EPT
The 8 Armor Ultralisk - Page 3
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On April 26 2015 22:31 Big J wrote: I'm actually of the reverse opinion. The marauder change was pretty good. For units that are: armored with 0base armor, nothing changes unarmored with 0base armor, the marauder is a tiny bit buffed armored with 1base armor, the marauder is a tiny bit nerfed unarmored with 1base armor, the marauder is a tiny bit worse when unupgraded and a tiny bit better when upgraded This is what I was thinking as well. Would rather keep the marauder change than the ultralisk change. The marauder change is pretty subtle. It mainly prevents marauders from increasing in dps against armored targets assuming equal upgrades. It's the ultralisk change that is overdone. It's just overkill against marines and the armor becomes a harder counter to units like hydralisks and zerglings as well. | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On April 26 2015 22:47 DeadByDawn wrote: Equip ghost with a tranquilizer dart - it works on Elephants. Then you tranquilize the Ultras, they block all the Z units and your siege tanks demolish everything whilst they are asleep. Could be a little OP though Or better just neural them. :D | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2015 07:47 Jarree wrote: Bring back snipe that ignores armor. David do some. that has never been out of the game | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On April 27 2015 07:47 Jarree wrote: Bring back snipe that ignores armor. David do some. It already ignores armor. 1 full energy ghost can snipe nearly half the hp of an ultralisk, even fully upgraded. Add to that tanks, cyclones, banshees, seeker missiles or yamato, and I'm not sure terrans should be the ones to complain the most about a lack of options against 8 armor ultralisks. By the time a zerg gets there, the terran should have quite a few. | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
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parkufarku
882 Posts
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baabaa101
12 Posts
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babobbyj
636 Posts
On April 26 2015 05:21 blade55555 wrote: I think zvz is the least of the concern. If it gets that far that's pretty crazy as roach/ravager is so strong. Pft.. roach/ravager got nothing on my masses of crazy cracklings! (noob lvl tho) :D | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
In comparison with Heart of the Swarm (and including the marauder change), this reduces marine damage from 2 to 0.5 which is a 75% nerf, and it reduces marauder damage from 17 to 10 which is a 41% nerf. Of course the marauder nerf is more significant since they constitute a higher portion of damage output. Using a sample unit composition of 3:1 for marines:marauders, the damage output goes down by 47%, so nearly 50%. It's funny that I incorrectly remembered the ultralisk change, thinking it was only improved by a single armor point, but I already considered that to be worrisome in conjunction with the marauder attack rearrangement. I really doubt this change will survive to the release version. These values seem too extreme and it will force Blizzard to create other counters to the ultralisk, perhaps ones that have more binary interactions like the current cyclone or the old snipe. The thor is another candidate for a unit that could be given anti-ultralisk capability. Maybe if snipe not only ignored armor but also reduced armor for about two seconds? That way you could use ghosts with your bio composition, but it would require some timing sense and would add complication to the (boring?) kiting micro. I don't know if that's fun though. There is precedent for armor reduction in the devourer's acid spores ability from Brood War and faerie fire from Warcraft 3. And the idea of highlighting focus firing and pullback micro, which is more common in smaller scale fights but loses its purpose in larger scale fights, is also noticeable in the design of the immortal shield. | ||
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Isualin
Germany1903 Posts
On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote: Maybe if snipe not only ignored armor but also reduced armor for about two seconds? That way you could use ghosts with your bio composition, but it would require some timing sense and would add complication to the (boring?) kiting micro. I don't know if that's fun though. This is a good idea imo. Kinda like holo targeting from xcom. That way terran players can get few ghosts and snipe each big enemy once for max efficiency | ||
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hZCube
87 Posts
Unless, the minus armor only affects ultras - but that would be wierd and counterintuitive, and make the ghost a specific unit counter. Just doesn't seem intuitive is all. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
Both units need some love but not in that way imo. Revert ultra armor to 6 and buff elsewhere. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 27 2015 22:41 hZCube wrote: And then all units get rebalanced around minus armor from a ghost snipe, and any terran player playing without ghosts is just going to practically default lose to overbalanced units? Unless, the minus armor only affects ultras - but that would be wierd and counterintuitive, and make the ghost a specific unit counter. Just doesn't seem intuitive is all. Two things: first of all the armor debuff would be attached to snipe and would mainly be meaningful when used on high health biological units, meaning ultralisks, brood lords, swarm hosts and lurkers; second of all, because of the way that armor is calculated, any armor debuff is especially helpful vs units with high armor to begin with and furthermore it's best used in conjunction with marines. Both serve to limit the number of strongly affected interactions and giving a two armor debuff to ghost snipe mainly affects the marine vs ultralisk interaction. This change to snipe probably won't force Blizzard to add higher armor to every zerg unit in the game. I'm not saying it's a good idea and that Blizzard should implement it, but your concerns seem a bit over the top. On April 27 2015 22:47 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: eh, I hate the Ghost idea in terms of countering ultras. It's building on a boring idea with another boring idea. Both units need some love but not in that way imo. Revert ultra armor to 6 and buff elsewhere. Yeah, I mainly devised it as a way to keep bio playable vs ultralisks with the new 5+3 armor, so it serves as a bandaid to fix the 8 armor ultralisk, but obviously it would be a pointless idea with 3+3 armor ultralisks. | ||
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Isualin
Germany1903 Posts
On April 27 2015 22:41 hZCube wrote: And then all units get rebalanced around minus armor from a ghost snipe, and any terran player playing without ghosts is just going to practically default lose to overbalanced units? Unless, the minus armor only affects ultras - but that would be wierd and counterintuitive, and make the ghost a specific unit counter. Just doesn't seem intuitive is all. I don't think sniping roaches, ling/blings or hydras would be time efficient for the terran player in later stages of the game. But maybe we might see timing attacks with ghosts. This would be a reason to use ghosts against a zerg all the time(They have emp to use them against P already) | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote: Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong  But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 26 2015 20:08 404AlphaSquad wrote: They are determined to try everything, but making it smaller. Bad things happen when you create units of excessive size. Units become too large and mess with the pathfinding, they start to overkill severely and will have unreliable unit interactions as a consequence, they will unload too quickly which messes up certain things like the nydus canal and dropships; they force abilities like abduct and neural to have high energy costs; they make larva a pointless late-game resource; they're too volatile for their cost and become hit-or-miss; they take too long to build when you're teching, they make certain area of effect attacks become unreliable. Units which have become more expensive since BW: brood lords > guardians, thors & vikings > goliaths, valkyries, ultralisks, colossi > reavers, motherships > arbiters, void rays & tempests > scouts, lurkers, hydralisks, vipers, infestors > queens, defilers. It's seemingly never the other way around, and it's not like it's just a global cost increase which is off-set by a mining increase. In most cases they cost more supply as well, and reference units like the workers and T1 units are unchanged. Yes, there is more diversity in unit costs, but I don't know if it works out. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On April 28 2015 00:18 Grumbels wrote: Bad things happen when you create units of excessive size. Units become too large and mess with the pathfinding, they start to overkill severely and will have unreliable unit interactions as a consequence, they will unload too quickly which messes up certain things like the nydus canal and dropships; they force abilities like abduct and neural to have high energy costs; they make larva a pointless late-game resource; they're too volatile for their cost and become hit-or-miss; they take too long to build when you're teching, they make certain area of effect attacks become unreliable. Units which have become more expensive since BW: brood lords > guardians, thors > goliaths, ultralisks, colossi > reavers, motherships > arbiters, void rays & tempests > scouts, lurkers, hydralisks, vipers, infestors > queens, defilers. It's seemingly never the other way around, and it's not like it's just a global cost increase which is off-set by a mining increase. In most cases they cost more supply as well, and reference units like the workers and T1 units are unchanged. Yes, there is more diversity in unit costs, but I don't know if it works out. You didn't mention the worst effects of this - it encourages deathballs and turtling. When your units are expensive and take a long time to build, you can't risk losing them. If you don't have any colossus left over after the clash of the deathballs, you're probably going to lose. On top of that AOE and other anti-deathball mechanics were weakened or removed in SC2. Dark swarm, psi storm, arbiter stasis, reaver scarabs, plague, irradiate, all of those things could save us from the deathball meta but they are either gone entirely or shadows of their former selves in SC2. The changes are so methodical it's like this is what Blizzard wants. | ||
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