EPTI would love this feature to be in LOTV.
Would you?
Observe a Friends game in progress
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AgamemnonSC2
Canada254 Posts
I would love this feature to be in LOTV. Would you? | ||
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AgamemnonSC2
Canada254 Posts
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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Yiome
China1687 Posts
 If they can make sure the lag/drop on the observer side will not influence the players, then this is a good feature. Or it will cause a lot of problem | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 12 2015 11:22 graNite wrote: Why with a delay? Why not only from your friends perspective. You can only see what he can. I definitely think this is the best idea. otherwise you have to give like a 3-4 minute delay at least. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On June 12 2015 11:22 graNite wrote: Why with a delay? Why not only from your friends perspective. You can only see what he can. Assisting in cheating is the only idea I had. | ||
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SecretSnail
France12 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On June 12 2015 11:22 graNite wrote: Why with a delay? Why not only from your friends perspective. You can only see what he can. Higher ranked players could instruct lower league players on how to win from a position without any delay. It doesn't have to be a huge delay, but the system CS:GO and others have seems to work great. Honestly, this would be really cool to see added but I have my doubts it will... | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On June 12 2015 12:59 -Kyo- wrote: Higher ranked players could instruct lower league players on how to win from a position without any delay. would that be different from having someone stand over your shoulder and tell you what to do? or indeed high level players just trolling on low MMR accounts? | ||
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MagnuMizer
Denmark384 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45172 Posts
On June 12 2015 12:30 Pontius Pirate wrote: Assisting in cheating is the only idea I had. If it's from his perspective than I don't think that would be an issue (you'd see the same fog of war he does)  This would be an awesome idea! | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
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Rukis
United States252 Posts
If it is in the same lobby issues arise, such as lag, connection errors. thus loss match someone. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On June 12 2015 10:36 AgamemnonSC2 wrote: While waiting for a buddy to finish his match, I would have loved the option to observe his game. With chat disabled or a delay, of course. I would love this feature to be in LOTV. Would you? Drop-in spectating requires a new network model than the one that is currently in SC2. I've still suggested it, but we're talking a major fundamental overhaul. It's still worth it to do. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 12 2015 15:55 Rukis wrote: There is a big issue with this. Will you be observing the game in game? or in a different lobby? If it is in the same lobby issues arise, such as lag, connection errors. thus loss match someone. Do you know HLTV? We are talking about this system. But since we are not in year 2000 anymore, we can add some useful functions, like having this "streaming" platform in the client, so you don't have to connect to your game some weird console program. But we are talking about changing the whole system, as Excalibur wrote | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Think this should only be used for 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 ladder though and nothing else. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On June 12 2015 16:09 Excalibur_Z wrote: Drop-in spectating requires a new network model than the one that is currently in SC2. I've still suggested it, but we're talking a major fundamental overhaul. It's still worth it to do. I could be done like in heroes of the storm? When you 'reconnect' after a disconnect you have to play the entire replay up until the point of current gametime. It's a shitty system but I think it's the same engine right? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 12 2015 17:02 Pandemona wrote: Be cool Dota 2 function version would be the best on a delay or something because of course it opens up to cheating. Or like you say you just straight up ban chat. Think this should only be used for 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 ladder though and nothing else. Banning chat isn't enough when programs for talking exist Delay is needed.Also why not use it for custom games? I mean - this would be excellent for tourneys - you could sell tickets so fans can see 1st person view of their favorite player, no more waiting on streams until they "find a game to join" because they can join instantly to whatever game they want. A stupid user protection system(who is on the white-list can join the game, so when you pay the entry fee you are added on the white-list) I am not familiar with DotA 2 game at all. There's so many things you can do besides "the ladder and nothing else". It would also help Blizzard when they take % from every ticket. | ||
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MagnuMizer
Denmark384 Posts
On June 12 2015 16:09 Excalibur_Z wrote: Drop-in spectating requires a new network model than the one that is currently in SC2. I've still suggested it, but we're talking a major fundamental overhaul. It's still worth it to do. Yeah it's SO worth it, right? So glad to have someone like you with the deep insight and knowledge into Blizzards budget for Starcraft 2. We can now safely predict with 100% certainty that Blizzard will do it, since it's apparently, as you so assuredly put, worth it. #Kappa2theMax User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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noobPride
Spain333 Posts
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4514 Posts
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CCow
Germany335 Posts
But I think the aproaches are quite different. If you are restricted to the vision of the friend you are observing, it's great for tutoring. So the observed player would be the focus. If you are not restricted in that way, but have a few minutes of delay, it's great for the observers entertainment. So the observing player is the focus. I'm not 100% sure which one I prefer, probably the one restricting the vision, though. Since it would make teaching somebody how to play SC2 just so much easier. Atm you are pretty much forced to be right next to the person or bound to custom maps that allow for observers... | ||
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NekronautSC
1 Post
- If you want to coach you join the game as a coach from the beginning and the loading screen displays who is coaching. Vision is reduced to whatever the team you are coaching sees, no delay - If you only want to watch a game you join and can see everything. But there is a deleay - im not sure about it anymore but you can rewind and fast forward the game too (up to the point the game is played already) - tournaments can be viewed through the client - you can choose camera mode : free roam, obs, directed by the client itself etc. - several caster clients : community Caster(s), beginner channel and finally the official casters. Some Tournaments are free to watch through the client, and some need to be paid through steam so theres still some extra money to be earned. This is in addition to Twitch.tv. I think its quite crazy that the Dota 2 Client is so much more advanced even though the games are "only" 3 years apart. I would love if the Dota 2 features were in SC II and all of those features should be regarded as standard by the industry from now on. | ||
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Odowan Paleolithic
United States232 Posts
On June 12 2015 16:09 Excalibur_Z wrote: Drop-in spectating requires a new network model than the one that is currently in SC2. I've still suggested it, but we're talking a major fundamental overhaul. It's still worth it to do. People tend to forget how much more server load needed to run sc2 when everything now is p2p. There might be added benefit of map hack prevention if it doesn't require us to pay a subscription. More edit: If you desync in Dota or Hero or CSGO no problem the game keeps going you just saw the player avatar "blink". In SC2 you get a dialog "waiting for player", which is actually nicer compare to war3 where the game simply could crash. That's how most drop hacks made. Heck you can even drop hack by queuing up infinite, Human farms before it was fixed. The way it currently works is by tracking and sending game states to parties involved. Players send all inputs to each other and verify every cycle. Say each player has 2 units and make moves every second, each unit cost 1 network packet so you get 2 up 2 down. Now comes observer whose going to need the intel from both and it becomes 4 up 2 down. Each additional observer is going to cost the player additional upstream. Only the inputs get send which itself is small (replays are small as well). Of course you can make the first observer relay the intel but if that one is gone the game has to pause. Now sc2 is not like CSGO you just run 10 ray traces and 10 location verification. Or dota with 11 more interaction from spells, items and attacks from each hero, some more creep and towers. Starcraft has from 6 - 400 individual player units not counting the buildings and minerals. All those requires processing power and bandwidth. I doubt we will have a server just for ladder games in a client server sense. The local hardware is going to get cheaper. The network will take a while to update. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3463 Posts
If there was a published bracket inside the client and you can just click on the game you want to watch and go observe. If it cannot be done, we do already have Archon Mode. So I think a feature where you simply join-in as a party and just observe the game, as if it was an Archon Mode, but you have no control, would be very possible. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Would be a really nice feature to add if they can implement it. | ||
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AgamemnonSC2
Canada254 Posts
On June 12 2015 15:55 Rukis wrote: There is a big issue with this. Will you be observing the game in game? or in a different lobby? If it is in the same lobby issues arise, such as lag, connection errors. thus loss match someone. I think I had in mind being able to watch the game outside of the lobby. I don't think observers connection issues should be allowed to impact the game being played in any way. But, I'm no coder. | ||
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AgamemnonSC2
Canada254 Posts
On June 12 2015 19:55 ejozl wrote: Would be so good, especially combined with the automated tournament system. If there was a published bracket inside the client and you can just click on the game you want to watch and go observe. I wholeheartedly agree. I think your idea would solve the horrible wait times between your own scheduled matches. As much as I am looking forward to the Automated Tourneys, I was not looking forward to the downtime, or the people who would get bored of waiting and just leave. Being able to spectate would help to solve this. IMO | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
Even making a "watch random game" feature would be awesome, it would give people hope that someone is watching them play, thinking they are good. Rather than the alternative of 1) no one will ever know I played awesome, 2) the only person who will probably ever know about this game is my opponent who is calling me a faggot or 3) having to shove the replay down my friends throat who probably doesn't care at all. I think this actually has the potential to do a lot for the game, given even the possibility that someone could be watching your game could be another incentive to actually ladder. I imagine an interface feature too, that allows you to opt out of either friends, or random people, obsing your game. Great discussion. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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Garemie
United States248 Posts
even if there was a list of random ranked games you could spectate. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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xtorn
4060 Posts
On June 12 2015 18:03 Liquid`Ret wrote: this would be an amazing feature >_> would be absolutely fantastic. i would watch skilled players ladder and learn from them. this would revolutionize coaching, would bring more players in the game, this is a feature request with SO MANY hidden benefits. lag problems? who cares, a multi billion dollar company can definitely find a solution. | ||
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AgamemnonSC2
Canada254 Posts
"The engine doesn't allow it. Which is why there's no spectator function in Heroes of the Storm aswell. Wether or not this is happening will depend a lot on wether or not they want to add it for Heroes of the Storm, I think. It'd help making Starcraft a lot more social experience, yeah. It'd be amazing. But I'm afraid this will never really happen. As far as I understand, the engine basicly works in a way that transfers user input to all clients. Which is why the game will lag for you, when it lags for the opponent. So when you want to join a game, that's already going on, you'd have to watch it from the start (because the input from all prior commands would be missing). At the same time, it'd cause the game to lag or get out of sync, once you have slight connection problems as a spectator. In order for that to work, there would have to be an additional server that tracks all user input for all players. But the problem here would also be: "If the spectator server lags, your game will too". When connecting to this server as a spectator, it has to send you the exact state of the game in the moment you join the game.. Causing a lot of traffic (when a lot of people watch you), making it very likely for your game (as a player) to lag. You can see the problem of recreating a gamestate, when looking at recreating a game from replay." Now I'm worried we will never have this feature  | ||
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 15 2015 03:54 ElMeanYo wrote: ^ I guess the technology isn't there yet. Yeah, it is just almost 20 years old idea... | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On June 15 2015 04:19 deacon.frost wrote: Yeah, it is just almost 20 years old idea... I think it should be pretty doable. A damn 5v5 game with minions without much problems allows it and not SC2? How the fuck did they code their client? I think that a solution would be quite easy, since the replay file is being created while the game is on. So, theoretically, I think you could spectate the replay file with a 2 minute delay instead of the game going on, without much trouble. Instead of joining the match, join the broadcast. The game engine loops and sends info several times per second, how the hell isn't it going to be able to transmit a replay file? It could work with some infrastructure behind it, for sure. | ||
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Odowan Paleolithic
United States232 Posts
On June 15 2015 04:51 JCoto wrote: I think it should be pretty doable. A damn 5v5 game with minions without much problems allows it and not SC2? How the fuck did they code their client? I think that a solution would be quite easy, since the replay file is being created while the game is on. So, theoretically, I think you could spectate the replay file with a 2 minute delay instead of the game going on, without much trouble. Instead of joining the match, join the broadcast. The game engine loops and sends info several times per second, how the hell isn't it going to be able to transmit a replay file? It could work with some infrastructure behind it, for sure. Because there is only 10 heros + minions, and the server give 0 fuck when someone lags. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/117158-some-notes-regarding-sc2-networking | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On June 15 2015 05:07 Odowan Paleolithic wrote: Because there is only 10 heros + minions, and the server give 0 fuck when someone lags. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/117158-some-notes-regarding-sc2-networking So you think that observing a delayed replay file is impossible? This is 2015.... I think in any case an SC2 developer should be talking about SC2 network functions and how packages are transmitted.. Bringing a 2010 post whose autor has crossed out because it was wrong is not the best argument at all. There has to be a connection to a server at some point, even if it's peer to peer, that could be used to create a replica of the replay file. I think Dota2 / LoL use some system like that, since they work by 2 minute delay by default if i'm not wrong, so obviously, you aren't looking or inside the match directly like any of the players. And even with that, a simple system to have access to the replay of your friends if you want after the match ends would be a very easy way to give some viewing experience, that could be broadcasted. Many tournaments upload the replays of the games, so why not doing it with an automated feature on the client? Imagine a very simple feature implemented in autotournaments system (going to be implemented in LotV) that allows you to upload a bunch of replays to the automated tournament brackets. It could be done very easily, and could be just done with official tournements to prevent spam.... There are thousands of workarounds to be done or solutions, obviously because implementing many direct in-game observers would simply add more problems than benefits (map awarness cheat, dictating builds, shared vision, ingame lags...). It's all about spending time and having the engineers to code and review their engine. But Blizz simply prefers to have streaming and video services to broadcast their games and simply, avoid that kind of technical problems, which is a very good solution. The real problem is that Blizz fails at managing content and having it linked in a webpage: charts and twitch/YT links. They don't manage well the competitive content they promote | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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wcLLg
United States281 Posts
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Garuga
49 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On June 15 2015 00:05 AgamemnonSC2 wrote: Aisora on Battle.net explained why it is not possible: "The engine doesn't allow it. Which is why there's no spectator function in Heroes of the Storm aswell. Wether or not this is happening will depend a lot on wether or not they want to add it for Heroes of the Storm, I think. It'd help making Starcraft a lot more social experience, yeah. It'd be amazing. But I'm afraid this will never really happen. As far as I understand, the engine basicly works in a way that transfers user input to all clients. Which is why the game will lag for you, when it lags for the opponent. So when you want to join a game, that's already going on, you'd have to watch it from the start (because the input from all prior commands would be missing). At the same time, it'd cause the game to lag or get out of sync, once you have slight connection problems as a spectator. In order for that to work, there would have to be an additional server that tracks all user input for all players. But the problem here would also be: "If the spectator server lags, your game will too". When connecting to this server as a spectator, it has to send you the exact state of the game in the moment you join the game.. Causing a lot of traffic (when a lot of people watch you), making it very likely for your game (as a player) to lag. You can see the problem of recreating a gamestate, when looking at recreating a game from replay." Now I'm worried we will never have this feature This may be the way it works but, with enough effort, I am quite sure they could muscle in a some sort of feed out of a game that could be watchable. A 3rd server side member of every game, some sort of virtual observer, that somehow then feeds it to clients doesn't sound like an absolute impossibility. They need to do something :/ why not this. They've always bragged about how "the engine could do anything" | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 15 2015 14:49 CursOr wrote: This may be the way it works but, with enough effort, I am quite sure they could muscle in a some sort of feed out of a game that could be watchable. A 3rd server side member of every game, some sort of virtual observer, that somehow then feeds it to clients doesn't sound like an absolute impossibility. They need to do something :/ why not this. They've always bragged about how "the engine could do anything" That's why I mentioned HLTV earlier, because it is just an observer which starts its own server from where it distributes every information needed. In theory it is absolutely in their power to do it - you will have to enable this "observer" to connect to the game(or add it to the LotV client), you will have to enable some way to connect to this observer instead of the game lobby and then rework the network code to be more efficient. Like don't wait on laggers(it's a replay watching service, not a game). Maybe add sufficient delay so you can send compressed information for a period instead of every information right now(which is good enough for replay watching service but horribly wrong for players playing the game) etc. I don't think they want to do it, maybe it's too expensive, because their code is one huge mess(as it happens from time to time) and they would need to do more than just "add some thinks"  | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On June 15 2015 17:56 deacon.frost wrote: That's why I mentioned HLTV earlier, because it is just an observer which starts its own server from where it distributes every information needed. In theory it is absolutely in their power to do it - you will have to enable this "observer" to connect to the game(or add it to the LotV client), you will have to enable some way to connect to this observer instead of the game lobby and then rework the network code to be more efficient. Like don't wait on laggers(it's a replay watching service, not a game). Maybe add sufficient delay so you can send compressed information for a period instead of every information right now(which is good enough for replay watching service but horribly wrong for players playing the game) etc. I don't think they want to do it, maybe it's too expensive, because their code is one huge mess(as it happens from time to time) and they would need to do more than just "add some thinks" That's more or less what I've said: just take the replay file that is being writed while the game is on, with 2-5 minute delay, and enjoy the match from a replay instead of being conected to their game. | ||
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jojos11
Korea (North)314 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QlgfWJM.jpg) | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
On June 12 2015 12:59 -Kyo- wrote: Higher ranked players could instruct lower league players on how to win from a position without any delay. It doesn't have to be a huge delay, but the system CS:GO and others have seems to work great. Honestly, this would be really cool to see added but I have my doubts it will... You can have a good friend sitting behind you giving you tips in real life, you can share your screen or stream and have people online help you. There are already plenty of ways to cheat like that. Granted, it would make it a lot easier but there are ways to that even now. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
On June 12 2015 17:02 Pandemona wrote: Be cool Dota 2 function version would be the best on a delay or something because of course it opens up to cheating. Or like you say you just straight up ban chat. Think this should only be used for 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 ladder though and nothing else. The Dota 2 client is really powerful and solves some of the problems quite well in my opinion. - If you want to coach you join the game as a coach from the beginning and the loading screen displays who is coaching. Vision is reduced to whatever the team you are coaching sees, no delay - If you only want to watch a game you join and can see everything. But there is a deleay - im not sure about it anymore but you can rewind and fast forward the game too (up to the point the game is played already) - tournaments can be viewed through the client - you can choose camera mode : free roam, obs, directed by the client itself etc. Dota 2 engine is very different from sc2's by design choice, they have very different priorities also, being able to see everything is a much bigger problem in sc2 than in dota i think. In a MOBA game there is little that you'd have to keep hidden for 10 or 15 minutes - while in sc2 there are occasionally situations where a 5 or even a 10 minute delay would be too little time and somebody watching could significantly influence the game from seeing something like a hidden expansion (or somebody upgrading air while building mech for example) 5-10 minutes after it started to happen | ||
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Odowan Paleolithic
United States232 Posts
To Illustrate. https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking for Dota 2 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php for SC2 and most if not all RTS Note: Planetary Annihilation is different, here is how: http://forrestthewoods.com/the-tech-of-planetary-annihilation-chronocam/ I have no information on League except I see people regularly "rejoined the match". @JCoto I can tell you right now the packets are routed, See The Revolution of StarCraft Network Traffic. This does not necessarily mean the Battle.net server store a copy of every replay everyone ever played. On June 15 2015 17:56 deacon.frost wrote: + Show Spoiler + That's why I mentioned HLTV earlier, because it is just an observer which starts its own server from where it distributes every information needed. In theory it is absolutely in their power to do it - you will have to enable this "observer" to connect to the game(or add it to the LotV client), you will have to enable some way to connect to this observer instead of the game lobby and then rework the network code to be more efficient. Like don't wait on laggers(it's a replay watching service, not a game). Maybe add sufficient delay so you can send compressed information for a period instead of every information right now(which is good enough for replay watching service but horribly wrong for players playing the game) etc. I don't think they want to do it, maybe it's too expensive, because their code is one huge mess(as it happens from time to time) and they would need to do more than just "add some thinks" The most likely truth considering the amount of ladder games we grind each day. We can hope LotV uses the Planetary Annihilation model (even when the beta is already 2 month in). The bandwidth on server upstream is targeted at 1Mbit per player if you read the article at the end. I reason the bandwidth requirement on SC2 is lower but should not be much different because there are spells and micros that are not simply updated using "curves". Then again you always hear people complaining lag on that side. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
A replay file is fairly small traffic, and im pretty sure it already gets uploaded to blizzard (or they should have it since its on their server). if it is uploaded live it should definitely be possible to watch your friends game in a replay format - at worst after the game has finished. | ||
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