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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 29 2017 23:42 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2017 23:31 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Like LL or Reddit is any better ... I never quite got this response. You can't excuse people being paid to do a job doing it poorly by the fact that randoms that aren't paid to do it are not good at giving suggestions or changes. If that was the case then you could never ever criticize anyone at their job since there will always be someone worse at it that isn't being employed to do it.
Oh I agree. But there's a lot of folks here and on Reddit that always say "well it's obvious that X Y and Z should have been done", when in reality their suggestions are much worse. Janna was a major fuckup this patch but hardly representative.
On September 30 2017 00:14 VayneAuthority wrote:
The main problem with Riot's balance team is that it is a group of low elo people that collect data basically. What does this mean?
The problem with the balance team is exactly the opposite problem. What matters is the perception of balance, rather than actual balance, and the community's perception of balance is ridiculously skewed by high-elo streamers and pro players.
For example, Ardent Censer has been statistically OP for literally over a year. Like over a year ago I was complaining about how it was suffering from Cloud Drake syndrome. But literally no one used it. In fact Riot kept buffing it until some streamer finally spilled the beans, and then all of a sudden it became a problem. I mean, items don't just go from useless to "so OP Kog'Maw has to start Relic Shield". A support item is probably OP well before it reaches that point.
This Righteous Glory nerf proves exactly my point. No streamer or pro player thinks it's a problem right now, so we make fun of Riot for fixing it. When in reality it's a huge problem on a ton of champions. On Jungle Maokai, for instance, the winrate difference between second item Righteous Glory and Randuin's, two ostensibly similar items, is over 10%. That's the same gap in winrate between pre-hotfix Janna and Lux support. Not rushing RG is worse on Maokai than taking Fervor as your keystone.
My guess is that Abyssal Mask is next up on the list as stealth OP.
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The data collection vs playing thing is actually really interesting point I hadn't thought of but seems pretty accurate when you think about it. As a whole I like the riot balance team to an extent I respect, because it makes their job a lot harder, that they try to maintain champion identity.
My only real complaint is a difference in philosophy of patch light often or patch big infrequent. Hotfix while on bi weekly patching is almost always too much.
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People didn't use ardent censer because things like stoneborn pact didn't exist and because things like redemption/lethality were more broken. Saying stuff like ardent has been op for over a year is disingenous, it might have been a decent item but not to the level it has been recently.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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On September 30 2017 03:18 Ansibled wrote:
People didn't use ardent censer because things like stoneborn pact didn't exist and because items like redemption were more broken. Saying stuff like ardent has been op for over a year is disingenous, it might have been a decent item but not to the level it has been recently.
It was more that it was never given a chance. Redemption and Locket provide very visible effects. It doesn't take a genius to see a giant circular heal or a massive shield. The effects of Censer is a lot more subtle in comparison. It was simply crowded out as an option. Why/when would you build Censer when it would come after/instead of the other two?
I'm pretty sure if they reverted the changes to these 3 items, Ardent would have more of a place in the support itemization meta.
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I agree ardent was already very powerful when I was playing sona last season, my usually low gold friend after1year without playing literally 10-0d placement and entered plat5 with under 25 games spamming sona with censer after locket every single game
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Actually the RG nerf is precisely a look at why Riot's balance team is incompetent. If things like jungle maokai and sejuani and rammus are too strong then fucking nerf them. Meanwhile I'm just over here trying to play skarner who goes first item RG and is like a tier 3 jungler and he gets a fucking massive nerf thanks to their shit balance team.
I try to play nice when I post here but some people are just so clueless it's impossible. It's better to just stay away.
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The balance team is ok. The big problem is I feel like there is a Chinese wall between balance and design at riot, so whenever the design people have a "cool new idea" balance doesn't seem to get to see it until its too late. Like the urgot rework, balancing that guy is a full time job, there's no way anyone on the balance team have that exploding let's feature an ok.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote:
Actually the RG nerf is precisely a look at why Riot's balance team is incompetent. If things like jungle maokai and sejuani and rammus are too strong then fucking nerf them. Meanwhile I'm just over here trying to play skarner who goes first item RG and is like a tier 3 jungler and he gets a fucking massive nerf thanks to their shit balance team.
I try to play nice when I post here but some people are just so clueless it's impossible. It's better to just stay away.
Not to like, trigger you or anything, but the problem is obviously not with Maokai. Many champions have really distorted win graphs with RG. Nasus, Olaf, Darius, Cho'Gath, Singed - it turns out that if cheap mobility is OP you are really going to fuck balance for champions designed to be kited. Shit there's even some high elo Korean Kog'Maw player building it.
Also
On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote:
like a tier 3 jungler and he gets a fucking massive nerf thanks to their shit balance team. On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote:
fucking massive nerf thanks to their shit balance team. On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote:
fucking massive nerf ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ApK9lix.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ofpWf96.jpg)
On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote:
just so clueless it's impossible
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yes because a winrate going up due to a core item nerf and no buffs clearly equals a buff XD I've skated the word before, but you are an actual autistic person.
GI would fit in well with the balance team, silver/gold player that thinks he knows anything
User was warned for this post
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On September 30 2017 05:23 VayneAuthority wrote:
yes because a winrate going up due to a core item nerf and no buffs clearly equals a buff XD I've skated the word before, but you are an actual autistic person.
GI would fit in well with the balance team, silver/gold player that thinks he knows anything
I don't think that's at all what he's saying. If someone gets stronger even after nerfing them it most likely implies that the other stuff they doing to the game made him stronger and without any nerfs he'd be overtuned. So nerfing preemptively isn't a totally terrible idea.
I get you two have this weird beef going on but lets cool it with the raging insults that don't add anything to the discussion.
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Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
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his playrate is .63% this patch lmao
yeah i dont think those winrates mean anything
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote:
Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
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On September 30 2017 09:51 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote:
Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs. I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs". All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction. And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance. But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 30 2017 09:58 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 09:51 GrandInquisitor wrote:On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote:
Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs. I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs". All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction. And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance. But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then. How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/erN37kJ.png)
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On September 30 2017 10:02 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 09:58 nafta wrote:On September 30 2017 09:51 GrandInquisitor wrote:On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote:
Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs. I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs". All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction. And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance. But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then. How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%). Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam
It works perfectly. He isn't that strong since literally nobody bans him.
He is at 50.98% with 0.60% play rate which means even less.
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On September 30 2017 10:20 JimmiC wrote:
Wouldn't ban rate be a better indicator of perceived power rather then actual strength?
People don't ban things because of their power they ban them because they don't like playing with or against them there's just an overlap.
Zed and Yasuo are commonly banned and not particularly good.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 30 2017 10:24 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 10:02 GrandInquisitor wrote:On September 30 2017 09:58 nafta wrote:On September 30 2017 09:51 GrandInquisitor wrote:On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote:
Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs. I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs". All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction. And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance. But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then. How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%). Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam It works perfectly. He isn't that strong since literally nobody bans him. He is at 50.98% with 0.60% play rate which means even less.
No one bans him now, but no one banned him before either. The point is whether the patch was a "massive fucking nerf". That's not gonna be something you can tell from changes in the ban rate, not when there's apparently only one guy on the server banning Skarner.
Same as to the play rate. Nobody plays Skarner. We all know that. But that was true pre-patch and post-patch. That doesn't mean anything as to whether he got nerfed. The only data you have is winrate data, and even though it has a low sample size, the important point is that it's consistent between patches.
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EPT
