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On August 21 2015 12:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 12:33 mishimaBeef wrote:
i have one thing to say about this patch:
fucking brilliant I am zerg and i hate it, zerg macro is way, way too easy now in comparison to the other races
I don't understand this kind of attitude. What do you mean it's too easy?
Like before there was a challenge and now you got a chance to play on GSL level?
What's so wrong with things being easier? It's not like you are going from amateur level to pro level just because Blizzard removes your APM sink.
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On August 21 2015 14:23 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 12:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 21 2015 12:33 mishimaBeef wrote:
i have one thing to say about this patch:
fucking brilliant I am zerg and i hate it, zerg macro is way, way too easy now in comparison to the other races I don't understand this kind of attitude. What do you mean it's too easy? Like before there was a challenge and now you got a chance to play on GSL level? What's so wrong with things being easier? It's not like you are going from amateur level to pro level just because Blizzard removes your APM sink.
Amateurs can't be concerned about the impact of game design on the GSL level?
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auto inject is so stupid. it makes the game so easy and this is coming from someone benefiting from it.
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On August 21 2015 14:23 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 12:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 21 2015 12:33 mishimaBeef wrote:
i have one thing to say about this patch:
fucking brilliant I am zerg and i hate it, zerg macro is way, way too easy now in comparison to the other races I don't understand this kind of attitude. What do you mean it's too easy? Like before there was a challenge and now you got a chance to play on GSL level? What's so wrong with things being easier? It's not like you are going from amateur level to pro level just because Blizzard removes your APM sink.
It's not just removing an APM sink, it's making macro way too easy, Terran and Protoss shouldn't have more mechanically demanding macro then Zerg, with the new autocast I can spread creep a whole league above what I normally can and I have twice the amount of larvae that I ever had without it lol
"Like before there was a challenge and now you got a chance to play on GSL level?
Wow, really? Rofl yea that's exactly what he meant I'm sure.
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it's really interesting this notion that now Zerg macro is easier than the other races when it was common knowledge that Zerg always had the the highest macro needs of the three races, if anything all three races are now closer together Zerg prob still has the problem of still needing to manage more bases and creep spreading, Zerg also as no queues.
This idea that the only thing that made Zerg macro hard was injecting is pure nonsense imo.
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On August 21 2015 14:16 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 14:01 pure.Wasted wrote:On August 21 2015 12:58 TT1 wrote:On August 21 2015 11:13 pure.Wasted wrote:On August 21 2015 07:44 Big J wrote:
It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat) That's all well and good, but at present, soO's just going to be staring at his A+moving army instead of at his base. I'm flabbergasted by the Zealot change. Just absolutely flabbergasted. Let's go through this step-by-step. PROBLEM: Protoss is the easiest race to master EXAMPLE: Protoss mid/lategame harassment is extremely powerful but requires very little input; stopping the flow of Warp Prismed Zealots as your Terran bio gets caught out piecemeal is very punishing. Not only does it require little input, it provides no opportunities for a pro to distinguish himself if he wanted to (and he does). SOLUTION: Make Protoss harassment more powerful by default with zero new input requirements! Make Warp Prisms warp Zealots in even faster! Lower the skill floor! Don't touch that skill ceiling! I... just... what? yea ok, except i need seperate hotkeys for adepts, hts, stalkers, phoenixs, oracles and disruptors because theyre all high tier micro units w/ abilities (and im not even counting lower tier micro units like sentrys, immortals, voids and tempests).. on top of that i need to hotkey shit like my warpprism and mothership core, but yea protoss is an a-move race right? sry bro but you have no idea what you're talking about. lotv protoss is by far the most micro intensive and hotkey intensive race, not even close. Hey, nothing would make me happier than you being right. To help me gauge your perspective, would you say that in HOTS Protoss takes more mechanical skill than Terran on average? About the same? Slightly less? A lot less? Abysmally less? obviously less, the colossus made it that way but that unit is unusable in legacy. different game, MUCH different units.
I have my doubts that replacing the Colossus with a harder to use unit single-handedly solves the mechanical disparity, in particular because Zealot runbys are still as easy to perform but now more powerful than ever, the MSC still defends your expansion with the press of one button (tomorrow can't come fast enough), and unmicroed Adepts are a hard counter to early bio.
So when you say that Protoss is the most micro intensive race in LOTV, I have to wonder if that isn't in large part because the race is still unequipped to play a LOTV-style expansion game. And when the balancing stage of the beta rolls around, and Protoss gets the buffs that are inevitably on their way, will the micro requirement remain as demanding as you find it now? That's where I have my doubts.
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On August 21 2015 14:43 Bazik wrote:
it's really interesting this notion that now Zerg macro is easier than the other races when it was common knowledge that Zerg always had the the highest macro needs of the three races, if anything all three races are now closer together Zerg prob still has the problem of still needing to manage more bases and creep spreading, Zerg also as no queues.
This idea that the only thing that made Zerg macro hard was injecting is pure nonsense imo.
The problem isn't that Zerg macro is so easy, the problem is that Zerg micro is so easy that their macro has to be significantly harder to make up for it.
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I'm liking the changes overall! The zealot charge and cyclone though need to be looked at a bit.
The thing is the Macro mechanics addition was a band aid to this easing of macro. However they just made things worse in WoL and HoTS! To make a game better the first step is recognizing the problem and removing it which is good. This atleast gives a good base on which to build a game around!
However maybe something can be done to make it harder! I don't think going back to the old macro mechanics is the answer! In fact I agree that even the zerg larva inject should be removed. Imposing artificial limits on a game to just make it harder is not the answer also! Maybe the community can come up with newer ideas for this and we have already seen that Blizzard is willing to listen this time around...
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It's so weird not being able to chronoboost after all those years. But it seems fine so far. I like the damage on the zealots.
The disruptor feels way better, but I think the projectile needs to be slower, but it also last a bit longer. Now it's really fast and makes it hard for any reaction on the opponents part I think.
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i'm really glad Blizzard went through with it and had the balls to remove the MULE and Chronoboost and nerfed Larva Inject.
this should be an interesting week.
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what's the deal with adding the medivac upgrade when they haven't change the issue with medic dropping tanks in seige mode?
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LOTV was already awkward with so many gimmick things, now i simply see no reason of playing it.
I hope KOR scene stay on HOTS for long like when Blizzard release a bad map pool and KOR tournaments stay on the old map.
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sadly disruptor is harder to scream in korean than RIBORIBORIBORIBORIBO
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The game is obviously in a shit state right now but the ideas are good. It obviously needs rebalancing and some design tweaks.
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SoCal8933 Posts
so far it feels pretty good on the terran end of things. i've had to make a couple adjustments to my build orders, but overall i like the pacing that i've found to get my tvz mech build up and running.
i did lose to a warp prism adept all in though, so i gotta figure out the timing on that one XD
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So sad, the game was so good outside of a few minor balance issues before. It was fast, fun, and now it just feels slow and boring IMO. I'm really hoping these get reverted. I like all the other stuff but the macro removal was probably the worst change ever.
Worst part is, not only is it less fun to me, but the balance is going to be off for ages.
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On August 21 2015 14:48 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 14:16 TT1 wrote:On August 21 2015 14:01 pure.Wasted wrote:On August 21 2015 12:58 TT1 wrote:On August 21 2015 11:13 pure.Wasted wrote:On August 21 2015 07:44 Big J wrote:
It's pretty sad though when you watch a first person view of soO during a combat and what he does is presplit stuff and make a concave and all that cool shit and then the action starts and he a-moves and goes inject. (paraphrasing Teoita from TL Strat Chat) That's all well and good, but at present, soO's just going to be staring at his A+moving army instead of at his base. I'm flabbergasted by the Zealot change. Just absolutely flabbergasted. Let's go through this step-by-step. PROBLEM: Protoss is the easiest race to master EXAMPLE: Protoss mid/lategame harassment is extremely powerful but requires very little input; stopping the flow of Warp Prismed Zealots as your Terran bio gets caught out piecemeal is very punishing. Not only does it require little input, it provides no opportunities for a pro to distinguish himself if he wanted to (and he does). SOLUTION: Make Protoss harassment more powerful by default with zero new input requirements! Make Warp Prisms warp Zealots in even faster! Lower the skill floor! Don't touch that skill ceiling! I... just... what? yea ok, except i need seperate hotkeys for adepts, hts, stalkers, phoenixs, oracles and disruptors because theyre all high tier micro units w/ abilities (and im not even counting lower tier micro units like sentrys, immortals, voids and tempests).. on top of that i need to hotkey shit like my warpprism and mothership core, but yea protoss is an a-move race right? sry bro but you have no idea what you're talking about. lotv protoss is by far the most micro intensive and hotkey intensive race, not even close. Hey, nothing would make me happier than you being right. To help me gauge your perspective, would you say that in HOTS Protoss takes more mechanical skill than Terran on average? About the same? Slightly less? A lot less? Abysmally less? obviously less, the colossus made it that way but that unit is unusable in legacy. different game, MUCH different units. I have my doubts that replacing the Colossus with a harder to use unit single-handedly solves the mechanical disparity, in particular because Zealot runbys are still as easy to perform but now more powerful than ever, the MSC still defends your expansion with the press of one button (tomorrow can't come fast enough), and unmicroed Adepts are a hard counter to early bio. So when you say that Protoss is the most micro intensive race in LOTV, I have to wonder if that isn't in large part because the race is still unequipped to play a LOTV-style expansion game. And when the balancing stage of the beta rolls around, and Protoss gets the buffs that are inevitably on their way, will the micro requirement remain as demanding as you find it now? That's where I have my doubts.
in hots protoss could deal with bio mine comps and drops by going stalker colossus (into chargelot archon eventually) which was an easy, a-movey comp, all it took was 2 control groups to micro that army properly. in legacy you have to deal with bio mine/drops AND liberators by going for phoenix based compositions (phoenix + sentry + adept + disruptors, that right there is is at least 4 control groups for a standard pvt comp) which is WAY more micro intensive, its a whole different ball game.
tvp army compositions are completely different in legacy.. and this is coming from someone whos been rank 1 gm in legacy several times already (even tho thats not saying much but i think i still have a decent grasp of the game).
anywho zerg is benefiting the most (by far) from the current patch, the ai is basically playing the game for them.. which is pretty ridiculous. i dont think we want sc2 to be heading in that direction.
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On August 21 2015 14:43 Bazik wrote:
it's really interesting this notion that now Zerg macro is easier than the other races when it was common knowledge that Zerg always had the the highest macro needs of the three races, if anything all three races are now closer together Zerg prob still has the problem of still needing to manage more bases and creep spreading, Zerg also as no queues.
This idea that the only thing that made Zerg macro hard was injecting is pure nonsense imo.
Zerg had higher macro needs than the other two races? LOL
Spacebar shift-V leftclick was so hard eh?
Stop being so preposterous.
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On August 10 2015 22:09 egrimm wrote:
can't we just have Reaver with controllable scarabs ?
Yes! 
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Zealots are way overpowered.
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EPT
