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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
Just like in BW you would transition to mines, or tank, or both, maybe you'll have to invest into higher tier instead of just brainlessly spawning MMM all game. Don't get me wrong you can still use those, but you'll need something extra to deal with those. Nevertheless, I haven't played yet so I can't tell if the Ultra's OP or not, but just hearing that they are reducing the Marauder's vs armored bonus damage makes me happy. Such a dumb game broken design in the first place. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote: Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong  But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote: Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. If you need it, you can find solace in the “Mammoth in the Room” section of Razzia des Blizzsters. | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
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klup
France612 Posts
They did an okay job for reaper so i'm confident for ultra with the same process. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote: Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Which is precisely why I wrote that *if* this is the main issue, then *this* is what should be improved. Not nerfing everything else so that terrans can win with their one single bio composition. On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote: Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. Factories and armory are already there for thors against mutas, starports are already there for medivacs, it's not like there's nothing to build tanks, thors or cyclones. And remind me just how many upgrades are needed for zerg to keep up with the two bio upgrades? Unless mech upgrades are split again, terrans have both the lowest amount of attack/armor upgrades, and also the cheapest. If zerg can tech to hive, research 3/3 upgrades (not counting air and range), research chitinous plating and build lots of ultras, while defending continuous drops and bio pushes, maybe the terran can find a way to add one or two factories? It's not like zerg can just snap his fingers and instantly get a pack of fully upgraded ultras while the terran's entire resources and apm are dedicated to barely surviving with marines and marauders. Or we're really not watching the same games. On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote: I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. You're talking about hots. Have you tried it with lotv? Was there an obvious issue? And if it's very hard for terran to engage on the zerg portion of the map covered in creep, is it easy for zerg to engage the terran defenses on his side of the map? If yes, and I'm only caring about lotv games here, then maybe there's a problem. And maybe it could be addressed by helping terrans to transition instead of nerfing something else. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
Interesting to see that in the latest LotV patch notes they were talking about a building add on that allows the building to change type, from Rax to Factory for instance. Blizz knows that Terran cannot tech switch with a realistic chance of winning as they designed it this way - but now maybe they understand it was a dumb decision. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 28 2015 04:17 DeadByDawn wrote: Isn't the problem transitioning not that you don't have factories and starports but that you do not have enough of them? A zerg with a large bank and larva can insta switch composition. Maybe you lack upgrades but you are still in a better position than the Terran trying to spot this and then building 8 factories to counter in time. Interesting to see that in the latest LotV patch notes they were talking about a building add on that allows the building to change type, from Rax to Factory for instance. Blizz knows that Terran cannot tech switch with a realistic chance of winning as they designed it this way - but now maybe they understand it was a dumb decision. Clearly terran should get the human macro mechanic from wc3 where you could speed build buildings by adding more workers to the construction.  | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 28 2015 04:17 DeadByDawn wrote: Isn't the problem transitioning not that you don't have factories and starports but that you do not have enough of them? A zerg with a large bank and larva can insta switch composition. Maybe you lack upgrades but you are still in a better position than the Terran trying to spot this and then building 8 factories to counter in time. Interesting to see that in the latest LotV patch notes they were talking about a building add on that allows the building to change type, from Rax to Factory for instance. Blizz knows that Terran cannot tech switch with a realistic chance of winning as they designed it this way - but now maybe they understand it was a dumb decision. Terran not being able to tech switch brutally is normal. The problem comes from SC2 allowing other races to dump excessive amount of resources in wild tech switches. Zerg is naturally prone to this due to the larva mechanic, but the scale should be reduced; Terran/Protoss should favor slower transitions. The fact that things like this or this are not only normal, but necessary desperately needs to disappear. As usual, the environment of hyper-development leads to volatility and bulldozes skill in favor of coinflips and guessing games where everyone loses in the end. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On April 28 2015 04:59 TheDwf wrote: Terran not being able to tech switch brutally is normal. The problem comes from SC2 allowing other races to dump excessive amount of resources in wild tech switches. Zerg is naturally prone to this due to the larva mechanic, but the scale should be reduced; Terran/Protoss should favor slower transitions. The fact that things like this or this are not only normal, but necessary desperately needs to disappear. As usual, the environment of hyper-development leads to volatility and bulldozes skill in favor of coinflips and guessing games where everyone loses in the end. Well, I'd say that is the trademark of the Zerg race. It could also happen in BW, but was quite uncommon to maxout there. I think the problem is that when you pair Larva mechanic (being able to bank 19 larva per hatch LOL) with the economy in SC2, that extreme remax capability appears. I think that limiting the maximum amount of larva banked could help that a bit, or applying some penalty to banked larva. Also, while I think that arguing about remaxes on ZvZ is quite pointless as it is a mirror matchup, another big problematic we have with mutas is that is very problematic to counter them properly since they are squishy, mobile, and have insane HP regen in HotS. Protoss have poor AA on gateways or inexistent in robo, being very dependant on Phoenixes (I'd say that BW archons were stronger vs Mutas) and Terrans rely in mineshots and thors to decimate moving Mutas when playing Mech, something that is really hard to achieve. However turrets do quite well against mutalisks in that lategame scenario.. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Oh, oh, idea: any banked larva exceeding the standard capacity of a hatchery(i.e. 3) will slowly die off at a rate of 1 per X. Could be useful maybe? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 28 2015 05:21 JCoto wrote: Well, I'd say that is the trademark of the Zerg race. It could also happen in BW, but was quite uncommon to maxout there. I think the problem is that when you pair Larva mechanic (being able to bank 19 larva per hatch LOL) with the economy in SC2, that extreme remax capability appears. I think that limiting the maximum amount of larva banked could help that a bit, or applying some penalty to banked larva. Yep, fully agree. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 28 2015 04:17 DeadByDawn wrote: Isn't the problem transitioning not that you don't have factories and starports but that you do not have enough of them? A zerg with a large bank and larva can insta switch composition. Maybe you lack upgrades but you are still in a better position than the Terran trying to spot this and then building 8 factories to counter in time. Interesting to see that in the latest LotV patch notes they were talking about a building add on that allows the building to change type, from Rax to Factory for instance. Blizz knows that Terran cannot tech switch with a realistic chance of winning as they designed it this way - but now maybe they understand it was a dumb decision. Terrans do use their factories and starports, often 3-4 of them with their barracks. The problem is that Terrans are both allowed and forced at the same time to make certain compositions and hit certain timings. It's more a problem of gamepace and unit balance rather than production imbalance. There are few ways for a Terran to abuse an opponent's unit composition through adjustment and prediction, neither can you do that against a Terran that just plays that certain standard style of the TvP or TvZ matchup. That's what makes macro TvT so great strategically, because there you actually do get advantages by reading the game properly and adjusting your compositions and attack/defense timings properly. This is the result of the matchup being very well balanced on a greater scale than just winrates. The opposite end of that would be macro ZvZ in which adjusting your compostion once you have reached roach vs roach is hardly possible. An topnotch aggressive mono-roach player will most likely always beat a player that tries something else or to counter it the defensive player has to maneuver himself into such a disadvantage that it is strategically bad to begin with. That is the core problem with why the - current, aggressive - bio-style can only exist for as long as Marine/Marauder/Medivac works against most things - thus making transitions worthless - or has a good chance of killing the opponent "before he gets there" - thus making the game very unsatisfying and rage-infusing to play. | ||
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WhenRaxFly
45 Posts
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
It's materially impossible for 3/3 ultras to be out any earlier than 320 seconds after Hive has started, and even 2/2 ultras with chitinous take 275 seconds to be on the field. Four minutes and a half are not a sudden switch, T should be able to do something to avoid being caught with its pants down. At most, I could see problems with a very late-game switch... but I'm not too sure of it, because even then we have 55 seconds of build time. In an even game, Z should only manage to freeze so much supply/resources in army that will not be able for a long while, and which spawns in isolation. Does anybody have VoDs of T suffering from that sort of switch? Otherwise, we risk losing ourselves in theorycraft. | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 28 2015 23:41 Meff wrote: Let's keep it grounded, please. It's materially impossible for 3/3 ultras to be out any earlier than 320 seconds after Hive has started, and even 2/2 ultras with chitinous take 275 seconds to be on the field. Four minutes and a half are not a sudden switch, T should be able to do something to avoid being caught with its pants down. At most, I could see problems with a very late-game switch... but I'm not too sure of it, because even then we have 55 seconds of build time. In an even game, Z should only manage to freeze so much supply/resources in army that will not be able for a long while, and which spawns in isolation. Does anybody have VoDs of T suffering from that sort of switch? Otherwise, we risk losing ourselves in theorycraft. Even if it takes a considerable amount of time for Zerg to get to 3/3 Ultralisk its still a massive problem that once they are out they are practically invincible. That is not good design at all, the races should be balanced to both be able to hit timings pre best units/army become available and have the tools to still combat said units/army once they are fielded. People ignorantly shouted at Terrans and Protoss that it was their job to kill Zergs before they got their Brood Lord/Infestor armies. Guess how that turned out? | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On May 02 2015 10:24 Destructicon wrote: Even if it takes a considerable amount of time for Zerg to get to 3/3 Ultralisk its still a massive problem that once they are out they are practically invincible. That is not good design at all, the races should be balanced to both be able to hit timings pre best units/army become available and have the tools to still combat said units/army once they are fielded. People ignorantly shouted at Terrans and Protoss that it was their job to kill Zergs before they got their Brood Lord/Infestor armies. Guess how that turned out? yeah, i've always disagreed with the "kill them before it happens" model of argument for a lot of reasons. even if it is possible, viable, strong etc. to just use a strategy that kills your opponent before they get their MegaComposition, the mere existence of such compositions severely skews incentive in a way that hurts strategy and diversity. if i'm zerg and i have a major winrate incentive to sit back and defend until i can get ultras out, i still have a full breadth of options plus a trump card at the end. i can allin or do any number of strategies and styles, but my opponent has to fixate on killing or critically damaging me before a certain point it's especially bad for common ladder players who are less likely to have the initiative to scout out greedy/defensive strategies and go for a punishing move. swarm host turtle was less popular in korea because pro koreans always had a strong killer insinct and ability to find deadly timings, but if you don't have the perfect macro and game sense to achieve those timings it can be very frustrating to find yourself facing someone who's going for something passive and abusive imo balance means that even if a game carries on passively up to 15, 20, 30 minutes each race should have some kind of viable strategy other than "do damage or you're fucked" (i don't have any firsthand experience with lotv ultras, just speaking to design theory here based mostly on hots) | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On May 02 2015 10:24 Destructicon wrote: Even if it takes a considerable amount of time for Zerg to get to 3/3 Ultralisk its still a massive problem that once they are out they are practically invincible. Which is pretty much the exact same thing as late game terran mech/protoss deathball, at least against zerg. I'm not really disagreeing on the "not good design at all" front, but if the various late game compositions of all races can stand up to each other, isn't that enough of a balance? If you get to your late game composition first, you have a potentially huge advantage, which is logical. This advantage may be *too* huge compared to lower-tier compositions, that should be adjustable with balance changes. However if both players manage to get to the late game and can stand up to each other, or if the player that's behind manages to buy time or even gain an advantage with superior usage of his lower-tier army (dare I say with superior strategy and control), I don't see the issue. Where I see a bigger design issue is when the lowest-tier army *has* to be able to win against another race's highest-tier army, only having to research the only two weapon/armor upgrades needed for those units. That may be necessary right now for terran bio, but that's a problem with the design of terran bio which should be fixed on this side of the fence. You *should not* be able to easily destroy the highest-tier army of a race with the lowest-tier army of another. If you have to attempt it, you should have to play out of your mind to compensate. To earn it. With sweat and blood. The player who manages to squeeze out enough tech to get to his highest-tier *should* have an advantage against a player who simply sits on the same units all game long. The issue is when a player *has* to sit on the same units all game long. And that's a very different issue, that doesn't have much to do with zerg having a unit that can, given enough time, resources and space, wreck terran bio if the terran stays on marines/marauders. Colossus, disruptors, storms, terran mech can all destroy terran bio. Are 8 armor ultralisks even more effective? Should bio be buffed to be able to kill absolutely everything without ever changing the army composition? Or should terrans be able (and willing, that could help) to transition from any number of occurences of the letter M to something else? On May 02 2015 10:24 Destructicon wrote: People ignorantly shouted at Terrans and Protoss that it was their job to kill Zergs before they got their Brood Lord/Infestor armies. Guess how that turned out? And by the magic of copy/paste: Which is pretty much the exact same thing as late game terran mech/protoss deathball, at least against zerg. Again, I'm not disagreeing that there may be an issue, more specifically a design issue, but I do believe that in this particular instance, this issue is with terran bio. Not the ultralisk. Maybe also with MULEs, since such a big mineral boost obviously favors staying with a mineral-based army. Unlimited stackable MULEs throw the mineral-to-gas income ratio out the window. That doesn't help. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On May 02 2015 12:40 Maniak_ wrote: Where I see a bigger design issue is when the lowest-tier army *has* to be able to win against another race's highest-tier army, only having to research the only two weapon/armor upgrades needed for those units. That may be necessary right now for terran bio, but that's a problem with the design of terran bio which should be fixed on this side of the fence. You *should not* be able to easily destroy the highest-tier army of a race with the lowest-tier army of another. If you have to attempt it, you should have to play out of your mind to compensate. To earn it. With sweat and blood. The player who manages to squeeze out enough tech to get to his highest-tier *should* have an advantage against a player who simply sits on the same units all game long. The issue is when a player *has* to sit on the same units all game long. And that's a very different issue, that doesn't have much to do with zerg having a unit that can, given enough time, resources and space, wreck terran bio if the terran stays on marines/marauders. Colossus, disruptors, storms, terran mech can all destroy terran bio. Are 8 armor ultralisks even more effective? Should bio be buffed to be able to kill absolutely everything without ever changing the army composition? Or should terrans be able (and willing, that could help) to transition from any number of occurences of the letter M to something else? And every Terran in the world said "give us useful tier2/3 bio units to tech to." And Blizzard looked down and whispered "no." | ||
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