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So many low-post-count people whining in this thread, it's incredible. The patch hasn't even been out for a day...
I can't wait to try it out though !
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On August 21 2015 17:21 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote:
Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it. Do you watch userstream right now? SortOf is streaming right now. nonstop battles! 3min no fight is very rare now! changing something with mules/chrono/inject is by far the best thing blii did. I wished they did it in WoL beta.
Haha, yeah started watching streams right now. (also SortOf since VIBE just went off). It looks so much better watching a zerg stream already and he is even automatically going back to injecting without effect...
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As someone who has suffered with RSI in my left hand for the past few years I can't wait to try this out.
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On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted".
I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
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Gotta say that my patch day play has been ruined a bit with my graphics card beginning to stutter, but I feel like 3cc no longer works for Terran as Bio. Rax 2 and 3 feels like a better play in order to avoid overtaxing your production into the midgame.
Where in a build order are our Terrans putting down the 3rd CC against conservative Protoss and Zerg players?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 21 2015 17:15 Hag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:06 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Yeah, i played a little bit and the impression is that Zerg macro is almost non existent. Something has to be added to increase the difficulty for Zerg macro. As I wrote in another thread: I would say, just wait and see how things will turn out. The patch isn't even out for a day and everyone starts talking how things are too easy now and units aren't balanced. When everything has settled down a bit, protoss and terrans got buffed, you will perhaps be happy that the macro for zergs is easier now because you have to defend from harrass and other things with less larva than before. Blizzard wants to make this game more casual friendly and now everyone wants to make this game harder again.
If they simplify another races to the same level, that could work too 
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On August 21 2015 17:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted". I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now.
Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really?
100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 21 2015 17:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted". I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now. Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Also the interesting part about this - in Zerg Campaign is no inject! Which shows a little bit how they feel about injects for casuals :-)
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On August 21 2015 17:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted". I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now. Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations.
Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
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On August 21 2015 17:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:31 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 17:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted". I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now. Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations. Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy. EDIT: the funny part is, it's not just easy now, but it's boring not having stuff to do; i doubt this is a direction they want to go
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On August 21 2015 17:16 crappen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote:
Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it. Why does this hurt you? Can't you focus more on the other aspects of the game now?
Like what, holding down A key to build drone, spreading creep and... Well, no that's it. There are absolutely 0 macro to do for zerg except spreading creep and not being supply block.
If that's the direction they want to go then they could add auto-production to terran and protoss rax/gateway because it is exactly the same level of dumbing down the game, so just put the rax on auto-production so they keep building marines/maraudeurs and so on without having to reselect the rax at each production cycle.
But a game like this... I'm out. So long Starcraft, and thank you for the fish!
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LOL what the fuck did they do with the immortal model ??? (produce an immortal in game, maybe on low settings, to understand)
Otherwise the warp-in change really sucks at least aesthetically and elegance wise. Don't tell me all those circles aren't confusing.
Haven't played enough to have an opinion about the other changes, but removal of chrono does not feel so strange. Autocast is stupid per se, but the toning down of macro mechanics is a step in the right direction, most definitely. Just have hatcheries produce slightly more larvae, lairs and hives producing at a higher rate, and encourage Z players to have macro hatches. Creep, transfuse, and early air/ranged defence are enough of an incentive for any Z player to get queens without that dumb autocast thing.
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On August 21 2015 17:21 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:12 Vanadiel wrote:
Autocast inject feels like I am playing with hacks, feels just wrong and stupid. I hope they either revert this change or just completely remove it. Do you watch userstream right now? SortOf is streaming right now. nonstop battles! 3min no fight is very rare now! changing something with mules/chrono/inject is by far the best thing blizzard did. I wished they did it in WoL beta.
That is amazing, and the result I was hoping for. These macro mechanics which only takes focus away from fights are horrible, and glad Blizz takes action to solve it.
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On August 21 2015 17:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:31 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 17:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted". I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now. Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations. Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy.
You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce.
Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
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On August 21 2015 17:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:31 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 17:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted". I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now. Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations. Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy. You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce. Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it)
There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
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I personally have no problem with removing / toning down macro mechanics, but I do have a problem with autoinject, just by principle. Just set hatcheries to produce larvae at a slightly faster rate by default and balance accordingly. Lairs and hives producing more larvae is something that has been discussed for a long time in the community and could be tested too.
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On August 21 2015 17:22 LoneYoShi wrote:
So many low-post-count people whining in this thread, it's incredible. The patch hasn't even been out for a day...
I can't wait to try it out though !
I don't understand why we need a ton of time to figure out if we like this change or not. It's not like it's become more complex, it's become less complex. It's really easy to figure out if you'll like the changes or not, even with balance aside. I personally find it less enjoyable to even play, game feels slow, and recovering from any SCV losses drags the game on much longer than it previously did.
Game is slower with less to do, huge negative in my book.
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Just played 2 games as zerg. Its so much more fun without inject larva. Macro is now a ton easier and it makes it possible to focus more on controlling units and thus reduces the probability of you dying to stupid burrowed widow mines or other frustrating situations.
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I'll add that I'm very comfortable with removing injects because they added zero depth. In any circumstance, injecting is better than doing anything else. But the MULE/scan duality always felt interesting to me, and as a P player I know how chrono usage could be refined to the extreme. I wish they removed injects altogether (with boosted standard hatchery prod) but kept toned down versions of MULEs and chronos.
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On August 21 2015 17:58 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:44 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 17:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:31 Big J wrote:On August 21 2015 17:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:On August 21 2015 17:18 Hag wrote:On August 21 2015 16:48 Ars0n_ wrote:
My problem with this patch is blizzards argument that macro mechanics are tedious and make the game unnessacarily harder than it has to be. But, from my experience mules and chrono boost makes the game easier with than without. With terran you could lose some scv from harrass and put down a mule and not fall so far behind now that is not the case. Protoss sees and attack coming and chronos the units they need. Now the only race that got easier is zerg who DID have to require alot of attention to inject. Removing all the macro mechanics and making zerg auto inject makes the other races even OR HARDER while making zerg ALOT easier. Now zerg can put 100% of their attention on an all in and micro every unit they want to while back at home they get a constant flow of injects. As mentioned several times, the problem with larva inject is that you can only use one per time on a base. so when a terran or protoss has to defend an all-in and returns to his macro, he can use several mules or chronos at once. A zerg can only do one inject, the rest of the queen energy is "wasted". I agree with this, as far as the macro mechs alone, Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules. Now Terran and Protoss still have base management, manage reactors, add extra production buildings of different types, etc, but Zerg has almost nothing to do, spread creep maybe. I don't know, playing Zerg feel extremely dumb now. Really? You think there was a reason behind this? Really? After all these years you still think that blizzard implemented injects exactly like they were with a specific reasoning? Really? 100% they just put in an ability and prevented it to be double-injected without any other considerations. Not sure what you're getting at as i'm still having my coffee, but yeah i think they introduced inject to bring some skill to Zerg macro, and now it's gone. I even remember Dustin or someone from Blizz saying they introduced macro mechs because multiple building selection made macro stupid easy. You responded to the specific characteristic of inject that you could not postpone them and double-use later with "but that was because". And I absolutly don't think that 2009-10 blizzard did that specifically for any purpose other than prevent two queens from injecting one hatchery. Given their reputation with implementing insane numbers (stim-marine dps, adept health, ultralisk armor) I'm 100% certain they had no clue that injects would make for 60% of zerg's production if done perfectly and around what monstrosity they would be balancing the game, i.e. what sort of gameplay this would induce. Also I don't think that injects were ever there to "balance out" anything as you put it. Otherwise the first thing they'd have removed in SC2 would have been Protoss self-constructing buildings, but that didn't happen either. Because blizzard never gave a shit about these kind of things, which is actually good because it doesn't matter. If the game is balanced it is equally hard. (unless of course it is balanced around randomness, then it's easier for the player who can just win by relying on randomness but also loses because of it) There is an interview with a Blizz person, probably Dustin, that said exactly what i wrote. The macro mech were put in place because multiple building selection made macro to easy. I think Inject was the real focus, and Mules and Chrono were added just to compensate; of course, also to speed up production and so the game.
No that's not exactly what you wrote. What you gave as reasoning for the existance of inject was:
Zerg had by far the most difficult time, but that was so because Terran and Protoss had a lot more base management to do on top of Chrono and Mules.
And no, it was not that blizzard put in inject to make zerg harder and then added the others to compensate. That's just your own bias. They added macro mechanics in general because of BW players whining that the macro in the game for all races would be too easy with MBS.
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EPT
