaker ones that get supply blocked..you no longer have to choose between spending it on that or a MULE which is pretty nice. and the extra energy for scans will be neat too
How are y'all doing vs reaper/hellion openings? I used to be able to defend with speedlings but now I don't seem to be able to get enough larva to rely on that anymore.
P.S. Been playing since WoL beta and for the first ever...... this flavor of SC2 isn't very much fun, imo obv.
On August 21 2015 10:40 Cyro wrote: Why more? lack of ling larvae?
Just an overall sense of lacking larva in general. So I am making more hatcheries and one queen per hatch.
It's also a bit funky to 'manage' your economy now. You don't have to injet, but you have to make sure your queen stays with your hatch (so if there is an attack and you need your queens to defend, you have to send them back afterwards), because if they are too far, they won't autoinject.
And there are hatcheries everywhere in my base. It's not not-fun, just really, really funky.
And really, forget everything about balance and build orders. Everything is different.
On August 21 2015 10:46 Joedaddy wrote: How are y'all doing vs reaper/hellion openings? I used to be able to defend with speedlings but now I don't seem to be able to get enough larva to rely on that anymore.
P.S. Been playing since WoL beta and for the first ever...... this flavor of SC2 isn't very much fun, imo obv.
Roaches have been useful. Less larva => more roaches.
On August 21 2015 03:59 purakushi wrote: Scan duration should be lowered slightly. Maybe down to 10 or 8 seconds. It is currently 12.3 seconds.
Yes seriously! Now with so many more scans available, DT play is basically worthless against T, ravens are needed less, zerg burrow etc. Should maybe even narrow the scan field as well.
The thing is that Terrans don't want Orbital Commands any longer. The only thing they give is Scan (unless that is automatic now). A normal CC can lift workers, a planetary can defend. I can see the case of having a natural planetary since you don't get mules.
On August 21 2015 03:59 purakushi wrote: Scan duration should be lowered slightly. Maybe down to 10 or 8 seconds. It is currently 12.3 seconds.
Yes seriously! Now with so many more scans available, DT play is basically worthless against T, ravens are needed less, zerg burrow etc. Should maybe even narrow the scan field as well.
The thing is that Terrans don't want Orbital Commands any longer. The only thing they give is Scan (unless that is automatic now). A normal CC can lift workers, a planetary can defend. I can see the case of having a natural planetary since you don't get mules.
Supply Drop is still very strong. Mule gives 270 minerals but it takes time and it takes those minerals from your base - unless you can continally expand very quickly for the entire game duration, muling will lower the amount of money that you get from your scv's
supply drop instantly generates 100 mineral equivelant out of nowhere with the main downside being that you're more vulnerable to having depots destroyed
On August 21 2015 03:59 purakushi wrote: Scan duration should be lowered slightly. Maybe down to 10 or 8 seconds. It is currently 12.3 seconds.
Yes seriously! Now with so many more scans available, DT play is basically worthless against T, ravens are needed less, zerg burrow etc. Should maybe even narrow the scan field as well.
The thing is that Terrans don't want Orbital Commands any longer. The only thing they give is Scan (unless that is automatic now). A normal CC can lift workers, a planetary can defend. I can see the case of having a natural planetary since you don't get mules.
Supply Drop is still very strong. Mule gives 270 minerals but it takes time and it takes those minerals from your base - unless you can continally expand very quickly for the entire game duration, muling will lower the amount of money that you get from your scv's
supply drop instantly generates 100 mineral equivelant out of nowhere with the main downside being that you're more vulnerable to having depots destroyed
I baneling busted a meching terran while he was out of his base. Killing 6 (12) depots almost instantly. That was fun.
On August 21 2015 07:44 Big J wrote: It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat)
That's all well and good, but at present, soO's just going to be staring at his A+moving army instead of at his base.
I'm flabbergasted by the Zealot change.
Just absolutely flabbergasted.
Let's go through this step-by-step.
PROBLEM: Protoss is the easiest race to master
EXAMPLE: Protoss mid/lategame harassment is extremely powerful but requires very little input; stopping the flow of Warp Prismed Zealots as your Terran bio gets caught out piecemeal is very punishing. Not only does it require little input, it provides no opportunities for a pro to distinguish himself if he wanted to (and he does).
SOLUTION: Make Protoss harassment more powerful by default with zero new input requirements! Make Warp Prisms warp Zealots in even faster! Lower the skill floor! Don't touch that skill ceiling!
On August 21 2015 03:59 purakushi wrote: Scan duration should be lowered slightly. Maybe down to 10 or 8 seconds. It is currently 12.3 seconds.
Yes seriously! Now with so many more scans available, DT play is basically worthless against T, ravens are needed less, zerg burrow etc. Should maybe even narrow the scan field as well.
The thing is that Terrans don't want Orbital Commands any longer. The only thing they give is Scan (unless that is automatic now). A normal CC can lift workers, a planetary can defend. I can see the case of having a natural planetary since you don't get mules.
Supply Drop is still very strong. Mule gives 270 minerals but it takes time and it takes those minerals from your base - unless you can continally expand very quickly for the entire game duration, muling will lower the amount of money that you get from your scv's
supply drop instantly generates 100 mineral equivelant out of nowhere with the main downside being that you're more vulnerable to having depots destroyed
Correct, I totally forgot about the drop. That has an end date on usefulness though. In a three CC opening the one put into the natural being a planetary is probably a good idea with these changes in TvZ and TvP. The supply drops aren't worth anything at 250 out of 200 max supply.
On August 21 2015 11:14 AdrianHealeyy wrote: Guys, stop with the balance complaints.
None of this is supposed to be balanced yet.
Hold on that thought the game is supposed to be released in 4½ months or so. I'm pretty sure we should be closer than this to figuring out if we should remove core mechanics or not. Especially since the new units have not yet been extensively play tested etc.
My legit concern is that there will be such a time period when LotV is released that I quit the game for good. Why can't the make a polished product with some professional feedback instead of randomly just trying to make the game cooler for newbies. Starcraft 2 is very interesting game as it is, so, why not have a plan or something instead of rushing it in panic.
On August 21 2015 03:59 purakushi wrote: Scan duration should be lowered slightly. Maybe down to 10 or 8 seconds. It is currently 12.3 seconds.
Yes seriously! Now with so many more scans available, DT play is basically worthless against T, ravens are needed less, zerg burrow etc. Should maybe even narrow the scan field as well.
The thing is that Terrans don't want Orbital Commands any longer. The only thing they give is Scan (unless that is automatic now). A normal CC can lift workers, a planetary can defend. I can see the case of having a natural planetary since you don't get mules.
Supply Drop is still very strong. Mule gives 270 minerals but it takes time and it takes those minerals from your base - unless you can continally expand very quickly for the entire game duration, muling will lower the amount of money that you get from your scv's
supply drop instantly generates 100 mineral equivelant out of nowhere with the main downside being that you're more vulnerable to having depots destroyed
Correct, I totally forgot about the drop. That has an end date on usefulness though. In a three CC opening the one put into the natural being a planetary is probably a good idea with these changes in TvZ and TvP. The supply drops aren't worth anything at 250 out of 200 max supply.
having a lot of scans is also incredibly useful because, lets say you scan a protoss player and don't really see anything in the main. you can still scan again without feeling like your economy will suffer if you do it. the intel you can receive is still super good too.
On August 21 2015 11:26 Ordained wrote: Well, this game was fun while it lasted. Pretty sure the zerg change is crippling at my low level.
At least I can watch streams.
lolwut? autocast inject is pretty much geared toward low level players.
there are a lot of zerg players that are used to having more larva at every point in the game and falling back on the larva from injects to account for mistakes when scouting or if they lose all their lings for something stupid.
These guys have seriously no idea what to do anymore.
The game need better and more micro, and they keep going with the "terrible damage" politic by adding 30 instant dmg to the zealot. Balance is the last of the problems, they should freaking fix the core. Will they even learn? Ofc not. Jeeezzz...
I'm tentatively liking this on the whole, but I feel that Queens should spawn with ~20-22 energy, so that it's easier to prevent them from auto-injecting right away and open up more strategies oriented around really fast creep spread.
Personally I do not approve the autocast inject, however I do approve of the -2 larva change. The real problem with autocast is that they don't really nerf the zerg (excluding early and early-mid game) because over time you naturally skip inject cycles to do other things, meaning that for zerg it does not really slow down the production or economy at all, in fact I would go as far as to say it boosts it after a certain point in time while other 2 races lose their boosters.
Zerg action spending will now be distributed between army / micro / creepspread and overall you'll be able to be a lot more aggressive since macro will never suffer because of it, which I personally do not believe is a good design. If terran or protoss have even one unfavored engagement in lategame, zerg will easily be able to snowball just as they could prior to the inject changes so that doesn't really change anything.
One thing that also bugs me is that queens have auto-inject enabled when they pop out of hatchery, which means it doesn't give me a choice to put down creep tumor or save for transfuse if necessary versus some early game cheese.
so many dumb changes. The macro mechanic changes really need to be tested before we can make conclusions, but the extra nexus supply and the notification change are definitely nice. Hate the zealot change. are you serious? Why not change it to leg speed? Charge with burst damage is an attempt to make zealot runbys crazy strong, but it's better to make harass less yolo. Especially with the warp in changes... Don't really get the cyclone changes, I think if anything mech now needs a goliath equivalent, so a strong anti air option. Weak anti air is like... eh?
Most of the small build timings are hard to evaluate in a vaccum, and basically need to be tested with progamers developing builds, trying to break the game, to determine if they are good changes or not. It's practically impossible for the rest of us (whose strategic abilities, experience, and time invested in actually playing the game at a high level are just lacking) to make informed arguments about these smaller sort of changes.
On August 21 2015 11:26 Ordained wrote: Well, this game was fun while it lasted. Pretty sure the zerg change is crippling at my low level.
At least I can watch streams.
played a bunch of games; from a lowbie perspective the game got so much more easier, really. You can expand much faster, since your focus is now on completely different things. Creep spread is much better too.
I do macro hatches a lot earlier, and it pays off a lot.
Making queens auto-cast just seems weird to me. Now it seems not enough larvae, and if you bring your queen up for defense they auto turn back for the nearest hatches, I donno about this... Wish there was some sort of middle ground.. Maybe have a queens inject last 2 spawn cycles or something so that it requires less tending to, ie more accessible to beginners, allow for more larvae and not have queens randomly wander back to hatches
On August 21 2015 12:33 mishimaBeef wrote: i have one thing to say about this patch:
fucking brilliant
I am zerg and i hate it, zerg macro is way, way too easy now in comparison to the other races
Maybe. I'm a horrible player, and played one game of Zerg after not having touched it for awhile now with the new mechanic. Added a macro hatch, all the hatches pumping out queens. Mineral lines were saturated across four bases pretty quick.
But that's just a first impression from a bad player. Let's see what pros do with it.
This is awesome and I love the way the new production is based, but heres one thing that's kind of ruining this for me a bit that I feel needs to be fixed like, immediately.
Turn the autocast off, please, Zerg macro is painfully retard easy, this is not the way to do it, do not enable autocast on this ability.
Oh, and I'm a Zerg player, change this crap like quickly and buff Zerg in another meaningful way when autocast is removed, the Protoss changes were really nice, give Zerg and Terran some similar ones and I really think it's going to add alot of magic back to the game.
On August 21 2015 07:44 Big J wrote: It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat)
That's all well and good, but at present, soO's just going to be staring at his A+moving army instead of at his base.
I'm flabbergasted by the Zealot change.
Just absolutely flabbergasted.
Let's go through this step-by-step.
PROBLEM: Protoss is the easiest race to master
EXAMPLE: Protoss mid/lategame harassment is extremely powerful but requires very little input; stopping the flow of Warp Prismed Zealots as your Terran bio gets caught out piecemeal is very punishing. Not only does it require little input, it provides no opportunities for a pro to distinguish himself if he wanted to (and he does).
SOLUTION: Make Protoss harassment more powerful by default with zero new input requirements! Make Warp Prisms warp Zealots in even faster! Lower the skill floor! Don't touch that skill ceiling!
I... just... what?
yea ok, except i need separate hotkeys for adepts, hts, stalkers, phoenixs, oracles and disruptors because theyre all high tier micro units w/ abilities (and im not even counting lower tier micro units like sentrys, immortals, voids and tempests).. on top of that i need to hotkey shit like my warpprism and mothership core, but yea protoss is an a-move race right?
sry bro but you have no idea what you're talking about. lotv protoss is by far the most micro intensive and hotkey intensive race, not even close.
On August 21 2015 12:42 jpg06051992 wrote: This is awesome and I love the way the new production is based, but heres one thing that's kind of ruining this for me a bit that I feel needs to be fixed like, immediately.
Turn the autocast off, please, Zerg macro is painfully retard easy, this is not the way to do it, do not enable autocast on this ability.
Oh, and I'm a Zerg player, change this crap like quickly and buff Zerg in another meaningful way when autocast is removed, the Protoss changes were really nice, give Zerg and Terran some similar ones and I really think it's going to add alot of magic back to the game.
agreed. I LOVE that chrono and mules are gone, but this isn't right. Feels like I'm playing on easy mode.
On August 21 2015 12:42 jpg06051992 wrote: This is awesome and I love the way the new production is based, but heres one thing that's kind of ruining this for me a bit that I feel needs to be fixed like, immediately.
Turn the autocast off, please, Zerg macro is painfully retard easy, this is not the way to do it, do not enable autocast on this ability.
Oh, and I'm a Zerg player, change this crap like quickly and buff Zerg in another meaningful way when autocast is removed, the Protoss changes were really nice, give Zerg and Terran some similar ones and I really think it's going to add alot of magic back to the game.
agreed. I LOVE that chrono and mules are gone, but this isn't right. Feels like I'm playing on easy mode.
Yea making Zerg macro easy mode is just plain dumb, not sure how they figured it wouldn't be that way after "lots of internal testing" but it's really terrible, I want to out macro my opponents not have the game do half the work for me.
On August 21 2015 07:44 Big J wrote: It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat)
That's all well and good, but at present, soO's just going to be staring at his A+moving army instead of at his base.
I'm flabbergasted by the Zealot change.
Just absolutely flabbergasted.
Let's go through this step-by-step.
PROBLEM: Protoss is the easiest race to master
EXAMPLE: Protoss mid/lategame harassment is extremely powerful but requires very little input; stopping the flow of Warp Prismed Zealots as your Terran bio gets caught out piecemeal is very punishing. Not only does it require little input, it provides no opportunities for a pro to distinguish himself if he wanted to (and he does).
SOLUTION: Make Protoss harassment more powerful by default with zero new input requirements! Make Warp Prisms warp Zealots in even faster! Lower the skill floor! Don't touch that skill ceiling!
I... just... what?
yea ok, except i need seperate hotkeys for adepts, hts, stalkers, phoenixs, oracles and disruptors because theyre all high tier micro units w/ abilities (and im not even counting lower tier micro units like sentrys, immortals, voids and tempests).. on top of that i need to hotkey shit like my warpprism and mothership core, but yea protoss is an a-move race right?
sry bro but you have no idea what you're talking about. lotv protoss is by far the most micro intensive and hotkey intensive race, not even close.
Hey, nothing would make me happier than you being right.
To help me gauge your perspective, would you say that in HOTS Protoss takes more mechanical skill than Terran on average? About the same? Slightly less? A lot less? Abysmally less?
On August 21 2015 07:44 Big J wrote: It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat)
That's all well and good, but at present, soO's just going to be staring at his A+moving army instead of at his base.
I'm flabbergasted by the Zealot change.
Just absolutely flabbergasted.
Let's go through this step-by-step.
PROBLEM: Protoss is the easiest race to master
EXAMPLE: Protoss mid/lategame harassment is extremely powerful but requires very little input; stopping the flow of Warp Prismed Zealots as your Terran bio gets caught out piecemeal is very punishing. Not only does it require little input, it provides no opportunities for a pro to distinguish himself if he wanted to (and he does).
SOLUTION: Make Protoss harassment more powerful by default with zero new input requirements! Make Warp Prisms warp Zealots in even faster! Lower the skill floor! Don't touch that skill ceiling!
I... just... what?
yea ok, except i need seperate hotkeys for adepts, hts, stalkers, phoenixs, oracles and disruptors because theyre all high tier micro units w/ abilities (and im not even counting lower tier micro units like sentrys, immortals, voids and tempests).. on top of that i need to hotkey shit like my warpprism and mothership core, but yea protoss is an a-move race right?
sry bro but you have no idea what you're talking about. lotv protoss is by far the most micro intensive and hotkey intensive race, not even close.
Hey, nothing would make me happier than you being right.
To help me gauge your perspective, would you say that in HOTS Protoss takes more mechanical skill than Terran on average? About the same? Slightly less? A lot less? Abysmally less?
obviously less, the colossus made it that way but that unit is unusable in legacy. different game, MUCH different units.
omg ,,,with this patch,,,lotv is actually looking to be in a semi half quasi ersatz proxy bi-measure bifurcated decent place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On August 21 2015 12:33 mishimaBeef wrote: i have one thing to say about this patch:
fucking brilliant
I am zerg and i hate it, zerg macro is way, way too easy now in comparison to the other races
I don't understand this kind of attitude. What do you mean it's too easy?
Like before there was a challenge and now you got a chance to play on GSL level?
What's so wrong with things being easier? It's not like you are going from amateur level to pro level just because Blizzard removes your APM sink.
It's not just removing an APM sink, it's making macro way too easy, Terran and Protoss shouldn't have more mechanically demanding macro then Zerg, with the new autocast I can spread creep a whole league above what I normally can and I have twice the amount of larvae that I ever had without it lol
"Like before there was a challenge and now you got a chance to play on GSL level?
Wow, really? Rofl yea that's exactly what he meant I'm sure.
it's really interesting this notion that now Zerg macro is easier than the other races when it was common knowledge that Zerg always had the the highest macro needs of the three races, if anything all three races are now closer together Zerg prob still has the problem of still needing to manage more bases and creep spreading, Zerg also as no queues.
This idea that the only thing that made Zerg macro hard was injecting is pure nonsense imo.
On August 21 2015 07:44 Big J wrote: It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat)
That's all well and good, but at present, soO's just going to be staring at his A+moving army instead of at his base.
I'm flabbergasted by the Zealot change.
Just absolutely flabbergasted.
Let's go through this step-by-step.
PROBLEM: Protoss is the easiest race to master
EXAMPLE: Protoss mid/lategame harassment is extremely powerful but requires very little input; stopping the flow of Warp Prismed Zealots as your Terran bio gets caught out piecemeal is very punishing. Not only does it require little input, it provides no opportunities for a pro to distinguish himself if he wanted to (and he does).
SOLUTION: Make Protoss harassment more powerful by default with zero new input requirements! Make Warp Prisms warp Zealots in even faster! Lower the skill floor! Don't touch that skill ceiling!
I... just... what?
yea ok, except i need seperate hotkeys for adepts, hts, stalkers, phoenixs, oracles and disruptors because theyre all high tier micro units w/ abilities (and im not even counting lower tier micro units like sentrys, immortals, voids and tempests).. on top of that i need to hotkey shit like my warpprism and mothership core, but yea protoss is an a-move race right?
sry bro but you have no idea what you're talking about. lotv protoss is by far the most micro intensive and hotkey intensive race, not even close.
Hey, nothing would make me happier than you being right.
To help me gauge your perspective, would you say that in HOTS Protoss takes more mechanical skill than Terran on average? About the same? Slightly less? A lot less? Abysmally less?
obviously less, the colossus made it that way but that unit is unusable in legacy. different game, MUCH different units.
I have my doubts that replacing the Colossus with a harder to use unit single-handedly solves the mechanical disparity, in particular because Zealot runbys are still as easy to perform but now more powerful than ever, the MSC still defends your expansion with the press of one button (tomorrow can't come fast enough), and unmicroed Adepts are a hard counter to early bio.
So when you say that Protoss is the most micro intensive race in LOTV, I have to wonder if that isn't in large part because the race is still unequipped to play a LOTV-style expansion game. And when the balancing stage of the beta rolls around, and Protoss gets the buffs that are inevitably on their way, will the micro requirement remain as demanding as you find it now? That's where I have my doubts.
On August 21 2015 14:43 Bazik wrote: it's really interesting this notion that now Zerg macro is easier than the other races when it was common knowledge that Zerg always had the the highest macro needs of the three races, if anything all three races are now closer together Zerg prob still has the problem of still needing to manage more bases and creep spreading, Zerg also as no queues.
This idea that the only thing that made Zerg macro hard was injecting is pure nonsense imo.
The problem isn't that Zerg macro is so easy, the problem is that Zerg micro is so easy that their macro has to be significantly harder to make up for it.
I'm liking the changes overall! The zealot charge and cyclone though need to be looked at a bit. The thing is the Macro mechanics addition was a band aid to this easing of macro. However they just made things worse in WoL and HoTS! To make a game better the first step is recognizing the problem and removing it which is good. This atleast gives a good base on which to build a game around! However maybe something can be done to make it harder! I don't think going back to the old macro mechanics is the answer! In fact I agree that even the zerg larva inject should be removed. Imposing artificial limits on a game to just make it harder is not the answer also! Maybe the community can come up with newer ideas for this and we have already seen that Blizzard is willing to listen this time around...
It's so weird not being able to chronoboost after all those years. But it seems fine so far. I like the damage on the zealots.
The disruptor feels way better, but I think the projectile needs to be slower, but it also last a bit longer. Now it's really fast and makes it hard for any reaction on the opponents part I think.
LOTV was already awkward with so many gimmick things, now i simply see no reason of playing it. I hope KOR scene stay on HOTS for long like when Blizzard release a bad map pool and KOR tournaments stay on the old map.
so far it feels pretty good on the terran end of things. i've had to make a couple adjustments to my build orders, but overall i like the pacing that i've found to get my tvz mech build up and running.
i did lose to a warp prism adept all in though, so i gotta figure out the timing on that one XD
So sad, the game was so good outside of a few minor balance issues before. It was fast, fun, and now it just feels slow and boring IMO. I'm really hoping these get reverted. I like all the other stuff but the macro removal was probably the worst change ever.
Worst part is, not only is it less fun to me, but the balance is going to be off for ages.
On August 21 2015 07:44 Big J wrote: It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat)
That's all well and good, but at present, soO's just going to be staring at his A+moving army instead of at his base.
I'm flabbergasted by the Zealot change.
Just absolutely flabbergasted.
Let's go through this step-by-step.
PROBLEM: Protoss is the easiest race to master
EXAMPLE: Protoss mid/lategame harassment is extremely powerful but requires very little input; stopping the flow of Warp Prismed Zealots as your Terran bio gets caught out piecemeal is very punishing. Not only does it require little input, it provides no opportunities for a pro to distinguish himself if he wanted to (and he does).
SOLUTION: Make Protoss harassment more powerful by default with zero new input requirements! Make Warp Prisms warp Zealots in even faster! Lower the skill floor! Don't touch that skill ceiling!
I... just... what?
yea ok, except i need seperate hotkeys for adepts, hts, stalkers, phoenixs, oracles and disruptors because theyre all high tier micro units w/ abilities (and im not even counting lower tier micro units like sentrys, immortals, voids and tempests).. on top of that i need to hotkey shit like my warpprism and mothership core, but yea protoss is an a-move race right?
sry bro but you have no idea what you're talking about. lotv protoss is by far the most micro intensive and hotkey intensive race, not even close.
Hey, nothing would make me happier than you being right.
To help me gauge your perspective, would you say that in HOTS Protoss takes more mechanical skill than Terran on average? About the same? Slightly less? A lot less? Abysmally less?
obviously less, the colossus made it that way but that unit is unusable in legacy. different game, MUCH different units.
I have my doubts that replacing the Colossus with a harder to use unit single-handedly solves the mechanical disparity, in particular because Zealot runbys are still as easy to perform but now more powerful than ever, the MSC still defends your expansion with the press of one button (tomorrow can't come fast enough), and unmicroed Adepts are a hard counter to early bio.
So when you say that Protoss is the most micro intensive race in LOTV, I have to wonder if that isn't in large part because the race is still unequipped to play a LOTV-style expansion game. And when the balancing stage of the beta rolls around, and Protoss gets the buffs that are inevitably on their way, will the micro requirement remain as demanding as you find it now? That's where I have my doubts.
in hots protoss could deal with bio mine comps and drops by going stalker colossus (into chargelot archon eventually) which was an easy, a-movey comp, all it took was 2 control groups to micro that army properly. in legacy you have to deal with bio mine/drops AND liberators by going for phoenix based compositions (phoenix + sentry + adept + disruptors, that right there is is at least 4 control groups for a standard pvt comp) which is WAY more micro intensive, its a whole different ball game.
tvp army compositions are completely different in legacy.. and this is coming from someone whos been rank 1 gm in legacy several times already (even tho thats not saying much but i think i still have a decent grasp of the game).
anywho zerg is benefiting the most (by far) from the current patch, the ai is basically playing the game for them.. which is pretty ridiculous. i dont think we want sc2 to be heading in that direction.
On August 21 2015 14:43 Bazik wrote: it's really interesting this notion that now Zerg macro is easier than the other races when it was common knowledge that Zerg always had the the highest macro needs of the three races, if anything all three races are now closer together Zerg prob still has the problem of still needing to manage more bases and creep spreading, Zerg also as no queues.
This idea that the only thing that made Zerg macro hard was injecting is pure nonsense imo.
Zerg had higher macro needs than the other two races? LOL
With this update, Blizzard managed to add auto-cruise mode for the zerg car model. But wait! There's already a new upgrade in the works for zerg car model that will include autonomous mode, that will let the exitsting zerg car owners to just sit in their chairs and relax while the onboard computer is doing the driving between win and win.
Anyway, Blizzard never cease to surprise me, in the worst way..
Why cyclones attack air only with lockdown? Why disruptors still have it as "ability" instead of normal attack? Like every time I want the disruptor to attack I need to select it and ask it to fire there.
We want the disruptor to be in the back and attack the enemy from distance while Protoss micro his other units and the enemy microing to avoid disruptor hits and other stuff.
Where are the 2 different attacks for the cyclones you talked about? It still have 1 single attack and only the damage from lockdown is different, why are we forcing the lockdown role instead of AA specialist?
uhm... so we have a game with 3 races that are completely different not only in the units they have but also in the way their economy works that is, relatively speaking, really well balanced. And now we just decide to remove a huge chunk of these economical differences while also throwing the game into a huge state of imbalance? Blizzard should try to make the game good and good at what it is instead of trying to get the moba audience to watch/play starcraft 2
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
Yeah, i played a little bit and the impression is that Zerg macro is almost non existent. Something has to be added to increase the difficulty for Zerg macro.
The disruptor redesign feels like Blizzard slowly and steadily trying to design a unit that will, in 6 months, be called reaver and be the exact same unit.
On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote: Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it.
On August 21 2015 17:06 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, i played a little bit and the impression is that Zerg macro is almost non existent. Something has to be added to increase the difficulty for Zerg macro.
As I wrote in another thread:
I would say, just wait and see how things will turn out. The patch isn't even out for a day and everyone starts talking how things are too easy now and units aren't balanced. When everything has settled down a bit, protoss and terrans got buffed, you will perhaps be happy that the macro for zergs is easier now because you have to defend from harrass and other things with less larva than before.
Blizzard wants to make this game more casual friendly and now everyone wants to make this game harder again.
On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote: Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it.
Why does this hurt you? Can't you focus more on the other aspects of the game now?
On August 21 2015 17:08 Ragnarork wrote: The disruptor redesign feels like Blizzard slowly and steadily trying to design a unit that will, in 6 months, be called reaver and be the exact same unit.
Congratz, you've invented the past.
Just like how it took them 13 years to restore the lost technology of automated tournaments in Warcraft III
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote: Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it.
Do you watch userstream right now? SortOf is streaming right now. nonstop battles! 3min no fight is very rare now! changing something with mules/chrono/inject is by far the best thing blizzard did. I wished they did it in WoL beta.
On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote: Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it.
Do you watch userstream right now? SortOf is streaming right now. nonstop battles! 3min no fight is very rare now! changing something with mules/chrono/inject is by far the best thing blii did. I wished they did it in WoL beta.
Haha, yeah started watching streams right now. (also SortOf since VIBE just went off). It looks so much better watching a zerg stream already and he is even automatically going back to injecting without effect...
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Gotta say that my patch day play has been ruined a bit with my graphics card beginning to stutter, but I feel like 3cc no longer works for Terran as Bio. Rax 2 and 3 feels like a better play in order to avoid overtaxing your production into the midgame.
Where in a build order are our Terrans putting down the 3rd CC against conservative Protoss and Zerg players?
On August 21 2015 17:06 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, i played a little bit and the impression is that Zerg macro is almost non existent. Something has to be added to increase the difficulty for Zerg macro.
As I wrote in another thread:
I would say, just wait and see how things will turn out. The patch isn't even out for a day and everyone starts talking how things are too easy now and units aren't balanced. When everything has settled down a bit, protoss and terrans got buffed, you will perhaps be happy that the macro for zergs is easier now because you have to defend from harrass and other things with less larva than before.
Blizzard wants to make this game more casual friendly and now everyone wants to make this game harder again.
If they simplify another races to the same level, that could work too
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Also the interesting part about this - in Zerg Campaign is no inject! Which shows a little bit how they feel about injects for casuals :-)
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
EDIT: the funny part is, it's not just easy now, but it's boring not having stuff to do; i doubt this is a direction they want to go
On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote: Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it.
Why does this hurt you? Can't you focus more on the other aspects of the game now?
Like what, holding down A key to build drone, spreading creep and... Well, no that's it. There are absolutely 0 macro to do for zerg except spreading creep and not being supply block.
If that's the direction they want to go then they could add auto-production to terran and protoss rax/gateway because it is exactly the same level of dumbing down the game, so just put the rax on auto-production so they keep building marines/maraudeurs and so on without having to reselect the rax at each production cycle.
But a game like this... I'm out. So long Starcraft, and thank you for the fish!
LOL what the fuck did they do with the immortal model ??? (produce an immortal in game, maybe on low settings, to understand)
Otherwise the warp-in change really sucks at least aesthetically and elegance wise. Don't tell me all those circles aren't confusing.
Haven't played enough to have an opinion about the other changes, but removal of chrono does not feel so strange. Autocast is stupid per se, but the toning down of macro mechanics is a step in the right direction, most definitely. Just have hatcheries produce slightly more larvae, lairs and hives producing at a higher rate, and encourage Z players to have macro hatches. Creep, transfuse, and early air/ranged defence are enough of an incentive for any Z player to get queens without that dumb autocast thing.
On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote: Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it.
Do you watch userstream right now? SortOf is streaming right now. nonstop battles! 3min no fight is very rare now! changing something with mules/chrono/inject is by far the best thing blizzard did. I wished they did it in WoL beta.
That is amazing, and the result I was hoping for. These macro mechanics which only takes focus away from fights are horrible, and glad Blizz takes action to solve it.
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
I personally have no problem with removing / toning down macro mechanics, but I do have a problem with autoinject, just by principle. Just set hatcheries to produce larvae at a slightly faster rate by default and balance accordingly. Lairs and hives producing more larvae is something that has been discussed for a long time in the community and could be tested too.
On August 21 2015 17:22 LoneYoShi wrote: So many low-post-count people whining in this thread, it's incredible. The patch hasn't even been out for a day...
I can't wait to try it out though !
I don't understand why we need a ton of time to figure out if we like this change or not. It's not like it's become more complex, it's become less complex. It's really easy to figure out if you'll like the changes or not, even with balance aside. I personally find it less enjoyable to even play, game feels slow, and recovering from any SCV losses drags the game on much longer than it previously did.
Game is slower with less to do, huge negative in my book.
Just played 2 games as zerg. Its so much more fun without inject larva. Macro is now a ton easier and it makes it possible to focus more on controlling units and thus reduces the probability of you dying to stupid burrowed widow mines or other frustrating situations.
I'll add that I'm very comfortable with removing injects because they added zero depth. In any circumstance, injecting is better than doing anything else. But the MULE/scan duality always felt interesting to me, and as a P player I know how chrono usage could be refined to the extreme. I wish they removed injects altogether (with boosted standard hatchery prod) but kept toned down versions of MULEs and chronos.
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
After playing some games I still hate auto-inject.
My game-rhythm and flow are gone, I don't know what to do with my hands and I feel slower than normal, because injecting got my hand speed up in the early game. I practiced hard to get good at injecting and that has all been for nothing now... meh... Also Queens are stopping to attack, because inject is their priority - could get quite annoying in tense situations.
On August 21 2015 18:05 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'll add that I'm very comfortable with removing injects because they added zero depth. In any circumstance, injecting is better than doing anything else. But the MULE/scan duality always felt interesting to me, and as a P player I know how chrono usage could be refined to the extreme. I wish they removed injects altogether (with boosted standard hatchery prod) but kept toned down versions of MULEs and chronos.
What about reducing the effect of injects while increasing the amount of larvae hatcherys spawn by themselves, so that inject is still in the game but there are situations where you actually have to make a decision and inject is not always the correct answer?
On August 21 2015 18:05 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'll add that I'm very comfortable with removing injects because they added zero depth. In any circumstance, injecting is better than doing anything else. But the MULE/scan duality always felt interesting to me, and as a P player I know how chrono usage could be refined to the extreme. I wish they removed injects altogether (with boosted standard hatchery prod) but kept toned down versions of MULEs and chronos.
Why isn't autoinject more interesting? It leaves the strategical depth around sniping queens and pulling queens for other tasks such as defense. It also is much easier to balance than just buffing hatcheries to a level where it competes with the 150mineral investment and build time (this is a huge component! Without the necessity to build queens you can rush a lair at and have mutas by 4mins!)
Additionally, nerfed inject means that it now has a bit of a a decision. I remember that back in 2011 and even in gasless ZvZ builds in 2013 I would sometimes use my first queen at the natural for a creep tumor. (something I eventually gave up on because 4drones is just better) With 2 larva injects (and mules/chrono gone) I can very well see such decisions making it a bit into the game.
On August 21 2015 18:09 TheOneAboveU wrote: After playing some games I still hate auto-inject.
My game-rhythm and flow are gone, I don't know what to do with my hands and I feel slower than normal, because injecting got my hand speed up in the early game. I practiced hard to get good at injecting and that has all been for nothing now... meh... Also Queens are stopping to attack, because inject is their priority - could get quite annoying in tense situations.
After playing some games on ladder with protoss I'm so sad that im about to cry, like srsly how the fuck can fuck the race so badly... this is insane... and the lower WG reserch is supposed to save us? or a 10 sec faster distruptor, that is even weaker now than before... I though i will have nice time playing with new distruptor and new changes but its unplayable thats how bad protoss is now... Playing protoss feels like playing football without legs i guees we have a nice looking ball....
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
My own bias lol. Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros. The only real mechanical difficulty was for Zerg, and that's because without it there is a very sharp discrepancy between P/T and Z macro.
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
My own bias lol. Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros. The only real mechanical difficulty was for Zerg, and that's because without it there is a very sharp discrepancy between P/T and Z macro.
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
My own bias lol. Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros. The only real mechanical difficulty was for Zerg, and that's because without it there is a very sharp discrepancy between P/T and Z macro.
That's what I mean with "your own bias".
I don't know about why they added inject in the first place, but without it it is true that production of units/drones are extremely easy for zerg and without inject Zerg feels stupidly easy macro-wise.
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
My own bias lol. Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros. The only real mechanical difficulty was for Zerg, and that's because without it there is a very sharp discrepancy between P/T and Z macro.
That's what I mean with "your own bias".
Funny how you highlight that but not the part where i said "Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros." Bias much? lol
Zerg macro definitely should feel easier but the main macro mechanics for zerg is creep spread, production with creep spread is just as easy as other race macro
producing units at zerg is as afk as T and P now. Exactly this is supposed to be. I really hated to inject DURING a fight, otherwise P and T outmacroing Z easily at Lategame.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
My own bias lol. Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros. The only real mechanical difficulty was for Zerg, and that's because without it there is a very sharp discrepancy between P/T and Z macro.
That's what I mean with "your own bias".
I don't know about why they added inject in the first place, but without it it is true that production of units/drones are extremely easy for zerg and without inject Zerg feels stupidly easy macro-wise.
And that's the whole point of the change. Let me be clear, I've played a lot of Terran in the past 3years and my main motive has always been because the race allowed me to focus much harder on controlling my units. (Protoss allows that too, but with Protoss being on the map has always been strategically iffy)
If blizzard brings this to zerg with this patch I couldn't be happier. Whose macro is easier or harder in the end I don't care, what I care about is HOW the macro part plays out. And I definitely think that being able to postpone your barracks explosion and mule dropping for nothing but an opportunity cost to focus a little longer on unit control is much more pleasant than "DO IT NOW OR LOSE OUT ON UNITS FOREVER"-injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
My own bias lol. Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros. The only real mechanical difficulty was for Zerg, and that's because without it there is a very sharp discrepancy between P/T and Z macro.
That's what I mean with "your own bias".
Funny how you highlight that but not the part where i said "Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros." Bias much? lol
So your overall standpoint is that it's equally hard? Otherwise I don't see why you would even bring this up. If I missread I'm sorry, but to me it sounded like you wanted to say that zerg is now too easy.
On August 21 2015 18:05 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'll add that I'm very comfortable with removing injects because they added zero depth. In any circumstance, injecting is better than doing anything else. But the MULE/scan duality always felt interesting to me, and as a P player I know how chrono usage could be refined to the extreme. I wish they removed injects altogether (with boosted standard hatchery prod) but kept toned down versions of MULEs and chronos.
Why isn't autoinject more interesting? It leaves the strategical depth around sniping queens and pulling queens for other tasks such as defense. It also is much easier to balance than just buffing hatcheries to a level where it competes with the 150mineral investment and build time (this is a huge component! Without the necessity to build queens you can rush a lair at and have mutas by 4mins!)
Additionally, nerfed inject means that it now has a bit of a a decision. I remember that back in 2011 and even in gasless ZvZ builds in 2013 I would sometimes use my first queen at the natural for a creep tumor. (something I eventually gave up on because 4drones is just better) With 2 larva injects (and mules/chrono gone) I can very well see such decisions making it a bit into the game.
Because it's an automated task and it opens all sorts of doors I wanna leave closed. And with how Proleague still forbids automated worker rally at start of the game, do you really think they'll be comfortable with autoinjects ? This is a very dangerous idea.
While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this. From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless
On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote: While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this. From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless
Far too early to tell. Disruptors still don't hit air, allowing you to pick siege tanks up. And you can focus it, hence killing the energy ball. I think it should be fine, modulo balance tweaks. Design is far better than the invulnerable bullshit.
To be clear, i'm not saying inject was fun, not even slightly. But there needs to be some new macro mechanic added to Zerg to bring some sort of skill to this aspect of the race. Maybe make creep spread more difficult or add something new; not as tedious and punishing as inject. Or maybe it will be fine, but that's just my reaction now.
On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote: While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this. From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless
So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right!
Hahahaha I played one game as Zerg, I'm not really good at Zerg but it's ridiculously easy now to have literally perfect creep spread and macro. If it stays like this we will all be either playing ZvZ or Zerg units would be nerfed into the ground to keep it balanced. Either way the skill cap is lowered to the ground. Happy now low level players?
On August 21 2015 18:05 [PkF] Wire wrote: I'll add that I'm very comfortable with removing injects because they added zero depth. In any circumstance, injecting is better than doing anything else. But the MULE/scan duality always felt interesting to me, and as a P player I know how chrono usage could be refined to the extreme. I wish they removed injects altogether (with boosted standard hatchery prod) but kept toned down versions of MULEs and chronos.
Why isn't autoinject more interesting? It leaves the strategical depth around sniping queens and pulling queens for other tasks such as defense. It also is much easier to balance than just buffing hatcheries to a level where it competes with the 150mineral investment and build time (this is a huge component! Without the necessity to build queens you can rush a lair at and have mutas by 4mins!)
Additionally, nerfed inject means that it now has a bit of a a decision. I remember that back in 2011 and even in gasless ZvZ builds in 2013 I would sometimes use my first queen at the natural for a creep tumor. (something I eventually gave up on because 4drones is just better) With 2 larva injects (and mules/chrono gone) I can very well see such decisions making it a bit into the game.
Because it's an automated task and it opens all sorts of doors I wanna leave closed. And with how Proleague still forbids automated worker rally at start of the game, do you really think they'll be comfortable with autoinjects ? This is a very dangerous idea.
There is autorepair in the game, autocast on lock-on, medivac heal and interceptor building. And those are just the abilities that blizzard shows you that it is an autocast feature through a button that has a special autocast frame.
Beyond that there are tons and tons of automated abilities/features in the game, starting with workers having their return cargo on autocast after acquiring resources to idle aggro stances for uncontrolled units with an attack and idle "run away" stances for units without an attack. We have combined orders such as attack-move or patrol so that you don't have to give every order and we have smartcast behaviours turned on and off on spellcasters depending on what feels like the better solution for each spell. The whole concept of right click is a bigass smartcast macro feature that automates your decision.
If it is a dangerous path we are already going it since WC1 or earlier. Proleague's decision to not autmatically workerrally is also just a visual bone thrown for BW nostalgics without a real gameplay implication.
On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote: While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this. From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless
So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right!
You cannot kill it as the energy ball comes from darkness outside tank range. Anything slow or static will die vs good toss players
On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote: While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this. From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless
So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right!
You cannot kill it as the energy ball comes from darkness outside tank range. Anything slow or static will die vs good toss players
Outside of tank vision or tank range? Pretty important difference there~ I can't play til later and literally nobody AFAIK has posted a video showing how the mechanic works. I assumed it was just like reaver, but reavers can't really siege tank lines in BW.
Zealot charge dealing 30 damage on hit? Holy shit this is going to be god damn powerful. Once protoss gets charge zerglings and marines would stand no chance, and even large units might be easily taken down with charge. I would love to see how OP this will turn out to be.
The only problem I have with this is that the reward from charge (30 instant damage) seems too much for the amount of micro; You just a-move and let the zealots do the work. I would still love to see zealot speed and charge upgrade being split up (and maintaining the pre-nerf speedlot speed), and having the zealot charge be an activity ability similar to Kerrigan's psionic shift, except that it damages the first target it runs into and stops there. This would at least encourage players to spread out their zealots and promote positional play.
Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
On August 21 2015 19:15 Estancia wrote: Zealot charge dealing 30 damage on hit? Holy shit this is going to be god damn powerful. Once protoss gets charge zerglings and marines would stand no chance, and even large units might be easily taken down with charge. I would love to see how OP this will turn out to be.
The only problem I have with this is that the reward from charge (30 instant damage) seems too much for the amount of micro; You just a-move and let the zealots do the work. I would still love to see zealot speed and charge upgrade being split up (and maintaining the pre-nerf speedlot speed), and having the zealot charge be an activity ability similar to Kerrigan's psionic shift, except that it damages the first target it runs into and stops there. This would at least encourage players to spread out their zealots and promote positional play.
I actually experiemnted alot with any type of "manual charge" ability in various types of shape for the Zealot. But in the end it just doesn't work as it ends up feeling like random button-pressing (like Immortal shield) rather than something which requires thought and precision (I guess Psy Storm is an example of that type of ability).
The best solution is to just make the Zealot much faster by default (as in BW).
On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote: Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote: Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote: Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote: Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
Wut???
2 larvas per inject now. not 4 like we had. I had always nearly 0 energy queens until Lategame. I mean if zerg want to attack/defense in early or mid game.
On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote: Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
You are wrong though, in theory having less larva does indeed does not allow you to produce as much units as before, but the loss of Mules and chronoboost also reduces terrans and protoss production, and in the end all of this will be balanced out. Design wise, on the other hand, playing Zerg has been extremely simplified.
Because of these changes the dynamic game desired by blizzard slowed considerably, Without mule Terran simply can not compete economically with other races and especially versus Zerg, All the game we have the feeling of not being able to produce correctly, always running out of money and could not keep the pace of the game, i think the game was really fun and dynamics before this patch, there was so many possibility of multitask and producing in the same time now the macro terran cant survive with this heavy nerf, Now it's frustrating and way more difficult to play with all that money in less its just like we're out of money every time, this patch is a buff for zerg player who can perfectly inject middle late game on 5 hatch and more but if you add this with a huge nerf of mule, Terran just can't compet against that
I think it would be better to return with the macro-management as we know, with no auto-inject, chronoboost and mule, There Just a few adjust to make the game balance but for the deep aim of macro shouldnt be changed and especially like that, What was good and work perfectly for 5 years, five years of training must remain, Supress the mule upon which the whole race terrane is based around is really not a solution, and has no positive side to the game
On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote: Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
But without Mules and Chrono T and P have less money so less units no?
On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote: Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
Wut???
2 larvas per inject now. not 4 like we had. I had always nearly 0 energy queens until Lategame. I mean if zerg want to attack/defense in early or mid game.
I'm aware that 2 larvas per inject is the number that spawns, personally I don't think that would be a huge factor in the midgame considering mid-master and even high master zergs start floating energy there. Early game, Zerg will have to adjust versus allins at best after that they will have just as many larva as before with a fraction of the skill required before the change.
I don't think what you say is true, but even if it is, more skill because you need to kite with your roaches/position your units differently? Define micro please.
On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote: While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this. From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless
So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right!
You cannot kill it as the energy ball comes from darkness outside tank range. Anything slow or static will die vs good toss players
Outside of tank vision or tank range? Pretty important difference there~ I can't play til later and literally nobody AFAIK has posted a video showing how the mechanic works. I assumed it was just like reaver, but reavers can't really siege tank lines in BW.
Outside tank range. I was watching Supernova play mech with new patch. The energy ball would come from darkness and he could do nothing about it. Made tanks completely useless for defending expansions. At least reavers needed to be within tank range to shoot the scarab and then it could travel further away. Disruptors seem to be able to shoot it at nothing and then manually control it and send it further away.
On August 21 2015 19:22 mantequilla wrote: I was sure not to buy lotv since US dollar is damn expensive in my country, but if blizz keep going like this they may get my money again
The only complaint I have now is that terran units look ugly. Especially cyclone but tank is ugly too, unsieged tanks look just like a lame box.
The new air units looks like a dick without balls lol. Terrible design. Cyclone is not cool looking as well.
On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote: My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects.
As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
My own bias lol. Using Mules and Chrono is very easy even for nobs let alone pros. The only real mechanical difficulty was for Zerg, and that's because without it there is a very sharp discrepancy between P/T and Z macro.
could not agree more with this. the amount of whining on this thread is way too big for a change thats, lets say not perfect, but at least heading in the right direction
they did say to keep an open mind during testing as these are not final in any way and answers like "goodbye blizz its been a fun ride" are wrong on so many levels
On August 21 2015 19:41 SC2Angora wrote: I think the game is going in the wrong direction,
Because of these changes the dynamic game desired by blizzard slowed considerably, Without mule Terran simply can not compete economically with other races and especially versus Zerg, All the game we have the feeling of not being able to produce correctly, always running out of money and could not keep the pace of the game, i think the game was really fun and dynamics before this patch, there was so many possibility of multitask and producing in the same time now the macro terran cant survive with this heavy nerf, Now it's frustrating and way more difficult to play with all that money in less its just like we're out of money every time, this patch is a buff for zerg player who can perfectly inject middle late game on 5 hatch and more but if you add this with a huge nerf of mule, Terran just can't compet against that
I think it would be better to return with the macro-management as we know, with no auto-inject, chronoboost and mule, There Just a few adjust to make the game balance but for the deep aim of macro shouldnt be changed and especially like that, What was good and work perfectly for 5 years, five years of training must remain, Supress the mule upon which the whole race terrane is based around is really not a solution, and has no positive side to the game
I would say Terran benefits the most from it currently. The other races can't just spew out workers anymore, so killing them actually hurts them as much as it hurt Terran before. And Teran is pretty good at killing workers. Also you won't need to Orbital every base asap, while Zerg will need additional hatches. The big issue comes at 200 supply, the other races still have their oversupply mechanics, Protoss oversupply is buffed even.
And while Zerg got simplified, they also said they will be watching creep spread, so they can always make that harder to do to keep Zerg busy.
Unrelated to macrodiscussion: Still can't believe Blizzard hasn't made the visuals of the Ravagers skillshot better yet. In the majority of the situations I have no idea where the skillshot is and I am just randomly guessing.
On August 21 2015 19:16 DjayEl wrote: Zerg is harder to play since the patch actually, because all the apm freed-up by removing injects has now to be used to micro battles better or lose (assuming a new state of global race balance that might not be set up yet), just as they previously had to inject perfectly or lose – except now this new apm usage will involve actual decision making. Everyone rejoice.
Well, I completely disagree. It's much easier now because you "just" have to micro your units, while before you had the same requirement to micro your units but you also had to manage your macro.
I would be curious to see how Zerg appreciate (or not) this change as a function of their level.
Wrong, you dont have enough units anymore, your micro skills will be more important than ever.
But without Mules and Chrono T and P have less money so less units no?
Protoss t1 actually do really well in small engagements, zerg and terran could just swarm us out VERY early on requiring us to get AOE as soon as possible to not die. In the long run, after a few balance passes, this will probably pan out so that Protoss can more reliably put on early pressure WITHOUT the MSC bandaid or cheesy rushes. It was possible in pre-MSC, but you were definitely taking some big risks since those units were just dead if zerglings/marauders caught you or they just ran around you and put units in your base.
On August 21 2015 20:20 Hider wrote: Unrelated to macrodiscussion: Still can't believe Blizzard hasn't made the visuals of the Ravagers skillshot better yet. In the majority of the situations I have no idea where the skillshot is and I am just randomly guessing.
really? I feel like that one has always been pretty easy to either see or guess (if you don't see it it must be under you units). What bugs me more is that it is nearly impossible to tell which unit has the parasitic bomb on it.
Played a few Zerg games... and I feel really stupid playing this race in its current state. I don't even know what to do half the time because there's literally nothing to do xD
I kinda like the patch for now to be honest, vs Zerg you don't feel that you can die any second to a super big pump of units in no time, and vs T well, i think the Scan has to be fixed accordingly because on two bases, he scans you every 50secs, and he pretty much knows what you are doing at all times.
Other than that, I think we are heading in the right direction.Love the disruptor!
On August 21 2015 20:33 Crying wrote: I kinda like the patch for now to be honest, vs Zerg you don't feel that you can die any second to a super big pump of units in no time, and vs T well, i think the Scan has to be fixed accordingly because on two bases, he scans you every 50secs, and he pretty much knows what you are doing at all times.
Other than that, I think we are heading in the right direction.Love the disruptor!
Honestly, I don't disagree with the idea of nerfing the amount of larves queen's inject give you, I disagree with the fact that it can be auto-casted. I was watching Dark vs MMA earlier, and I was thinking and the caster were highlighting how amazing Dark macro was, allowing to always have enough units and so on, and how it set him apart from the other Zerg. That kind of display of skill, with auto-inject, is gone and that's a pity for me.
So far I haven't seen anyone micro their mineral patches at an expansion. For optimization, you really shouldn't be mining low capacity patches with your first 8 workers. This is especially a factor if you're staying on low worker count (8 or less) at that base.
On August 21 2015 20:24 Swisslink wrote: Played a few Zerg games... and I feel really stupid playing this race in its current state. I don't even know what to do half the time because there's literally nothing to do xD
Welcome to the world of toss and terran, but mostly toss. Relay and enjoy the ride
Hmm I do think terran is really shitty without mules right now. Bio is obvioulsy unplayable. For mech hellions which used to be a mineral sink needs a pretty huge buff atm.
After playing a few games as Zerg, I feel like this 2 Larvae patch is a huge nerf to Zergs above Diamant. As a high Dia/low Masters player I am usually very good with injects in the early game and then it falls apart in the late. But with this patch Zerg doesn't have enough larvae to make drones and lings to make up for early enemy aggression from T and P.
On a side note: How ridiculous is the 30dmg Zealot Charge? Lategame Zealot Warpins kill everything. How could this not be foreseen by the balance team? oO
On August 21 2015 20:59 M1cha84 wrote: After playing a few games as Zerg, I feel like this 2 Larvae patch is a huge nerf to Zergs above Diamant. As a high Dia/low Masters player I am usually very good with injects in the early game and then it falls apart in the late. But with this patch Zerg doesn't have enough larvae to make drones and lings to make up for early enemy aggression from T and P.
On a side note: How ridiculous is the 30dmg Zealot Charge? Lategame Zealot Warpins kill everything. How could this not be foreseen by the balance team? oO
The balance team that brought you 8 second fungals? Swarmhosts? Warhounds? How could THEY not forsee this? No Idea mate, their ideas are usually rock solid.
On August 21 2015 20:20 Hider wrote: Unrelated to macrodiscussion: Still can't believe Blizzard hasn't made the visuals of the Ravagers skillshot better yet. In the majority of the situations I have no idea where the skillshot is and I am just randomly guessing.
really? I feel like that one has always been pretty easy to either see or guess (if you don't see it it must be under you units). What bugs me more is that it is nearly impossible to tell which unit has the parasitic bomb on it.
In big roach vs Ravager battels its impossible to tell. You can probably guess that they are under your units, but which one is impossible. And then you end up moving your whole army instead of only the specific part of the army.
On August 21 2015 20:59 M1cha84 wrote: After playing a few games as Zerg, I feel like this 2 Larvae patch is a huge nerf to Zergs above Diamant. As a high Dia/low Masters player I am usually very good with injects in the early game and then it falls apart in the late. But with this patch Zerg doesn't have enough larvae to make drones and lings to make up for early enemy aggression from T and P.
On a side note: How ridiculous is the 30dmg Zealot Charge? Lategame Zealot Warpins kill everything. How could this not be foreseen by the balance team? oO
People just haven't adjusted their mindset yet.
People feel like "I can't invest in extra hatcheries!! I'll fall behind wasting money!"
Then you also have to remember the terran isn't muling, and toss chrono'ing out probes. So perhaps early game Zerg will need to be on 2 base, 3 hatch much quicker?
The higher level players will begin to make macro hatches more often, and Terran and Protoss will get slight adjustments to compensate. I think people need to realize this change is going to make it so much easier to balance the game better especially as it relates to any TvZ and PvZ. Previously they always had to balance the game around the pro level assuming people hit their injects. This made it super unforgiving for casual players, and on the whole the zerg race was either awesome if you hit your injects, or you lost because you ran out of larva when you needed it. I know that there are instances with the other races that made things hard to balance too, I know a pro can get more out of a group of marines than a casual player etc.
But nothing was as extreme a mechanic as the larva injects in terms of having to balance the game. Maybe now zerg units across the board can get looked at to see their actual strengths and weaknesses instead of the current random mode where as a zerg player you either got crushed cause you missed injects or you rolled super easy because your injects were on point. Honestly, as someone who plays a lot of zerg it just wasn't fun to win or lose based on whether or not I didn't miss an inject. I'd rather lose because I stink, or didn't micro well, or picked a bad unit comp.
On August 21 2015 20:20 Hider wrote: Unrelated to macrodiscussion: Still can't believe Blizzard hasn't made the visuals of the Ravagers skillshot better yet. In the majority of the situations I have no idea where the skillshot is and I am just randomly guessing.
really? I feel like that one has always been pretty easy to either see or guess (if you don't see it it must be under you units). What bugs me more is that it is nearly impossible to tell which unit has the parasitic bomb on it.
In big roach vs Ravager battels its impossible to tell. You can probably guess that they are under your units, but which one is impossible. And then you end up moving your whole army instead of only the specific part of the army.
True dat! Hm, not sure how a good marker should look like, maybe a very thin line towards the sky?
Another inject idea: A button for Injects like Warp-in button (W). All what we need that Z player doens't look the/all base anymore only for injects. This is the most stupid design. I know we can use Injects by clicking on minimap, but this isn't accurate.
On August 21 2015 20:20 Hider wrote: Unrelated to macrodiscussion: Still can't believe Blizzard hasn't made the visuals of the Ravagers skillshot better yet. In the majority of the situations I have no idea where the skillshot is and I am just randomly guessing.
really? I feel like that one has always been pretty easy to either see or guess (if you don't see it it must be under you units). What bugs me more is that it is nearly impossible to tell which unit has the parasitic bomb on it.
In big roach vs Ravager battels its impossible to tell. You can probably guess that they are under your units, but which one is impossible. And then you end up moving your whole army instead of only the specific part of the army.
True dat! Hm, not sure how a good marker should look like, maybe a very thin line towards the sky?
Exactly, like a faint red light beam upwards would be nice.
On August 21 2015 20:20 Hider wrote: Unrelated to macrodiscussion: Still can't believe Blizzard hasn't made the visuals of the Ravagers skillshot better yet. In the majority of the situations I have no idea where the skillshot is and I am just randomly guessing.
really? I feel like that one has always been pretty easy to either see or guess (if you don't see it it must be under you units). What bugs me more is that it is nearly impossible to tell which unit has the parasitic bomb on it.
In big roach vs Ravager battels its impossible to tell. You can probably guess that they are under your units, but which one is impossible. And then you end up moving your whole army instead of only the specific part of the army.
True dat! Hm, not sure how a good marker should look like, maybe a very thin line towards the sky?
Yeh an indiation above the units would be preferable. If that's the case I would also like to see the skillshot duration be reduced by like 0.5 seconds to compensate. Would make the interaction a bit more skillful I think.
I love these changes, keep it up blizzard. Played last night. Zerg was a ton more fun. Terran felt slower, I like protoss warp-in change.
I hope the game sticks with the change and re-balances. I dont want the old random spiking / svc pull / instant 200 supply tech switch / chrono-ing making everything two teired system back.
On August 21 2015 03:59 purakushi wrote: Scan duration should be lowered slightly. Maybe down to 10 or 8 seconds. It is currently 12.3 seconds.
Yes seriously! Now with so many more scans available, DT play is basically worthless against T, ravens are needed less, zerg burrow etc. Should maybe even narrow the scan field as well.
We cannot say how that will work out. It would be really shitty to nerf T like this and then reduce the scan duration. If a DT does damage the way to recover from it is to Mule - oh wait, no can do anymore.
Leave scan as it is. More players will be going for plain CC's or PFs now anyways, so scans will likely be less prevalent.
On August 21 2015 22:09 Tenks wrote: Since they're considering removing macro mechanics going forward how do you guys feel about creep? Should it be removed as well?
Creep is pretty much the type of mechanic blizzard wants to have in the game. It is completely unrelated to the 3 traditional resources (minerals, vespene, supply) and to production, is not that vital in the lower leagues (even around diamond-masters you can often get away with bad creepspread if you are just good with other stuff) but it's visually apparent who does well with it and who doesn't.
I would actually like it if the other races got something similar that somehow showcased their territory on the map and was kind of optional, yet beneficial.
On August 21 2015 22:35 Stuvv360 wrote: Inject Larva needs to be removed. In its place increase the amount of larva created by the Hatcheries/ Lair/ Hive.
Hatchery Spawn 5 Lair Spawn 6 Hive Spawn 8
then when upgrading all hatcheries up to hives, the larva count will be too much in favor of zerg
On August 21 2015 22:35 Stuvv360 wrote: Inject Larva needs to be removed. In its place increase the amount of larva created by the Hatcheries/ Lair/ Hive.
Hatchery Spawn 5 Lair Spawn 6 Hive Spawn 8
then when upgrading all hatcheries up to hives, the larva count will be too much in favor of zerg
And that is not how larva spawning works in the first place xD
On August 21 2015 22:35 Stuvv360 wrote: Inject Larva needs to be removed. In its place increase the amount of larva created by the Hatcheries/ Lair/ Hive.
Hatchery Spawn 5 Lair Spawn 6 Hive Spawn 8
then when upgrading all hatcheries up to hives, the larva count will be too much in favor of zerg
Spending 300/300 to get to hive (let alone the time) can have some benefit, no?
On August 21 2015 22:35 Stuvv360 wrote: Inject Larva needs to be removed. In its place increase the amount of larva created by the Hatcheries/ Lair/ Hive.
Hatchery Spawn 5 Lair Spawn 6 Hive Spawn 8
then when upgrading all hatcheries up to hives, the larva count will be too much in favor of zerg
you mean in a extreme situation? 8 larvas per base is damn low to the current 19 larvas per base.
On August 21 2015 22:09 Tenks wrote: Since they're considering removing macro mechanics going forward how do you guys feel about creep? Should it be removed as well?
The advantage of having units move faster on creep is pretty important for many reasons (easier flanking, better defense, vision etc), plus it fits the race perfectly, they should definitely not remove it
also watching progamers spread creep in the most efficient manner is a delight
On August 21 2015 22:09 Tenks wrote: Since they're considering removing macro mechanics going forward how do you guys feel about creep? Should it be removed as well?
Creep is pretty much the type of mechanic blizzard wants to have in the game. It is completely unrelated to the 3 traditional resources (minerals, vespene, supply) and to production, is not that vital in the lower leagues (even around diamond-masters you can often get away with bad creepspread if you are just good with other stuff) but it's visually apparent who does well with it and who doesn't.
I would actually like it if the other races got something similar that somehow showcased their territory on the map and was kind of optional, yet beneficial.
Maybe Pylon power fields should be displayed on the minimap. It might also be wise to let them have an actual effect on Protoss units. Maybe jumpstarting their shield regeneration, so that they don't have to wait 10 seconds out of combat. Or maybe just a flat buff to shield regeneration rate.
I've been playing around with the idea of a small free structure that Terran could build (probably with a somewhat long build time though) that gives vision and +1 armor to any units within a range of 2 or 3. I submitted a unit based around a precursor to this idea to that thread a while back that was oriented around these small space control buildings.
Another idea I had (that potentially steps on the toes of warp-in a bit) was an idea for a building called a Relay Node that Terran can build that gets "synced" to a Barracks, whose production queue then pauses once the unit is complete, and can bring in infantry in drop pods within a very short radius, like 1 or 2. Might also give it detection or cloaking or some sort of palpable benefit in addition to providing a spawn point for units. It would have to be pretty cheap for it to be used for map control though, especially since only one Barracks could be synced per Relay Node.
@Big J I taught the same thing about chronoboost . Creep plays a huge role in current zerg play ( def, map control, engagement, production). It's a "macro" mechanic.
showcased their territory
Terran sensor tower ? ^^
edit: @Pontius Pirate
that gives vision and +1 armor to any units within a range of 2 or 3
On August 21 2015 22:09 Tenks wrote: Since they're considering removing macro mechanics going forward how do you guys feel about creep? Should it be removed as well?
Creep is pretty much the type of mechanic blizzard wants to have in the game. It is completely unrelated to the 3 traditional resources (minerals, vespene, supply) and to production, is not that vital in the lower leagues (even around diamond-masters you can often get away with bad creepspread if you are just good with other stuff) but it's visually apparent who does well with it and who doesn't.
I would actually like it if the other races got something similar that somehow showcased their territory on the map and was kind of optional, yet beneficial.
Protoss kind of had it with proxy pylon placement until now
On August 21 2015 12:33 mishimaBeef wrote: i have one thing to say about this patch:
fucking brilliant
I am zerg and i hate it, zerg macro is way, way too easy now in comparison to the other races
I don't understand this kind of attitude. What do you mean it's too easy?
Like before there was a challenge and now you got a chance to play on GSL level?
What's so wrong with things being easier? It's not like you are going from amateur level to pro level just because Blizzard removes your APM sink.
I don't say that i am now gsl level, but yes i think my skill level now is enough to play vs terrans and protoss players one league above me in hots. I also think it simply is not fun to have this easy auto inject, terran and protoss still have mechanics checks in their production cycles and production of buildings. Zerg pretty much only has creep left tbh, it's simply boring to me atm
On August 21 2015 22:52 Cazimirbzh wrote: @Big J I taught the same thing about chronoboost . Creep plays a huge role in current zerg play ( def, map control, engagement, production). It's a "macro" mechanic.
I think it would be better to move automated Larva spawn to the Hatchery altogether, because this with the Queens is... weird to say the least. I haven't tried it yet but I imagine it could lead to some unintended scenarios with the auto-inject (like Queens popping out inject immediately, for one). If Spawn Larva were at the Hatch, Queens could be used for Creep spread entirely, and for transfuses and base defense. This may lead players to not making Queens anymore, though, but would still be a much cleaner solution in my opinion. Also, slightly increasing Larva output when upgrading to Lair and Hive would be nice.
On August 21 2015 22:52 Cazimirbzh wrote: @Big J I taught the same thing about chronoboost . Creep plays a huge role in current zerg play ( def, map control, engagement, production). It's a "macro" mechanic.
that gives vision and +1 armor to any units within a range of 2 or 3
Bunker seems still better^^
It is a macro mechanic in a wider sense, i.e. it influences how you set-up your gameplan. However not in the sense that it speeds up anything or returns any resource. It is not actually connected to production in any direct sense unlike chronoboost which speeds it up. Sure you can say that it allows zerg to take bases and stuff, but then basically everything is connected to production. @Chronoboost: Chrono is a very nice mechanic and has a nice visual indications that showcases that the player is spending attention towards a certain structure.
Also true about the pylons being similar to creep. And it would indeed be interesting to see powerfields on the map, at least as observer but might be interesting for players as well (assuming the pylon has been spotted).
On August 21 2015 22:09 Tenks wrote: Since they're considering removing macro mechanics going forward how do you guys feel about creep? Should it be removed as well?
Creep is pretty much the type of mechanic blizzard wants to have in the game. It is completely unrelated to the 3 traditional resources (minerals, vespene, supply) and to production, is not that vital in the lower leagues (even around diamond-masters you can often get away with bad creepspread if you are just good with other stuff) but it's visually apparent who does well with it and who doesn't.
I would actually like it if the other races got something similar that somehow showcased their territory on the map and was kind of optional, yet beneficial.
Maybe Pylon power fields should be displayed on the minimap. It might also be wise to let them have an actual effect on Protoss units. Maybe jumpstarting their shield regeneration, so that they don't have to wait 10 seconds out of combat. Or maybe just a flat buff to shield regeneration rate.
I've been playing around with the idea of a small free structure that Terran could build (probably with a somewhat long build time though) that gives vision and +1 armor to any units within a range of 2 or 3. I submitted a unit based around a precursor to this idea to that thread a while back that was oriented around these small space control buildings.
Another idea I had (that potentially steps on the toes of warp-in a bit) was an idea for a building called a Relay Node that Terran can build that gets "synced" to a Barracks, whose production queue then pauses once the unit is complete, and can bring in infantry in drop pods within a very short radius, like 1 or 2. Might also give it detection or cloaking or some sort of palpable benefit in addition to providing a spawn point for units. It would have to be pretty cheap for it to be used for map control though, especially since only one Barracks could be synced per Relay Node.
I've had some similar ideas.
PARATROOPERS - Some late upgrade allows you to rally barracks to remote locations on the map (as long as you have vision). The barracks units drop from the sky in parachutes in that location. They float down for a short period, are vulnerable during this period.
SENSOR TOWER - I think we just need to modify the sensor tower a tiny bit. If it detects motion, it can also grant vision around that unit. Pull the radius in a bit.
AREA BUFFS FOR TERRAN - I actually dislike this idea, even though both Zerg and Protoss get powerful AOE buffs to their units (creep, cloaking fields, guardian shield, etc ...). With the recent nerf to bio and the SCV (MULE nerf), we could probably use a buff to our anti-ground static defense. Put the Shrike Turret upgrade in the orbital command, and allow any bunker within [x] range of an OC, to mount a Shrike Turret (this turret is similar to a marine or two).
While we're on it, I also think the hi-sec auto tracking and neo-steel frame upgrades should be moved to the Armory. Stupid that the engineering bay has nine upgrades.
PROTOSS - if you take away photon overcharge, I like your idea. Fast warp-in powerfields should also buff shields. I like that idea a lot, actually.
On August 21 2015 22:09 Tenks wrote: Since they're considering removing macro mechanics going forward how do you guys feel about creep? Should it be removed as well?
Creep is pretty much the type of mechanic blizzard wants to have in the game. It is completely unrelated to the 3 traditional resources (minerals, vespene, supply) and to production, is not that vital in the lower leagues (even around diamond-masters you can often get away with bad creepspread if you are just good with other stuff) but it's visually apparent who does well with it and who doesn't.
I would actually like it if the other races got something similar that somehow showcased their territory on the map and was kind of optional, yet beneficial.
Maybe Pylon power fields should be displayed on the minimap. It might also be wise to let them have an actual effect on Protoss units. Maybe jumpstarting their shield regeneration, so that they don't have to wait 10 seconds out of combat. Or maybe just a flat buff to shield regeneration rate.
I've been playing around with the idea of a small free structure that Terran could build (probably with a somewhat long build time though) that gives vision and +1 armor to any units within a range of 2 or 3. I submitted a unit based around a precursor to this idea to that thread a while back that was oriented around these small space control buildings.
Another idea I had (that potentially steps on the toes of warp-in a bit) was an idea for a building called a Relay Node that Terran can build that gets "synced" to a Barracks, whose production queue then pauses once the unit is complete, and can bring in infantry in drop pods within a very short radius, like 1 or 2. Might also give it detection or cloaking or some sort of palpable benefit in addition to providing a spawn point for units. It would have to be pretty cheap for it to be used for map control though, especially since only one Barracks could be synced per Relay Node.
I've had some similar ideas.
PARATROOPERS - Some late upgrade allows you to rally barracks to remote locations on the map (as long as you have vision). The barracks units drop from the sky in parachutes in that location. They float down for a short period, are vulnerable during this period.
SENSOR TOWER - I think we just need to modify the sensor tower a tiny bit. If it detects motion, it can also grant vision around that unit. Pull the radius in a bit.
AREA BUFFS FOR TERRAN - I actually dislike this idea, even though both Zerg and Protoss get powerful AOE buffs to their units (creep, cloaking fields, guardian shield, etc ...). With the recent nerf to bio and the SCV (MULE nerf), we could probably use a buff to our anti-ground static defense. Put the Shrike Turret upgrade in the orbital command, and allow any bunker within [x] range of an OC, to mount a Shrike Turret (this turret is similar to a marine or two).
While we're on it, I also think the hi-sec auto tracking and neo-steel frame upgrades should be moved to the Armory. Stupid that the engineering bay has nine upgrades.
PROTOSS - if you take away photon overcharge, I like your idea. Fast warp-in powerfields should also buff shields. I like that idea a lot, actually.
Are you gonna suggest a Tarmogoyf unit as well? I feel like you've been missing that opportunity for a while.
On August 21 2015 23:22 ETisME wrote: everyone is so focused on macro mechanics, but wtf that protoss warp in change is mega huge. warp prism is way too powerful right now.
Who knew 2 second warp in with 30 initial damage on chargelot would be powerful?!
On August 21 2015 22:09 Tenks wrote: Since they're considering removing macro mechanics going forward how do you guys feel about creep? Should it be removed as well?
Creep is pretty much the type of mechanic blizzard wants to have in the game. It is completely unrelated to the 3 traditional resources (minerals, vespene, supply) and to production, is not that vital in the lower leagues (even around diamond-masters you can often get away with bad creepspread if you are just good with other stuff) but it's visually apparent who does well with it and who doesn't.
I would actually like it if the other races got something similar that somehow showcased their territory on the map and was kind of optional, yet beneficial.
Maybe Pylon power fields should be displayed on the minimap. It might also be wise to let them have an actual effect on Protoss units. Maybe jumpstarting their shield regeneration, so that they don't have to wait 10 seconds out of combat. Or maybe just a flat buff to shield regeneration rate.
I've been playing around with the idea of a small free structure that Terran could build (probably with a somewhat long build time though) that gives vision and +1 armor to any units within a range of 2 or 3. I submitted a unit based around a precursor to this idea to that thread a while back that was oriented around these small space control buildings.
Another idea I had (that potentially steps on the toes of warp-in a bit) was an idea for a building called a Relay Node that Terran can build that gets "synced" to a Barracks, whose production queue then pauses once the unit is complete, and can bring in infantry in drop pods within a very short radius, like 1 or 2. Might also give it detection or cloaking or some sort of palpable benefit in addition to providing a spawn point for units. It would have to be pretty cheap for it to be used for map control though, especially since only one Barracks could be synced per Relay Node.
I've had some similar ideas.
PARATROOPERS - Some late upgrade allows you to rally barracks to remote locations on the map (as long as you have vision). The barracks units drop from the sky in parachutes in that location. They float down for a short period, are vulnerable during this period.
SENSOR TOWER - I think we just need to modify the sensor tower a tiny bit. If it detects motion, it can also grant vision around that unit. Pull the radius in a bit.
AREA BUFFS FOR TERRAN - I actually dislike this idea, even though both Zerg and Protoss get powerful AOE buffs to their units (creep, cloaking fields, guardian shield, etc ...). With the recent nerf to bio and the SCV (MULE nerf), we could probably use a buff to our anti-ground static defense. Put the Shrike Turret upgrade in the orbital command, and allow any bunker within [x] range of an OC, to mount a Shrike Turret (this turret is similar to a marine or two).
While we're on it, I also think the hi-sec auto tracking and neo-steel frame upgrades should be moved to the Armory. Stupid that the engineering bay has nine upgrades.
PROTOSS - if you take away photon overcharge, I like your idea. Fast warp-in powerfields should also buff shields. I like that idea a lot, actually.
Are you gonna suggest a Tarmogoyf unit as well? I feel like you've been missing that opportunity for a while.
Sounds like a dig, but unfortunately I don't get it : / I bet it's really funny though!
And hey, I'm not saying my ideas or awesome, or good for the game, or balanced or anything. I'm not a game designer. Don't pretend to be one just cuz I play SC2 a lot. Just talking, sharing ideas with the community, cuz I'm lucky to be in the beta. That's all. If my ideas are shit, then *shrugs*. But some of them have been received well, most notably, the Aerial Drone for the Reaper. Cheers!
On August 21 2015 20:24 Swisslink wrote: Played a few Zerg games... and I feel really stupid playing this race in its current state. I don't even know what to do half the time because there's literally nothing to do xD
I felt quite the opposite. 3 hatch before pool (and don't look back!) and you will have plenty to do in no time.
On August 21 2015 23:22 ETisME wrote: everyone is so focused on macro mechanics, but wtf that protoss warp in change is mega huge. warp prism is way too powerful right now.
Who knew 2 second warp in with 30 initial damage on chargelot would be powerful?!
When you unlock charge tech, zeolots should get on a psi-horse, and when they're charging, you see a psi-lance come out as they charge in.
On August 21 2015 22:09 Tenks wrote: Since they're considering removing macro mechanics going forward how do you guys feel about creep? Should it be removed as well?
Creep is pretty much the type of mechanic blizzard wants to have in the game. It is completely unrelated to the 3 traditional resources (minerals, vespene, supply) and to production, is not that vital in the lower leagues (even around diamond-masters you can often get away with bad creepspread if you are just good with other stuff) but it's visually apparent who does well with it and who doesn't.
I would actually like it if the other races got something similar that somehow showcased their territory on the map and was kind of optional, yet beneficial.
Maybe Pylon power fields should be displayed on the minimap. It might also be wise to let them have an actual effect on Protoss units. Maybe jumpstarting their shield regeneration, so that they don't have to wait 10 seconds out of combat. Or maybe just a flat buff to shield regeneration rate.
I've been playing around with the idea of a small free structure that Terran could build (probably with a somewhat long build time though) that gives vision and +1 armor to any units within a range of 2 or 3. I submitted a unit based around a precursor to this idea to that thread a while back that was oriented around these small space control buildings.
Another idea I had (that potentially steps on the toes of warp-in a bit) was an idea for a building called a Relay Node that Terran can build that gets "synced" to a Barracks, whose production queue then pauses once the unit is complete, and can bring in infantry in drop pods within a very short radius, like 1 or 2. Might also give it detection or cloaking or some sort of palpable benefit in addition to providing a spawn point for units. It would have to be pretty cheap for it to be used for map control though, especially since only one Barracks could be synced per Relay Node.
I've had some similar ideas.
PARATROOPERS - Some late upgrade allows you to rally barracks to remote locations on the map (as long as you have vision). The barracks units drop from the sky in parachutes in that location. They float down for a short period, are vulnerable during this period.
SENSOR TOWER - I think we just need to modify the sensor tower a tiny bit. If it detects motion, it can also grant vision around that unit. Pull the radius in a bit.
AREA BUFFS FOR TERRAN - I actually dislike this idea, even though both Zerg and Protoss get powerful AOE buffs to their units (creep, cloaking fields, guardian shield, etc ...). With the recent nerf to bio and the SCV (MULE nerf), we could probably use a buff to our anti-ground static defense. Put the Shrike Turret upgrade in the orbital command, and allow any bunker within [x] range of an OC, to mount a Shrike Turret (this turret is similar to a marine or two).
While we're on it, I also think the hi-sec auto tracking and neo-steel frame upgrades should be moved to the Armory. Stupid that the engineering bay has nine upgrades.
PROTOSS - if you take away photon overcharge, I like your idea. Fast warp-in powerfields should also buff shields. I like that idea a lot, actually.
Are you gonna suggest a Tarmogoyf unit as well? I feel like you've been missing that opportunity for a while.
Sounds like a dig, but unfortunately I don't get it : / I bet it's really funny though!
And hey, I'm not saying my ideas or awesome, or good for the game, or balanced or anything. I'm not a game designer. Don't pretend to be one just cuz I play SC2 a lot. Just talking, sharing ideas with the community, cuz I'm lucky to be in the beta. That's all. If my ideas are shit, then *shrugs*. But some of them have been received well, most notably, the Aerial Drone for the Reaper. Cheers!
TimeSpiral was a Magic: The Gathering block, where Tarmogoyf was considered to be a marquis card, and I'm a little bored at work. Also it's early in the morning. ^__^
On August 21 2015 23:22 ETisME wrote: everyone is so focused on macro mechanics, but wtf that protoss warp in change is mega huge. warp prism is way too powerful right now.
Who knew 2 second warp in with 30 initial damage on chargelot would be powerful?!
When you unlock charge tech, zeolots should get on a psi-horse, and when they're charging, you see a psi-lance come out as they charge in.
On August 21 2015 17:40 [PkF] Wire wrote: LOL what the fuck did they do with the immortal model ??? (produce an immortal in game, maybe on low settings, to understand)
Otherwise the warp-in change really sucks at least aesthetically and elegance wise. Don't tell me all those circles aren't confusing.
Haven't played enough to have an opinion about the other changes, but removal of chrono does not feel so strange. Autocast is stupid per se, but the toning down of macro mechanics is a step in the right direction, most definitely. Just have hatcheries produce slightly more larvae, lairs and hives producing at a higher rate, and encourage Z players to have macro hatches. Creep, transfuse, and early air/ranged defence are enough of an incentive for any Z player to get queens without that dumb autocast thing.
Yeah I think that's some sort of bug, hilarious to watch though.
3/4 zergs in Ro4 for the latest LotV smilecup. Mostly talks about the state of PvZ though, not enough terrans participating in general.
Idk I haven't actually gotten to play zerg yet but I was watching vibe play and I'm pretty sure he was fighting another zerg for around 3-5 minutes straight constantly microing roach lurker vs roach ravager.
You wouldn't see that before the changes bc both players would have to pull back to safely split.
That said, it would be a nightmare to cast the same kiting micro over and over for 3 minutes lol
automated injects feels so lame, holy shit ;; I'd prefer removed inject with higher larvae spawning by default or by upgrade or something just for the fact that it wouldnt feel so lame lol
would be kinda cool though, making hatcheries and then morphing them into some specialized larvae lounge
The medievac change sounds plain annoying, theres too much speed going on for too long somewhere there imo, remember when people actually praised a good drop player? (WoL gumiho for example)
On August 22 2015 00:25 Aocowns wrote: automated injects feels so lame, holy shit ;; I'd prefer removed inject with higher larvae spawning by default or by upgrade or something just for the fact that it wouldnt feel so lame lol
would be kinda cool though, making hatcheries and then morphing them into some specialized larvae lounge
The medievac change sounds plain annoying, theres too much speed going on for too long somewhere there imo, remember when people actually praised a good drop player? (WoL gumiho for example)
The problem is that adjusting the hatches to produce the larva you "need" would be wildly OP. Spawn Larva was already wildly OP in certain scenarios. I think what will end up happening is Zergs find the right number of macro hatches to add on, and you'll have more larva than you know what to do with, for less APM.
On August 22 2015 00:25 Aocowns wrote: automated injects feels so lame, holy shit ;; I'd prefer removed inject with higher larvae spawning by default or by upgrade or something just for the fact that it wouldnt feel so lame lol
would be kinda cool though, making hatcheries and then morphing them into some specialized larvae lounge
The medievac change sounds plain annoying, theres too much speed going on for too long somewhere there imo, remember when people actually praised a good drop player? (WoL gumiho for example)
The problem is that adjusting the hatches to produce the larva you "need" would be wildly OP. Spawn Larva was already wildly OP in certain scenarios. I think what will end up happening is Zergs find the right number of macro hatches to add on, and you'll have more larva than you know what to do with, for less APM.
oh yeah probably, was just thinking out loud. The coolness of zerg was lowered greatly by the hand-holding feeling of auto injects to me
just take advantage of it and focus on other aspects of the game like creep spread and finding holes to harass in.
i think that once people get used to it and find themselves micro'ing a lot more, it'll get better.
i've always been a little jealous of how other races could produce at full power without really taking their eyes off their units except occasionally while they're pushing or harassing.
On August 22 2015 00:48 BluemoonSC wrote: just take advantage of it and focus on other aspects of the game like creep spread and finding holes to harass in.
i think that once people get used to it and find themselves micro'ing a lot more, it'll get better.
i've always been a little jealous of how other races could produce at full power without really taking their eyes off their units except occasionally while they're pushing or harassing.
If the main thing is that you have to look away while injecting change that, and don't remove manual injecting altogether.
On August 22 2015 00:48 BluemoonSC wrote: just take advantage of it and focus on other aspects of the game like creep spread and finding holes to harass in.
i think that once people get used to it and find themselves micro'ing a lot more, it'll get better.
i've always been a little jealous of how other races could produce at full power without really taking their eyes off their units except occasionally while they're pushing or harassing.
If the main thing is that you have to look away while injecting change that, and don't remove manual injecting altogether.
So my question is, if we don't like the changes, where do we go from here? Even if the community is split 50/50 we are basically going to alienate a large portion of the community with whatever change goes through.
I feel like these changes are enough to make a lot of people quit the game, a lot of the people who actually played a lot and liked the unique macro mechanics of SC2, like myself.
On August 22 2015 01:01 DooMDash wrote: So my question is, if we don't like the changes, where do we go from here? Even if the community is split 50/50 we are basically going to alienate a large portion of the community with whatever change goes through.
I feel like these changes are enough to make a lot of people quit the game, a lot of the people who actually played a lot and liked the unique macro mechanics of SC2, like myself.
On August 22 2015 00:48 BluemoonSC wrote: just take advantage of it and focus on other aspects of the game like creep spread and finding holes to harass in.
i think that once people get used to it and find themselves micro'ing a lot more, it'll get better.
i've always been a little jealous of how other races could produce at full power without really taking their eyes off their units except occasionally while they're pushing or harassing.
If the main thing is that you have to look away while injecting change that, and don't remove manual injecting altogether.
On August 22 2015 01:01 DooMDash wrote: So my question is, if we don't like the changes, where do we go from here? Even if the community is split 50/50 we are basically going to alienate a large portion of the community with whatever change goes through.
I feel like these changes are enough to make a lot of people quit the game, a lot of the people who actually played a lot and liked the unique macro mechanics of SC2, like myself.
Honestly, the other 100k core fans who loved the game for the mechanical aspects, multitasking macro and micro, already left years ago People who are still here by now are prooobably going to stay for a while more even though they might not play I think
Think Nony said it quite well in his stream chat. loosely quoted: "it'll probably be alright enough for me. I'm just going to play it some and try to enjoy it for what it is"
If zerg stays that way i have to change races :D It simply is no fun for me to have the macro like that, it doesn't feel like starcraft while playing zerg
On August 22 2015 01:11 Big J wrote: just watching Kiwikaki stream. Can someone confirm the new disruptor one-shots ravagers and roaches and marauders? So like 145damage plus?!?!?
On August 22 2015 00:48 BluemoonSC wrote: just take advantage of it and focus on other aspects of the game like creep spread and finding holes to harass in.
i think that once people get used to it and find themselves micro'ing a lot more, it'll get better.
i've always been a little jealous of how other races could produce at full power without really taking their eyes off their units except occasionally while they're pushing or harassing.
Except other races do have to take their eyes off their units...zerg doesn't anymore.
I was upset with the state of Terran post-patch so I switched to playing zerg for 5 or so games, and I was suddenly able to compete with terrans and protoss at my level, which I found shocking. Usually my injects in Hots are really, really bad, and sit about 3 leagues below my terran, but I found I could play zerg and start winning against players just a little bit below my level. Not a good feeling.
It's way too early to know much, but knee jerk comments are fun. Here we go.
Ravagers and Disruptors
First off, Ravagers are incredible. Probably too incredible. There is no way you can look away from a battle for even one second vs. a Zerg with Ravagers now that we can micro like mad as Zerg (which I absolutely love... much more BW-like). I mostly love this effect in the short run, but I wonder if it's not way too good. You can no longer chase down a retreating zerg either. I suspect fungal + Ravagers to be a great option for obvious reasons. Man can you micro those Ravagers though!
Disruptors with new firing ability is better than it was, but not perfect. Has potential, but is very clunky compared to something like the ravager. Why not do away with the 1 second "can't move" deal after firing? It does require micro on both sides so that part looks promising.
General Thoughts on Harassment and Defense
On offense/harassment: Zerglings got better adrenal recently. Lurkers vs. workers. Ravagers. Zealots get better charge in this patch, and the prism pickup coolness. MMM was always wonderful harassment... medivac just got boosted even harder. Non-air unit harassment is real in SC2 now for all races?! This is exciting!
On defense: 2 Liberators + 2 turrets are in SC2 what two high templar and cannons were in PvZ island matches in BW. They can defend a critical expansion very well on their own. Ground attack mode to stop basically any ground based harassment (aside from really long range stuff like the new Disruptors and siege tank harass). Air mode to stop muta harassment.
On August 22 2015 01:11 The_Red_Viper wrote: If zerg stays that way i have to change races :D It simply is no fun for me to have the macro like that, it doesn't feel like starcraft while playing zerg
On August 22 2015 01:11 Big J wrote: just watching Kiwikaki stream. Can someone confirm the new disruptor one-shots ravagers and roaches and marauders? So like 145damage plus?!?!?
On August 22 2015 01:11 The_Red_Viper wrote: If zerg stays that way i have to change races :D It simply is no fun for me to have the macro like that, it doesn't feel like starcraft while playing zerg
On August 22 2015 01:11 Big J wrote: just watching Kiwikaki stream. Can someone confirm the new disruptor one-shots ravagers and roaches and marauders? So like 145damage plus?!?!?
On August 22 2015 01:11 The_Red_Viper wrote: If zerg stays that way i have to change races :D It simply is no fun for me to have the macro like that, it doesn't feel like starcraft while playing zerg
On August 22 2015 01:11 Big J wrote: just watching Kiwikaki stream. Can someone confirm the new disruptor one-shots ravagers and roaches and marauders? So like 145damage plus?!?!?
Ah thanks, in this very thread the OP doesn't list the values. That is... a lot... They have a serious problem with extreme stats in this game...
I feel like it is kinda ok though, disruptors aren't that easy to use and they pretty much are the main aoe for protoss now
Yeah, I don't really want to say anything about balance because that depends on other stats and other units and so on. I don't know, but I just don't agree with the idea that the disruptor needs to one-shot everything. If they put stupidly high stats on lowtier units like roaches or adepts then the solution is probably not to create units that still blow them up but to tone those stats back a little.
On August 22 2015 01:11 The_Red_Viper wrote: If zerg stays that way i have to change races :D It simply is no fun for me to have the macro like that, it doesn't feel like starcraft while playing zerg
On August 22 2015 01:11 Big J wrote: just watching Kiwikaki stream. Can someone confirm the new disruptor one-shots ravagers and roaches and marauders? So like 145damage plus?!?!?
Ah thanks, in this very thread the OP doesn't list the values. That is... a lot... They have a serious problem with extreme stats in this game...
I feel like it is kinda ok though, disruptors aren't that easy to use and they pretty much are the main aoe for protoss now
Yeah, I don't really want to say anything about balance because that depends on other stats and other units and so on. I don't know, but I just don't agree with the idea that the disruptor needs to one-shot everything. If they put stupidly high stats on lowtier units like roaches or adepts then the solution is probably not to create units that still blow them up but to tone those stats back a little.
The problem is not the other units, the problem is that the disruptor has a fairly high cooldown and if it wouldn't do burst dmg it probably would be useless. So you either lower the cd and thus can lower the dmg or you lower the dmg and design the other protoss units so they are the main dmg dealers, so the disruptor would be more of a support role (which seems kinda weird to me)
edit: but yeah the tankiness of these low tier units isn't a good thing for the game overal, i agree
Since this is beta, they could stretch the changes further. Chronoboost is used on probes and units, shouldnt there be a reduction in build time for ALL probes and units. Upgrades too.
On August 22 2015 01:42 Rexeus wrote: Since this is beta, they could stretch the changes further. Chronoboost is used on probes and units, shouldnt there be a reduction in build time for ALL probes and units. Upgrades too.
but it wasnt used on everything all the time, so that wouldnt really work
On August 22 2015 01:25 summerloud wrote: just started playing the patch... this is sooo much better
harass, drops, skirmishes everywhere... the one who keeps his army together loses
and now imagine this game with maps adapted to it instead of the old hots map
i have hope for sc2 again
This patch doesn't do anything to encourage this style of play, but Legacy of the Void's faster expanding and economy did. Seriously LotV has been about engagements all over constantly before this patch, the only difference now is it's at a slower pace, especially when workers are destroyed. Feels like we're playing WoL all over again almost.
On August 22 2015 01:25 summerloud wrote: just started playing the patch... this is sooo much better
harass, drops, skirmishes everywhere... the one who keeps his army together loses
and now imagine this game with maps adapted to it instead of the old hots map
i have hope for sc2 again
This patch doesn't do anything to encourage this style of play, but Legacy of the Void's faster expanding and economy did. Seriously LotV has been about engagements all over constantly before this patch, the only difference now is it's at a slower pace, especially when workers are destroyed. Feels like we're playing WoL all over again almost.
Lotv needed a slowdown in pace anyway i think, so thats alright
On August 22 2015 01:25 summerloud wrote: just started playing the patch... this is sooo much better
harass, drops, skirmishes everywhere... the one who keeps his army together loses
and now imagine this game with maps adapted to it instead of the old hots map
i have hope for sc2 again
This patch doesn't do anything to encourage this style of play, but Legacy of the Void's faster expanding and economy did. Seriously LotV has been about engagements all over constantly before this patch, the only difference now is it's at a slower pace, especially when workers are destroyed. Feels like we're playing WoL all over again almost.
Yeah it does. Less money/units means scrappier engagements across the board.
On August 22 2015 01:11 The_Red_Viper wrote: If zerg stays that way i have to change races :D It simply is no fun for me to have the macro like that, it doesn't feel like starcraft while playing zerg
On August 22 2015 01:11 Big J wrote: just watching Kiwikaki stream. Can someone confirm the new disruptor one-shots ravagers and roaches and marauders? So like 145damage plus?!?!?
Ah thanks, in this very thread the OP doesn't list the values. That is... a lot... They have a serious problem with extreme stats in this game...
I feel like it is kinda ok though, disruptors aren't that easy to use and they pretty much are the main aoe for protoss now
Yeah, I don't really want to say anything about balance because that depends on other stats and other units and so on. I don't know, but I just don't agree with the idea that the disruptor needs to one-shot everything. If they put stupidly high stats on lowtier units like roaches or adepts then the solution is probably not to create units that still blow them up but to tone those stats back a little.
The problem is not the other units, the problem is that the disruptor has a fairly high cooldown and if it wouldn't do burst dmg it probably would be useless. So you either lower the cd and thus can lower the dmg or you lower the dmg and design the other protoss units so they are the main dmg dealers, so the disruptor would be more of a support role (which seems kinda weird to me)
Yeah, basically this is what I would prefer. Or as I said, tone back the 2-3 units that you want to be one-shot a bit in the health department and compensate them differently. I feel like it is a bit stupid anyways if a roach has less dps than a single marine or zergling, but nearly as much HP as a tank...
On August 22 2015 01:25 summerloud wrote: just started playing the patch... this is sooo much better
harass, drops, skirmishes everywhere... the one who keeps his army together loses
and now imagine this game with maps adapted to it instead of the old hots map
i have hope for sc2 again
This patch doesn't do anything to encourage this style of play, but Legacy of the Void's faster expanding and economy did. Seriously LotV has been about engagements all over constantly before this patch, the only difference now is it's at a slower pace, especially when workers are destroyed. Feels like we're playing WoL all over again almost.
Yeah it does. Less money/units means scrappier engagements across the board.
Also means potentially no engagements. People are a lot less willing to commit when they have almost nothing. I know I've noticed a lot less battles personally. Games just slow in general now, and it's not in the good way.
On August 22 2015 01:42 Rexeus wrote: Since this is beta, they could stretch the changes further. Chronoboost is used on probes and units, shouldnt there be a reduction in build time for ALL probes and units. Upgrades too.
No because that would be a huge buff that would break the game. It is equivalent to infinite, automatically casted chronoboost. Terran production is greatly nerfed too, only Zerg at the lower levels is improved due to low-level players mechanics.
It seems like the autocast injects are not actually a nerf for 99% of the playerbase. I could see how a paid pro could actually inject better than autoinject, but anyone below low grandmaster is going to benefit from the autoinject. Masters and below will see a huge benefit from it. Imagine how much better a gold league Zerg is at injecting now with auto inject? That the injects are 50% effective is going to be well offset by there actually being injects.
In contrast, chronoboost and mule removal were serious nerfs.
If blizz tries to balance the game now, they will need to bring Zerg down to Terran and Protoss level for 99% of the player base, but what happens to that 1% pro level?
//Also, I want to complain about controlling the cyclone. How is it supposed to work? You stutter stop so the autocast jogs on? It feels so clumsy and unreliable. Am I supposed to spam cast it on things? Why won't the unit shoot like a real unit? I hate that its "attack" is a spell. It is supremely frustrating to control at gold level.
seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW!
[QUOTE]On August 22 2015 02:19 CannonsNCarriers wrote: If blizz tries to balance the game now, they will need to bring Zerg down to Terran and Protoss level for 99% of the player base, but what happens to that 1% pro level?
dont worry about lower levels, balance the game for pros and matchmaking will do the rest
it never was or will be balanced at all levels of skill. when i was playing 1on1 with protoss in wol and hots i was matched with players with higher atm >95% of the time with a winrate of 50%. pretty much the only players with an apm as low as mine were other tosses. (i was low masters / high diamond with an apm of ~75)
On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote: seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW!
except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics
It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv
On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote: seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW!
except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics
It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv
I'm not sure about that part. If they actually work after the "wild changes" time (if they are to be believed, the upcoming month) to keep the all-ins that have already begun to emerge tame and to fix the broken units so that the released product is not too imbalanced, I see no reason why the game should be less volatile than HotS just because the mechanical requirement is slightly lower. Missing your chronos as Protoss was pretty hard and it was used most of the times to accelerate all-ins so for instance I think we'll see less Protoss upsets thanks to cheeses (IF they fix the warp prism of course).
On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote: seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW!
except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics
It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv
Ehh I kind of disagree with this line of thinking. Every beta has had some volatile times and this beta has the most drastic changes yet, so the wild west metagame is going to be here for a bit.
But, to be fair, until the top 50 Korean GMs start playing and set the actual meta for us, we can kind of do whatever we want, everyone is kinda noob at this point so fuck it :D
On August 21 2015 18:47 -Archangel- wrote: While people talk about macro changes the biggest change was Disruptor that is now OP as hell. 0% chance it stays like this. From what I seen, Disruptors make Mech pointless
So distruptor was imposible to kill before now you can kill it and you tell me that it's op now? seems right!
You cannot kill it as the energy ball comes from darkness outside tank range. Anything slow or static will die vs good toss players
Outside of tank vision or tank range? Pretty important difference there~ I can't play til later and literally nobody AFAIK has posted a video showing how the mechanic works. I assumed it was just like reaver, but reavers can't really siege tank lines in BW.
Outside tank range. I was watching Supernova play mech with new patch. The energy ball would come from darkness and he could do nothing about it. Made tanks completely useless for defending expansions. At least reavers needed to be within tank range to shoot the scarab and then it could travel further away. Disruptors seem to be able to shoot it at nothing and then manually control it and send it further away.
I don't think that should have gotten through internal testing, there's no reason to make a reaver-like unit not vulnerable to tanks (or worse, able to casually break them from 14+ range like that)
It seems like the autocast injects are not actually a nerf for 99% of the playerbase. I could see how a paid pro could actually inject better than autoinject, but anyone below low grandmaster is going to benefit from the autoinject. Masters and below will see a huge benefit from it
They'll still feel it. I offraced as like diamond at best zerg and i still hit my first 6 injects perfectly every game, which is a straight loss of ~12 larvae.
At the half hour mark it would probably be a big benefit, but not at the start of the game
loss of mule and loss of chrono boost especially at the start of the game is huge for other races too
On August 22 2015 02:19 CannonsNCarriers wrote: It seems like the autocast injects are not actually a nerf for 99% of the playerbase. I could see how a paid pro could actually inject better than autoinject, but anyone below low grandmaster is going to benefit from the autoinject. Masters and below will see a huge benefit from it. Imagine how much better a gold league Zerg is at injecting now with auto inject? That the injects are 50% effective is going to be well offset by there actually being injects.
In contrast, chronoboost and mule removal were serious nerfs.
If blizz tries to balance the game now, they will need to bring Zerg down to Terran and Protoss level for 99% of the player base, but what happens to that 1% pro level?
Are you trying to say that everyone below low grandmaster actually benefits 2larva-autoinjects in comparison to 4larva injects? Because if so, you are severly underestimating how good your average diamond ladder joe is with injects, especially in the first 10mins. And what a huge difference it obviously makes even on the first 2to3 rounds of injects which aren't all that hard for anyone who knows about the importance of injects, i.e. (2to3)*2hatchery*2larva=8to12larva = 7to11drones+1overlord.
E.g. my inject-efficiency from the days before the patch recorded by SC2replay stats is like 85-95% for the first 10minutes, which means I get 5.1-5.7larva per minute per queen, while the autoinjects give me 3. Afterwards it is of course harder to keep up - but also less important. Especially below masters you can already just put down 1-2macro haches extra if you start failing your injects without having huge resources problems from it.
E.g. my inject-efficiency from the days before the patch recorded by SC2replay stats is like 85-95% for the first 10minutes, which means I get 5.1-5.7larva per minute per queen, while the autoinjects give me 3.
Autoinject will actually only give you 2.7 because you only generate enough energy to inject 1.35x per game minute, not 1.5x (still talking HOTS time).
You can inject every 40s, while the energy takes ~44.4 seconds to regen IIRC. That gap usually forced great injectors to wait sometimes and allowed people to "catch up" at least a bit on their queens energy a bit over a long period of time by spending it faster than it generated if they missed injects.
sc2replay might have actually compensated for that delay when showing the inject uptimes, i think i remember reading something about that
So one side effect of the hullabaloo is harassibility. The impact of harass has gone up, and subsequently the uptime of action-oriented gestures has gone down, because harassment sets the outcome more firmly. We can nerf harass/buff workers or increase rebound macro if the advantages/disadvantages gained by harassment aren't as fungible as we'd like. Zerg likely has the easiest time supplementing their macrobooster deficit, but Mule and Chrono have no real substitute. So then balance will have to step in to handle mineral cost or timing disparities.
Protoss getting a macro double whammy on top of already being anemic in LotV will leave them in a very alien state, so they have the greatest reason to bring back their macrobooster in some form, especially considering all the little perks Queens and Orbitals get to keep. CB isn't as gamebreaking as we like to scapegoat it and checks all the boxes of being a nice mechanic. Zealot doing burst damage with charge seems like a great direct buff to the ball phase of fighting, because that burst damage is most of the interaction before they vaporize. As for harassment, Zealot's biggest problem was its own mobility and AI, similar to Ultras. I don't know if making Zealot snipes harder to react to is the best approach, but will likely have a minor effect on response time needed overall, so I see this a more of a direct engagement change.
Zerg macrobooster is the lowest hanging fruit for needing changes, but we're sliding into subjectivity land now. It seems like the Zerg's APM needs have been brought down, but the entire macro dynamic has been nearly trivialized, given Zerg's unique production style. There should be a level of macro-reward feedback for the player. Emphasis on precise timed actions should not be readily abandoned. We could look at the larva cap, making it more punishing to leave hatcheries unused, and make it more difficult to bank larva. Or the auto-cast can be replaced; I don't have a good idea for that yet. Just having the Queen nearby slowly draining energy and slowly "chronoing" larva out would be a more visceral sense of that proximity you need to keep with the auto-cast now, but does not satisfy the aforementioned criteria.
I quite like the econ changes, but there is some balancing to be done.
Purely from a Terran perspective I don't miss mules, I like having to choose between scans and supply drops, it makes meching seem like less of a blind game.. but oh my I didn't expect to have such low mineral income without mules! Even meching I'm constantly starved for minerals. I wonder if something as simple as adjusting tank / hellion mineral amounts by -25 would be enough to combat this but bio is going to need some serious tweaking if this is anything to go by.
I guess the real debate is about zerg though, I played a fair bit of zerg and I agree its an early game nerf but really only for big ling bling all-ins which were kinda bs anyway, but its still early days so hopefully it will all get balanced out, probably with some adjustments to the energy cost of spawn larva.
I'm quite surprised by how slow the game progresses now and how good and easier it feels to play. I have the impression that I'm in the control of the game, like in HotS. I'm playing Protoss.
On the other hand, I was watching some replays from the point of view of my zerg oponnents and was hard not to conclude that is maybe too easy to spend your money as zerg.
I still feel like people aren't considering the future implications of this enough.
If right now, with zero changes to the rest of the game, people are already reporting more skirmishes, more fulfilling battles and more fun with the micro of your units, take a second to imagine what's going to happen when they pass over unit cost and efficiency.
The big deal is that it is no longer more beneficial to race to 200/200 and try and do your damage at that point. The slowered production means that every unit is now a far more valuable piece of your offense and defense and harassment becomes much more meaningful in a world where a Zerg can't make 12 drones to saturate a base without meaningful consequences.
The balance is obviously bad, but the design of this game is becoming something magical. This is not Dustin Browder's Starcraft anymore, and we need to keep pushing for the vision of the game that we want.
On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote: seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW!
except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics
It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv
I'm not sure about that part. If they actually work after the "wild changes" time (if they are to be believed, the upcoming month) to keep the all-ins that have already begun to emerge tame and to fix the broken units so that the released product is not too imbalanced, I see no reason why the game should be less volatile than HotS just because the mechanical requirement is slightly lower. Missing your chronos as Protoss was pretty hard and it was used most of the times to accelerate all-ins so for instance I think we'll see less Protoss upsets thanks to cheeses (IF they fix the warp prism of course).
From the sound of it, the koreans found lotv to be hard because of micro, which i take means lots of matches are gonna be kinda spastic. thats at least what i was trying to get at, it might yield more volatile results even after the beta period and a more standard metagame is established. These kinds of changes also means its going to be harder to get back into a game assuming your opponent doesnt fuck up an engagement because the mechanics arent important enough to net you a solid advantage if you're better. Games being decided primarily by how well you control your units are bound to be more volatile, no? especially if the trend of "MORE SPEED MORE ACTION ALL OVER ALL THE TIME" continues
I could be blinded by my cynical outlook on all of this so i dunno
On August 22 2015 02:23 summerloud wrote: seems to me that terran is the new winner in this game of harassment with planetary fortresses at every expansion
this feels so much more like BW!
except in BW multitasking was actually hard because there were demanding mechanics
It's more like BW without the mechanical baseline that made BW an extremely competitive game. I'm guessing we'll see hilariously volatile results for a very long time to come in lotv
I'm not sure about that part. If they actually work after the "wild changes" time (if they are to be believed, the upcoming month) to keep the all-ins that have already begun to emerge tame and to fix the broken units so that the released product is not too imbalanced, I see no reason why the game should be less volatile than HotS just because the mechanical requirement is slightly lower. Missing your chronos as Protoss was pretty hard and it was used most of the times to accelerate all-ins so for instance I think we'll see less Protoss upsets thanks to cheeses (IF they fix the warp prism of course).
Games being decided primarily by how well you control your units are bound to be more volatile, no?
If the game speed remains tame (and the toning down of macro mechanics is a step in the right direction) definitely not, they should reward the better player everytime.
On August 22 2015 00:48 BluemoonSC wrote: just take advantage of it and focus on other aspects of the game like creep spread and finding holes to harass in.
Yep. It's day two, fellas. Zergs will figure out how to build hatches at the right time, etc.
On August 22 2015 00:48 BluemoonSC wrote: i think that once people get used to it and find themselves micro'ing a lot more, it'll get better.
Maybe. There will always be tears--always.
On August 22 2015 00:48 BluemoonSC wrote: i've always been a little jealous of how other races could produce at full power without really taking their eyes off their units except occasionally while they're pushing or harassing.
... says the dude who can build multiple flying supply depots with hot-key bindings. Lulz! It always looks so easy for the dude who is stomping you. That's the nature of defeat.
Believe me: Terrans and Protoss's have to look away from the army and their harass efforts constantly.
Creep, and the nature of Zerg units are also--seemingly--specifically designed to take into account the hatchery-queen management aspect of the game. Creep grants full vision. You can see an attack coming a mile away, and not only see the attack coming, but significantly delay the attack, or start the engagement with a tremendous advantage. This, and the Zerg units themselves do not have the same level of activated-ability micro as say, a Terran or Protoss. I'm not saying you don't have to micro. I'm saying the army micro for Zerg is less intense than the other two.
The whole "if I miss an inject during the seven-second engagement I auto-lose because inject larva is so hard" argument is just nonsense to me. Sometimes you have a super scrappy back and forth game that is super close, but often it's decided by two or three game-changing moments of luck, decision making, unit control, or just straight skill (you just have more stuff).
So now, basically there is no point for Terran to make an orbital until they have maxed on workers on 3 base, and even then they would probably only need 1 orbital and can make 2 planetaries?
On August 22 2015 03:57 loppy2345 wrote: So now, basically there is no point for Terran to make an orbital until they have maxed on workers on 3 base, and even then they would probably only need 1 orbital and can make 2 planetaries?
They will probably make 3-4 orbitals per game to spread scans across the map giving them almost as much vision as zerg.
On August 22 2015 03:57 loppy2345 wrote: So now, basically there is no point for Terran to make an orbital until they have maxed on workers on 3 base, and even then they would probably only need 1 orbital and can make 2 planetaries?
I make an orbital at 22/22 supply right now after reaper expand. One calldown supply pretty much pays for the orbital (100 minerals for supply + scv mining time). But after that, yeah no orbitals until I'm saturated.
On August 22 2015 03:57 loppy2345 wrote: So now, basically there is no point for Terran to make an orbital until they have maxed on workers on 3 base, and even then they would probably only need 1 orbital and can make 2 planetaries?
I make an orbital at 22/22 supply right now after reaper expand. One calldown supply pretty much pays for the orbital (100 minerals for supply + scv mining time). But after that, yeah no orbitals until I'm saturated.
The moment that becomes even remotely common im sure bust builds will come out to stop that
On August 22 2015 04:38 ZeromuS wrote: Or just not spend the 150 minerals
I'm hoping that Terrans will start having map vision like zerg, but with scans instead of creep spread. maybe not early game--but mid/late I see zerg spam queens like a boss.
The big deal is that it is no longer more beneficial to race to 200/200 and try and do your damage at that point.
It never was. Stop spreading misinformation. Your whole post is just a bias where you select certain empirical data to verify your thesis that "slower production" --> better gameplay, which is incorrect.
Which match ups do people feel have changed a lot? None of the Terran match ups feel different past the build orders. Sure I have to delay barracks 6-8 a bit but the difference so far seems minimal.
On August 22 2015 10:14 Empirimancer wrote: I wonder why they removed the mule? Of course its mining ability had to go, but why not let it remain for repairing?
See that is what I was thinking too, keep the mule and just make it more utilitarian. Like make it able to build, have no time limit on it, maybe allow it to mine but returns the same amount as an SCV, or maybe even have it able to build some sort of structure like blockades, or can build turrets faster than an SCV, just spitballin here but I think it could still have some cool uses other than being sacked, and that would make it so theres not this abundant energy for scans.
On August 22 2015 10:14 Empirimancer wrote: I wonder why they removed the mule? Of course its mining ability had to go, but why not let it remain for repairing?
If I had to guess, they'll add it back in for that purpose in a few patches, but it's out right now to keep people from muscle memorying over the next few weeks. That way they can more quickly see what needs tweaking without every terran in the beta wasting all their scan/calldown energy on mules.
Wow.. Well.. Um I guess we have a lot to wait and see about? I feel like each race is literally only getting by so far on overpowered new units and mechanics. But yeah, I'll wait to judge where this is going. Just it would be awesome that if they are removing SCV they maybe allow Terran strictures to build themselves with an upgrade or something. Mules don't just bring minerals compensate for the fact that you have to use SCV to build crap for the duration.
On August 22 2015 02:19 CannonsNCarriers wrote: It seems like the autocast injects are not actually a nerf for 99% of the playerbase. I could see how a paid pro could actually inject better than autoinject, but anyone below low grandmaster is going to benefit from the autoinject. Masters and below will see a huge benefit from it. Imagine how much better a gold league Zerg is at injecting now with auto inject? That the injects are 50% effective is going to be well offset by there actually being injects.
From my perspective it is a huge hit against the Zerg economy since you will only ever have a maximum of 5 larvae per base. Imagine you would go LingBaneMuta, now you would need 8 Hatcheries to produce 80 Lings at once, which is only 40 supply mind you. Also there is no larvae bank you can build up for massive late game techswitches
The TL;DR is that autoinjects will of course reduce multitasking requirements, and it is likely that lower level players might benefit more from this than higher level players. However if you purely look at the number of larvas to play with, it will not be a significant difference between skill levels, since lower level players inject almost as good as high level players.
Btw that games might feel more of a smaller engagements might also be because there are no BOs atm. So people are like: Well I got some units, what to do with them? Likely defense will improve later on. Not in the least for terran because there is little reason not to place a PF everywhere.
Well, most changes are good, medivac boost is nonsense, auto inject is nonsense and the complete removal of chronoboost is nonsense. If they are concerned about it, make it 50 energy not 25 so people have to be more careful with the usage. Currently it is impossible to play with anything other than mass gateway units because you need chrono to get the big beefy units protoss is known for. Unbelievable.
So summarised every boost to non-protoss is bad, and every nerf to protoss is bad, everything else is good. Makes sense. From your perspective. But did you really think mules could be removed and injects handicapped without changes to protoss?
On August 23 2015 04:32 Sissors wrote: So summarised every boost to non-protoss is bad, and every nerf to protoss is bad, everything else is good. Makes sense. From your perspective. But did you really think mules could be removed and injects handicapped without changes to protoss?
Injects are hardly handicapped, effectively Zergs will have more larva mid to lategame up to high masters level. And most of all: the amount of attention that was previously required to keep injects up is no longer necessary, that makes an absolutely huge difference even on the absolute highest level.
On August 22 2015 02:19 CannonsNCarriers wrote: It seems like the autocast injects are not actually a nerf for 99% of the playerbase. I could see how a paid pro could actually inject better than autoinject, but anyone below low grandmaster is going to benefit from the autoinject. Masters and below will see a huge benefit from it. Imagine how much better a gold league Zerg is at injecting now with auto inject? That the injects are 50% effective is going to be well offset by there actually being injects.
From my perspective it is a huge hit against the Zerg economy since you will only ever have a maximum of 5 larvae per base. Imagine you would go LingBaneMuta, now you would need 8 Hatcheries to produce 80 Lings at once, which is only 40 supply mind you. Also there is no larvae bank you can build up for massive late game techswitches
Pretty much where my games are leading me to think, all I get is constant crying that auto inject is OP but honestly, even at a mid masters level I'm hitting every inject anyways damn near rock solid at least until the mid game is in full swing so I find myself floating massive amounts of resources with not even close to as much larvae as I'm used to having.
Macro hatches are going to be an absolute necessity upon saturating your third now, the auto thing really only benefits low level players, I guess in engagements it allows Zerg to micro a bit more freely but come on, this is a straight nerf to Zerg production, you'd have to be low level or biased to not see that.
By the way I'm not saying that removing the MULE wasn't a big thing for Terran, I would be fine with them getting some little from the get go buff like Protoss got if the MULE thing ends up being problematic.
But nothing is really "problematic" outside of a few OP beta units until the Koreans get to showing us what the actual issues are.
the game is better without macro mechanics, the time/apm wasted using chrono, inject larva and mules during battle will be used for a more spectacular micro, thats what makes the game funny to play and watch, not the fucking macro mechanincs.
not sure i like the idea of the zealot charge mechanic, but whatever, chargelots are a balanced unit imo anyway...
macro mechanics are ok i suppose....i definately think there should be a few months of testing with this new macro change, including possibly a bigger pool of players...the beta #'s are not big at all and these are very very big changes...
So if you are terran and go play LotV you get Mules removed and upgrades split. You can go MMM+M similar to WoL or you can play Mech but have a weak airforce. At least you dont have to spent 150 minerals on the CC. Oh and the Liberator. the 100% steal 100% gonna be removed anyway "Spectre Gunship" that was an item in"Command and Conquer Generals: Zero Hour"
For Protoss you get a "Reaver that went to college", the 2-hit-a-marine/Worker- Adept, a slightly nerferd colussus, a hugely buffed carrier, keep the mothership core for defense and the 22 range Tempest and you get a speedlot that gets early hots Ultralisk-Ram-Damage. Oh the Oracle stays as well.
Zerg got to keep the SH in some ways, even it was poor gamedesign, added Lurker to be cooler. the Infestor is underused, but not removed, added viper to beat everything, well everything left standing after the new roach transformation. You don't even have to build terrors or infestors, just this "airforce be gone parasite...thing...."
Protoss and zerg get many Units that fill in the same "role" of the game. Anti Air AOE? ParasiteBomb, Revenger and Fungal Anti Ground AOE: Baneling, Fungal, Lurker
Anti Ground AoE: Storm, disruptor, Colossus, Archon, Anti Air: Archon, Storm (+Carrier + Tempest + Voidray + Phoenix)
Lets see Terran here: Anti Ground AOE: Tank, Mine (luck based) Anti air AOE: Thor, Mine(luck based)
I am more and more just disappointed with the game.
The Thor serves its purpose to deflect mutalisks, and thats about it in TvZ.
Guys, seriously less QQ more GG.The game is in a beautiful state right now.Some units might need tweaking but the game never felt so diverse and immersive.Now you have to choose between 4-5-6-7 openings and so many transitions, harass options and so on.
Remember, 99% of the times you loose is because of mistakes you made, not because of balance, the 1% because of balance is such a tiny fraction that even the korean progamers sometimes cannot experience.
Not talking about "Balance" but gamedesing. Terran feels like playing golf with a baseball bat and a spoon against guys with irons, wood, putters, chippers...etc.
You can choose whether to play mech or bio with Terran whats the problem?You can even go with one of the nowadays insane strategies with mass banshee/liberator/viking which is really strong and needs adequate reactions to be dealt with.
I think Terran has just as much viable openers and styles as Protoss and Zerg.
I think Terran can really play one of the most skillful styles in the face of multi-pronged drops with mines/marines etc, which is highly taxing on a person's APM.
I dont think ive ever seen a patch where I like every single change they made. Especially the removal of macro mechanics. They are a needless timesink that take away from microing, or harassing. I really think thi will work out for the better.
So they removed MULES and then didn't buff terran to compensate? A net of 170 minerals (270 from mule vs 100 from depot drop) per 50 energy is massive, plus once you reach 200 supply, all you do with the energy is scan. Terran's going to get absolutely hammered earlygame because of this loss of minerals. Also, this makes depots more vulnerable because you're gonna have to use depot drop as your econ option so you'll have more of these depots lying around, and getting that kind of depot destroyed sets you back 200 minerals. (If an opponent harasses and you quickly pull workers, they can just start killing your double depots until you shoo them away).
Toss losing chrono is whatever. Most of the research times for upgrades were unnecessarily long (except their regular attack/armor upgrades where chronoing them out was kinda unfair at times) so if they're gonna reduce the research times then whatever.
I really like the change to warpgate. 16 seconds is really long but considering the units are coming out 15-45 seconds before terran and zerg get their units produced and then have to travel the distance to wherever you wanted them to go it's still good. I also like the reduction to 2 seconds when warping near a nexus because it greatly boosts defender's advantage (relative to before in pvp).
Auto inject is just dumb. It's not gonna affect pros since they're on time with injects, but it's going to greatly disrupt anything mid-masters and below.
On August 24 2015 21:13 IMPrime wrote: So they removed MULES and then didn't buff terran to compensate? A net of 170 minerals (270 from mule vs 100 from depot drop) per 50 energy is massive, plus once you reach 200 supply, all you do with the energy is scan. Terran's going to get absolutely hammered earlygame because of this loss of minerals. Also, this makes depots more vulnerable because you're gonna have to use depot drop as your econ option so you'll have more of these depots lying around, and getting that kind of depot destroyed sets you back 200 minerals. (If an opponent harasses and you quickly pull workers, they can just start killing your double depots until you shoo them away).
Toss losing chrono is whatever. Most of the research times for upgrades were unnecessarily long (except their regular attack/armor upgrades where chronoing them out was kinda unfair at times) so if they're gonna reduce the research times then whatever.
I really like the change to warpgate. 16 seconds is really long but considering the units are coming out 15-45 seconds before terran and zerg get their units produced and then have to travel the distance to wherever you wanted them to go it's still good. I also like the reduction to 2 seconds when warping near a nexus because it greatly boosts defender's advantage (relative to before in pvp).
Auto inject is just dumb. It's not gonna affect pros since they're on time with injects, but it's going to greatly disrupt anything mid-masters and below.
Protoss and Zerg also lose macro ability, so terran should be fine.
What I dont understand is why they made kept injection at all. Why not just remove the whole mechanic and make more larva spawn naturally? If its going to be automatic, might as well remove it completely.
On August 24 2015 21:13 IMPrime wrote: So they removed MULES and then didn't buff terran to compensate? A net of 170 minerals (270 from mule vs 100 from depot drop) per 50 energy is massive, plus once you reach 200 supply, all you do with the energy is scan. Terran's going to get absolutely hammered earlygame because of this loss of minerals. Also, this makes depots more vulnerable because you're gonna have to use depot drop as your econ option so you'll have more of these depots lying around, and getting that kind of depot destroyed sets you back 200 minerals. (If an opponent harasses and you quickly pull workers, they can just start killing your double depots until you shoo them away).
Toss losing chrono is whatever. Most of the research times for upgrades were unnecessarily long (except their regular attack/armor upgrades where chronoing them out was kinda unfair at times) so if they're gonna reduce the research times then whatever.
I really like the change to warpgate. 16 seconds is really long but considering the units are coming out 15-45 seconds before terran and zerg get their units produced and then have to travel the distance to wherever you wanted them to go it's still good. I also like the reduction to 2 seconds when warping near a nexus because it greatly boosts defender's advantage (relative to before in pvp).
Auto inject is just dumb. It's not gonna affect pros since they're on time with injects, but it's going to greatly disrupt anything mid-masters and below.
Protoss and Zerg also lose macro ability, so terran should be fine.
What I dont understand is why they made kept injection at all. Why not just remove the whole mechanic and make more larva spawn naturally? If its going to be automatic, might as well remove it completely.
On August 24 2015 21:13 IMPrime wrote: So they removed MULES and then didn't buff terran to compensate? A net of 170 minerals (270 from mule vs 100 from depot drop) per 50 energy is massive, plus once you reach 200 supply, all you do with the energy is scan. Terran's going to get absolutely hammered earlygame because of this loss of minerals. Also, this makes depots more vulnerable because you're gonna have to use depot drop as your econ option so you'll have more of these depots lying around, and getting that kind of depot destroyed sets you back 200 minerals. (If an opponent harasses and you quickly pull workers, they can just start killing your double depots until you shoo them away).
Toss losing chrono is whatever. Most of the research times for upgrades were unnecessarily long (except their regular attack/armor upgrades where chronoing them out was kinda unfair at times) so if they're gonna reduce the research times then whatever.
I really like the change to warpgate. 16 seconds is really long but considering the units are coming out 15-45 seconds before terran and zerg get their units produced and then have to travel the distance to wherever you wanted them to go it's still good. I also like the reduction to 2 seconds when warping near a nexus because it greatly boosts defender's advantage (relative to before in pvp).
Auto inject is just dumb. It's not gonna affect pros since they're on time with injects, but it's going to greatly disrupt anything mid-masters and below.
Protoss and Zerg also lose macro ability, so terran should be fine.
What I dont understand is why they made kept injection at all. Why not just remove the whole mechanic and make more larva spawn naturally? If its going to be automatic, might as well remove it completely.
To compensate for warp gate/reactors
I mean that they increase the number of naturally spawning larva and make it the amount of larva equal to the amount in the situation now, and then just scrap the whole inject mechanic, since it doesnt actually add anything to the game now.
On August 24 2015 21:13 IMPrime wrote: So they removed MULES and then didn't buff terran to compensate? A net of 170 minerals (270 from mule vs 100 from depot drop) per 50 energy is massive, plus once you reach 200 supply, all you do with the energy is scan. Terran's going to get absolutely hammered earlygame because of this loss of minerals. Also, this makes depots more vulnerable because you're gonna have to use depot drop as your econ option so you'll have more of these depots lying around, and getting that kind of depot destroyed sets you back 200 minerals. (If an opponent harasses and you quickly pull workers, they can just start killing your double depots until you shoo them away).
Toss losing chrono is whatever. Most of the research times for upgrades were unnecessarily long (except their regular attack/armor upgrades where chronoing them out was kinda unfair at times) so if they're gonna reduce the research times then whatever.
I really like the change to warpgate. 16 seconds is really long but considering the units are coming out 15-45 seconds before terran and zerg get their units produced and then have to travel the distance to wherever you wanted them to go it's still good. I also like the reduction to 2 seconds when warping near a nexus because it greatly boosts defender's advantage (relative to before in pvp).
Auto inject is just dumb. It's not gonna affect pros since they're on time with injects, but it's going to greatly disrupt anything mid-masters and below.
Protoss and Zerg also lose macro ability, so terran should be fine.
What I dont understand is why they made kept injection at all. Why not just remove the whole mechanic and make more larva spawn naturally? If its going to be automatic, might as well remove it completely.
For balance (you need to get queens, you can only get them after spawning pool, you need to have queens spend energy in it and not in creep tumors) and game play (sniping queens, etc)
On August 24 2015 21:13 IMPrime wrote: So they removed MULES and then didn't buff terran to compensate? A net of 170 minerals (270 from mule vs 100 from depot drop) per 50 energy is massive, plus once you reach 200 supply, all you do with the energy is scan. Terran's going to get absolutely hammered earlygame because of this loss of minerals. Also, this makes depots more vulnerable because you're gonna have to use depot drop as your econ option so you'll have more of these depots lying around, and getting that kind of depot destroyed sets you back 200 minerals. (If an opponent harasses and you quickly pull workers, they can just start killing your double depots until you shoo them away).
Toss losing chrono is whatever. Most of the research times for upgrades were unnecessarily long (except their regular attack/armor upgrades where chronoing them out was kinda unfair at times) so if they're gonna reduce the research times then whatever.
I really like the change to warpgate. 16 seconds is really long but considering the units are coming out 15-45 seconds before terran and zerg get their units produced and then have to travel the distance to wherever you wanted them to go it's still good. I also like the reduction to 2 seconds when warping near a nexus because it greatly boosts defender's advantage (relative to before in pvp).
Auto inject is just dumb. It's not gonna affect pros since they're on time with injects, but it's going to greatly disrupt anything mid-masters and below.
Protoss and Zerg also lose macro ability, so terran should be fine.
What I dont understand is why they made kept injection at all. Why not just remove the whole mechanic and make more larva spawn naturally? If its going to be automatic, might as well remove it completely.
To compensate for warp gate/reactors
I mean that they increase the number of naturally spawning larva and make it the amount of larva equal to the amount in the situation now, and then just scrap the whole inject mechanic, since it doesnt actually add anything to the game now.
I don't necessarily disagree with your actual opinion (why autoinject?) but I do understand why they need to keep the spawn larva (albeit nerfed)
There's a lot of different ways they could do it--but they are trying to maintain the most amount of linear evolution. "Zerg already has queens do inject, lets do easier inject" as opposed to reinventing the wheel.
Zerg maccro was already very easy in early game with actual metagame ... without inject, zvt will just be ridiculous as the zerg army graph will instant double the terran one at 8min mark...
The problem is that (despite metagame intial will), zerg pop has same value as T pop ...
On August 27 2015 01:27 beefITek wrote: Zerg maccro was already very easy in early game with actual metagame ... without inject, zvt will just be ridiculous as the zerg army graph will instant double the terran one at 8min mark...
The problem is that (despite metagame intial will), zerg pop has same value as T pop ...
Sad
Interesting point of view. So how does it feel actually having to keep your workers alive? Do you feel like a zerg or protoss here on planet earth yet?
For the next update, can we please reinstate old zealot charge. I think we all had a good laugh now seeing zealots one hitting marines for a week, time to to actually make a playable game.
On August 24 2015 21:13 IMPrime wrote: So they removed MULES and then didn't buff terran to compensate? A net of 170 minerals (270 from mule vs 100 from depot drop) per 50 energy is massive, plus once you reach 200 supply, all you do with the energy is scan. Terran's going to get absolutely hammered earlygame because of this loss of minerals. Also, this makes depots more vulnerable because you're gonna have to use depot drop as your econ option so you'll have more of these depots lying around, and getting that kind of depot destroyed sets you back 200 minerals. (If an opponent harasses and you quickly pull workers, they can just start killing your double depots until you shoo them away).
Toss losing chrono is whatever. Most of the research times for upgrades were unnecessarily long (except their regular attack/armor upgrades where chronoing them out was kinda unfair at times) so if they're gonna reduce the research times then whatever.
I really like the change to warpgate. 16 seconds is really long but considering the units are coming out 15-45 seconds before terran and zerg get their units produced and then have to travel the distance to wherever you wanted them to go it's still good. I also like the reduction to 2 seconds when warping near a nexus because it greatly boosts defender's advantage (relative to before in pvp).
Auto inject is just dumb. It's not gonna affect pros since they're on time with injects, but it's going to greatly disrupt anything mid-masters and below.
Protoss and Zerg also lose macro ability, so terran should be fine.
Protoss and zerg also received buffs (e.g. warpgate research time reduced) to compensate. Terran got nothing.
On August 24 2015 21:13 IMPrime wrote: So they removed MULES and then didn't buff terran to compensate? A net of 170 minerals (270 from mule vs 100 from depot drop) per 50 energy is massive, plus once you reach 200 supply, all you do with the energy is scan. Terran's going to get absolutely hammered earlygame because of this loss of minerals. Also, this makes depots more vulnerable because you're gonna have to use depot drop as your econ option so you'll have more of these depots lying around, and getting that kind of depot destroyed sets you back 200 minerals. (If an opponent harasses and you quickly pull workers, they can just start killing your double depots until you shoo them away).
Toss losing chrono is whatever. Most of the research times for upgrades were unnecessarily long (except their regular attack/armor upgrades where chronoing them out was kinda unfair at times) so if they're gonna reduce the research times then whatever.
I really like the change to warpgate. 16 seconds is really long but considering the units are coming out 15-45 seconds before terran and zerg get their units produced and then have to travel the distance to wherever you wanted them to go it's still good. I also like the reduction to 2 seconds when warping near a nexus because it greatly boosts defender's advantage (relative to before in pvp).
Auto inject is just dumb. It's not gonna affect pros since they're on time with injects, but it's going to greatly disrupt anything mid-masters and below.
Protoss and Zerg also lose macro ability, so terran should be fine.
Protoss and zerg also received buffs (e.g. warpgate research time reduced) to compensate. Terran got nothing.
Do you realize that almost every Protoss unit build time or research was nerfed because of the ability to bank energy and then constant chrono? And this is no longer possible?
EPT![[image loading]](http://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/6IAXORGNGQC81426688145552.jpg)
i hope 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7NHOVjo.jpg)
