EPTLotV Beta is Live + Patch 1.0 Notes - Page 13
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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ssg
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43764 Posts
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Going4Gold
United Kingdom67 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On April 01 2015 20:36 KeksX wrote: How would you implement something like that? I mean in the end it's an RTS and you can only do so many things with units before you reach mechanical limit. It sounds utopic and implementing "hardcounters"(should be "harder counters") like in BW seems much more practical. Okay, so I am gonna focus this post on the changes that relates to Air vs terran (mostly mech). I both discuss micro interactons and the roels the unit serves at various points in time (warning: Long post). Void Ray - Much more HP/Shield - Range reduced to 4 - Movement speed reduced to 1.9 with lower acceleration value - Upgrade at fleet beacon increases movement speed and acceleration of VR to 2.25 (and also makes Tempest faster). - Damage slightly reduced - Range slop reduced from 2 to 0.4 (this is the value that means you VR beam keeps targetting you even if you run out of the attack range) - Its activation ability deals more damage but duration much lower Effect - Marines can now micro by pulling back the targetted Marines vs the VR beam - VRs are the short-range/immobile air unit in the protoss arsenal (all other air units are relatively mobile). They will therefore synergize with the other air units during an engagement. - Void Rays, however, are pretty bad alone since they easily can be outmicroed. - Its activation ability now has more counterplay since the enemy is further extra punished for not moving away while its activated, but you can easier move out of range and go back once the duration has ended. - Needs 3 widow Mine shots to die, but VR cannot outrange them. Widow Mine - Starting movement increased to 3.1 (so it can catch up to Tempest: see below). - Projectile speed significantly reduced (especially vs air). - Splash damage AOE increased - Each armor attack upgrade increases the range of the Widow Mine attack by 1 - 80 HP - Burrow/unburrow duration reduced to 0.5 from 1 second Effect: - Playing against Widow Mines has more counterplay since you can split after the Mine has gone off (due to projectile being alot slower) - Moreover - due to the extra countermicro, you are punished slightly further if you do not split at all. - Late game it has a lot more utility due to its higher range which means you can no longer a-move over mines in the late game with any compositions. (note that zealots here receives ability to drag mines alot better and Colossus does not have over 9 range). - There is more counterplay against an enemy that tries to drag mines as you can easier unburrow and burrow them. Viking - 7.5 range - Much faster transformation between ground and air. - In ground mode: 10 range, very slow movement speed, less HP - More damage vs light and less damage vs armored (Collosus balanced around not being vulnerable to AA FYI) - Moving shot - 2.65 movement speed - Upgrade at techlab that increases movement speed to 3.4 (and it also increases the movement speed of Banshee's). Effect: - Viking deals more damage vs Orace/Phoenix but both are faster and can therefore abuse mobility (at least in the early/early midgame). - Void Rays can be kited but Vikings deal very low damage to them - Viking worse vs Carrier/Tempest which opens up a role for the Thor (see below). - Vikings better vs Mutalisks. Can kite but not infinitively, even w/ movement speed upgrade (but okay, this was intended to be focussed on PvT). - Vikings are not the most cost-effective unit, but still do decently and has lots of utility in terms of harass play. You can use your hellbats as meat shield when harassing and have Vikings as the damage dealer in the back. Thor - Splash damage nerfed and instead its AOE size has been increased (overall this is a nerf unless the enemy heavily masses light air units). - AA vs armored mode is maintained and heavily buffed - Upgrade at Factory tech lab that makes it possbible to transform instantly between the two modes. - 0 damage point (can attack without needing to stand still for a while). Effect: - Weak vs Oracles in low numbers or against a protoss player that splits up his Oracles. - The Thor is now the cost-effective unit you want vs Tempest and Carriers. - Thors are still useful as a support vs Mutalisks, and it could have a similar role as Irradiate in BW in terms of keeping the zerg in check so he doesn't overmass Mutalisks - Due to it having 0 damage point and higher range in AA vs light, it's also decent for drop harass. Oracle - 6 range - Slightly less shield/HP - 4 movement speed - 50% less DPS vs light - Lower atttack speed - Moving shot (that implies max turn rate, no damage point) - Lower energy cost for activing pulsor beam (or no energy cost at all). Effect: - 4 marines > 1 oracle if amoved, but Oracles can move in and out for moving shot to kill alot more Marines. Oracles also kills workers alot shower. - Widow Mine oneshots it, but Oracle can outrange Widow mine and detect it. Tempest: - Can be build from tier 2 - Starting movement speed : 2. - Speed upgrade at Fleet beacon increases movement speed to 2.75 - Range = 8 - 0 damage point (so it can attack and move back more easily) - No extra damage vs massive - Attack speed significantly increased (much higher DPS) Effect - Due to being tier 2, you can get the them for early harass purposes. Marines can be kited, but will slowly catch up (so don't overextend) - Synergizes with Oracles as it can outrange Turrets which makes your Oracle better at harassing. - Trades evenly w/ Vikings. So getting Vikings as a soft counter is an option, but only if the terran takes advantage of the Vikings harass potential. However, if the toss has VRs to soak up the damage, the toss wins the engagement (but then you become even less mobile). - Late game this is a strong harass option vs ground-based mech since Thors are quite immobile and turret lines can be broken. - In the early game, Widow Mines will try to catch up to the Tempests and burrow under them. Since Tempests (without speed upgrade) are slow, WMs will relatively quickly catch up, so be careful not to overextend here. On the other hand, you can shoot and kite better. Carrier - HP of each interceptor has been reduced significantly and its balanced around that - The density of each interceptor has been increased (so they are more vulnerable to splash). - Carrier now has up to 12 interceptors, but only starts with 8. - Range increased to 9.5 - The time it takes for interceptors to go off has been reduced significantly. - Acceleration increased to be similar to movement speed (1.93 roughly). Effect: - Thors are marginally cost-effective vs Carriers if they focus fire (while Carriers move back), but can become even more effective if you pull back injured Thors and transform them into splash-mode and use them to kill interceptors from a safe distance. - Vikings < Carriers, but are more mobiile - Widow Mines can be useful vs interceptor splash, but on the other hand Carriers can outrange +3 Mines, and if you have the bank to trade interceptors for Widow Mines, this is doable as protoss. - Is less mobile than the Tempest (after speed upgrade) but overall stronger in most engagements. TLDR; So lots of changes and I didn't even discuss implications for other matchups. But it should be possible to see that none of the units mentioned here sucks against either unit. Thor? Yeh it can hold off light Oracle harass, but it's not cost efficient if the toss micros well. So you will often need need to repair it once Oracles attack it, which can be costly. Therefore it is a good idea to mix in Marines along with the Thor. Or you could get a Viking, but a Viking is kinda immobile and can only chase the Oracle away. That's at least until you have speed upgrade and then you can start to apply pressure to the enemy through the ground-transformation Widow Mine: An option vs all protoss air units, but all of them also has counterplay against it (except VR that just can tank it). Wanna go for a strong protoss air army that can win engagements? Ok then you probably wanna get VRs and Tempests and mix in Carriers later game and perhaps an Oracle for detection. Wanna go for a mobile harass oriented toss air unit? Ok then you go Oracle w/ some Phoenix. If he responds by getting thors, and you don't feel confident in further relying on mobility, then you can start to mix in some VRs and use that activation beam on the Thor. The terran can then micro by transforming into the AA vs armored-mode and either kill the VR of move out of the beam-range (since VRs are slower than Thors in AA vs armored-mode). So lots of options here, and so many opportunites for micro, and it's kinda why I see so many missed opportunites for Blizzard here. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
On April 01 2015 21:58 TurboMaN wrote: I predict that Koreans will dominate LotV way more than HotS (maybe even like they did in BW) because the new economy gives you a large bank of mins in a just a couple of mins. Only Koreans master the multitasking needed to spend mins and fight at the same time. On the other hand the 12 starting workers will lead to weaker players play solely strong allins. It will be interesting if Blizzard can or will fix this with upcoming patches. indeed, last chance, blizzard, last one  | ||
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pieroog
Poland146 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On April 01 2015 21:58 TurboMaN wrote: I predict that Koreans will dominate LotV way more than HotS (maybe even like they did in BW) because the new economy gives you a large bank of mins in a just a couple of minutes. Only Koreans master the multitasking needed to spend mins and fight at the same time. On the other hand the 12 starting workers will lead to weaker players using almost always allins to win. It will be interesting if Blizzard can or will fix this with upcoming patches. I'm confident that foreigners will be able to at least keep their level relative to koreans, remember a lot of the macro is easier than it was in BW still, just the amount you have to build is getting bigger practically. @Hider: Thanks for that post, I'll address it once I have time to thoroughly read it. A little stressed at work atm! | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
I genuinely wish there would be an option to customize range indicators. | ||
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Yamato
United States33 Posts
-Void Ray (only if charge is activated and the cyclones don't micro back) -Immortals -Lurkers (again if not micro'd back) Has anyone figured out how to counter mass cyclone compositions? Seems like as Protoss you would have to go mass immortal, but what about Zerg? | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On April 01 2015 22:01 pieroog wrote: 40% Adrenal Glands, Marauder double attack and 20% Colossus' dmg reduction changes are very huge! Ultras with 8 armor is also quite big change, Infestor getting Neural Parasite back to 9 range is amazing. But yeah, can't wait to see Cracklings eating things like they did in BW... Blizzard has finally realized that they need to be more than a cannon fodder later in the game. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On April 01 2015 22:12 Yamato wrote: I did some playing around in the unit tester - mass cyclone beats just about everything - zerglings, marauders, etc., often without any micro required. A few things it didn't beat: -Void Ray (only if charge is activated and the cyclones don't micro back) -Immortals -Lurkers (again if not micro'd back) Has anyone figured out how to counter mass cyclone compositions? Seems like as Protoss you would have to go mass immortal, but what about Zerg? I don't get why immortals are so good against cyclones. From what I gathered Incontrol chose double robo immortals to beat cyclones and did so pretty convincingly. Can someone explain what makes that slow relatively short range unit that good against the crazy kiter ? | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On April 01 2015 22:12 Yamato wrote: I did some playing around in the unit tester - mass cyclone beats just about everything - zerglings, marauders, etc., often without any micro required. A few things it didn't beat: -Void Ray (only if charge is activated and the cyclones don't micro back) -Immortals -Lurkers (again if not micro'd back) Has anyone figured out how to counter mass cyclone compositions? Seems like as Protoss you would have to go mass immortal, but what about Zerg? Fungals beat them pretty badly though, coupled with any combination of fast units. | ||
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Yamato
United States33 Posts
On April 01 2015 22:14 Ramiz1989 wrote: Fungals beat them pretty badly though, coupled with any combination of fast units. That makes sense in small numbers, but when I was testing in mass the cyclones didn't need to micro at all - they could beat zerglings, roaches, hydras, ravagers, mutas, etc. straight up. The only one they didn't beat other than lurkers was mass baneling. | ||
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IeZaeL
Italy991 Posts
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
On April 01 2015 22:42 IeZaeL wrote: Getting errors while trying to log-in. Fuck me really. Log out and log in via battle.net app | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3327 Posts
On April 01 2015 22:03 KeksX wrote: I'm confident that foreigners will be able to at least keep their level relative to koreans, remember a lot of the macro is easier than it was in BW still, just the amount you have to build is getting bigger practically. As it's looking, it seems like LotV could become an even harder game than BW. It still needs time to develop though, one of the reasons BW got hard is because of 12+ years of learning and mastering the game. Foreigners doing reasonably well in SC2 also has something to do with the foreign scene being a lot stronger, imagine if the entire EU scene was playing WC4 that would have a large impact on how well we'd do. | ||
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