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On May 23 2015 07:01 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 06:19 hitpoint wrote:Terran is already a complete race imo, there's nothing more to add. TvZ Bio still has absolutely nothing to tech into past tier 2 Medivacs, 5 years after the game's release. "Complete race."
And it's the best/most entertaining matchup. I don't see the problem. In any case, if the definition of "complete" means having more things to tech to. I think that can be fixed by tweaking existing units that don't see use in TvZ, like Ghosts or BCs.
Additional units like this feel cheap, like the only place they have in the game is to sell the expansion. Adding pointless units just so the expansion can have two new units per race is harmful to the game. The swarm host felt the same way, and the tempest definitely felt the same way. The latter unit is universally hated and generally accepted as a poorly designed unit, while the former almost killed SC2 and is at the very least responsible for a significant decline in viewership/players/interest.
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On May 23 2015 07:51 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 07:01 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 23 2015 06:19 hitpoint wrote:Terran is already a complete race imo, there's nothing more to add. TvZ Bio still has absolutely nothing to tech into past tier 2 Medivacs, 5 years after the game's release. "Complete race." And it's the best/most entertaining matchup. I don't see the problem. In any case, if the definition of "complete" means having more things to tech to. I think that can be fixed by tweaking existing units that don't see use in TvZ, like Ghosts or BCs.
It is the best/most entertaining MU, but Terran pros are obviously very limited in terms of expressing their creativity when playing bio. There are very, very few cool surprises they can pull out of their hats. The gameplay doesn't really change from the midgame to the lategame, there's just more of it. And look at what they do with LOTV, instead of adding new dimensions and depth to bio play, they just force Terrans out of it by turning the Ultralisk into a brick wall. That's the definition of lack of balls.
Could Ghosts/BCs/Ravens/Reapers be repurposed to pick up the slack? Absolutely, I'd love to see that happen.
But it's becoming very clear that expecting Blizzard to EXPERIMENT during a BETA is foolishly naive.
Additional units like this feel cheap, like the only place they have in the game is to sell the expansion. Adding pointless units just so the expansion can have two new units per race is harmful to the game. The swarm host felt the same way, and the tempest definitely felt the same way. The latter unit is universally hated and generally accepted as a poorly designed unit, while the former almost killed SC2 and is at the very least responsible for a significant decline in viewership/players/interest.
I agree with most of this, except the Swarm Host thing. I mean, obviously it was designed and implemented poorly, but I don't think that the idea is uninspired/unsalvageable. Unlike the Tempest which is just slow-moving non-responsive trash.
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On May 23 2015 06:19 hitpoint wrote:
I think the new unit sounds stupid. Terran is already a complete race imo, there's nothing more to add. They definitely don't need any more counters to mutas though. Ling/muta is the only style left in this game that is entertaining.
The turret change is fine. If anything spores should require an evo also.
These small changes are disappointing and don't really fix the problems with the game.
Well I think you're right that terran doesn't need any new "units" but I could see terran benefiting from a new defensive structure because let's face it, bunkers consuming supply is annoying.
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Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
Also, these polls about changes are always mostly positive. I can't remember a time when the disapproval was greater than the approval for a change. Although this time, there was less approval than usual.
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On May 23 2015 08:48 whetherbye wrote:
Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
Also, these polls about changes are always mostly positive. I can't remember a time when the disapproval was greater than the approval for a change. Although this time, there was less approval than usual.
Apparently it is a widely believed fact that TL favours Terran, so why not Blizzard? 
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I agree that Ground mech and Air upgrades need to be split. I also think it would add to the game if they change the Protoss upgrades so that the choice between armor and shield upgrades have more impact and require thought-investment. As of now, shield upgrades are simply there as a luxury. Some mix of armor upgrades nerf and shield upgrades buff would achieve that, I think, but the details can be worked out by testing.
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On May 23 2015 08:48 whetherbye wrote:
Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
Also, these polls about changes are always mostly positive. I can't remember a time when the disapproval was greater than the approval for a change. Although this time, there was less approval than usual.
All races have almost the same number of units, I thing is a "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" thing, everybody thinks the other races are favored and their own race is the disliked.
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On May 23 2015 05:06 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 03:01 Teoita wrote:
So much for a beta with lots of drastic changes... Where did Blizzard even promise that? I know that hope springs eternal, but it's safer to assume that the beta is longer because the development team is smaller and Blizzard doesn't want the beta to interfere with development of HOTS and other games. And because they want to make sure that the economy change won't wreck the game.
That's my reaction to many posts as well. I don't remember such a promise from Blizzard nor do I understand what kind of drastic changes people are imagining. Do people want hero units or dragons around the maps?
No one throws away the works they have refined. Like it or not, Blizzard have balanced this game since it's been out, and the balance is relatively in a good place today compared to when the game first came out. It is silly to think that Blizzard will suddenly throw away the knowledge they've learned so far and start from scratch. Balancing the new units itself may require many trial and errors. Starting worker number change is also a big change whose impact may not be fully known until many months after LOTV is out.
As for the new units - they are required for sales. I hate the redundant units as much as anyone and I wish they just patch the existing game. But unfortunately that is not the world we live in. New units + Campaign are needed for them to sell the boxes for $40 a pop. If you disapprove this, petition for a boycott of LOTV. But then again, I do not expect that to be supported by TL.net.
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On May 23 2015 08:11 pure.Wasted wrote:
I agree with most of this, except the Swarm Host thing. I mean, obviously it was designed and implemented poorly, but I don't think that the idea is uninspired/unsalvageable. Unlike the Tempest which is just slow-moving non-responsive trash.
If my memory serves, SH was the most beloved new units of HOTS in this community during its beta testing period. It goes to show a lot.. about the said community.
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On May 23 2015 08:48 whetherbye wrote:
Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
I think the cancer mine is definitive proof of this. Not just that they like terran, but that they hate the other races and they want them to suffer.
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On May 23 2015 09:26 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 08:11 pure.Wasted wrote:
I agree with most of this, except the Swarm Host thing. I mean, obviously it was designed and implemented poorly, but I don't think that the idea is uninspired/unsalvageable. Unlike the Tempest which is just slow-moving non-responsive trash. If my memory serves, SH was the most beloved new units of HOTS in this community during its beta testing period. It goes to show a lot.. about the said community.
No I think it shows a lot of how badly designed the other units were.
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On May 23 2015 08:57 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 08:48 whetherbye wrote:
Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
Also, these polls about changes are always mostly positive. I can't remember a time when the disapproval was greater than the approval for a change. Although this time, there was less approval than usual. Apparently it is a widely believed fact that TL favours Terran, so why not Blizzard?
It's widely believed that Blizzard favors Terran too... except when it comes to mech lol.
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On May 23 2015 09:00 usethis2 wrote:
I agree that Ground mech and Air upgrades need to be split. I also think it would add to the game if they change the Protoss upgrades so that the choice between armor and shield upgrades have more impact and require thought-investment. As of now, shield upgrades are simply there as a luxury. Some mix of armor upgrades nerf and shield upgrades buff would achieve that, I think, but the details can be worked out by testing.
With adepts having most of their HP tied up in shields and carriers being so powerful, I wouldn't be surprised if the shield upgrade was researched before ground armor in some circumstances.
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On May 23 2015 09:17 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 05:06 Grumbels wrote:On May 23 2015 03:01 Teoita wrote:
So much for a beta with lots of drastic changes... Where did Blizzard even promise that? I know that hope springs eternal, but it's safer to assume that the beta is longer because the development team is smaller and Blizzard doesn't want the beta to interfere with development of HOTS and other games. And because they want to make sure that the economy change won't wreck the game. No one throws away the works they have refined. Like it or not, Blizzard have balanced this game since it's been out, and the balance is relatively in a good place today compared to when the game first came out.
Balancing a game is easy. Making a game that's worthy of spending years to balance, and then making sure it doesn't lose its spark during the balancing process, is the tough part. Whether HOTS is such a game is a very open question.
Some MUs still favor coin-flip openings, some MUs promote turtling and passivity, some MUs do not provide professional players with any room for creativity and feature the same units being used for the last 5 years in the exact same ways. Balancing this game to 50/50 will never solve any of that.
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On May 23 2015 10:14 robopork wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 09:00 usethis2 wrote:
I agree that Ground mech and Air upgrades need to be split. I also think it would add to the game if they change the Protoss upgrades so that the choice between armor and shield upgrades have more impact and require thought-investment. As of now, shield upgrades are simply there as a luxury. Some mix of armor upgrades nerf and shield upgrades buff would achieve that, I think, but the details can be worked out by testing. With adepts having most of their HP tied up in shields and carriers being so powerful, I wouldn't be surprised if the shield upgrade was researched before ground armor in some circumstances.
QXC was talking to me about this and from what he said he calculated it is apparently still better to research Armor upgrade due to the base armor of 1 - aka you get more total hits out of an adept this way. I think he may be right with this, even with the adept shield upgrade, not just because of the base armor thing but also because you are not pulling back hurt adepts in big fights like you do with blink stalkers, which imo, is probably the only time you want shields first as you preserve the unit's health and can continue to fight with them by the time the rest of the army blinks back.
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On May 23 2015 09:02 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 08:48 whetherbye wrote:
Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
Also, these polls about changes are always mostly positive. I can't remember a time when the disapproval was greater than the approval for a change. Although this time, there was less approval than usual. All races have almost the same number of units, I thing is a "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" thing, everybody thinks the other races are favored and their own race is the disliked.
Could be true, but even farther of the perception, there is a fact that in the last months was:
-Buff hellbat/hellion transformation without upgrade.
-Buff Widow mine.
-Buff Thors.
-Nerf swarm host.
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On May 23 2015 12:34 FaiFai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 09:02 Lexender wrote:On May 23 2015 08:48 whetherbye wrote:
Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
Also, these polls about changes are always mostly positive. I can't remember a time when the disapproval was greater than the approval for a change. Although this time, there was less approval than usual. All races have almost the same number of units, I thing is a "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" thing, everybody thinks the other races are favored and their own race is the disliked. Could be true, but even farther of the perception, there is a fact that in the last months was: -Buff hellbat/hellion transformation without upgrade. -Buff Widow mine. -Buff Thors. -Nerf swarm host.
Well this proves my point, yes all these changes to terran well other races got nothing right? picking only the points that serve you, you are just seeing the these things and not all the changes "terran is so strong because of this,all the other changes don't matter"
Exactly my point.
Plus the fact that balance is good, maybe a bit fucked for zerg but thats both against terran and protoss.
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On May 23 2015 12:48 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 12:34 FaiFai wrote:On May 23 2015 09:02 Lexender wrote:On May 23 2015 08:48 whetherbye wrote:
Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
Also, these polls about changes are always mostly positive. I can't remember a time when the disapproval was greater than the approval for a change. Although this time, there was less approval than usual. All races have almost the same number of units, I thing is a "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" thing, everybody thinks the other races are favored and their own race is the disliked. Could be true, but even farther of the perception, there is a fact that in the last months was: -Buff hellbat/hellion transformation without upgrade. -Buff Widow mine. -Buff Thors. -Nerf swarm host. Well this proves my point, yes all these changes to terran well other races got nothing right? picking only the points that serve you, you are just seeing the these things and not all the changes "terran is so strong because of this,all the other changes don't matter" Exactly my point. Plus the fact that balance is good, maybe a bit fucked for zerg but thats both against terran and protoss.
Then you can enum what other changes favor protoss and zerg in the last months, and can be considered buffs or nerfs, for their big impact on the gameplay.
PD: I ´m not saying that zerg or protoss are victims and are a conspiration to make terrans invincible or somehitng like that, i just show facts, nothing more nothing less.
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Did they just give the Terran a cyclone that can fly?
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On May 23 2015 12:54 FaiFai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2015 12:48 Lexender wrote:On May 23 2015 12:34 FaiFai wrote:On May 23 2015 09:02 Lexender wrote:On May 23 2015 08:48 whetherbye wrote:
Is it just me, or do other's also get the feeling that Blizzard favors Terran? I'm not sure why I get that feeling, even though the turret and split upgrades is a nerf. Maybe the wide array of units? Although that just means more micro perhaps.
Also, these polls about changes are always mostly positive. I can't remember a time when the disapproval was greater than the approval for a change. Although this time, there was less approval than usual. All races have almost the same number of units, I thing is a "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" thing, everybody thinks the other races are favored and their own race is the disliked. Could be true, but even farther of the perception, there is a fact that in the last months was: -Buff hellbat/hellion transformation without upgrade. -Buff Widow mine. -Buff Thors. -Nerf swarm host. Well this proves my point, yes all these changes to terran well other races got nothing right? picking only the points that serve you, you are just seeing the these things and not all the changes "terran is so strong because of this,all the other changes don't matter" Exactly my point. Plus the fact that balance is good, maybe a bit fucked for zerg but thats both against terran and protoss. Then you can enum what other changes favor protoss and zerg in the last months, and can be considered buffs or nerfs, for their big impact on the gameplay. PD: Im not saying that zerg or protoss are unfavored and are a conspiration to make terrans invincible or somehitng like taht, i just show facts, nothing more nothing less.
Viper buff, Raven nerf.
Actually there haven't been many changes, I'm amazed by that, but there you go, blizz loves terran then, now you can play ladder and blame your loses on that, or not play because terran.
You say you are not talking about that just after, you talk about that, I guess I just don't understand your point, so I clarify, what its your point? or you don't have one.
I don't even know with this community, I just don't get it anymore.
EDIT: Also the WM wasn't buffed they just reverted a change.
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EPT
