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On June 14 2015 20:54 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2015 20:24 BlackLilium wrote:On June 13 2015 21:34 plotspot wrote:
An entire new ability to counter Ultras. Why not do as others have suggested and integrate it into an upgrade of snipe. Vital Points Auto-Tracking: Snipe reduces Armor by 3 for 5s or something. You could just bring the old snipe? It was a pretty good counter to ultras already! Old Snipe was counter to everything, not just Ultras. You are not supposed to just mass one and have answers to everything, like old Infestors were... And Snipe reducing armor by 2-3 sounds like great idea to be honest.
Here is earlier discussion about this topic:
(source)
+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account.
In comparison with Heart of the Swarm (and including the marauder change), this reduces marine damage from 2 to 0.5 which is a 75% nerf, and it reduces marauder damage from 17 to 10 which is a 41% nerf. Of course the marauder nerf is more significant since they constitute a higher portion of damage output. Using a sample unit composition of 3:1 for marines:marauders, the damage output goes down by 47%, so nearly 50%.
It's funny that I incorrectly remembered the ultralisk change, thinking it was only improved by a single armor point, but I already considered that to be worrisome in conjunction with the marauder attack rearrangement. I really doubt this change will survive to the release version. These values seem too extreme and it will force Blizzard to create other counters to the ultralisk, perhaps ones that have more binary interactions like the current cyclone or the old snipe. The thor is another candidate for a unit that could be given anti-ultralisk capability.
Maybe if snipe not only ignored armor but also reduced armor for about two seconds? That way you could use ghosts with your bio composition, but it would require some timing sense and would add complication to the (boring?) kiting micro. I don't know if that's fun though. There is precedent for armor reduction in the devourer's acid spores ability from Brood War and faerie fire from Warcraft 3. And the idea of highlighting focus firing and pullback micro, which is more common in smaller scale fights but loses its purpose in larger scale fights, is also noticeable in the design of the immortal shield. On April 27 2015 22:41 hZCube wrote:
And then all units get rebalanced around minus armor from a ghost snipe, and any terran player playing without ghosts is just going to practically default lose to overbalanced units?
Unless, the minus armor only affects ultras - but that would be wierd and counterintuitive, and make the ghost a specific unit counter.
Just doesn't seem intuitive is all. On April 27 2015 22:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
eh, I hate the Ghost idea in terms of countering ultras. It's building on a boring idea with another boring idea.
Both units need some love but not in that way imo. Revert ultra armor to 6 and buff elsewhere. On April 27 2015 20:40 Isualin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Maybe if snipe not only ignored armor but also reduced armor for about two seconds? That way you could use ghosts with your bio composition, but it would require some timing sense and would add complication to the (boring?) kiting micro. I don't know if that's fun though. This is a good idea imo. Kinda like holo targeting from xcom. That way terran players can get few ghosts and snipe each big enemy once for max efficiency On April 27 2015 22:56 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 22:41 hZCube wrote:
And then all units get rebalanced around minus armor from a ghost snipe, and any terran player playing without ghosts is just going to practically default lose to overbalanced units?
Unless, the minus armor only affects ultras - but that would be wierd and counterintuitive, and make the ghost a specific unit counter.
Just doesn't seem intuitive is all. Two things: first of all the armor debuff would be attached to snipe and would mainly be meaningful when used on high health biological units, meaning ultralisks, brood lords, swarm hosts and lurkers; second of all, because of the way that armor is calculated, any armor debuff is especially helpful vs units with high armor to begin with and furthermore it's best used in conjunction with marines. Both serve to limit the number of strongly affected interactions and giving a two armor debuff to ghost snipe mainly affects the marine vs ultralisk interaction. This change to snipe probably won't force Blizzard to add higher armor to every zerg unit in the game. I'm not saying it's a good idea and that Blizzard should implement it, but your concerns seem a bit over the top. Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 22:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
eh, I hate the Ghost idea in terms of countering ultras. It's building on a boring idea with another boring idea.
Both units need some love but not in that way imo. Revert ultra armor to 6 and buff elsewhere. Yeah, I mainly devised it as a way to keep bio playable vs ultralisks with the new 5+3 armor, so it serves as a bandaid to fix the 8 armor ultralisk, but obviously it would be a pointless idea with 3+3 armor ultralisks. On April 27 2015 23:05 Isualin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 22:41 hZCube wrote:
And then all units get rebalanced around minus armor from a ghost snipe, and any terran player playing without ghosts is just going to practically default lose to overbalanced units?
Unless, the minus armor only affects ultras - but that would be wierd and counterintuitive, and make the ghost a specific unit counter.
Just doesn't seem intuitive is all. I don't think sniping roaches, ling/blings or hydras would be time efficient for the terran player in later stages of the game. But maybe we might see timing attacks with ghosts. This would be a reason to use ghosts against a zerg all the time(They have emp to use them against P already) On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong  But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled.
To summarize, the main drawback is that reducing armor is especially useful vs high armor targets, meaning that this snipe change becomes very specialized to work well vs ultralisks. It's kind of like introducing a problem to the game and then adding a targeted counter; it reduces the flexibility and forces you to streamline your play, while adding complexity to the game. It raises the question of what is the added value of the eight armor ultralisk to begin with. Another concern is that it might still be good vs units like brood lords.
Blizzard's proposal legitimizes the idea that there is a problem with the new ultralisk that ought to be solved by counter mechanics, which is why I think people respond well to the ghost snipe suggestion in this thread. But that doesn't mean that you should necessarily buy into Blizzard's framing, there are other solutions such as rolling back the ultralisk armor change.
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hmmm seems unlikely I'll be playing LotV for anything more than the singleplayer at this rate.
Not saying I think these changes are bad but as someone who was consistently high diamond (9 seasons in a row) I just can't keep up with things now, the game is crazy fast and my micro was never my strong point. Playing the beta just makes me feel crap and I just don't have the time or desire to play the game enough, there's such a gulf between what I want to do and what I'm physically able to do.
This never really was a casual game though so I suppose I can't really be surprised, maybe archon mode will be fun a while and help deal with that problem
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On June 14 2015 21:31 adwodon wrote:hmmm seems unlikely I'll be playing LotV for anything more than the singleplayer at this rate. Not saying I think these changes are bad but as someone who was consistently high diamond (9 seasons in a row) I just can't keep up with things now, the game is crazy fast and my micro was never my strong point. Playing the beta just makes me feel crap and I just don't have the time or desire to play the game enough, there's such a gulf between what I want to do and what I'm physically able to do. This never really was a casual game though so I suppose I can't really be surprised, maybe archon mode will be fun a while and help deal with that problem
How was sc2 not a casual game?
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On June 13 2015 22:38 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
I guess that there are answers for most of those questions, which we are either not aware of, or would not like (and therefore find it hard to accept as valid answer.)
This is exactly why they should communicate more. The more they communicate, the less resources they have for other tasks. To fully explain decisions would require the reader to have a comparable level of game design experience.
Blizzard is much more talkative than in earlier days, but I also see more complaints that they don't communicate enough.
Show nested quote +As this is an expansion though, the developers probably want to stick with most of the existing artwork and gameplay. LotV tries to be an improvement upon HotS, it is not Starcraft re-invented. Artwork? Noone is talking about that. Redesigns of units can also easily be done without any programmers.
The high-quality community feedback you mention later in your postings still reflects only a small part of the playerbase's needs. As a developer, you try to have the entire userbase in mind. Since the resources are limited, you have to weight providing features for the hardcore userbase versus an appeal to casual users. In the end, neither needs will be completely met.
The aforementioned feedback, while some of it is really thought-out, does not show any experience of how development works and what is possible in how much time.
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The more they communicate, the less resources they have for other tasks.
Es I explained in my comment. If you already know the answers in answer, it really doesn't take very long time to respond to the highest quality feedback. 15-20 minute a day at most! If they have 3-4 designers working fulltime on Starcraft, this should easily be doable. Also noone is demanding that the developers read through all of the feedback, but rather the job of the community managers could be to find the best 5-20 posts a week and link them to the developers.
To fully explain decisions would require the reader to have a comparable level of game design experience.
This doesn't make sense. Even assuming Blizzard has this special knowledge (which is unlikely given the responses to depth of micro and DH), that doesn't imply that they can't explain their thought proces. It happens all the time in the world that someone who knows more about a subject explains certain things to someone who knows less about the subject.
Secondly, if they really had this super special knowledge, why on earth wouldn't you take advantage of it in order to (a) improve the brand-value of the company and (b) service the hardcore customers?
Think about how the perception of Blizzard would change if they - just once in a while (not every day or week) wrote very detailed analysis of various design decisions. Where they went through all of the variables that impact how units should be designed. If they really had this knowledge, why wouldn't you make it apparent to the gaming world that the design employees of Blizzard/Starcraft are super brilliant? That's free advertising right there for Blizzard!
On the other hand, every time we have seem David Kim make comments in the public he has either shown a lack of understanding or has made inconsistent/overly simplified arguments. That wouldn't be an issue if he and his team actually had a track-record of consistently delievering results. But that's not the case. The Blizzard development team in fact has a track-record of frequent design (and balance) errors.
At the end of the day, you need to ask your self what is more likely. When someone walks like a duck and talks like a duck, why would you continue to assume he is some type of brilliant mastermind who has all these fantastic reasons for not doing something that the community just is incapable of understanding.
You seem to assume that because Blizzard is an AAA company, all of its design developers are also super smart and analytical. But that's not neccesarily the case if hiring-methodology isn't focussed on acquiring and rewarding the most analytical candidates, but instead values other "qualities".
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Abilities.... everywhere.. T_T I am starting to give up on this game.. I might just accept that starcraft will no longer be part of my life..
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 14 2015 18:23 stargunner wrote:
i'm troubled by the fact that the ghost drone ability is the best thing they could think of to deal with 7 armor ultras
Instead of just lowering the armor of ultras, we are going to introduce a lot of wonky relationships once +3 attack is done on the Terran army. It effectively removes the armor ups of the opponent if they have +3 armor vs +3 attack.
Its of course only gonna be useful vs high value targets but its still going to be a very strong spell and primarily because ultras are too good :/
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On June 15 2015 01:29 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2015 18:23 stargunner wrote:
i'm troubled by the fact that the ghost drone ability is the best thing they could think of to deal with 7 armor ultras Instead of just lowering the armor of ultras, we are going to introduce a lot of wonky relationships once +3 attack is done on the Terran army. It effectively removes the armor ups of the opponent if they have +3 armor vs +3 attack. Its of course only gonna be useful vs high value targets but its still going to be a very strong spell and primarily because ultras are too good :/
Yes, this is the exact opposite of my design philosphy. I believe that we should minimize the abilities that doesn't reward players for moving their units.
In this case, Blizzard are not actually creating any new microinteractions into the game, they are just adding more spambased abilities for the pure sake of having more spambased abilities. I would have prefered if they just had made the Ultralisk faster off-creep along with a lower model size. Instead they increased the armor of the Ultralisk and make it counterable through a spambased ability.
For each patch, I am getting less and less interested in the game.
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On June 15 2015 03:44 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 01:29 ZeromuS wrote:On June 14 2015 18:23 stargunner wrote:
i'm troubled by the fact that the ghost drone ability is the best thing they could think of to deal with 7 armor ultras Instead of just lowering the armor of ultras, we are going to introduce a lot of wonky relationships once +3 attack is done on the Terran army. It effectively removes the armor ups of the opponent if they have +3 armor vs +3 attack. Its of course only gonna be useful vs high value targets but its still going to be a very strong spell and primarily because ultras are too good :/ Yes, this is the exact opposite of my design philosphy. I believe that we should minimize the abilities that doesn't reward players for moving their units. So basically spam-based abilities should be removed! In this case, Blizzard are not actually creating any new microinteractions into the game, they are just adding more spambased abilities for the pure sake of having more spambased abilities. I would have prefered if they just had made the Ultralisk faster off-creep along with a lower model size instead of increasing its armor and making the armor counterable through a spambased ability. For each patch, I am getting less and less interested in the game.
I'm getting more and more interested as each patch comes out, because all the big whiners that say they're getting less and less interested are getting that much closer to just not playing the game or visiting these forums at all!
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On June 15 2015 01:29 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2015 18:23 stargunner wrote:
i'm troubled by the fact that the ghost drone ability is the best thing they could think of to deal with 7 armor ultras Instead of just lowering the armor of ultras, we are going to introduce a lot of wonky relationships once +3 attack is done on the Terran army. It effectively removes the armor ups of the opponent if they have +3 armor vs +3 attack. Its of course only gonna be useful vs high value targets but its still going to be a very strong spell and primarily because ultras are too good :/
I thimnk the problem will be that capital units will be easily sniped by Bio units because they are burst. That will work ok vs Ultralisks because it will counter the buff Ultras have recieved in LotV, but will put key units in PvT that are relatively fragile (Archons, Colossi, Disrutpros) in a very bad position.
I think it's very obvious.... Ultralisks have recieved several buffs over the years since WoL beta to justify their cost and empower their usage (life increase, damage increase, splash increase, now armor increase). LOTV Armor increase was very oriented towards making ultras more viable vs Bio, since it's the only burst-damage compo that Ultralisks will face most of the time. Ultras work fairly well vs Protoss in HotS, and now even more since Immortals have been nerfed (3/3 ultras deal 44 per attack to immortals instead of 10, and barrier only lasts for 2-3 attacks).
Since Marauder has been nerfed, Bio is already weaker vs ultralisks than in HotS.
HotS Ultralisks maxed (6 armor) would block 6/26 points of damage from a HotS marauder. (23%)
HotS Ultralisks maxed (6 armor) would block 12/26 points of damage from a LotV marauder. (46%)
Could we study if with the Marauder nerf only Ultras are decently viable before buffing them?
Why not simply waiting before Ultralisk buffs and taking a close eye on other potential units that could be used against them?
Blizz's philosophy of "mamma knows best" is very irritating. There is no good reasoning behind some changes. Last Adept changes also showed it.
The first Adept concept was balanced around the idea of having a strong weapon that could apply lategame splash vs minor units. However, the cost of the upgrade was prohibitive and the unit was very clunky due to damage point. What did they do? They buffed Adept HP and removed the upgrade; they didn't even tried to promote their adept design to see how it could work. They exchanged it with an idiotic ultratanky design because it's the only thing that they could think of to make Adepts good vs bio.At least community suggestion made it and they changed damage point too.
However, the first thing that they should have changed when removing splash damage upgrade IMAO is to change weapon speed and damage, since the original concept was balanced around it. But not, DK logic was very, very stupid. They though, "hey, we removed an upgrade that made Adept's attack really strong vs light, swarmy units, so they attack different now, what should we do now that their attack is shit? let's just give them 50% HP at low cost"
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We’d like to have the option to go Mutalisks in some ZvZ games, so we’re reducing the +bio damage of Spore Crawlers. We’re looking for Spore Crawlers to still counter Mutalisks well, but at the same time, we don’t want Mutalisks to almost never be used in the matchup. --> Not gonna happen with the Viper's Para Bomb. Nobody enjoys working to a decent mutacount and seeing it evaporate in miliseconds.
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On June 15 2015 04:13 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 03:44 Hider wrote:On June 15 2015 01:29 ZeromuS wrote:On June 14 2015 18:23 stargunner wrote:
i'm troubled by the fact that the ghost drone ability is the best thing they could think of to deal with 7 armor ultras Instead of just lowering the armor of ultras, we are going to introduce a lot of wonky relationships once +3 attack is done on the Terran army. It effectively removes the armor ups of the opponent if they have +3 armor vs +3 attack. Its of course only gonna be useful vs high value targets but its still going to be a very strong spell and primarily because ultras are too good :/ Yes, this is the exact opposite of my design philosphy. I believe that we should minimize the abilities that doesn't reward players for moving their units. So basically spam-based abilities should be removed! In this case, Blizzard are not actually creating any new microinteractions into the game, they are just adding more spambased abilities for the pure sake of having more spambased abilities. I would have prefered if they just had made the Ultralisk faster off-creep along with a lower model size instead of increasing its armor and making the armor counterable through a spambased ability. For each patch, I am getting less and less interested in the game. I'm getting more and more interested as each patch comes out, because all the big whiners that say they're getting less and less interested are getting that much closer to just not playing the game or visiting these forums at all!
Could not agree with this more. There are way too many people in this thread who think they know what's best for the game but don't.
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On June 15 2015 04:13 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 03:44 Hider wrote:On June 15 2015 01:29 ZeromuS wrote:On June 14 2015 18:23 stargunner wrote:
i'm troubled by the fact that the ghost drone ability is the best thing they could think of to deal with 7 armor ultras Instead of just lowering the armor of ultras, we are going to introduce a lot of wonky relationships once +3 attack is done on the Terran army. It effectively removes the armor ups of the opponent if they have +3 armor vs +3 attack. Its of course only gonna be useful vs high value targets but its still going to be a very strong spell and primarily because ultras are too good :/ Yes, this is the exact opposite of my design philosphy. I believe that we should minimize the abilities that doesn't reward players for moving their units. So basically spam-based abilities should be removed! In this case, Blizzard are not actually creating any new microinteractions into the game, they are just adding more spambased abilities for the pure sake of having more spambased abilities. I would have prefered if they just had made the Ultralisk faster off-creep along with a lower model size instead of increasing its armor and making the armor counterable through a spambased ability. For each patch, I am getting less and less interested in the game. I'm getting more and more interested as each patch comes out, because all the big whiners that say they're getting less and less interested are getting that much closer to just not playing the game or visiting these forums at all!
I still play the game (HotS and LotV) and genuinely care for it. I'm appalled at the direction taken so far and at the lack of communication ; I have to say I find HotS a hundred times more solid than LotV. So yeah, it's probably good to wipe the players that genuinely care for the game out of the equation, since it's quite obvious since Blizzcon we're going to be horribly disappointed.
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On June 15 2015 05:18 SnareSpectre wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 04:13 ohmylanta1003 wrote:On June 15 2015 03:44 Hider wrote:On June 15 2015 01:29 ZeromuS wrote:On June 14 2015 18:23 stargunner wrote:
i'm troubled by the fact that the ghost drone ability is the best thing they could think of to deal with 7 armor ultras Instead of just lowering the armor of ultras, we are going to introduce a lot of wonky relationships once +3 attack is done on the Terran army. It effectively removes the armor ups of the opponent if they have +3 armor vs +3 attack. Its of course only gonna be useful vs high value targets but its still going to be a very strong spell and primarily because ultras are too good :/ Yes, this is the exact opposite of my design philosphy. I believe that we should minimize the abilities that doesn't reward players for moving their units. So basically spam-based abilities should be removed! In this case, Blizzard are not actually creating any new microinteractions into the game, they are just adding more spambased abilities for the pure sake of having more spambased abilities. I would have prefered if they just had made the Ultralisk faster off-creep along with a lower model size instead of increasing its armor and making the armor counterable through a spambased ability. For each patch, I am getting less and less interested in the game. I'm getting more and more interested as each patch comes out, because all the big whiners that say they're getting less and less interested are getting that much closer to just not playing the game or visiting these forums at all! Could not agree with this more. There are way too many people in this thread who think they know what's best for the game but don't.
Yeh, I agree, I for one think that blizzard has proven themselves above criticism with the way the game has been designed and played. I think introducing an 8 armor ultralisk was brilliant, and completely necessary, and following on from that I believe that creating another ability to counter that is just what is needed.
In all seriousness though I'm about 99% certain that the people who say things like that are the first people to change games while the people who genuinely play the game are left with a game that's mediocre in comparison to what it could be.
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On June 15 2015 04:13 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 03:44 Hider wrote:On June 15 2015 01:29 ZeromuS wrote:On June 14 2015 18:23 stargunner wrote:
i'm troubled by the fact that the ghost drone ability is the best thing they could think of to deal with 7 armor ultras Instead of just lowering the armor of ultras, we are going to introduce a lot of wonky relationships once +3 attack is done on the Terran army. It effectively removes the armor ups of the opponent if they have +3 armor vs +3 attack. Its of course only gonna be useful vs high value targets but its still going to be a very strong spell and primarily because ultras are too good :/ Yes, this is the exact opposite of my design philosphy. I believe that we should minimize the abilities that doesn't reward players for moving their units. So basically spam-based abilities should be removed! In this case, Blizzard are not actually creating any new microinteractions into the game, they are just adding more spambased abilities for the pure sake of having more spambased abilities. I would have prefered if they just had made the Ultralisk faster off-creep along with a lower model size instead of increasing its armor and making the armor counterable through a spambased ability. For each patch, I am getting less and less interested in the game. I'm getting more and more interested as each patch comes out, because all the big whiners that say they're getting less and less interested are getting that much closer to just not playing the game or visiting these forums at all!
I'm getting more and more interested as the utopian world grows closer where all negative thoughts are eradicated by thought police and everyone wets their pants in excitement as they lap up every word that comes out of the leaders (in this case DK) mouth. Oh I can't wait!!!
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On June 15 2015 04:31 Turbo.Tactics wrote:Show nested quote +We’d like to have the option to go Mutalisks in some ZvZ games, so we’re reducing the +bio damage of Spore Crawlers. We’re looking for Spore Crawlers to still counter Mutalisks well, but at the same time, we don’t want Mutalisks to almost never be used in the matchup. --> Not gonna happen with the Viper's Para Bomb. Nobody enjoys working to a decent mutacount and seeing it evaporate in miliseconds.
I never understood the rationale for the extreme +bio damage to spore crawlers to begin with. 15+15 was always a more obvious value to pick first and it wouldn't have privileged roach-based plays over mutalisks so much. I think this is an example where Blizzard needed to have communicated to explain why they made this decision instead of being silent and then eventually reverting to the in-between value two years later.
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On June 15 2015 06:18 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 04:31 Turbo.Tactics wrote:We’d like to have the option to go Mutalisks in some ZvZ games, so we’re reducing the +bio damage of Spore Crawlers. We’re looking for Spore Crawlers to still counter Mutalisks well, but at the same time, we don’t want Mutalisks to almost never be used in the matchup. --> Not gonna happen with the Viper's Para Bomb. Nobody enjoys working to a decent mutacount and seeing it evaporate in miliseconds. I never understood the rationale for the extreme +bio damage to spore crawlers to begin with. 15+15 was always a more obvious value to pick first and it wouldn't have privileged roach-based plays over mutalisks so much. I think this is an example where Blizzard needed to have communicated to explain why they made this decision instead of being silent and then eventually reverting to the in-between value two years later.
They did try 15+15 initially in the HOTS beta, but it turned out it wasn't enough. (Muta vs Muta still dominated ZvZ). Personally I think they should have opted for 15+15 combined with 12+4 vs bio for Hydralisks anti-air attack.
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On June 15 2015 06:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 06:18 Grumbels wrote:On June 15 2015 04:31 Turbo.Tactics wrote:We’d like to have the option to go Mutalisks in some ZvZ games, so we’re reducing the +bio damage of Spore Crawlers. We’re looking for Spore Crawlers to still counter Mutalisks well, but at the same time, we don’t want Mutalisks to almost never be used in the matchup. --> Not gonna happen with the Viper's Para Bomb. Nobody enjoys working to a decent mutacount and seeing it evaporate in miliseconds. I never understood the rationale for the extreme +bio damage to spore crawlers to begin with. 15+15 was always a more obvious value to pick first and it wouldn't have privileged roach-based plays over mutalisks so much. I think this is an example where Blizzard needed to have communicated to explain why they made this decision instead of being silent and then eventually reverting to the in-between value two years later. They did try 15+15 initially in the HOTS beta, but it turned out it wasn't enough. (Muta vs Muta still dominated ZvZ). Personally I think they should have opted for 15+15 combined with 12+4 vs bio for Hydralisks anti-air attack.
Oh, I remembered that differently then. Irecall thinking +30 was an extreme value..
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On June 15 2015 07:17 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2015 06:57 Hider wrote:On June 15 2015 06:18 Grumbels wrote:On June 15 2015 04:31 Turbo.Tactics wrote:We’d like to have the option to go Mutalisks in some ZvZ games, so we’re reducing the +bio damage of Spore Crawlers. We’re looking for Spore Crawlers to still counter Mutalisks well, but at the same time, we don’t want Mutalisks to almost never be used in the matchup. --> Not gonna happen with the Viper's Para Bomb. Nobody enjoys working to a decent mutacount and seeing it evaporate in miliseconds. I never understood the rationale for the extreme +bio damage to spore crawlers to begin with. 15+15 was always a more obvious value to pick first and it wouldn't have privileged roach-based plays over mutalisks so much. I think this is an example where Blizzard needed to have communicated to explain why they made this decision instead of being silent and then eventually reverting to the in-between value two years later. They did try 15+15 initially in the HOTS beta, but it turned out it wasn't enough. (Muta vs Muta still dominated ZvZ). Personally I think they should have opted for 15+15 combined with 12+4 vs bio for Hydralisks anti-air attack. Oh, I remembered that differently then. Irecall thinking +30 was an extreme value..
IMAO spore crawlers should do splash damage vs biological (only biological!). It would heavily discourage big muta flocks, but drops could become a strat again and BL could be again abducted (Imao ULtralisks should be able to be abducted too).
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I'm not super excited about the new Ghost ability, though I never was a big fan of Snipe (especially since it became anti-caster.) It's probably just gonna be a slight improvement to the unit. As for the move speed increase, I don't like it that much, I also hope they revisit the 75 starting energy and balance the unit around standard 50 energy. Perhaps changing it's cost back to that of more traditional spell casters, high gas/low mineral ratio.
I don't want Individual Overlord Transport at all, I think this is something that makes Zerg very special. How it's an evolvement for the entire species.
However if they go through with this they could make a theme out of it, since the Overseer is already there, so here's an idea of mine:
+ Show Spoiler +Overlord Ventral Sacs upgrade removed.
Overlord Hive Mind upgrade added.
Overseer costs changed from (150)50/50 to (100)0/50.
Overseer no longer provide supply (They don't cost supply either, so can be made while Supply blocked.)
Contaminate energy cost changed from 125 to 75.
New unit added: Overbearer added (Morphed from Overlord.)
Overbearer costs (100)0/50.
Overbearer does not provide supply (They don't cost supply either, so can be made while Supply blocked.)
Overbearer has 8 cargo capacity and speed similar to the Overseer.
Hive Mind costs 150/150.
Provides a 100 energy ability to the Overseer which temporarily, globally gives all your Overlords detection.
Also provides +1 vision.
Provides a long cooldown ability to the Overbearer which temporarily gives all Overlords +1 armor and Ventral Sacs.
(When the ability ends Overlords can no longer load up units, but they can still drop the current cargo.)
Medivac unload delay is just a big no no. Terran buffs should really be allocated at something that is not the Medivac, it already plays a too integral part of Terran. I understand they want an upgrade which is researched instead of a forgotten upgrade, but then here's an idea. Make Medivac Speed Boost an upgrade.
Disruptor Damage Increased from 145 to 145 +55 Shields Show nested quote +Disruptors aren’t very effective in the PvP mirror matchup, so we wanted a targeted change that only affects that matchup.
I don't know where they get this from, I've been playing Disruptors and it removes Death Balls in all matchups, even PvP.
You realize how much 200 AoE dmg is? 2x of these and they kill even Colossus/Archon/Immortals and you force some kind of weird only air metagame+Disruptors.
I'm pretty sure 145 dmg is enough, it's funny how on some areas they really want us to test it out and think, maybe you guys just haven't figured out how to play the matchup yet? Well.. I think this is one of them.
Rest is good, though I think Ravager AoE needs to be a tad bigger. Viper Parasitic Bomb needs to not stack, but this is a commonly requested change.
Spore Crawler Damage Decreased from 15 +30 Bio to 15 +15 Bio
I just wish they would go all the way, remove +Bio tag and try to balance the game around few Mutas being viable, but eventually getting faded out by: Spore/Queen/Hydra/Parasitic Bomb/Fungal Growth.
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EPT
