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interesting changes, but sadly no real change for protoss. I honestly hope they just want to fine tune zerg and terran before they sit down to rework protoss.
At the state theyre in now, they are not very interesting.
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On June 17 2015 17:24 Parcelleus wrote:
I dont like teh Disruptor at all. Too much luck is tied to it (whether the opponent is reacting correctly), the Colossus at least gives the Protoss player more control in deciding the damage delt.
How is that luck?
That is the skill of your opponent and not luck. There is no luck involved in splitting your army. It is skill vs skill.
But the question is, does the protoss player need as much skill to use the Disruptor effectively as the enemy player needs to avoid its damage?
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On June 17 2015 20:19 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 17:24 Parcelleus wrote:
I dont like teh Disruptor at all. Too much luck is tied to it (whether the opponent is reacting correctly), the Colossus at least gives the Protoss player more control in deciding the damage delt. How is that luck? That is the skill of your opponent and not luck. There is no luck involved in splitting your army. It is skill vs skill. But the question is, does the protoss player need as much skill to use the Disruptor effectively as the enemy player needs to avoid its damage?
Obviously landing a hit is quite easier than avoiding it. However, I think its relatively balanced, don't forget that even with the speed boost the Disruptor moves only at Stim speed (3.39) so you need constant attention, and the very high gas cost of the Disruptor + Friendly Fire makes it relatively difficult to land a GOOD hit to justify the potential loss of the Disruptor. It obviously depends of which units do you use it against. Because Disruptors suck bit vs bio, Stalkers just blink, Zerglings just move out, etc.. But obviously Roach/Hydras have a harder time when off-creep (so Disruptor acts there as a defensive unit).
Many units are easier to use and get damage out than to counter them, so it's not like it is gonna be the end of the world if it's a bit easier to use than to counter... I only see the problem of the movement system being too clump-friendly by default. They should test something about it, sligthtly increasing the Mixed Formation Value.
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On June 17 2015 19:35 weikor wrote:
I honestly hope they just want to fine tune zerg and terran before they sit down to rework protoss.
Which would make no sense at all. How could you finetune Zerg and Terran when there are drastic changes to the ZvP and TvP matchups on the horizon due to a an upcoming protoss rework?
There won't be a rework, just fiddling with stats.
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On June 17 2015 23:21 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 19:35 weikor wrote:
I honestly hope they just want to fine tune zerg and terran before they sit down to rework protoss. Which would make no sense at all. How could you finetune Zerg and Terran when there are drastic changes to the ZvP and TvP matchups on the horizon due to a an upcoming protoss rework? There won't be a rework, just fiddling with stats.
It's quite a shame that they don't get brave enough to rework a bit Protoss Macro, standarizing it, and just give Gateways the same build times as Warpgates for early game aggression instead of turtling.
Protoss has had the exclusive design of early game free macrobooster at a huge cost for the race. Weakest macrobooster (even if more versatile) and weakest production early game while having Warpgate placed at a tech level and costs that makes it very all-in friendly and considering its functionality.
They should look back at Pre-beta adjustements of Protoss Macro, since the last hour changes didn't go very well.
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Obviously landing a hit is quite easier than avoiding it. However, I think its relatively balanced, don't forget that even with the speed boost the Disruptor moves only at Stim speed (3.39)
The Disruptor moves at 2.25 * 1.67 = 3.7575 (using old Blizzard-time units rather than real time) when activated, which is noticeably faster than stim bio.
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On June 18 2015 00:34 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +Obviously landing a hit is quite easier than avoiding it. However, I think its relatively balanced, don't forget that even with the speed boost the Disruptor moves only at Stim speed (3.39) The Disruptor moves at 2.25 * 1.67 = 3.7575 (using old Blizzard-time units rather than real time) when activated, which is noticeably faster than stim bio.
Didn't they change it to 50% before release? If not, then I'm fooled, my bad.
I've been messing around with the Fan Mod to test some ideas and I saw 1.5, so maybe it's outdated or my mind just came up with it while I try to avoid studying (something that is very possible too XD)
Can anyone confirm it on game client plz?
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Liquipedia still lists it as a 67% speed boost. Then again, it says it's light, so it may not be up to date in that respect. But that datamined client data when the beta was released said 67%, and I don't think any of the balance updates have changed that (or if they did, they haven't mentioned it).
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On June 16 2015 18:31 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2015 17:21 [F_]aths wrote:On June 16 2015 13:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 15 2015 20:10 [F_]aths wrote:
When an amateur suggests how to do something in which I have professional experience, it is in most cases wrong on so many levels. Even though it appears to be reasonable to other amateurs. They just don't know all the implications. That does not mean I consider myself brilliant or a mastermind. There is still a very, very large gap in the level of understanding an issue. On June 16 2015 12:43 bo1b wrote:
and the simple fact is that for most of that time the community has not known what the kark is going on. And I am the definition of an amateur here, I don't get paid to do this. Let's see how my crazy ideas posted back in the HOTS Beta panned out... if I knew what the kark I was doing... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viableOctober 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "Furthermore, when dropped from Medivacs Hellbats easily wipe out a mineral line in a few shots with it's wide arc of fire. Think pre-nerf Blue Flame Hellions!" July 11, 2013 - Patch 2.0.9: Hellbat attack damage decreased from 18 + 12 vs. light to 18. October 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "The solution is reduce the cooldown of the Siege Tank from 3.00 to 2.25-2.50" November 11th, 2013 - Patch 2.0.12: Siege Mode attack period decreased from 3.0 to 2.8. October 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "First, remove hardened shields" March 31 2015 - Patch 2.5.0 - Removed Hardened Shield Ability. Now I am not anything special, large parts of the community wanted these changes for long before I suggested them. It's just really sad it took Blizzard so long to catch on, and sad they had to try all their terrible ideas first. Blizzard has shown a clear inability to grasp and predict what will happen when they make changes. The Hellbat is by far my favorite example. They knew what happened with BFH, but they ignorantly repeated that, despite myself and many other amateurs in the community who saw that coming 10 miles away warning them. I specifically warned them 9 months before the patch came out nerfing the Hellbat that it would be BFH all over again. Yes. And many other guys said other things. In the end, there is always someone who told so before. You proposed a lot which was not implemented, like bringing back the medic. You overlook that the large bulk of the game actually works. Blizzard's team therefore must have an ability to grasp and predict. There are some things like the Thor, corruptor, or force field, which I think can be considered a failed design. The Thor was a request of the art team. The corruptor had different roles in the alpha and was not cut later when all was left was a rather boring air superiority unit. The force field sounds interesting on paper but creates new problems. I still consider SC2 a real achievement. There is room to improve on of course. I have no doubt that you know how to improve the game for your needs. The dev team has to consider the entire user base however. blord/infestor rax before the depot inferno pools daedalus swarm host mid game unit 4hellbat drops. mine nerf will promote tank play vZ (my favorite one, show DKim is 100% clueless about his game) 14 range msc vision All these things were blizzard decisions. All these things were stuff everyone with a decent understanding of the game would identify as bullshit. And it took months to correct it everytime. Inferno pool will be played in the WCS final. And it's a shame.
Please weigh those temporary miss steps versus the things the SC2 team did right.
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On June 17 2015 17:56 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 15:48 Grumbels wrote:
You don't have to be an expert designer to tell that something feels wrong about the gameplay. And seemingly enough people share this opinion that it's unsettling the designers never addressed this.
That's the basic idea, it's not about the false dichotomy of whether the community or the developers should design the game, it has more to do with the fact so many people think something is off with the game yet Blizzard ignores them. They have a responsibility to make a good game, this should include listening to community concerns.
Another flawed idea is that either Blizzard should take in all feedback and suggestions and treat them all equally, so that they become overwhelmed with rubbish, or that they should continue insulating themselves. It is actually possible to filter through mud to find the gems, for instance they could start a dialogue with people that have a track record of providing good feedback. They don't just have to implement the top reddit posts directly into the game. I don't think they have the responsability to make a good game tbh. They just have the responsability to do is to make a game that sells.
Personally I don't really agree. On a purely formal level a corporation might be only accountable to its shareholders, but any organisation is still staffed by people that make promises to the customers and that need internal motivation and passion for work and so on. You could slog through the morass of utilitarian rationalizations to justify all such aspects as ways to increase productivity or to improve the company's reputation and so on, but this will get you lost as it's mostly an endless and quite futile endeavor. To me it seems simpler to just replace this with the rule that you have a responsibility to deliver a good product to the best of your abilities barring any serious obstructions. Game designers are not monsters, they can be expected to have ethics.
That is to say, I would understand if Blizzard can't commit to investing more resources into SC2 development because of obscure business reasons, that's their prerogative, but I at least expect them to still try.
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On June 18 2015 06:24 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2015 18:31 sAsImre wrote:On June 16 2015 17:21 [F_]aths wrote:On June 16 2015 13:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 15 2015 20:10 [F_]aths wrote:
When an amateur suggests how to do something in which I have professional experience, it is in most cases wrong on so many levels. Even though it appears to be reasonable to other amateurs. They just don't know all the implications. That does not mean I consider myself brilliant or a mastermind. There is still a very, very large gap in the level of understanding an issue. On June 16 2015 12:43 bo1b wrote:
and the simple fact is that for most of that time the community has not known what the kark is going on. And I am the definition of an amateur here, I don't get paid to do this. Let's see how my crazy ideas posted back in the HOTS Beta panned out... if I knew what the kark I was doing... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viableOctober 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "Furthermore, when dropped from Medivacs Hellbats easily wipe out a mineral line in a few shots with it's wide arc of fire. Think pre-nerf Blue Flame Hellions!" July 11, 2013 - Patch 2.0.9: Hellbat attack damage decreased from 18 + 12 vs. light to 18. October 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "The solution is reduce the cooldown of the Siege Tank from 3.00 to 2.25-2.50" November 11th, 2013 - Patch 2.0.12: Siege Mode attack period decreased from 3.0 to 2.8. October 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "First, remove hardened shields" March 31 2015 - Patch 2.5.0 - Removed Hardened Shield Ability. Now I am not anything special, large parts of the community wanted these changes for long before I suggested them. It's just really sad it took Blizzard so long to catch on, and sad they had to try all their terrible ideas first. Blizzard has shown a clear inability to grasp and predict what will happen when they make changes. The Hellbat is by far my favorite example. They knew what happened with BFH, but they ignorantly repeated that, despite myself and many other amateurs in the community who saw that coming 10 miles away warning them. I specifically warned them 9 months before the patch came out nerfing the Hellbat that it would be BFH all over again. Yes. And many other guys said other things. In the end, there is always someone who told so before. You proposed a lot which was not implemented, like bringing back the medic. You overlook that the large bulk of the game actually works. Blizzard's team therefore must have an ability to grasp and predict. There are some things like the Thor, corruptor, or force field, which I think can be considered a failed design. The Thor was a request of the art team. The corruptor had different roles in the alpha and was not cut later when all was left was a rather boring air superiority unit. The force field sounds interesting on paper but creates new problems. I still consider SC2 a real achievement. There is room to improve on of course. I have no doubt that you know how to improve the game for your needs. The dev team has to consider the entire user base however. blord/infestor rax before the depot inferno pools daedalus swarm host mid game unit 4hellbat drops. mine nerf will promote tank play vZ (my favorite one, show DKim is 100% clueless about his game) 14 range msc vision All these things were blizzard decisions. All these things were stuff everyone with a decent understanding of the game would identify as bullshit. And it took months to correct it everytime. Inferno pool will be played in the WCS final. And it's a shame. Please weigh those temporary miss steps versus the things the SC2 team did right.
The weights of wrongs typically outweigh the weights of the "not wrongs". It's not hard to see why that is, it's not hard to understand the negative implications of errors compared to the non-negative implications of non-errors, considering progamers, corporate interests, etc. Alleviating problems post-fact doesn't magically bring back that which was lost. Even if I were to use the term "positive" instead of "non-negative", the effect is still evident. In arbitrary math terms, a decrease of X% can easily undermine a number of increases of X%.
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On June 16 2015 16:05 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +And I am the definition of an amateur here, I don't get paid to do this. Let's see how my crazy ideas posted back in the HOTS Well, let's see about that. Some quotes from the post you linked to: Show nested quote +Unfortunately the Tempest doesn't do it's job, and the Vortex remains the only effective method for stopping a late game Zerg army. Show nested quote +But why use the Carrier to counter Broodlords and not the Tempest? First, the Tempest simply doesn't have the DPS necessary to deal effectively with Broodlords, even with it's +30 damage upgrade
Let me first say, that you choose the quotes in an effort to highlight that I was wrong with my predictions. Let's explore them, because I was right. Remember I posted that in October, 2012.
Tempest didn't do their job of stopping the lategame Brood army because Zerg could mass Corrupters and overrun them, just like I said in post. And I said that Protoss needed something to deal with mass Corrupters as Vortex has been used for that in WOL. As I said in the article from October 2012:
Removing Vortex requires two things. First, you need a unit that can effectively battle Broodlords at long range, and second, you need a unit to deal with mass Corrupters.
I argued the Tempest did neither, and I was right.
And then Blizzard buffed the Void Ray to counter Corrupters.
Balance Update #8 - December 6th, 2012
Void Ray
Prismatic Beam:
No longer charges up.
Weapon period decreased from 0.6 to 0.5.
No longer does passive +massive damage.
Prismatic Alignment (new ability) increases damage to armored units by 6 for 20 seconds, with a 1 minute cooldown. This does not scale with upgrades.
Volia!
And then they buffed the Tempest, because as I said 2 months earlier, the because the DPS versus Broods wasn't close to being enough.
Balance Update #9 - December 13th, 2012
Tempest
Kinetic Overload weapon damage vs. Massive increased from 30 to 50.
The +massive damage bonus no longer requires an upgrade at the Fleet Beacon. (Done balance update #7)
Volia!
All you gotta do is check the patch notes. This isn't rocket science, it is basic game design. You can predict with a high degree of accuracy the effects of the change prior to said change being made. You can also see, with some thinking, what needs to be done in order to balance the game. If you've ever designed a game, you're able to see these things quickly.
But Blizzard isn't good at it. That's why I can sit here and predict what needs to happen and months later Blizzard comes flying in and makes the change that needed to happen from the start. Or they don't and we're left with the same problems for months on end...
...as we are today. Blizzard never committed to making Mech viable in PvT, so that is that. And because they never tried to seriously make Mech viable, I can't be blamed for my ideas being wrong. My ideas would have worked (probably). I know that, because I understand game design.
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Medivacs are already pretty strong so it is likely not helpful to buff Bio through Medivac. They already polarize player behavior with their uber mobility.
Cyclone and Adept early game strength need to be toned down. Adept drops off in power as the game goes on, though. If gateway is to have any legitimacy, Protoss basics need to carry into the late game. I suggest focusing on making the Adept more DPS, less tank. Zealots can be the tank and Adepts can be the DPS. What went wrong with bounce upgrade again?
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On June 18 2015 07:16 Spect8rCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 06:24 [F_]aths wrote:On June 16 2015 18:31 sAsImre wrote:On June 16 2015 17:21 [F_]aths wrote:On June 16 2015 13:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 15 2015 20:10 [F_]aths wrote:
When an amateur suggests how to do something in which I have professional experience, it is in most cases wrong on so many levels. Even though it appears to be reasonable to other amateurs. They just don't know all the implications. That does not mean I consider myself brilliant or a mastermind. There is still a very, very large gap in the level of understanding an issue. On June 16 2015 12:43 bo1b wrote:
and the simple fact is that for most of that time the community has not known what the kark is going on. And I am the definition of an amateur here, I don't get paid to do this. Let's see how my crazy ideas posted back in the HOTS Beta panned out... if I knew what the kark I was doing... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viableOctober 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "Furthermore, when dropped from Medivacs Hellbats easily wipe out a mineral line in a few shots with it's wide arc of fire. Think pre-nerf Blue Flame Hellions!" July 11, 2013 - Patch 2.0.9: Hellbat attack damage decreased from 18 + 12 vs. light to 18. October 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "The solution is reduce the cooldown of the Siege Tank from 3.00 to 2.25-2.50" November 11th, 2013 - Patch 2.0.12: Siege Mode attack period decreased from 3.0 to 2.8. October 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "First, remove hardened shields" March 31 2015 - Patch 2.5.0 - Removed Hardened Shield Ability. Now I am not anything special, large parts of the community wanted these changes for long before I suggested them. It's just really sad it took Blizzard so long to catch on, and sad they had to try all their terrible ideas first. Blizzard has shown a clear inability to grasp and predict what will happen when they make changes. The Hellbat is by far my favorite example. They knew what happened with BFH, but they ignorantly repeated that, despite myself and many other amateurs in the community who saw that coming 10 miles away warning them. I specifically warned them 9 months before the patch came out nerfing the Hellbat that it would be BFH all over again. Yes. And many other guys said other things. In the end, there is always someone who told so before. You proposed a lot which was not implemented, like bringing back the medic. You overlook that the large bulk of the game actually works. Blizzard's team therefore must have an ability to grasp and predict. There are some things like the Thor, corruptor, or force field, which I think can be considered a failed design. The Thor was a request of the art team. The corruptor had different roles in the alpha and was not cut later when all was left was a rather boring air superiority unit. The force field sounds interesting on paper but creates new problems. I still consider SC2 a real achievement. There is room to improve on of course. I have no doubt that you know how to improve the game for your needs. The dev team has to consider the entire user base however. blord/infestor rax before the depot inferno pools daedalus swarm host mid game unit 4hellbat drops. mine nerf will promote tank play vZ (my favorite one, show DKim is 100% clueless about his game) 14 range msc vision All these things were blizzard decisions. All these things were stuff everyone with a decent understanding of the game would identify as bullshit. And it took months to correct it everytime. Inferno pool will be played in the WCS final. And it's a shame. Please weigh those temporary miss steps versus the things the SC2 team did right. The weights of wrongs typically outweigh the weights of the "not wrongs". It's not hard to see why that is, it's not hard to understand the negative implications of errors compared to the non-negative implications of non-errors, considering progamers, corporate interests, etc. Alleviating problems post-fact doesn't magically bring back that which was lost. Even if I were to use the term "positive" instead of "non-negative", the effect is still evident. In arbitrary math terms, a decrease of X% can easily undermine a number of increases of X%.
The SC2 dev team did not anything right, but I think they did enough right to earn some trust that when they try things which look wrong, that they have good reasons. It is too easy to point on some miss steps and act as if that proves something significant.
How to be innovative if your goal is to avoid any decision which could upset your userbase?
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I am very glad that Zerg gets a possible way to drop. I also like the spore clawer change to bring Muta's back in ZvZ.
What i dont like is that they still try to balance the Ravager and from my tests it results that its impossible to do it, i will post my data on a new thread soon.
Medivac change would be great if its remplaces the boost, but if this is just another buff then i feel its OP, mainly cuz protoss would never be able to defend WM drops that unload that fast.
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your Country52797 Posts
On June 18 2015 20:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I am very glad that Zerg gets a possible way to drop. I also like the spre clawer change to bring Muta's back in ZvZ.
What i dont like is that they still try to balance the Ravager and from my tests it results that its impossible to do it, i will post my data on a new thread soon.
Medivac change would be great if its remplaces the boost but if this is just another buff then i feel its OP, mainly cuz protoss would never be able to defend WM drops that unload that fast.
Looking forward to that data. I'm sort of in agreement that we really don't need another reason for Terrans to go mine drops. They are already pretty common from what I've seen.
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On June 18 2015 18:27 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 07:16 Spect8rCraft wrote:On June 18 2015 06:24 [F_]aths wrote:On June 16 2015 18:31 sAsImre wrote:On June 16 2015 17:21 [F_]aths wrote:On June 16 2015 13:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 15 2015 20:10 [F_]aths wrote:
When an amateur suggests how to do something in which I have professional experience, it is in most cases wrong on so many levels. Even though it appears to be reasonable to other amateurs. They just don't know all the implications. That does not mean I consider myself brilliant or a mastermind. There is still a very, very large gap in the level of understanding an issue. On June 16 2015 12:43 bo1b wrote:
and the simple fact is that for most of that time the community has not known what the kark is going on. And I am the definition of an amateur here, I don't get paid to do this. Let's see how my crazy ideas posted back in the HOTS Beta panned out... if I knew what the kark I was doing... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viableOctober 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "Furthermore, when dropped from Medivacs Hellbats easily wipe out a mineral line in a few shots with it's wide arc of fire. Think pre-nerf Blue Flame Hellions!" July 11, 2013 - Patch 2.0.9: Hellbat attack damage decreased from 18 + 12 vs. light to 18. October 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "The solution is reduce the cooldown of the Siege Tank from 3.00 to 2.25-2.50" November 11th, 2013 - Patch 2.0.12: Siege Mode attack period decreased from 3.0 to 2.8. October 27 2012 - BronzeKnee: "First, remove hardened shields" March 31 2015 - Patch 2.5.0 - Removed Hardened Shield Ability. Now I am not anything special, large parts of the community wanted these changes for long before I suggested them. It's just really sad it took Blizzard so long to catch on, and sad they had to try all their terrible ideas first. Blizzard has shown a clear inability to grasp and predict what will happen when they make changes. The Hellbat is by far my favorite example. They knew what happened with BFH, but they ignorantly repeated that, despite myself and many other amateurs in the community who saw that coming 10 miles away warning them. I specifically warned them 9 months before the patch came out nerfing the Hellbat that it would be BFH all over again. Yes. And many other guys said other things. In the end, there is always someone who told so before. You proposed a lot which was not implemented, like bringing back the medic. You overlook that the large bulk of the game actually works. Blizzard's team therefore must have an ability to grasp and predict. There are some things like the Thor, corruptor, or force field, which I think can be considered a failed design. The Thor was a request of the art team. The corruptor had different roles in the alpha and was not cut later when all was left was a rather boring air superiority unit. The force field sounds interesting on paper but creates new problems. I still consider SC2 a real achievement. There is room to improve on of course. I have no doubt that you know how to improve the game for your needs. The dev team has to consider the entire user base however. blord/infestor rax before the depot inferno pools daedalus swarm host mid game unit 4hellbat drops. mine nerf will promote tank play vZ (my favorite one, show DKim is 100% clueless about his game) 14 range msc vision All these things were blizzard decisions. All these things were stuff everyone with a decent understanding of the game would identify as bullshit. And it took months to correct it everytime. Inferno pool will be played in the WCS final. And it's a shame. Please weigh those temporary miss steps versus the things the SC2 team did right. The weights of wrongs typically outweigh the weights of the "not wrongs". It's not hard to see why that is, it's not hard to understand the negative implications of errors compared to the non-negative implications of non-errors, considering progamers, corporate interests, etc. Alleviating problems post-fact doesn't magically bring back that which was lost. Even if I were to use the term "positive" instead of "non-negative", the effect is still evident. In arbitrary math terms, a decrease of X% can easily undermine a number of increases of X%. The SC2 dev team did not anything right, but I think they did enough right to earn some trust that when they try things which look wrong, that they have good reasons. It is too easy to point on some miss steps and act as if that proves something significant. How to be innovative if your goal is to avoid any decision which could upset your userbase?
The risks they take become our (well, mostly the progamer's) burden. Innovation does not provide one with impunity from criticism when the results don't fly. You don't even need to look at the actual terminology to see that; just look at the progamer dubbed Innovation. Say what you want about his mechanical micro and his infamous hellbat drops, but if at the end of the day he drops 3-4, he's lost, simple as that. Good efforts go to waste if the results are subpar.
There's also the glaring difference between trying new things and then actually implementing them to the beneficence or chagrin of players, whether they earn a living off of it or are just messing around.
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On June 19 2015 00:15 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 20:16 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I am very glad that Zerg gets a possible way to drop. I also like the spre clawer change to bring Muta's back in ZvZ.
What i dont like is that they still try to balance the Ravager and from my tests it results that its impossible to do it, i will post my data on a new thread soon.
Medivac change would be great if its remplaces the boost but if this is just another buff then i feel its OP, mainly cuz protoss would never be able to defend WM drops that unload that fast.
Looking forward to that data. I'm sort of in agreement that we really don't need another reason for Terrans to go mine drops. They are already pretty common from what I've seen.
Yes, pretty much Terran has all the tools right now, they just need some tweaks and a double ceck to see if anything is not broken in meta.
I got the Data for the Ravager, i just need to wait 3 days before i can make a topic.
Basically because Ravager is a morph of the Roach its a huge problem.
- the current cost of the Ravager is so high that is better of to get 2-3 roaches or simple 1 muta, its cost efficient and composition wise its just better to have more roach then just 1 ravager
( if the cost is lowered then mass ravager will happen and the ability will be spammed to much, if the ability also gets nerfed, the unit becomes pointless in dealing with FF or being a skill shot that has alot of possible ways to use )
- If they revert the nerf for the Ravager it becomes OP again, making all ins impossible to hold for Protoss at least.
- If the Ravager gets just 6 range its still not better then 2-3 roaches or 1 muta
( its hard to make a unit cost efficient, balanced and also keep it not massable )
Its a never ending cycle of either the unit being to powerful or just not worth getting it.
In my point of view i think Ravager should be removed, the ability transfered to the roach but only as upgrade that costs, takes time to research and if its to much, it could require Lair or it could make you choose between Roaches that can shoot Corrosive Bile or Roaches that can Burrow Move.
PS. I would be more focused on Zerg AA since it lacks alot until we get Parasitic Bomb, Scourge would be a good way to fix this AA problem.
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EPT
