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On April 01 2015 20:43 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:07 Destructicon wrote:I don't understand the marauder change at all, it completely kills bio, which is a fun and interesting style right now, very skill intensive to play and counter. + Show Spoiler +
With this change bio doesn't have any counter to ultralisks.
Now the problem with most terran tech trees, you can't really tech switch between them because of the armor upgrades and infrastructure. Hence bio needs to have a self contained reliable counter to ultralisks. Hence the marauder.
Now when you nerf their anti-armor option you just kill bio playstyle outright.
For people saying you need to introduce cyclones into the mix to counter ultralisks, there is one huge problem with that, its not possible to micro both cyclones and bio optimally to kill ultralisks, you won't have the APM to do both, or even if its possible only Maru will be able to do it, leaving everyone else struggling.
Now say it is actually possible to micro both bio and cyclones optimally to split and kite, well you run into a new problem. It takes so long for the combined firepower of cyclones and marauders to kill ultralisks that you can't actually take a straight on fight, which means every time ultralisks come attacking a base you have to probably sack it, since there is no way you can save it.
Lastly, imagine what happens when the zerg also mixes in infestors.
So yeah, this is far from the best change blizzard has ever done, its up there as one of the worst.
If ultralisks are meant to be the tanks then nerf their damage, like they should do nearly no damage with how much they can tank now. Or if they want to keep their damage like this, then revert the marauder change, ultras can keep the extra armor as long as the marauder change is reverted.
4M was always bad for SC2. Its one compo for everything, harass, early game, mid game, late game. No strategic diversity. Just micro micro micro. I get it, micro-fans like it, but it isn't what strategy game should be about.
SK terran was the same way. And it was just fine, albeit science vessels are much fun than thors. It also had more synergy with the guerrilla style tactics of bio play as well.
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Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ?
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On April 01 2015 20:45 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:43 saddaromma wrote:On April 01 2015 20:07 Destructicon wrote:I don't understand the marauder change at all, it completely kills bio, which is a fun and interesting style right now, very skill intensive to play and counter. + Show Spoiler +
With this change bio doesn't have any counter to ultralisks.
Now the problem with most terran tech trees, you can't really tech switch between them because of the armor upgrades and infrastructure. Hence bio needs to have a self contained reliable counter to ultralisks. Hence the marauder.
Now when you nerf their anti-armor option you just kill bio playstyle outright.
For people saying you need to introduce cyclones into the mix to counter ultralisks, there is one huge problem with that, its not possible to micro both cyclones and bio optimally to kill ultralisks, you won't have the APM to do both, or even if its possible only Maru will be able to do it, leaving everyone else struggling.
Now say it is actually possible to micro both bio and cyclones optimally to split and kite, well you run into a new problem. It takes so long for the combined firepower of cyclones and marauders to kill ultralisks that you can't actually take a straight on fight, which means every time ultralisks come attacking a base you have to probably sack it, since there is no way you can save it.
Lastly, imagine what happens when the zerg also mixes in infestors.
So yeah, this is far from the best change blizzard has ever done, its up there as one of the worst.
If ultralisks are meant to be the tanks then nerf their damage, like they should do nearly no damage with how much they can tank now. Or if they want to keep their damage like this, then revert the marauder change, ultras can keep the extra armor as long as the marauder change is reverted.
4M was always bad for SC2. Its one compo for everything, harass, early game, mid game, late game. No strategic diversity. Just micro micro micro. I get it, micro-fans like it, but it isn't what strategy game should be about. SK terran was the same way. And it was just fine, albeit science vessels are much fun than thors.
Vessels were far more pivotal. Unlike in sc2 where any additional unit is just optional.
Plus, tanks played major role too.
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i would like to see a disruptor attacking air units if a phoenix lift it before explosion, would be epic to watch.
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20% dmg nerf on colo? wtf? Might as well delete it.
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On April 01 2015 20:50 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:45 royalroadweed wrote:On April 01 2015 20:43 saddaromma wrote:On April 01 2015 20:07 Destructicon wrote:I don't understand the marauder change at all, it completely kills bio, which is a fun and interesting style right now, very skill intensive to play and counter. + Show Spoiler +
With this change bio doesn't have any counter to ultralisks.
Now the problem with most terran tech trees, you can't really tech switch between them because of the armor upgrades and infrastructure. Hence bio needs to have a self contained reliable counter to ultralisks. Hence the marauder.
Now when you nerf their anti-armor option you just kill bio playstyle outright.
For people saying you need to introduce cyclones into the mix to counter ultralisks, there is one huge problem with that, its not possible to micro both cyclones and bio optimally to kill ultralisks, you won't have the APM to do both, or even if its possible only Maru will be able to do it, leaving everyone else struggling.
Now say it is actually possible to micro both bio and cyclones optimally to split and kite, well you run into a new problem. It takes so long for the combined firepower of cyclones and marauders to kill ultralisks that you can't actually take a straight on fight, which means every time ultralisks come attacking a base you have to probably sack it, since there is no way you can save it.
Lastly, imagine what happens when the zerg also mixes in infestors.
So yeah, this is far from the best change blizzard has ever done, its up there as one of the worst.
If ultralisks are meant to be the tanks then nerf their damage, like they should do nearly no damage with how much they can tank now. Or if they want to keep their damage like this, then revert the marauder change, ultras can keep the extra armor as long as the marauder change is reverted.
4M was always bad for SC2. Its one compo for everything, harass, early game, mid game, late game. No strategic diversity. Just micro micro micro. I get it, micro-fans like it, but it isn't what strategy game should be about. SK terran was the same way. And it was just fine, albeit science vessels are much fun than thors. Vessels were far more pivotal. Unlike in sc2 where any additional unit is just optional. Plus, tanks played major role too.
SK terran is a tank less style. In sc2 when the muta cloud reaches a certain level you kind of have to add in thors.
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On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ?
YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull
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On April 01 2015 20:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ? YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull
I saw a few games where rushing some adepts shut down reaper expands pretty hard, but other than that the unit feels quite underwhelming, borderline useless. I haven't played with it myself ofc, that's just my impression from watching streams.
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On April 01 2015 20:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ? YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull I saw a few games where rushing some adepts shut down reaper expands pretty hard, but other than that the unit feels quite underwhelming, borderline useless. I haven't played with it myself ofc, that's just my impression from watching streams.
Yeah i got that same impression (don't have the beta either though)
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Anyone know how the new economy affected reaper builds?
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On April 01 2015 20:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ? YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull I saw a few games where rushing some adepts shut down reaper expands pretty hard, but other than that the unit feels quite underwhelming, borderline useless. I haven't played with it myself ofc, that's just my impression from watching streams.
Nathanias said you pretty much have to open with a quick cyclone in TvP because of adepts.
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So far I really hate warp prism long range pick up too. Making an already strong harass tool even stronger for little to no reason. I'm more OK with siege tanks picked up, though I think they should lose siege mode when picked up.
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On April 01 2015 21:02 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 01 2015 20:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ? YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull I saw a few games where rushing some adepts shut down reaper expands pretty hard, but other than that the unit feels quite underwhelming, borderline useless. I haven't played with it myself ofc, that's just my impression from watching streams. Nathanias said you pretty much have to open with a quick cyclone in TvP because of adepts.
Yeah people seem to systematically wall their main ramp while getting a quick cyclone. It's not like a quick cyclone isn't a good thing to get early game though.
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Italy12248 Posts
On April 01 2015 20:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ? YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull I saw a few games where rushing some adepts shut down reaper expands pretty hard, but other than that the unit feels quite underwhelming, borderline useless. I haven't played with it myself ofc, that's just my impression from watching streams.
It's strong pvp, awful in pvz, only good vs reaper expand in pvt
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On April 01 2015 21:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:
So far I really hate warp prism long range pick up too. Making an already strong harass tool even stronger for little to no reason. I'm more OK with siege tanks picked up, though I think they should lose siege mode when picked up.
Yep like in starbow. If they wanted to increase its mobility they could have increased movement speed in tank mode and decreased the unsiege time. To me the unit lost its identity and character. Its no longer a siege tank, its a reaver.
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On April 01 2015 21:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 21:02 Elentos wrote:On April 01 2015 20:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 01 2015 20:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ? YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull I saw a few games where rushing some adepts shut down reaper expands pretty hard, but other than that the unit feels quite underwhelming, borderline useless. I haven't played with it myself ofc, that's just my impression from watching streams. Nathanias said you pretty much have to open with a quick cyclone in TvP because of adepts. Yeah people seem to systematically wall their main ramp while getting a quick cyclone. It's not like a quick cyclone isn't a good thing to get early game though.
Yeah, but I also haven't seen him transition into bio from that. He plays hellion/cyclone heavy mech TvP mostly, at least atm.
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On April 01 2015 20:45 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:43 saddaromma wrote:On April 01 2015 20:07 Destructicon wrote:I don't understand the marauder change at all, it completely kills bio, which is a fun and interesting style right now, very skill intensive to play and counter. + Show Spoiler +
With this change bio doesn't have any counter to ultralisks.
Now the problem with most terran tech trees, you can't really tech switch between them because of the armor upgrades and infrastructure. Hence bio needs to have a self contained reliable counter to ultralisks. Hence the marauder.
Now when you nerf their anti-armor option you just kill bio playstyle outright.
For people saying you need to introduce cyclones into the mix to counter ultralisks, there is one huge problem with that, its not possible to micro both cyclones and bio optimally to kill ultralisks, you won't have the APM to do both, or even if its possible only Maru will be able to do it, leaving everyone else struggling.
Now say it is actually possible to micro both bio and cyclones optimally to split and kite, well you run into a new problem. It takes so long for the combined firepower of cyclones and marauders to kill ultralisks that you can't actually take a straight on fight, which means every time ultralisks come attacking a base you have to probably sack it, since there is no way you can save it.
Lastly, imagine what happens when the zerg also mixes in infestors.
So yeah, this is far from the best change blizzard has ever done, its up there as one of the worst.
If ultralisks are meant to be the tanks then nerf their damage, like they should do nearly no damage with how much they can tank now. Or if they want to keep their damage like this, then revert the marauder change, ultras can keep the extra armor as long as the marauder change is reverted.
4M was always bad for SC2. Its one compo for everything, harass, early game, mid game, late game. No strategic diversity. Just micro micro micro. I get it, micro-fans like it, but it isn't what strategy game should be about. SK terran was the same way. And it was just fine, albeit science vessels are much fun than thors. It also had more synergy with the guerrilla style tactics of bio play as well.
Though SK Terran is quite map+game dependent if you want to go beyond the mid game with NaDa style pure medic marine science vessels which usually gets rolled over by the late game unless if you have a very nice advantage denying gas against zerg's tech transition to ultralisks and other late game units which literally roll through pure bio, even with tank support.
Though terran is extremely flexible thus they could do multiple types of mixed bio-mech/star port compositions I.e Valkyrie opening, wraiths, or you can open with vultures combined with marines then transition to usual mech play, open up with mech, or do a mass transition to mech from bio once map control is gained through use of early bio pressure, or do a weird switch from mech to bio (I think it was a leta vs jaedong game which showcased that) technically you could go with battle cruisers like feh vs savior lol. Iloveoov once said iirc that the entire zerg strategy is dictated on what the terran does with factories (Or was it the timing of the factories?).
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On April 01 2015 21:04 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 01 2015 20:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ? YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull I saw a few games where rushing some adepts shut down reaper expands pretty hard, but other than that the unit feels quite underwhelming, borderline useless. I haven't played with it myself ofc, that's just my impression from watching streams. It's strong pvp, awful in pvz, only good vs reaper expand in pvt
Can you scout reliably with the shade in PvP ?
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Anyone has figured out the true successor to the Best Build of Starcraft, the proxy 2 rax?
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Italy12248 Posts
On April 01 2015 21:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 21:04 Teoita wrote:On April 01 2015 20:55 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 01 2015 20:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 01 2015 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Anyone else thinking the adept would feel more interesting if the teleport time was a bit shorter ? YES, so far the adept didn't look very usefull I saw a few games where rushing some adepts shut down reaper expands pretty hard, but other than that the unit feels quite underwhelming, borderline useless. I haven't played with it myself ofc, that's just my impression from watching streams. It's strong pvp, awful in pvz, only good vs reaper expand in pvt Can you scout reliably with the shade in PvP ?
You can reliably rush 2-4 (think of the old double gate before cor stalker builds) and kill like 5 probes with them. The hilarious part is when your opponent does the same.
So yeah, you can get in his base and see what he's up to >.>
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EPT
