|
My thoughts about the Adept so far
Based on what I have seen until now its special ability feels a bit odd and unnatural to use. I think it would be better if the Adept itself turns into a shade form, which provides it with faster movement speed, invulnerability, the inability causing damage and the power to slip through other units. In that way the Adept would have a much more natural hit-and-run feeling in its use. This would also avoid the similarity to the stalkers blink. Right now, it just feels like a poor copy of that.
You may agree with me or not 
Beside that special ability it would be nice if the stats of the Adept could be tweaked into a form in which it would be able to trade kind of okayish against mass hydra and mass marine compositions, buying you enough time to transition into colossus/disruptor/HT.
On the aesthetic side, I really do not like the way it walks. It should use a psionic levitation the same way High Templar use (without that shadow thing). Also that weapon feels abit too clunky and does not fit the protoss style. It should be more like a slim palm-integrated weapon, or a weapon attached to the forearm like the zealots do.
|
On April 03 2015 20:32 Aenur wrote:My thoughts about the Adept so far Based on what I have seen until now its special ability feels a bit odd and unnatural to use. I think it would be better if the Adept itself turns into a shade form, which provides it with faster movement speed, invulnerability, the inability causing damage and the power to slip through other units. In that way the Adept would have a much more natural hit-and-run feeling in its use. This would also avoid the similarity to the stalkers blink. Right now, it just feels like a poor copy of that. You may agree with me or not Beside that special ability it would be nice if the stats of the Adept could be tweaked into a form in which it would be able to trade kind of okayish against mass hydra and mass marine compositions, buying you enough time to transition into colossus/disruptor/HT. On the aesthetic side, I really do not like the way it walks. It should use a psionic levitation the same way High Templar use (without that shadow thing). Also that weapon feels abit too clunky and does not fit the protoss style. It should be more like a slim palm-integrated weapon, or a weapon attached to the forearm like the zealots do.
I don't see the Adept as a protoss core unit (it just can never really fill that role I believe), and it's not what protoss really needed. Imo the Immortal should receive a larger role as that is a non gimmicky tier 2-unit that comes from a standard production facility. Meanwhile more "gimmicky" units like the Adept should be designed around very high mobility that allows for outplay but relatively weak core stats.
Trying to make the Adept a middle-of-the road unit is just gonna end up not making it particularly good and fun at either thing, and thus I want to this a unit that has more viability than the Reaper but still maintains a really high level of mobility.
My Adept idea
Once you are teleported to the shadow then a new shadow takes your place (as how Zed works in LOL), and you can constantly move the shadow around.
The duration time for teleport should be lowered to roughly 8 seconds in order to give it more mobility. There is no cooldown for when you can start the "teleport"-proces.
In order to promote more counterplay the shadow should be killable, but it should be quite tanky (250-400 HP).
The Adept it self should be very vulnerable (low HP/shield). Decent damage and 3-4 range. Movement speed = 2.25
At twilight council an upgrade is added that further boosts the shadows tankiness and allows it to pass through buildings (its important that it cant do this early game, but late game its needed imo).
Implications
These changes will reward players who micro both the shadow and the Adept all the time. But the protoss player must think twice about where he sends his shadow as it can be killed.
The Adept isn't a unit that deals lots of damage at one moment and it's quite forgiveable to play against it due to its slow movement speed and low range. So in that regard it's a different harass-threat than the one of Storm drops/Disruptors/Oracles.
However, it's a constant threat and a skilled protoss player will deal damage all the time with them (and everywhere).
Due to its upgrade and the effect of the new economy, it also doesn't fall off late game. Yes its not good during larger engagements but its very efficient at attacking the weak links of the enemy and escaping shortly after.
|
On April 03 2015 22:04 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 20:32 Aenur wrote:My thoughts about the Adept so far Based on what I have seen until now its special ability feels a bit odd and unnatural to use. I think it would be better if the Adept itself turns into a shade form, which provides it with faster movement speed, invulnerability, the inability causing damage and the power to slip through other units. In that way the Adept would have a much more natural hit-and-run feeling in its use. This would also avoid the similarity to the stalkers blink. Right now, it just feels like a poor copy of that. You may agree with me or not Beside that special ability it would be nice if the stats of the Adept could be tweaked into a form in which it would be able to trade kind of okayish against mass hydra and mass marine compositions, buying you enough time to transition into colossus/disruptor/HT. On the aesthetic side, I really do not like the way it walks. It should use a psionic levitation the same way High Templar use (without that shadow thing). Also that weapon feels abit too clunky and does not fit the protoss style. It should be more like a slim palm-integrated weapon, or a weapon attached to the forearm like the zealots do. I don't see the Adept as a protoss core unit (it just can never really fill that role I believe), and it's not what protoss really needed. Imo the Immortal should receive a larger role as that is a non gimmicky tier 2-unit that comes from a standard production facility. Meanwhile more "gimmicky" units like the Adept should be designed around very high mobility that allows for outplay but relatively weak core stats. Trying to make the Adept a middle-of-the road unit is just gonna end up not making it particularly good and fun at either thing, and thus I want to this a unit that has more viability than the Reaper but still maintains a really high level of mobility. My Adept ideaOnce you are teleported to the shadow then a new shadow takes your place (as how Zed works in LOL), and you can constantly move the shadow around. The duration time for teleport should be lowered to roughly 8 seconds in order to give it more mobility. There is no cooldown for when you can start the "teleport"-proces. In order to promote more counterplay the shadow should be killable, but it should be quite tanky (250-400 HP). The Adept it self should be very vulnerable (low HP/shield). Decent damage and 3-4 range. Movement speed = 2.25 At twilight council an upgrade is added that further boosts the shadows tankiness and allows it to pass through buildings (its important that it cant do this early game, but late game its needed imo).
ImplicationsThese changes will reward players who micro both the shadow and the Adept all the time. But the protoss player must think twice about where he sends his shadow as it can be killed. The Adept isn't a unit that deals lots of damage at one moment and it's quite forgiveable to play against it due to its slow movement speed and low range. So in that regard it's a different harass-threat than the one of Storm drops/Disruptors/Oracles. However, it's a constant threat and a skilled protoss player will deal damage all the time with them (and everywhere). Due to its upgrade and the effect of the new economy, it also doesn't fall off late game. Yes its not good during larger engagements but its very efficient at attacking the weak links of the enemy and escaping shortly after.
What would happen if the shadow would die? Would the adept simply spawn a new shadow? I'm not sure I like this, since I think graphically constantly spawning shadows with hit points would give awkward health bar clutter. Furthermore with corporal shadows the pathing expectations become different, and I don't know if it would make sense to have them move through everything.
Out of curiosity, how do shadow visual effects work for the adept? I think it would be funny if when you spawn the shade it sort of emerges from the shadow, leaving the adept without one, and with the shade having no shadow of its own.
I haven't actually seen adepts in action (since HuK refused to build them). I wonder about the reaper / blink stalker effect, does the unit have some early game rush potential that by necessity leaves it in a weaker state? I thought that the main issue with the aforementioned units was the cliff-scaling potential, and that adepts would be able to mimic this by having the shades pass through (at least) zealots. (I actually don't know, but do the shades have pathing interactions with other units?)
|
I was just promoted to Gold..where's my beta Blizz?!
*sigh* 
|
United Kingdom20318 Posts
I don't see the Adept as a protoss core unit (it just can never really fill that role I believe), and it's not what protoss really needed. Imo the Immortal should receive a larger role as that is a non gimmicky tier 2-unit that comes from a standard production facility. Meanwhile more "gimmicky" units like the Adept should be designed around very high mobility that allows for outplay but relatively weak core stats.
I think the opposite and they should really make the Adept that core unit. There's plenty of ways to make use of an anti-light splash damage unit from the gateway. If it was tuned decently it would be extremely powerful
|
What would happen if the shadow would die? Would the adept simply spawn a new shadow?
Then you wouldn't teleport to the shadow. But you could launch a new shadow from the Adept.
I'm not sure I like this, since I think graphically constantly spawning shadows with hit points would give awkward health bar clutter.
Just to clarify, you can only spawn one shadow at a time. There are no constantly spawning shadows. If you cast a new shadow, the old shadow is replaced.
It's only once the protoss player activates it a shadow is created, and once you have been teleported, a shadow is created from your prior location (as with Zed in League of Legends - but unlike with Zed you can teleport back and fourth all the time between Shadows - at a fixed CD ofc).
|
The more I see the adept in play, the more I think the shade ability isn't needed. It could be balanced in a number of ways, as a core anti light gateway unit or as an early game harasser quite similar to WoL reaper, but I'm pretty sure the shade ability doesn't bring much to the adept and feels just like another teleport.
|
I saw a suggestion on reddit that I like w/r/t the adept, it was to remove blink from the stalker and buff stalker stats, and replace the adept ability with blink.
|
On April 04 2015 01:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The more I see the adept in play, the more I think the shade ability isn't needed. It could be balanced in a number of ways, as a core anti light gateway unit or as an early game harasser quite similar to WoL reaper, but I'm pretty sure the shade ability doesn't bring much to the adept and feels just like another teleport.
It doesn't bring anything to the table atm. as the ability is way too weak. In my opinion you either go all-in on the shadow-thing and give it weak core stats with insane shadow-micro potential or you make this a core unit (with no gimmick). The current in-between solution just doesn't work.
The reason I prefer the "buff the shadow"-approach instead of the core-unit solution is twofold;
(1) As long as there is counterplay, mobility units are awesome.
(2) I don't like making warpgate units too strong in terms of core stats due to timing attacks/all-ins being buffed at the same time. I much rather promote the Immortal as a core-unit.
|
United Kingdom20318 Posts
The reason I prefer the "buff the shadow"-approach instead of the core-unit solution is twofold;
(1) As long as there is counterplay, mobility units are awesome.
We have stalkers for that
(2) I don't like making warpgate units too strong in terms of core stats due to timing attacks/all-ins being buffed at the same time. I much rather promote the Immortal as a core-unit.
Warpgate was nerfed for use anywhere near combat and core units (immortal, colossus) neutered
|
On April 04 2015 01:43 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +
The reason I prefer the "buff the shadow"-approach instead of the core-unit solution is twofold;
(1) As long as there is counterplay, mobility units are awesome.
We have stalkers for that Show nested quote +(2) I don't like making warpgate units too strong in terms of core stats due to timing attacks/all-ins being buffed at the same time. I much rather promote the Immortal as a core-unit. Warpgate was nerfed for use anywhere near combat and core units (immortal, colossus) neutered
Well, in terms of balancing protoss it's pretty easy for Blizzard to do something like reduce cost/build time of robotics facility and to add similar buffs to the immortal. One can assume they haven't done anything of the sort since they weren't focused on balance so far, but that given the current state of protoss this might be done in the near future and Blizzard is just gathering data to decide on the precise buff.
|
When I watch protoss play it seems like they're too far behind on economy somehow, as if that isn't tuned correctly with the new changes. I don't know if Blizzard will bother with this, but they could easily tweak protoss to have more chronoboost at the start, or for zerg to have less larva at the start (afaik zerg starts with more larva while protoss still starts with a nexus with 0 energy?). I think one reason adepts might be considered weak is that there is little point to them if the zerg can have 10 zerglings and two bases out by that time (e.g.). Alternatively, the adept could have psionic transfer improved to make it especially fearsome in the early game (there is a potential for a lack of counterplay here though), just to give protoss the tools to make it to a more reliable immortal-based composition.
|
We have stalkers for that
And the Stalker is already a core-unit as well. So per definition (regardless of which solution you prefer) adept is gonna be in competion with the Stalker.
You want it to be something that is better vs light units... Okay, that still brings it in competiion with Stalkers as Stalkers can kite slowlings/unstimmed Marines and Sentries (FF and Guardian Shield).
Late game it's in competition with all of the toss splash units. Then you could argue that maybe there is a place for the Adept as strong anti-light in the midgame vs terran only. But what type of micro does that reward actually? Adept is gonna a-move the bio army? Or what specific interaction are you imagining here?
When it comes to deciding on -unit roles, the first thing that must be answered is how we can add fun and unique micro/multitasking into the game?
Once that has been answered, you can try to create unit-roles intended to promote the micro interactions. That is indeed likely to require some tweaks to the other protoss units as well.
When I watch protoss play it seems like they're too far behind on economy somehow, as if that isn't tuned correctly with the new changes. I don't know if Blizzard will bother with this, but they could easily tweak protoss to have more chronoboost at the start, or for zerg to have less larva at the start (afaik zerg starts with more larva while protoss still starts with a nexus with 0 energy?).
Imo everything that buffs protoss timing/attacks is a nono (and that includes changes in macromechanics). Only way to buff them is to alow protoss to tech cheaper and get more Immortals (and yes Colossus/Disruptors) out easier as well.
|
Marauder
Increased the number of attacks from 1 to 2, halved damage and bonus damage.
Does this mean that the marauder will become even stronger now with an attack upgrade lead?
Meaning that it will get +2 damage and +2 bonus damage per upgrade, instead of +1/+1?
This is very fear inducing.
|
your Country52797 Posts
On April 04 2015 02:05 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +
Marauder
Increased the number of attacks from 1 to 2, halved damage and bonus damage.
Does this mean that the marauder will become even stronger now with an attack upgrade lead? Meaning that it will get +2 damage and +2 bonus damage per upgrade, instead of +1/+1? This is very fear inducing.
They do the same amount of damage, split into two attacks. So they're actually weaker against armor.
|
On April 04 2015 02:07 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 02:05 kaluro wrote:
Marauder
Increased the number of attacks from 1 to 2, halved damage and bonus damage.
Does this mean that the marauder will become even stronger now with an attack upgrade lead? Meaning that it will get +2 damage and +2 bonus damage per upgrade, instead of +1/+1? This is very fear inducing. They do the same amount of damage, split into two attacks. So they're actually weaker against armor.
But that also means they receive double the attack damage from attack upgrades, since it applies twice.
HotS
a 0/0 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: (10+10)-1 = 19 damage
a 3/3 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: (13+13)-1 = 25 damage
a 3/3 marauder vs a 3/3 roach: (13+13)-4 = 22 damage
a 3/3 marauder vs a 3/8 ultralisk: (13+13)-8 = 18 damage
LotV
a 0/0 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: ((5+5)-1)*2 = 18 damage
a 3/3 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: ((8+8)-1)*2 = 30 damage
a 3/3 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: ((8+8)-4)*2 = 24 damage
a 3/3 marauder vs a 3/8 ultralisk: ((8+8)-8)*2 = 16 damage
So as you can see, doubling the attacks for half the damage, also doubles the upgrade potency.
|
On April 04 2015 01:59 Hider wrote:And the Stalker is already a core-unit as well. So per definition (regardless of which solution you prefer) adept is gonna be in competion with the Stalker. When it comes to deciding on -unit roles, the first thing you have to ask your self is: How can we add fun and unique micro/multitasking into the game? Once you discovered that, you try to create roles based on that, and that is likely to require some tweaks to the other protoss units as well. Show nested quote +
When I watch protoss play it seems like they're too far behind on economy somehow, as if that isn't tuned correctly with the new changes. I don't know if Blizzard will bother with this, but they could easily tweak protoss to have more chronoboost at the start, or for zerg to have less larva at the start (afaik zerg starts with more larva while protoss still starts with a nexus with 0 energy?).
Imo everything that buffs protoss timing/attacks is a nono (and that includes changes in macromechanics). Only way to buff them is to alow protoss to tech cheaper and get more Immortals (and yes Colossus/Disruptors) out easier as well.
But then you're resigning yourself to this idea of protoss being weaker in the early game, because warp gate is most impactful at that point. They get a quick boost in the mid-game with your proposed immortal change, or a bit later in the game with the new disruptor and warp prism without taking your example change into account. But they're still confined to more or less passively defending early game. I don't know if that's necessary with the new warp gate mechanics.
Note that in HotS protoss has energy for chronoboost by the 12 worker mark, which is not there in LotV. I think giving bonus energy at the start at least establishes parity with HotS and even more early game protoss buffs should be at least experimented with now that warp gate is so much weaker.
(pending the actual nexus starting energy in LotV, let me check a stream :p indeed it is 0 )
|
your Country52797 Posts
On April 04 2015 02:19 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 02:07 The_Templar wrote:On April 04 2015 02:05 kaluro wrote:
Marauder
Increased the number of attacks from 1 to 2, halved damage and bonus damage.
Does this mean that the marauder will become even stronger now with an attack upgrade lead? Meaning that it will get +2 damage and +2 bonus damage per upgrade, instead of +1/+1? This is very fear inducing. They do the same amount of damage, split into two attacks. So they're actually weaker against armor. But that also means they receive double the attack damage from attack upgrades, since it applies twice. HotS a 0/0 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: (10+10)-1 = 19 damage a 3/3 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: (13+13)-1 = 25 damage LotVa 0/0 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: ((5+5)-1)*2 = 18 damage a 3/3 marauder vs a 0/0 roach: ((8+8)-1)*2 = 30 damage So as you can see, doubling the attacks for half the damage, also doubles the upgrade potency.
That depends on whether a marauder gets +1 attack or +2 attack against armored units with upgrades.
|
On April 04 2015 02:23 The_Templar wrote:
That depends on whether a marauder gets +1 attack or +2 attack against armored units with upgrades.
Nowhere does it state that upgrade damage increase has been reduced. You also can't go any lower than +1 (and also +1 vs armored). So they will be weaker against ultralisks but much stronger against any other target once they have 3/3.
|
your Country52797 Posts
On April 04 2015 02:25 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 02:23 The_Templar wrote:
That depends on whether a marauder gets +1 attack or +2 attack against armored units with upgrades. Nowhere does it state that upgrade damage increase has been reduced. You also can't go any lower than +1 (and also +1 vs armored). So they will be weaker against ultralisks but much stronger against any other target once they have 3/3.
I don't have the beta, but I'm assuming the new marauder has 2 shots of 10 damage each against armor. Do upgrades increase both of these shots by two damage each?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
