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On May 05 2015 13:19 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong  But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Bio is the most skill intensive composition in the game. If 80% of Protoss and Zerg was also bio, SC2 would be a much better competitive sport. It would have no depth, though, because Blizzard refuses to make Reapers and Ghosts relevant, or add new units. 
This is the myth that disables you to understand why CS:GO and LoL (just two examples) are bottom line at the same time two better and more successful games than SC2.
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On May 05 2015 13:44 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 13:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Bio is the most skill intensive composition in the game. If 80% of Protoss and Zerg was also bio, SC2 would be a much better competitive sport. It would have no depth, though, because Blizzard refuses to make Reapers and Ghosts relevant, or add new units. This is the myth that disables you to understand why CS:GO and LoL (just two examples) are bottom line at the same time two better and more successful games than SC2.
I didn't say "more popular." I said better.
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On May 05 2015 14:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 13:44 LSN wrote:On May 05 2015 13:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Bio is the most skill intensive composition in the game. If 80% of Protoss and Zerg was also bio, SC2 would be a much better competitive sport. It would have no depth, though, because Blizzard refuses to make Reapers and Ghosts relevant, or add new units. This is the myth that disables you to understand why CS:GO and LoL (just two examples) are bottom line at the same time two better and more successful games than SC2. I didn't say "more popular." I said better.
And I said that you are disabled to understand why they are better and more popular at the same time, what you here and now have proven to be right. :p
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On May 05 2015 14:07 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 14:04 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 13:44 LSN wrote:On May 05 2015 13:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Bio is the most skill intensive composition in the game. If 80% of Protoss and Zerg was also bio, SC2 would be a much better competitive sport. It would have no depth, though, because Blizzard refuses to make Reapers and Ghosts relevant, or add new units. This is the myth that disables you to understand why CS:GO and LoL (just two examples) are bottom line at the same time two better and more successful games than SC2. I didn't say "more popular." I said better. And I said that you are disabled to understand why they are better and more popular at the same time, what you here and now have proven to be right. :p
If you think that LoL is a better competitive event than StarCraft, then we have irreconcilably different opinions on what makes a competitive event good and worthwhile. There's no point arguing.
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On May 05 2015 14:14 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 14:07 LSN wrote:On May 05 2015 14:04 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 13:44 LSN wrote:On May 05 2015 13:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Bio is the most skill intensive composition in the game. If 80% of Protoss and Zerg was also bio, SC2 would be a much better competitive sport. It would have no depth, though, because Blizzard refuses to make Reapers and Ghosts relevant, or add new units. This is the myth that disables you to understand why CS:GO and LoL (just two examples) are bottom line at the same time two better and more successful games than SC2. I didn't say "more popular." I said better. And I said that you are disabled to understand why they are better and more popular at the same time, what you here and now have proven to be right. :p If you think that LoL is a better competitive event than StarCraft, then we have irreconcilably different opinions on what makes a competitive event good and worthwhile. There's no point arguing.
Well the point is that both LoL and CS:GO allow real strategy and it allows the technically lower skilled player/team to overcome the higher one with good strategy. This is something that doesn't or does barely exist in SC2.
(probably I should add that I am aware of the fact that the team charackter of these games plays a big role for their success (see Archon Mode). But this is something SC2 1on1 obviously can't come up with so that we have to focus on what SC2 can do better where e.g. these two games are superior as well)
But the thing is, I really believe and know that you are unable to understand this. I can see this already from the way you argument in a thread like this:
- wrong SC2 elitism
- wrong terran elitism
Anyway, have a nice day!
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On May 05 2015 14:17 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 14:14 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 14:07 LSN wrote:On May 05 2015 14:04 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 13:44 LSN wrote:On May 05 2015 13:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Bio is the most skill intensive composition in the game. If 80% of Protoss and Zerg was also bio, SC2 would be a much better competitive sport. It would have no depth, though, because Blizzard refuses to make Reapers and Ghosts relevant, or add new units. This is the myth that disables you to understand why CS:GO and LoL (just two examples) are bottom line at the same time two better and more successful games than SC2. I didn't say "more popular." I said better. And I said that you are disabled to understand why they are better and more popular at the same time, what you here and now have proven to be right. :p If you think that LoL is a better competitive event than StarCraft, then we have irreconcilably different opinions on what makes a competitive event good and worthwhile. There's no point arguing. Well the point is that both LoL and CS:GO allow real strategy and it allows the technically lower skilled player/team to overcome the higher one with good strategy. This is something that doesn't or does barely exist in SC2.
Yeah, I'd love to see you walk into FIFA HQ and tell the president that soccer is a worse competitive sport than League of Legends, because in soccer my local team with a "good strategy" will lose 1000 out of 1000 games against Manchester United on autopilot. But... but they had a good strategy! Shouldn't that matter?!?!
Good strategy should not be enough for a mechanically inferior player to overcome a mechanically superior player. What it should do is provide a player with an edge over another player just as mechanically skilled, but with a worse strategy.
But thanks for the assumptions and the insults. Have a nice day.
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On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 03:17 Destructicon wrote:
I'm guessing the Marauder nerf was so it won't wreck protoss as much (since most of their units are armored), given that they are switching the focus of toss more towards basic gateway units. But yeah, if they nerfed the marauder they really didn't need to also buff the ultra. Seriously when I read stuff like this, then I see that you neither wanna see basic changes that could make the game more appealing to alot of "lost" players again and nor you overview the whole thing. Why would you think that blizzard wanted to change marauder only for PvT and accidently missed the fact that it changes other matchups too? Why would you believe that marauders even matter or should matter when dealing with ultralisks? The answer is easy to me: You wanna keep your 10 rax spamming pure bio all game long in every matchup metagame at all costs. You don't see that this creates severe disadvantages for both TvP and TvZ metagames and at best was appealing in TvT as mech is an equal alternative there (hence TvT was rightfully considered best matchup in SC2 yet (lol)). Funny enough that you have the writers symbol next to your name when one must have already acknowledged in the past that major parts of the tl stuff and ppl close to them are quite favouring the terran race and very narrow minded about that. And at the same time for the sake of it you guys lose sight with the big goal of sc2 to become a better and more appealing game to everyone. Not appealing: Pure mechanics spam from 10 rax with close to zero strategy involved in all matchups (see SC2's decline, see glorious SCV pull gameplay (you seriously wonder why SC2 has lost viewers and players?), see every game being bio vs muta/bling). Appealing: Possible switches and transitions (instead of scv pull), favouring strategy a bit more than pure mechanics spam (See e.g. current successful games that allow more strategy than SC2, see Broodwar which didn't allow terran to do everything with bio in every matchup and which was quite a well designed and balanced game).
I don't understand why you would use BW as an example when it is far more mechanically demanding than SC2 ever will be. And after 15 years of exploration, there's almost no divergence in game-play (TvZ bio, possible mech transition or pure mech / TvP mech / TvT mech) If anything, it's all about convergence...
I have to point out that the style of bio used in TvP feels completely different from the style of bio used in TvZ / TvT...and SCV pull timings have almost nothing at all to do with whether or not bio is used in TvP...As to whether or not it's entertaining to watch...As I said this sort of thing tends to happen in RTS games like SC...it's all about CONVERGENCE, not excessive divergence. It's more interesting to see a unique opener or build transition into what we would call standard game-play after achieving some sort of objective...than it is to watch several completely different styles founded on a rock/paper/scissors element.
I think you're confusing DEPTH with this rock/paper/scissors element which you keep throwing out there. Designed properly, designed with DEPTH, and there is no reason why bio cannot be extremely entertaining for YEARS on end. Designed properly, there should exist multiple different ways to play with the same composition. Sure I'm making units of of a barracks in every matchup, but the way that I use these units in different match-ups should feel completely different! These differences exist in SC2. As to whether they are different ENOUGH, well, that's up for debate. But difference does not have to mean making different units, nor should it. That's shallow design.
And, uh, the TL staff writers are as mixed race as any group of StarCraft players...I see a fair share more Protoss favored articles than I do Terran and Zerg these days, anyhow  .
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4713 Posts
On May 05 2015 13:05 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 02:04 Destructicon wrote:On April 27 2015 23:48 Maniak_ wrote:On April 27 2015 20:31 Grumbels wrote:
Talking about 8 armor is somewhat confusing by the way. Why would you take attack and armor upgrades into account when discussing this kind of change, knowing that often they cancel each other out anyway? It's better to say that ultralisks now have 5 base armor as opposed to 3 base armor before, taking chitinous plating into account. Yes and no. By the time ultras are out, you should already be at 3/3 on your side. And the zerg should have upgraded melee if he intended to build ultras (though the buffed armor upgrade gives a bit more time to catch up). If you're 0/0 against ultras, something else went wrong But no matter if you take the upgrade into account or not, it's still irrelevant to look at marine/marauder against ultras. Zealots and stalkers don't counter ultras. Lings and roaches don't counter ultras. Why should marines & marauders be able to? Why should the same terran bio composition be able to kill each and every unit zerg can throw at them all game long, no matter the upgrades, no matter the tech tier? If the issue is terran transitioning from bio into something else (which is arguable), then fix *that*, instead of letting the same two tier-1 units be able to kill everything. Besides, there's not even any proven issue with any of this at the moment. Maybe there is, but with the cyclone, the economy, the disappearance of protoss and to a lesser extent the ravager, the waters are already pretty muddled. Marines and Marauders should be able to counter Ultralisks, because terran can't tech switch from bio to mech or from mech to bio. Not only do they require two totally different upgrades but they also require different production facilities. I'm sick and tired of seeing this same ignorance being spewed on to the forums time and time again. I think the dynamic between bio and ultralisks in HotS was just about right, its already super hard to engage into an army like that as terran, more often then not you need to kite anyway or your army dies, and attacking on to creep against ultralisks or facing ultra infestor is a huge nightmare. This is one of the reasons SC2 isn't yet as good of a game as it could: Bio best choice against everything in every matchup. It bores players to death. You are majorly wrong if you think that metagames of terran matchups that allow to never switch away from bio as 80% component of the army can make starcraft a better and more deep game. The main thing of RTS games is the rock scissor paper thing. That means when bio allows terran to be more mobile than basically everything aside of muta/ling/bane (btw. the main reason for zerg being narrowed to this composition, which again creates boredom and for nexus cannon gotten implemented) in the game then they cannot be the strongest against everything at the same time. It is time for a major change here. If this ultralisk change does the job well or not we will have to see. In any way, the right way to go cannot be to go back to WOL/HOTS 80% bio styles (what you demand) but to proceed and see how the terran race can be allowed to transition easier. This can be achieved in several ways: building size, building costs, production times etc. In fact this is something that I demanded already one to two years ago in the balance discussions of hots. Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 03:17 Destructicon wrote:
I'm guessing the Marauder nerf was so it won't wreck protoss as much (since most of their units are armored), given that they are switching the focus of toss more towards basic gateway units. But yeah, if they nerfed the marauder they really didn't need to also buff the ultra. Seriously when I read stuff like this, then I see that you neither wanna see basic changes that could make the game more appealing to alot of "lost" players again and nor you overview the whole thing. Why would you think that blizzard wanted to change marauder only for PvT and accidently missed the fact that it changes other matchups too? Why would you believe that marauders even matter or should matter when dealing with ultralisks? The answer is easy to me: You wanna keep your 10 rax spamming pure bio all game long in every matchup metagame at all costs. You don't see that this creates severe disadvantages for both TvP and TvZ metagames and at best was appealing in TvT as mech is an equal alternative there (hence TvT was rightfully considered best matchup in SC2 yet (lol)). Funny enough that you have the writers symbol next to your name when one must have already acknowledged in the past that major parts of the tl stuff and ppl close to them are quite favouring the terran race and very narrow minded about that. And at the same time for the sake of it you guys lose sight with the big goal of sc2 to become a better and more appealing game to everyone. Not appealing: Pure mechanics spam from 10 rax with close to zero strategy involved in all matchups (see SC2's decline, see glorious SCV pull gameplay (you seriously wonder why SC2 has lost viewers and players?), see every game being bio vs muta/bling). Appealing: Possible switches and transitions (instead of scv pull), favouring strategy a bit more than pure mechanics spam (See e.g. current successful games that allow more strategy than SC2, see Broodwar which didn't allow terran to do everything with bio in every matchup and which was quite a well designed and balanced game).
You forgot one thing. RTS games like BW and Starcraft2 (well mainly BW) aren't just pure rock<paper<scissors, the element of execution is also mixed in. If you take a pro at BW and put him against just a good player then you could conceivably see the balance turned on its head to rock>paper>scissors. This is why I like bio, its so skill intensive that you could realistically go up against nearly any composition and come out ahead if your execution is better then the other guy. Mech doesn't have that and its the reason I despise it, as well as protoss deathballs.
Contrary to what you think though, I don't exactly like the way bio works now. They lack a good gas dump. In BW bio was a ton different, you had marines as the core of your army and you supported them with medics (T1 units), tanks (T2 units) and later Science Vessel (T3 units). The zerg's army operated the same way in principle, you had lings in T1, lurkers in T2 (to control space, stall and create ambushes), mutalisk & scourge, also T2 (to harass and kill off vessels later on) and Ultralisk at T3 (to deal damage and tank).
If you pay close attention to the above you'll notice that the core of the army still remain the T1 units, however as the game progresses more and more support units are needed to anchor them. Bio and ling, bling, muta nearly achieve this, it would be better if tanks and ravens were more useful and if zerg did indeed have a viable late game unit to add.
What I don't want is the ultralisk to become THE core of the army. The units that are the core of the army should be units that are highly skill intensive on their own but also require other units to support them to increase their survivability or damage output. T1 units most easily fall into that category, T3 units most of the time are clunky, slow, unresponsive and a-moveish, they should nearly never be core units. For a example of how fucked it is to have boring a-move units as the core of the army just look at Protoss. The only exception was the BW carrier, it was a extreme late game unit but it behaved like T1 units in that it was somewhat fragile if caught out of position and focused by anti-air, but it was extremely skill intensive and rewarding.
Right now ultralisk is just too good, it deals tremendous damage but it also absorbs a abominable amount of damage, these characteristics sort of push other units to the way side and it becomes the optimal late unit and every other unit becomes its support. That is just wrong because the ultralisk is not particularly skillful to use. The ultralisk should be altered in some way to actually fulfill the T3 support role the zerg requires. It should either be a high damage unit that can bulldoze through enemy ranks but dies to focus fire, or it should be a very strong tanking unit that can draw fire away from the lings and banes so they can do more damage, IT SHOULD NOT BE BOTH!
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The problem with the ultra in HotS is not how tanky it is or how much damage it does but that it is SO big. The pathing is so bad on them and it is almost impossible to micro to correct unless you are in an open field.
If they just made the model a bit smaller/allowed them to step over more units ultras would be much more reliable.
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On May 05 2015 18:49 Para199x wrote:
The problem with the ultra in HotS is not how tanky it is or how much damage it does but that it is SO big. The pathing is so bad on them and it is almost impossible to micro to correct unless you are in an open field.
If they just made the model a bit smaller/allowed them to step over more units ultras would be much more reliable.
What you say presupposes that Blizzard is trying to buff the Ultralisk. I think it's far more likely that they're trying to kill lategame bio, and the Ultralisk simply happens to be their murder weapon of choice.
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On April 26 2015 05:47 richlol wrote:
Combined with the Marauder vs Armored nerf, it also completely hard counters Bio, which I thought Dkim wanted to move away from (hard counters).
Despite the bio comp being more entertaining than mech in the TvZ matchup, it seems like Dkim wants mech to be the only option T has vs Z, unless things are changed.
Bio is low tier, ultra is god tier. It would be silly to say that ultra is the hard counter, as it is used at the later stages of the game, while bio is used in the early game.
Yes I do know it is the backbone of terran, but my statement still holds true. You cannot possibly say that it hard counters something, when the units barely meet early - mid and even some of the late game.. That's just my opinion
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Hell, Terrans still want MMM to be working even after 25 minutes of game against everything....
Bio is not going to be dead at all, you'll simply need to mix in some Broken mech unit, which is something that gas-wise the Bio style is going to allow.
Bio is commonly played with Thor support, in a possible future that will be split between cyclones and the Antimutalisk flying unit for terran.
And don't forget that the Ghost is going to be revamped for sure, so in the end Bio will still work without much trouble.
Never forget that Bio is supposed to be more than MMM. Terrans are short-minded on that.
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Played as Terran vs Ultras yesterday.
Honestly, mass Cyclone just rapes them haha. My friend and I played some Archon mode and we made Hellbats/Cyclone/Raven.. killed basically anything zerg made.
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On May 05 2015 21:52 DinoMight wrote:
Played as Terran vs Ultras yesterday.
Honestly, mass Cyclone just rapes them haha. My friend and I played some Archon mode and we made Hellbats/Cyclone/Raven.. killed basically anything zerg made.
Yes, but some people are quite delusional.
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On May 05 2015 22:36 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 21:52 DinoMight wrote:
Played as Terran vs Ultras yesterday.
Honestly, mass Cyclone just rapes them haha. My friend and I played some Archon mode and we made Hellbats/Cyclone/Raven.. killed basically anything zerg made. Yes, but some people are quite delusional.
We were going Mech and kept trying different unit comps. Everytime there was a fight all our stuff would die except the Cyclones. So we just ended up with a whole bunch of Cyclones and I was like alright, fuck it dude, just keep making Cyclones.
And we won. It was pretty simple haha.
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Never forget that Bio is supposed to be more than MMM. Terrans are short-minded on that.
The problem is that adding in hardcounters to reward diversity is the wrong solution here. Yes some units should be better vs other units, but making it impossible for bio to deal damage to Ultralisks while further rewarding a kite-forever interaction is 100% the wrong direction.
If Ultras were a bit faster off creep and lower model size instead, I think the game would be much more fun for both the terran bio player and the zerg player.
On top of that, what is even the point of mixing in Cyclones? It doens't change any dynamics at all. Terran bio is still mobile and still kite bite-based. All you forced terran to do was mix in one unit that is produced from the factory instead of the barrack and is terribly binary in how you play it and leaves no counterplay for the opponent.
The proper way to reward diversity here is to nerf terran kiting efficiency vs Ultras and instead reward the terran player for mixing in units that changes the dynamic of the game. That's what BW did in TvZ as you would slowly transition into mech in the late game after opening bio. That meant that you transitioned from playing aggressively into defensively which had an interesting dynamic. Mixing in Cyclones on the other hand is anything but interessting.
You cannot possibly say that it hard counters something, when the units barely meet early - mid and even some of the late game.. That's just my opinion
Hardcounters have nothing to do with tiers as the whole idea notion of tier 3 units > tier 1 units is flawed. No tier 1 units, tier 2 units and tier 3 units should all be viable with different advantages and disadvantages.
On top of that, you seem to confuse "one unit being a bit better vs certain units" with "one unit completely dominating other units". The former is fine and the latter is a hardcounter which isn't fun.
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Lalalaland34483 Posts
I rarely venture into these threads but I'm pretty sure this isn't the place to discuss SC2 vs LoL etc as competitive games so please keep that elsewhere.
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On May 05 2015 23:01 Hider wrote:
On top of that, what is even the point of mixing in Cyclones? It doens't change any dynamics at all. Terran bio is still mobile and still kite bite-based. All you forced terran to do was mix in one unit that is produced from the factory instead of the barrack and is terribly binary in how you play it and leaves no counterplay for the opponent.
The proper way to reward diversity here is to nerf terran kiting efficiency vs Ultras and instead reward the terran player for mixing in units that changes the dynamic of the game. That's what BW did in TvZ as you would slowly transition into mech in the late game after opening bio. That meant that you transitioned from playing aggressively into defensively which had an interesting dynamic. Mixing in Cyclones on the other hand is anything but interessting.
Hardcounters have nothing to do with tiers, and you seem to confuse "one unit being a bit better vs certain units" with "one unit completely dominating other units". The former is fine and the latter is a hardcounter which isn't fun.
Very contradictory (something rare on you, Hinder) to say that you should reward diversity, mixing units that change the dynamic of the game, the Bio transition into Mech, BW-like.... And after that you say that Cyclones don't achieve that.
It achieves it. and offers an interesting transition point towards mech or Bio mech. Cyclones completely change the dynamic of the game since it forces the Zerg to move out of their Anti-Bio compo with Ultras.
T: MMM-> MMMM -> MMMMC/T or New starport unit -> MMMMCG
Z: LMB -> LBMU -> LBMUI> LBMUQI ->
It is false that Bio is dead with the ultralisk change, you can check last Lycan League TvZs. They dealt Ultras with MMMM in some occasions, but Cyclones were the good response.
And It is false that Zerg has no counterplay to Cyclones. Cracklings and Mutas already counter Cyclones. And both of them demand transition into Mech to deal with them quite properly (Hellion/New air unit) once Ultras hit the field. And Infestors and Vipers are a very interesting option. Broodlords can also be considered there. Infestors are specially interesting since they have the Neural Parasite range buff (can pick Cyclones before they acquire your units) and can stop the kiting thing.And Vipers have abduct and blinding cloud. What's more, every Zerg unit is faster than cyclones on creep except the queen, and most fighting units are faster than Cyclones and move around the same speed when offcreep.
Maybe the problem is that the unit appears too early or it seems uninteresting to you. If you don't like the unit, say it, there is many people that dislikes it. But Cyclones are exaclty the thing you have been talking about.
I think it is good to have ultras as an answer to Bio. It makes sense, considering that the LBM style was anchored in the early-midgame. Also, the Ultralisk tech path is part of the Zerg meele, so it complements it perfectly. It brings game proggression.
Forcing terran to move out of their all-around basic compo demanding them to use one unit that complements Bio (Mobile, Kiting friendly) Is not the end of the world.
And please don't talk about hardcountering and bring on Terran. Marauders, Ghost EMP, Hellbats, Mines and Ravens are in the game.
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On April 28 2015 04:49 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 04:17 DeadByDawn wrote:
Isn't the problem transitioning not that you don't have factories and starports but that you do not have enough of them? A zerg with a large bank and larva can insta switch composition. Maybe you lack upgrades but you are still in a better position than the Terran trying to spot this and then building 8 factories to counter in time.
Interesting to see that in the latest LotV patch notes they were talking about a building add on that allows the building to change type, from Rax to Factory for instance. Blizz knows that Terran cannot tech switch with a realistic chance of winning as they designed it this way - but now maybe they understand it was a dumb decision. Clearly terran should get the human macro mechanic from wc3 where you could speed build buildings by adding more workers to the construction.
Behold the new 14 14 proxy rax. You just need to pull more scvs.
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Cyclones completely change the dynamic of the game since it forces the Zerg to move out of their Anti-Bio compo with Ultras.
Different unit compositions =/ different dynamics.
What I mean by dynamics is more about playstyle. E.g switching from an aggerssive style to a defensive style. Multitask-based style to a timing/deathball-style.
With Cyclone mixed in to bio you just kite vs Ultras, which is something you would have done regardless. Mixing in Tanks on the other hand (as in BW) would change the dynamics.
Marauders, Ghost EMP, Hellbats, Mines and Ravens are in the game.
EMP and Ravens = Just awfully designed abilities/spellcasters, but aren't really hardcounters per se. While you could argue that Mines are poorly designed, they are far away from a hardcounter as its efficiency depends on the unit control of the opponent (and how well you set them up as a terran).
Hardcounters = When one unit dominates another unit in every single way (or perhaps there is one area where it doesn't dominate, but its other advantages clearly outweights the one disadvantage - production speed also matters here).
The implication of hardcounters are typically that micro/unit-control is put into background and instead becomes more about having the right unit compositions, which imo makes the game less fun to play and watch.
You could make a case for Maurauders and Hellbats. However, the former has an important impact on the dynamic as it makes bio less vulnerable to splash/abilities. On top of that, the Maurauders have several soft-counters (Zealot, Immortal vs protoss) and vs Collosus its also kinda of a soft-counter. While there are some situations where the Maurauder feels a bit like a hardcounter, the actual gameplay implications aren't as signifciant. Especially because protoss easily can mix in Zealots with Stalkers and terran can't outproduce the zerg in Maurauders vs Roaches.
Versus Ultralisks, the issue isn't as much the damage the Maurauders deals, but rather that Ultras can be kited infinitively off-creep which creates very lame interactions.
I don't agree with Blizzards decision to make Hellbats better vs light units than armored units, but that's a result of Siege Tank being too weak. It does kinda hardcounters Speedlings (despite it being much slower), however against Marines on the other hand, there is lots of counterplay potential.
TLDR: The armor buff to Ultralisks doesn't add any value to the gameplay that otherwise could be not created in a more fun way by a movement speed off creep along with lower model size.
Imo it makes more sense to scrap the Cyclone or completely redesign it, and buff the Siege Tank in the late game.
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EPT
