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On May 02 2015 10:24 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 23:41 Meff wrote:
Let's keep it grounded, please.
It's materially impossible for 3/3 ultras to be out any earlier than 320 seconds after Hive has started, and even 2/2 ultras with chitinous take 275 seconds to be on the field. Four minutes and a half are not a sudden switch, T should be able to do something to avoid being caught with its pants down.
At most, I could see problems with a very late-game switch... but I'm not too sure of it, because even then we have 55 seconds of build time. In an even game, Z should only manage to freeze so much supply/resources in army that will not be able for a long while, and which spawns in isolation.
Does anybody have VoDs of T suffering from that sort of switch? Otherwise, we risk losing ourselves in theorycraft. Even if it takes a considerable amount of time for Zerg to get to 3/3 Ultralisk its still a massive problem that once they are out they are practically invincible. That is not good design at all, the races should be balanced to both be able to hit timings pre best units/army become available and have the tools to still combat said units/army once they are fielded. People ignorantly shouted at Terrans and Protoss that it was their job to kill Zergs before they got their Brood Lord/Infestor armies. Guess how that turned out?
Oh, I was just stating that 3/3 ultras are not a sudden tech switch and, therefore, if a decent antagonizing composition exists, then T and P should have plenty of time to tech toward it.
The question of whether such a composition exists is entirely different.
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On May 02 2015 18:01 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 10:24 Destructicon wrote:On April 28 2015 23:41 Meff wrote:
Let's keep it grounded, please.
It's materially impossible for 3/3 ultras to be out any earlier than 320 seconds after Hive has started, and even 2/2 ultras with chitinous take 275 seconds to be on the field. Four minutes and a half are not a sudden switch, T should be able to do something to avoid being caught with its pants down.
At most, I could see problems with a very late-game switch... but I'm not too sure of it, because even then we have 55 seconds of build time. In an even game, Z should only manage to freeze so much supply/resources in army that will not be able for a long while, and which spawns in isolation.
Does anybody have VoDs of T suffering from that sort of switch? Otherwise, we risk losing ourselves in theorycraft. Even if it takes a considerable amount of time for Zerg to get to 3/3 Ultralisk its still a massive problem that once they are out they are practically invincible. That is not good design at all, the races should be balanced to both be able to hit timings pre best units/army become available and have the tools to still combat said units/army once they are fielded. People ignorantly shouted at Terrans and Protoss that it was their job to kill Zergs before they got their Brood Lord/Infestor armies. Guess how that turned out? Oh, I was just stating that 3/3 ultras are not a sudden tech switch and, therefore, if a decent antagonizing composition exists, then T and P should have plenty of time to tech toward it. The question of whether such a composition exists is entirely different.
I think that's the first question that needs to be addressed. (Let's see if we get any clues from a future LotV intro video as landing vikings has NOT worked.) :D
The "time" factor is still an issue though since it requires that hive be scouted relatively quickly AND that it's Ultra instead of BL (which are making a comeback in HotS post-SH nerf).
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On May 02 2015 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 12:40 Maniak_ wrote:
Where I see a bigger design issue is when the lowest-tier army *has* to be able to win against another race's highest-tier army, only having to research the only two weapon/armor upgrades needed for those units.
That may be necessary right now for terran bio, but that's a problem with the design of terran bio which should be fixed on this side of the fence.
You *should not* be able to easily destroy the highest-tier army of a race with the lowest-tier army of another. If you have to attempt it, you should have to play out of your mind to compensate. To earn it. With sweat and blood.
The player who manages to squeeze out enough tech to get to his highest-tier *should* have an advantage against a player who simply sits on the same units all game long.
The issue is when a player *has* to sit on the same units all game long. And that's a very different issue, that doesn't have much to do with zerg having a unit that can, given enough time, resources and space, wreck terran bio if the terran stays on marines/marauders.
Colossus, disruptors, storms, terran mech can all destroy terran bio. Are 8 armor ultralisks even more effective? Should bio be buffed to be able to kill absolutely everything without ever changing the army composition? Or should terrans be able (and willing, that could help) to transition from any number of occurences of the letter M to something else? And every Terran in the world said "give us useful tier2/3 bio units to tech to." And Blizzard looked down and whispered "no."
To be fair, Terrans Bio tier 2/3 is in a way the medivac. And I fully disagree with the first post, saying a tier 3 army should destroy a tier 1 army.
The point of higher tiers, upgrades and the likes - is that while you make an original investment (the tech) 100 Minerals of your army, will destroy 100 minerals worth of his army. - its about getting more cost effective.
In the long run, Ultralisks will definitely outvalue Bio, but just because you somehow managed to turtle to 200 supply colossus - shouldnt mean you win the game.
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This is bio with stimpack, concussive shells, combat shields and attack and armor upgrades upgrades researched, with medivac and ghost support. It's not a zero-tech army. The point of tech is to expand your options and to serve as investments, in that sense it would clearly be bad if zerg was forced to get increasingly higher tech just to fight increasing numbers of marines, because it means that terran is shallowly designed and lacks the need to transition. But that's not strongly the case, maybe very lightly. And certainly T3 > T1 is a bad general rule and should be denied.
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The 8 armor Ultralisk is absolutely bonkers ridiculous unkillable broken.
Of course I'm Protoss so half the units in the game feel this way :D
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On April 28 2015 03:02 klup wrote:
I won't worry that much about ultras. It's the new design philosophy of blizzard since Hots. Overbuff some stuffs (like reaper) then find the right balance. The idea is to force the use of the unit to see a lot of play and therefore be able to proper balance it with the new elements introduced in the extension.
They did an okay job for reaper so i'm confident for ultra with the same process.
Kind of how I'm viewing the whole thing, because as a Zerg player I'll admit that the new Ultralisk is pretty damn strong atm.
But that's not bad, it's easier to tone something down and make it nice and balanced then it is to buff it up, I'm just wondering why Ultralisks were almost "double buffed" in a way. If they were going to beef the armor up I'm not so sure the Marauder needed the double shot change and kind of vice versa, Blizzard could have just done one at a time and I'm sure it would boost Ultralisk viability.
Plus we need to wait and see if the new Terran unit will help in any way or if perhaps Ghosts can get some type of rework to help bio late game? Been years since I've seen Ghosts in TvZ and with Blizzard's new design and balance approach high micro spell casters should be more rewarded, I would loveto see less Ravens and more Ghosts.
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On May 05 2015 01:36 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 03:02 klup wrote:
I won't worry that much about ultras. It's the new design philosophy of blizzard since Hots. Overbuff some stuffs (like reaper) then find the right balance. The idea is to force the use of the unit to see a lot of play and therefore be able to proper balance it with the new elements introduced in the extension.
They did an okay job for reaper so i'm confident for ultra with the same process. Kind of how I'm viewing the whole thing, because as a Zerg player I'll admit that the new Ultralisk is pretty damn strong atm. But that's not bad, it's easier to tone something down and make it nice and balanced then it is to buff it up, I'm just wondering why Ultralisks were almost "double buffed" in a way. If they were going to beef the armor up I'm not so sure the Marauder needed the double shot change and kind of vice versa, Blizzard could have just done one at a time and I'm sure it would boost Ultralisk viability. Plus we need to wait and see if the new Terran unit will help in any way or if perhaps Ghosts can get some type of rework to help bio late game? Been years since I've seen Ghosts in TvZ and with Blizzard's new design and balance approach high micro spell casters should be more rewarded, I would loveto see less Ravens and more Ghosts.
I'm guessing the Marauder nerf was so it won't wreck protoss as much (since most of their units are armored), given that they are switching the focus of toss more towards basic gateway units. But yeah, if they nerfed the marauder they really didn't need to also buff the ultra.
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The thing is the 8 armor is really strong vs some high rate fire like Terran bio, but not that much vs some heavy dmg units like mech/protoss deathball/lurker.
Another good solution will be just to add some HP with the research of citinious instead of some armor (or back to the old value +2 + HP).
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On May 05 2015 03:30 Tyrhanius wrote:
The thing is the 8 armor is really strong vs some high rate fire like Terran bio, but not that much vs some heavy dmg units like mech/protoss deathball/lurker.
Another good solution will be just to add some HP with the research of citinious instead of some armor (or back to the old value +2 + HP).
I like this, still adds to their tank potential in a more killable way haha
Maybe reduce the size of the Ultralisk so it won't derp behind a few units with the health buff? Kinda let's it close in to do more damage without breaking it?
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With all the lotv changes, it seems like Blizzard just wants to kill Bio dead.
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On May 05 2015 04:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
With all the lotv changes, it seems like Blizzard just wants to kill Bio dead.
Maybe vs. Zerg.
Vs. Protoss 4M is stronger than ever.
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They should allow medivacs to lift enemy units to lift ultras and go fly over spore crawlers :o
It's no more crazy than sieged tank lifting and flying locusts !
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On May 05 2015 03:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 03:30 Tyrhanius wrote:
The thing is the 8 armor is really strong vs some high rate fire like Terran bio, but not that much vs some heavy dmg units like mech/protoss deathball/lurker.
Another good solution will be just to add some HP with the research of citinious instead of some armor (or back to the old value +2 + HP). I like this, still adds to their tank potential in a more killable way haha Maybe reduce the size of the Ultralisk so it won't derp behind a few units with the health buff? Kinda let's it close in to do more damage without breaking it?
I think the Ultra should just not collide with small units (Zerglings, Broodlings, Marines, Zealots, workers, etc.), like what Colossi do (I think). Imagine the Ultralisk just stepping over small units and those small units finding a way under the Ultra. Then give it a passive trample attack that deals damage over time to small enemy units under it.
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On May 05 2015 04:56 Roadog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 03:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 05 2015 03:30 Tyrhanius wrote:
The thing is the 8 armor is really strong vs some high rate fire like Terran bio, but not that much vs some heavy dmg units like mech/protoss deathball/lurker.
Another good solution will be just to add some HP with the research of citinious instead of some armor (or back to the old value +2 + HP). I like this, still adds to their tank potential in a more killable way haha Maybe reduce the size of the Ultralisk so it won't derp behind a few units with the health buff? Kinda let's it close in to do more damage without breaking it? I think the Ultra should just not collide with small units (Zerglings, Broodlings, Marines, Zealots, workers, etc.), like what Colossi do (I think). Imagine the Ultralisk just stepping over small units and those small units finding a way under the Ultra. Then give it a passive trample attack that deals damage over time to small enemy units under it.
Trust me, being able to push units away (Push priority) is already a big update and fairly more simple to balance than stepping over units. It would be fun for ultras to have a manual mode to push units away like in the HotS trailer.
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On May 04 2015 23:07 weikor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 16:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 02 2015 12:40 Maniak_ wrote:
Where I see a bigger design issue is when the lowest-tier army *has* to be able to win against another race's highest-tier army, only having to research the only two weapon/armor upgrades needed for those units.
That may be necessary right now for terran bio, but that's a problem with the design of terran bio which should be fixed on this side of the fence.
You *should not* be able to easily destroy the highest-tier army of a race with the lowest-tier army of another. If you have to attempt it, you should have to play out of your mind to compensate. To earn it. With sweat and blood.
The player who manages to squeeze out enough tech to get to his highest-tier *should* have an advantage against a player who simply sits on the same units all game long.
The issue is when a player *has* to sit on the same units all game long. And that's a very different issue, that doesn't have much to do with zerg having a unit that can, given enough time, resources and space, wreck terran bio if the terran stays on marines/marauders.
Colossus, disruptors, storms, terran mech can all destroy terran bio. Are 8 armor ultralisks even more effective? Should bio be buffed to be able to kill absolutely everything without ever changing the army composition? Or should terrans be able (and willing, that could help) to transition from any number of occurences of the letter M to something else? And every Terran in the world said "give us useful tier2/3 bio units to tech to." And Blizzard looked down and whispered "no." To be fair, Terrans Bio tier 2/3 is in a way the medivac.
It absolutely is, and so is the Widow Mine. They're not bio units, but they complement bio play enough to fit into the bio playstyle. But there's a huge discrepancy between the way Ts tech and the way other races tech, and that's not good. Terrans who make the decision to go bio are completely predictable. They have no lategame options. And they have no new tricks to figure out, because they've been relying on largely the same inflexible composition for 4 years.
Why Blizzard would choose to shut down bio, the most exciting playstyle in the game, instead of trying to revitalize it with some new unit interactions is beyond me.
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On April 27 2015 12:53 baabaa101 wrote:
and thank you for nerfing the one unit unit zerg needs to slow down terran mech and protoss air, that was so awesome a decision it ranks in the same class as inventing the cyclone, warhound and terran rax before supply depot.
They "invented" that a Terran can build a barracks before a supply depot in 1998 with StarCraft 1, and it works fine in that game. So that in itself is not a problem.
When it turned out to be bad for StarCraft 2, they changed it.
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On May 05 2015 08:49 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 12:53 baabaa101 wrote:
and thank you for nerfing the one unit unit zerg needs to slow down terran mech and protoss air, that was so awesome a decision it ranks in the same class as inventing the cyclone, warhound and terran rax before supply depot. They "invented" that a Terran can build a barracks before a supply depot in 1998 with StarCraft 1, and it works fine in that game. So that in itself is not a problem. When it turned out to be bad for StarCraft 2, they changed it.
I think they should experiment with reverting the change tbh. When the maps were jungle bason, steps of war and xelnaga ofc its a bad idea. I wouldn't be opposed to them experimenting with reverting the stim nerf and queen movement speed on maps that aren't archaic as well.
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On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong  But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare.
This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death.
You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game.
The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here.
If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc.
In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots.
On May 05 2015 03:17 Destructicon wrote:
I'm guessing the Marauder nerf was so it won't wreck protoss as much (since most of their units are armored), given that they are switching the focus of toss more towards basic gateway units. But yeah, if they nerfed the marauder they really didn't need to also buff the ultra.
Seriously when I read stuff like this, then I see that you neither wanna see basic changes that could make the game more appealing to alot of "lost" players again and nor you overview the whole thing.
Why would you think that blizzard wanted to change marauder only for PvT and accidently missed the fact that it changes other matchups too? Why would you believe that marauders even matter or should matter when dealing with ultralisks?
The answer is easy to me: You wanna keep your 10 rax spamming pure bio all game long in every matchup metagame at all costs. You don't see that this creates severe disadvantages for both TvP and TvZ metagames and at best was appealing in TvT as mech is an equal alternative there (hence TvT was rightfully considered best matchup in SC2 yet (lol)).
Funny enough that you have the writers symbol next to your name when one must have already acknowledged in the past that major parts of the tl stuff and ppl close to them are quite favouring the terran race and very narrow minded about that. And at the same time for the sake of it you guys lose sight with the big goal of sc2 to become a better and more appealing game to everyone.
Not appealing: Pure mechanics spam from 10 rax with close to zero strategy involved in all matchups (see SC2's decline, see glorious SCV pull gameplay (you seriously wonder why SC2 has lost viewers and players?), see every game being bio vs muta/bling).
Appealing: Possible switches and transitions (instead of scv pull), favouring strategy a bit more than pure mechanics spam (See e.g. current successful games that allow more strategy than SC2, see Broodwar which didn't allow terran to do everything with bio in every matchup and which was quite a well designed and balanced game).
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On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots.
Bio is the most skill intensive composition in the game. If 80% of Protoss and Zerg was also bio, SC2 would be a much better competitive sport.
It would have no depth, though, because Blizzard refuses to make Reapers and Ghosts relevant, or add new units. 
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On May 05 2015 13:19 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Bio is the most skill intensive composition in the game. If 80% of Protoss and Zerg was also bio, SC2 would be a much better competitive sport. It would have no depth, though, because Blizzard refuses to make Reapers and Ghosts relevant, or add new units.
Pretty simple solution, buff roaches, buff stalkers and everyone will have their "bio". Just that noone wants that, because it makes for stupid mexican standoff combating and a-moving if everyone is just spamming low tier singlefire bullshit into each other.
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