Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Weird kit, the charm is interesting but the rest feels unnecessarily complicated. Her ult is probably a huge noob trap.
That awkard time between patch notes release and NeoIllusions making a new thread on LL: you want to post something, but you know nobody is going to read it because the old thread will be closed soon.
Evelynn certainly feels more thematic now with the charm mechanic. She also now shifts from the pre-6 jungler team to the post-6 jungler team, given how strong her level 6 spike is now.
On September 27 2017 04:40 Sent. wrote: That awkard time between patch notes release and NeoIllusions making a new thread on LL: you want to post something, but you know nobody is going to read it because the old thread will be closed soon.
Alternatively, it's the opportunity to make really odd statements, like how Riot should get rid of smite steals because they're "cheap" and, I guess, late game objective fights are just too exciting for some of us.
New Eve ult seems awkward. If you use it to damage someone, you end up disengaging from them. It looks to be an execute ability that you have to calculate very carefully because if you mess up they're guaranteed to get away. Very different to say Kayn who ults you and then has the ability to finish you off afterwards if he needs to.
Her ganks look pretty dope strong though, even if they're projected in advance.
On September 27 2017 04:42 GrandInquisitor wrote: Evelynn certainly feels more thematic now with the charm mechanic. She also now shifts from the pre-6 jungler team to the post-6 jungler team, given how strong her level 6 spike is now.
On September 27 2017 04:40 Sent. wrote: That awkard time between patch notes release and NeoIllusions making a new thread on LL: you want to post something, but you know nobody is going to read it because the old thread will be closed soon.
Alternatively, it's the opportunity to make really odd statements, like how Riot should get rid of smite steals because they're "cheap" and, I guess, late game objective fights are just too exciting for some of us.
Who's that genius that hates smite steals? Terrible mechanic that has no place in a competitive game
On September 27 2017 04:40 Sent. wrote: That awkard time between patch notes release and NeoIllusions making a new thread on LL: you want to post something, but you know nobody is going to read it because the old thread will be closed soon.
He used to be faster. Cue passion memes.
Stacked Guinsoo's is dumb, and Riot decided to make it so tanks have huge bursts of shields/bonus health rather than being generically resilient, so you can't chunk them out meaningfully then retreat, and the start of fights is often a slugfest is a squishy doesn't get caught, which I assume gives more time to stack Guinsoo's effect and then annihilate people as soon as the temporary buff expires.
That Xin update is weird, they're shitting pretty hard on both his damage and stickiness (q basically needs 260 bonus AD to deal as much damage as before, late game, and he loses ArPen), is the ult worth it?
Why don't they just make Eve's ult like Zed's and make the blink optional (reactivate to blink back)? Really hate forced displacements on execute abilities.
On September 27 2017 04:40 Sent. wrote: That awkard time between patch notes release and NeoIllusions making a new thread on LL: you want to post something, but you know nobody is going to read it because the old thread will be closed soon.
He used to be faster. Cue passion memes.
Stacked Guinsoo's is dumb, and Riot decided to make it so tanks have huge bursts of shields/bonus health rather than being generically resilient, so you can't chunk them out meaningfully then retreat, and the start of fights is often a slugfest is a squishy doesn't get caught, which I assume gives more time to stack Guinsoo's effect and then annihilate people as soon as the temporary buff expires.
Patch notes haven't even been out an hour... this is pretty par on course for me, for the past 3-4 years. Alaric, I am disappoint.
Also, I've never implemented a no repost policy on LL. It's literally never been an issue. So like what's been echoed so far, if I happen to cut your post/conversation short due to new thread, please excuse me and just copy over and carry on your talks. ezpz.
Look, with RWARWARWA, Smash and other old guys gone, I'm basically old guard here, veteran and all. I remember the Neo from before 4 years ago, I was here when Chiharu's murder was investigated, I know how you used to be. Please, Neo, don't tell me you've forgotten. Don't twist the knife.
On September 27 2017 04:40 Sent. wrote: That awkard time between patch notes release and NeoIllusions making a new thread on LL: you want to post something, but you know nobody is going to read it because the old thread will be closed soon.
He used to be faster. Cue passion memes.
Stacked Guinsoo's is dumb, and Riot decided to make it so tanks have huge bursts of shields/bonus health rather than being generically resilient, so you can't chunk them out meaningfully then retreat, and the start of fights is often a slugfest is a squishy doesn't get caught, which I assume gives more time to stack Guinsoo's effect and then annihilate people as soon as the temporary buff expires.
That Xin update is weird, they're shitting pretty hard on both his damage and stickiness (q basically needs 260 bonus AD to deal as much damage as before, late game, and he loses ArPen), is the ult worth it?
Oh, someone read my post. Everyone trying their best to prove they read the previous thread.
I agree with the burst tankiness, can see why Guinsoo would fit in with that. Imo Stoneplate should not be a staple tank pick, there needs to be a better downside on it other than just cutting damage. As it is now, the item elevates Cho and J4 to top tier picks because their mechanics allow them to circumvent the downside which other champs can't do. besides the fact it's incredibly frustrating when a Glory Cho runs at you, AA you a few times, hits Stoneplate and then laughs as you try to damage him and then ults you.
The lack of crit builds in bot lane just seems very unnatural.
Eve looks interesting, don't know if good or bad but has some interesting stuff going on. Her skins all look pretty bad compared to base skin though. Expected a lot more from the visual rework there.
I thought tango eve looks great, what's there to not like? It even gets rid of the base's dopey hairstyle that looks like a mix between vegeta and whipped cream.
On September 27 2017 05:55 phyvo wrote: I thought tango eve looks great, what's there to not like? It even gets rid of the base's dopey hairstyle that looks like a mix between vegeta and whipped cream.
I agree with the new Tango Eve being better. Safecracker is a push since all they did was add the tentacles. Shadow walker looks better to me. Masquerade seems like the old hair was a bit more fun but I like the new outfit.
On September 27 2017 04:40 Sent. wrote: That awkard time between patch notes release and NeoIllusions making a new thread on LL: you want to post something, but you know nobody is going to read it because the old thread will be closed soon.
He used to be faster. Cue passion memes.
Stacked Guinsoo's is dumb, and Riot decided to make it so tanks have huge bursts of shields/bonus health rather than being generically resilient, so you can't chunk them out meaningfully then retreat, and the start of fights is often a slugfest is a squishy doesn't get caught, which I assume gives more time to stack Guinsoo's effect and then annihilate people as soon as the temporary buff expires.
That Xin update is weird, they're shitting pretty hard on both his damage and stickiness (q basically needs 260 bonus AD to deal as much damage as before, late game, and he loses ArPen), is the ult worth it?
They gave him an actual ability on W to make up for it, the attack speed and spearheal was moved to passive and E, he should do way more damage now. Butchering the slow duration seems a bit too much, but I think it's where they would look first to increase should he turn out too weak as a jungler.
Id give the Eve remake a 3-4/10. They smartly made stealth only post-6, which means its value in soloQ vs. pro is nearly the same, on the other hand they made her regular abilities mediocre, and ult terrible (unless they do OP amounts of damage), so I don't see how the kit will work cohesively. I think that they actually made her into a tank accidentally with the % health damage and execute. Unless she is overtuned, I don't see her working as an assassin with this kit.
On September 27 2017 15:30 cLutZ wrote: Id give the Eve remake a 3-4/10. They smartly made stealth only post-6, which means its value in soloQ vs. pro is nearly the same, on the other hand they made her regular abilities mediocre, and ult terrible (unless they do OP amounts of damage), so I don't see how the kit will work cohesively. I think that they actually made her into a tank accidentally with the % health damage and execute. Unless she is overtuned, I don't see her working as an assassin with this kit.
I mean in one of the highlight videos, it's literally going in, almost killing a carry, and then flash ulting ou at no health. Not much different than the one now apart from the get out thing.
On September 27 2017 05:06 Alaric wrote: Look, with RWARWARWA, Smash and other old guys gone, I'm basically old guard here, veteran and all. I remember the Neo from before 4 years ago, I was here when Chiharu's murder was investigated, I know how you used to be. Please, Neo, don't tell me you've forgotten. Don't twist the knife
there's still a few other people I remember from way back. IIRC I started league late season 1? And started posting on TL then.
I play a lot fewer games than I used to(and I play other things too), and growing old is hard . Too many responsibilities. Loss of free time really hurts.
I've still read every GD post in the last however long it's been, so I just lurk more.
On September 27 2017 15:30 cLutZ wrote: Id give the Eve remake a 3-4/10. They smartly made stealth only post-6, which means its value in soloQ vs. pro is nearly the same, on the other hand they made her regular abilities mediocre, and ult terrible (unless they do OP amounts of damage), so I don't see how the kit will work cohesively. I think that they actually made her into a tank accidentally with the % health damage and execute. Unless she is overtuned, I don't see her working as an assassin with this kit.
I mean in one of the highlight videos, it's literally going in, almost killing a carry, and then flash ulting ou at no health. Not much different than the one now apart from the get out thing.
On September 27 2017 05:06 Alaric wrote: Look, with RWARWARWA, Smash and other old guys gone, I'm basically old guard here, veteran and all. I remember the Neo from before 4 years ago, I was here when Chiharu's murder was investigated, I know how you used to be. Please, Neo, don't tell me you've forgotten. Don't twist the knife
there's still a few other people I remember from way back. IIRC I started league late season 1? And started posting on TL then.
I play a lot fewer games than I used to(and I play other things too), and growing old is hard . Too many responsibilities. Loss of free time really hurts.
I've still read every GD post in the last however long it's been, so I just lurk more.
Highlight vids are kinda useless for evaluating a champ. Half the time the guy is like 8-0. Plus, if Riot follows their "best practices" rework strategy she will be strong enough early to be an assassin, then that will be super OP because a stealth jungle assassin that works for pros is probably always going to be OP, then, in the Eve best case, she will be nerfed and some jungler (like Diamond with lizard) will figure out how to use her as a tanky bruiser (kinda like a jungle version of toplane Ekko), and maybe that will be stable, or maybe it will have to be nerfed into rework status again.
After goofing around with the evelyn rework it basically feels like this: If you hit the short range Q skillshot you feel like a champion, if you don't, well, you don't. The Q skillshot is hugely tied to your damage and ability to gap close (hitting Q adds 195 + 1.05 AP damage which is more than the hate spikes combined). Since Q is the best way to proc W missing Q means your W does nothing which means you can't get in range of E and all you can do is derp around.
Also, it's kind of hilarious that you get a movespeed boost with E because unless you're spacing your Qs for sheen you are just running around slapping their face with weak AAs at that point. It often feels like it doesn't really help.
Skilling up after Q is really awkward... Leveling up E feels like it gives pittance for damage (and damage is all you get) and leveling W only really gives you charm duration, which you only get with the full curse, which you pretty much only get once per fight.
R feels like garbage unless they're in the bonus damage threshold and you don't even get a cho-like indicator for that.
The eggs are definitely all in the "I hope I hit my Q to proc my W and let me do everything else" basket.
New Xin Zhao looks pretty trash, I don't know who thought to themselves "Xin needs a much shorter slow, a mini-Tryn ult, and much lower damager without damage items." Dude is gonna be straight up worthless against ADCs in this environment, can't even go tanky cdr to try to compensate because his base damage has been gutted. I'd rather have the damage so I can at least just delete someone so I don't need the gimmicky part of R.
On September 27 2017 22:05 Jek wrote: New Janna is so broken. Who ever came up with or tested this shit 100% wasn't a Janna main. lol
I think that's the goal. It's not supposed to be an issue for actual supports, but a nerf to untrained "I got stuck at support" players that just want to build ardent, press E, and collect LP.
On September 27 2017 18:04 phyvo wrote: After goofing around with the evelyn rework it basically feels like this: If you hit the short range Q skillshot you feel like a champion, if you don't, well, you don't. The Q skillshot is hugely tied to your damage and ability to gap close (hitting Q adds 195 + 1.05 AP damage which is more than the hate spikes combined). Since Q is the best way to proc W missing Q means your W does nothing which means you can't get in range of E and all you can do is derp around.
Also, it's kind of hilarious that you get a movespeed boost with E because unless you're spacing your Qs for sheen you are just running around slapping their face with weak AAs at that point. It often feels like it doesn't really help.
Skilling up after Q is really awkward... Leveling up E feels like it gives pittance for damage (and damage is all you get) and leveling W only really gives you charm duration, which you only get with the full curse, which you pretty much only get once per fight.
R feels like garbage unless they're in the bonus damage threshold and you don't even get a cho-like indicator for that.
The eggs are definitely all in the "I hope I hit my Q to proc my W and let me do everything else" basket.
I watched a quick vid of Redmercy playing Eve so I don't have any hands on experience, but I thought I heard him say you get a range increase on W. Since it doesn't break your post 6 stealth, wouldn't that be the thing to level after Q?
Hm. So xin is bugged. His passive is supposed to proc on his W as well, and the count does go up/cycle back. but the damage isnt added if the third hit is an ability. which is a lot of damage off of his kit. so as of right now you have to time your W's after you get your third hit or you are missing damage, and healing.
How the fuck is like 3 hours of data from non peak hours enough to make a hotfix? I mean she def got off too easy but if your explanation is you wanted to see the new playstyle in action first the timing seems really silly.
On September 28 2017 09:54 Slusher wrote: How the fuck is like 3 hours of data from non peak hours enough to make a hotfix? I mean she def got off too easy but if your explanation is you wanted to see the new playstyle in action first the timing seems really silly.
There's a certain amount of time after patches get finalized conceptually and cleaned up codewise and pushed. They might have put the Janna changes through thinking it wasn't enough already and worked on this in case their feeling was right.
On September 27 2017 18:04 phyvo wrote: After goofing around with the evelyn rework it basically feels like this: If you hit the short range Q skillshot you feel like a champion, if you don't, well, you don't. The Q skillshot is hugely tied to your damage and ability to gap close (hitting Q adds 195 + 1.05 AP damage which is more than the hate spikes combined). Since Q is the best way to proc W missing Q means your W does nothing which means you can't get in range of E and all you can do is derp around.
Also, it's kind of hilarious that you get a movespeed boost with E because unless you're spacing your Qs for sheen you are just running around slapping their face with weak AAs at that point. It often feels like it doesn't really help.
Skilling up after Q is really awkward... Leveling up E feels like it gives pittance for damage (and damage is all you get) and leveling W only really gives you charm duration, which you only get with the full curse, which you pretty much only get once per fight.
R feels like garbage unless they're in the bonus damage threshold and you don't even get a cho-like indicator for that.
The eggs are definitely all in the "I hope I hit my Q to proc my W and let me do everything else" basket.
I watched a quick vid of Redmercy playing Eve so I don't have any hands on experience, but I thought I heard him say you get a range increase on W. Since it doesn't break your post 6 stealth, wouldn't that be the thing to level after Q?
Yeah, I wasn't correct, sorry. W second might be even be right for PBE Eve, but it's so hard to know with how awkward the current kit feels. Leveling W actually gets you several things: range, 10% mr shred, 16s cd goes to 10s cd, +200 monster damage, +1s charm duration. But the WQ pairing itself is so awkward to use and none of that changes when skilling it up. Now, on your point about the range, range is useful if you've got good movespeed bonuses and are in the process of rotating/flanking someone. It lets you charge W early rather than walking up to them and then starting the W. But that's literally the only use I've found for extra range because camo lets you sneak up to level 1 W range anyways.
(another thing I got wrong: there is an indicator for your ultimate that tells you when they're below 30%... but, especially early game, that doesn't mean that they will die. So it's kind of not actually useful.)
I don't bother with Redmercy, but Moon was playing PBE Eve today and he had some good thoughts. He said he would play it again tomorrow but seemed a little cheesed when he signed off.
Anyways, the kit is slightly frustrating to play in so many small ways you kind of have to experience it yourself.
On September 28 2017 09:54 Slusher wrote: How the fuck is like 3 hours of data from non peak hours enough to make a hotfix? I mean she def got off too easy but if your explanation is you wanted to see the new playstyle in action first the timing seems really silly.
There's a certain amount of time after patches get finalized conceptually and cleaned up codewise and pushed. They might have put the Janna changes through thinking it wasn't enough already and worked on this in case their feeling was right.
They put out a blog post using the reasoning I questioned
On September 28 2017 09:54 Slusher wrote: How the fuck is like 3 hours of data from non peak hours enough to make a hotfix? I mean she def got off too easy but if your explanation is you wanted to see the new playstyle in action first the timing seems really silly.
There's a certain amount of time after patches get finalized conceptually and cleaned up codewise and pushed. They might have put the Janna changes through thinking it wasn't enough already and worked on this in case their feeling was right.
They put out a blog post using the reasoning I questioned
I'd be more inclined to just call it PR bullshit. When you accidently buff one of the strongest and most disliked to play against champions you darn well have some kind of excuse better than "big sorry".
classic riot taking a really smooth and cohesive kit in xin and completely shitting on it, feels so clunky to play now and the animations are fucking hilariously bad. Another level 7 champ that ill never touch again, too bad.
He's just another generic AD caster now that can blow one person up, and then dies instead of the late game drain tank he's supposed to be. Before you could go tank, bruiser or ad, now you can only go ad and maybe bruiser if your team has a lot of damage, but its suboptimal.
its hilarious that you can't AA while W is being cast it feels like you're playing a shitty version of kayn or something, WHY GIVE AN AA BASED CHAMP A LONG ANIMATION ABILITY THAT STOPS AAs LOL
On September 28 2017 22:19 VayneAuthority wrote: classic riot taking a really smooth and cohesive kit in xin and completely shitting on it, feels so clunky to play now and the animations are fucking hilariously bad. Another level 7 champ that ill never touch again, too bad.
He's just another generic AD caster now that can blow one person up, and then dies instead of the late game drain tank he's supposed to be. Before you could go tank, bruiser or ad, now you can only go ad and maybe bruiser if your team has a lot of damage, but its suboptimal.
its hilarious that you can't AA while W is being cast it feels like you're playing a shitty version of kayn or something, WHY GIVE AN AA BASED CHAMP A LONG ANIMATION ABILITY THAT STOPS AAs LOL
I watched few Dominate's games on xin today, he looked kind of all right. Also both AS and AD builds worked for him, however, I agree that he feels suboptimal with tank items
On September 28 2017 22:19 VayneAuthority wrote: classic riot taking a really smooth and cohesive kit in xin and completely shitting on it, feels so clunky to play now and the animations are fucking hilariously bad. Another level 7 champ that ill never touch again, too bad.
He's just another generic AD caster now that can blow one person up, and then dies instead of the late game drain tank he's supposed to be. Before you could go tank, bruiser or ad, now you can only go ad and maybe bruiser if your team has a lot of damage, but its suboptimal.
its hilarious that you can't AA while W is being cast it feels like you're playing a shitty version of kayn or something, WHY GIVE AN AA BASED CHAMP A LONG ANIMATION ABILITY THAT STOPS AAs LOL
I watched few Dominate's games on xin today, he looked kind of all right. Also both AS and AD builds worked for him, however, I agree that he feels suboptimal with tank items
I can't speak to his power level but just playing him in general feels really shitty, you only have 1 option basically, lead with W, all in, then W again if they are getting away. They didnt make xin less binary, just made his kit clunkier and lacking in build options.
How is the kit clunkier when they just moved his old W active to E and passive to his well passive. If it's that bad just dont use W and you have old Xin without armor shred but with a better ultimate in return.
On September 27 2017 18:04 phyvo wrote: After goofing around with the evelyn rework it basically feels like this: If you hit the short range Q skillshot you feel like a champion, if you don't, well, you don't. The Q skillshot is hugely tied to your damage and ability to gap close (hitting Q adds 195 + 1.05 AP damage which is more than the hate spikes combined). Since Q is the best way to proc W missing Q means your W does nothing which means you can't get in range of E and all you can do is derp around.
Also, it's kind of hilarious that you get a movespeed boost with E because unless you're spacing your Qs for sheen you are just running around slapping their face with weak AAs at that point. It often feels like it doesn't really help.
Skilling up after Q is really awkward... Leveling up E feels like it gives pittance for damage (and damage is all you get) and leveling W only really gives you charm duration, which you only get with the full curse, which you pretty much only get once per fight.
R feels like garbage unless they're in the bonus damage threshold and you don't even get a cho-like indicator for that.
The eggs are definitely all in the "I hope I hit my Q to proc my W and let me do everything else" basket.
I watched a quick vid of Redmercy playing Eve so I don't have any hands on experience, but I thought I heard him say you get a range increase on W. Since it doesn't break your post 6 stealth, wouldn't that be the thing to level after Q?
Yeah, I wasn't correct, sorry. W second might be even be right for PBE Eve, but it's so hard to know with how awkward the current kit feels. Leveling W actually gets you several things: range, 10% mr shred, 16s cd goes to 10s cd, +200 monster damage, +1s charm duration. But the WQ pairing itself is so awkward to use and none of that changes when skilling it up. Now, on your point about the range, range is useful if you've got good movespeed bonuses and are in the process of rotating/flanking someone. It lets you charge W early rather than walking up to them and then starting the W. But that's literally the only use I've found for extra range because camo lets you sneak up to level 1 W range anyways.
(another thing I got wrong: there is an indicator for your ultimate that tells you when they're below 30%... but, especially early game, that doesn't mean that they will die. So it's kind of not actually useful.)
I don't bother with Redmercy, but Moon was playing PBE Eve today and he had some good thoughts. He said he would play it again tomorrow but seemed a little cheesed when he signed off.
Anyways, the kit is slightly frustrating to play in so many small ways you kind of have to experience it yourself.
I totally understand. Some things you have to experience for yourself. I only mentioned Redmercy since he's a diamond level player that seems to make reasonable vids (ie: no 6 static siv builds). I saw WingsOfDeath use it as well. Both are not junglers of course but I saw them both skill the W second and seemed to do well with it.
On September 28 2017 23:52 Jek wrote: How is the kit clunkier when they just moved his old W active to E and passive to his well passive. If it's that bad just dont use W and you have old Xin without armor shred but with a better ultimate in return.
Due to his CDR reduction, having two abilities tied into one actually hurts flexibility. you cant gain attack speed without also wasting your gap closer. Add to that the passive damage downgrade to his Q, and the slow neutering on his E, and there isn't really any way to play xin without playing around his W anymore.
My guess is it's lethality working on towers and the huge amount he has combined with bonus damage on autos from Q and his passive. Classic lethality users are not auto based (or have an auto-enhancer) so just how disgusting lethality is on towers have sorta gone under the radar.
His old Q could do the same iirc. It's just lethality working on towers as Jek said. Noone went full damage Xin because they aren't idiots but QT embraces his inabilities
Feel like someone on the balance team should be getting some harsh words. Shipping a "nerf" that's just a massive buff then having to hotfix twice to actually nerf the champ screams incompetence or negligence.
On September 29 2017 23:17 Numy wrote: Feel like someone on the balance team should be getting some harsh words. Shipping a "nerf" that's just a massive buff then having to hotfix twice to actually nerf the champ screams incompetence or negligence.
Also in terms of hilarious balance changes lately, Orianna.
Get nerfed into the ground where it feels like you're lagging to play the champion. Revert most of that nerf, then randomly buff the champion. Looking forward to it getting gutted soon.
Surprised after so so many years of bizarre and backwards changes some people still not realized riots balance team is clueless and shoots in the dark when doing patches.
On September 29 2017 23:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: Like LL or Reddit is any better ...
I never quite got this response. You can't excuse people being paid to do a job doing it poorly by the fact that randoms that aren't paid to do it are not good at giving suggestions or changes. If that was the case then you could never ever criticize anyone at their job since there will always be someone worse at it that isn't being employed to do it.
At least they (try to) fix their mistakes quickly instead of forcing us to watch "beautiful fungals" and "top 3 bloord lord control in the world" for months.
On September 29 2017 23:49 Sent. wrote: At least they (try to) fix their mistakes quickly instead of forcing us to watch "beautiful fungals" and "top 3 bloord lord control in the world" for months.
I've always thought it was absurd to compare how often LoL gets patched to how often SC2 gets patched, if you fuck something up it can be banned and it's not a massive deal. If you attempted to do similar things in SC2 you'd end up with race winrates and playstyles massively jumping every 2 weeks and I really don't think that is any better.
You annoy significantly more of the playerbase because most people don't just randomly switch to different races compared to people playing a lot of different champions. I guess you can say it's kind of similar to when things like ADC as a role suffered for a while, but that also took time to fix properly and most 'issues' with the overall meta take a long time to fix.
Also it's probably time to get over WoL? lol... at least Riot's balance team isn't doing what Blizzard did 5 years ago?
Yea honestly I quite like Riots dev team. They come a long way and seem to try improve themselves constantly instead of just not giving a shit. You can't really compare to Blizzard either since they went from one of the best to one of the worst when it comes to that stuff.
On September 29 2017 23:49 Sent. wrote: At least they (try to) fix their mistakes quickly instead of forcing us to watch "beautiful fungals" and "top 3 bloord lord control in the world" for months.
i disagree, the fact they hotfixed janna doesnt effect me shes still perma bannned in ranked, on the other hand we have to endure months of cancer censer/coin meta and they still haven't nerfed it properly
On September 29 2017 23:49 Sent. wrote: At least they (try to) fix their mistakes quickly instead of forcing us to watch "beautiful fungals" and "top 3 bloord lord control in the world" for months.
i disagree, the fact they hotfixed janna doesnt effect me shes still perma bannned in ranked, on the other hand we have to endure months of cancer censer/coin meta and they still haven't nerfed it properly
It's better than when we had an entire season of things like Azir/Sivir stalling to lategame.
On September 29 2017 23:49 Sent. wrote: At least they (try to) fix their mistakes quickly instead of forcing us to watch "beautiful fungals" and "top 3 bloord lord control in the world" for months.
i disagree, the fact they hotfixed janna doesnt effect me shes still perma bannned in ranked, on the other hand we have to endure months of cancer censer/coin meta and they still haven't nerfed it properly
What meta isn't cancer? Whatever is strong at any given time is almost always called the new "cancer". There will always be something that is strong. This isn't a league only thing, it happens in Dota 2. Metas form around the new current strong stuff. This season has just been largely two metas, the carry junglers in the start and the censor/coin. Is that inherently bad? Next year will have new different metas where new things are the "cancer". It keeps the game fresh and interesting.
edit: I forgot about the tank meta! So we've had 3 distinct varied metas in this season. Seems like a win to me. You may not enjoy some of them, I know I haven't but that's just the nature of the game.
The only non-cancer meta is protect the hyper carry metas~
On September 29 2017 23:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: Like LL or Reddit is any better ...
To be honest in this case (Janna) I think they are. The issue with Janna was/is the strength and bonus AD on her shield combined with her beyond strong teamfighting, it was not CD on shield for the same reason gutting Leblanc's Distortion CD didn't destroy her - you very rarely use it constantly the instant it's off CD in the early game anyway.
The mega buff to Janna was clearly Riot not doing any sort of QA on her or if they did had no Janna players try her. I legit dont think any Janna mains above platinum thought this rework was going to do anything other than make her go from very strong to broken.
Her win rate in Korea after the patch was approaching 70% for crying out loud.
The main problem with Riot's balance team is that it is a group of low elo people that collect data basically. What does this mean?
Well you get a balance team that is always a patch or two behind the actual state of the game, barring outlers like janna in this case. You see it often where they will make a change down the line to a champ that isn't even a problem anymore. Like this patch they raised the price of RG, who the fuck thought that was a problem or was complaining about it? Maybe it was too strong a month or so ago when tanks were completely dominant, but that hasnt been the case for a while, ADC/support overrides everything at the moment.
This also means for whatever issue is currently plaguing actual high elo, it doesn't usually get touched/fixed for 2 or 4 weeks, and by then other changes they've made have already created new issues. If you had a balance team that actually PLAYED up to date games on the meta and had a feel for the game this wouldn't happen, but instead we get this system (that is still the best game company in the world at balancing currently, thats the kicker)
I love how in trash elo where I've been playing recently she's almost always up and rarely picked because they saw "nerf" in the patch list. It's been absolute freelo.
I can understand why they "delay" balancing in regards to high Elo. For the LCS to function properly from a viewers perspective there need to be a certain state of stability in the meta. Not all viewers are experienced League players up-to-date with the patch's meta, taking small steps to fix high Elo meta means the inexperienced will gradually be nudged into understanding (or even dont notice it) why this and that changed over the last few months.
On September 30 2017 00:14 VayneAuthority wrote: The main problem with Riot's balance team is that it is a group of low elo people that collect data basically. What does this mean?
I think this is a dangerously misguided notion that one has to be proficient in what they are designing. In fact often the people that are the best or in the top bracket of something are terrible at actually developing that. There are vastly different skillsets are work there. Those people are amazing at finding what is broken and exploiting that so you always want them part of a group that develops but you never want them to be primary developers.
This problem is kind of worse in League since the player base is awful at adapting to new things. They generally stick to what they know and crying about imbalance then actively fighting it. This is partly Riots fault though as they have for years responded rapidly to complaints of imbalance instead of giving time for community to try figure out solutions before changing things. They may be attempting to correct their balance pattern now but it's a bit late so it'll time a long time to find a good middle ground.
On September 30 2017 00:14 VayneAuthority wrote: The main problem with Riot's balance team is that it is a group of low elo people that collect data basically. What does this mean?
I think this is a dangerously misguided notion that one has to be proficient in what they are designing. In fact often the people that are the best or in the top bracket of something are terrible at actually developing that. There are vastly different skillsets are work there. Those people are amazing at finding what is broken and exploiting that so you always want them part of a group that develops but you never want them to be primary developers.
I mean. you should at least be knowledgeable in what you are designing. Riot does seem like their team struggles to know what makes champs good or bad, or what the potential impact of their changes might be.
They dont have to be good at the game, but they should probably know how flat CDR on movement abilities (lucian dash) improves a ranged champ significantly or how Level scaling on an item you dont get until lvl 7-10 means that looking at the low early values and saying its balanced doesnt mean anything (duskblade).
They seem like they have a set way they look at the game, and anything outside of that is dealt with hotfixes or other patches. Remember designers being upset people played taliyah without Q max so they changed the champ until you had to?
Sure those criticisms may be valid. Nothing wrong with that I don't know enough. Just pointing out that saying "they low ELO so they bad" is not really that good a criticism. The whole stuff with DK guy is just arg what is wrong with that man. He's not part of the balancing team iirc, he's one of the design guys. They have different departments which is also likely why their changes often feel a bit disjointed. The guys doing balancing aren't the guys doing champs and aren't the guys doing the mini-reworks so you get contrasting information and viewpoints at times.
From the AMAs, the interviews and the complaints of old staff. Riot really does sound like the teams are very disjointed and only occasionally have meetings between the teams. Very Finance, less game dev. Which makes sense given the founders backgrounds in finance and marketing. It does lead to some pretty strange patches where the game seems pulled in multiple directions together and not a unified vision.
EDIT: Remember that xin bug i talked about? in one of the hotfixes they just removed the reference to his W in the tooltip. lol. But now it heals, but no damage.
I was merely observing why some blatantly broken things like ardent stay untouched for a while, because collecting data and playing at a high level are two very different things, surely you can agree there?
One is engaging in it in real time, the other is getting a backlog of info that needs to be analyzed because they don't have the ability to process the power in real time, so it takes a while to get this stuff fixed.
On another note speaking of CD, im interested to see how losing one of the most powerful rune sets in the game (Flat CD blues) affects balance in champs. There are so many champs that can abuse starting with 8% CD or higher that are going to lose this. Riven is a big one.
On another note speaking of CD, im interested to see how losing one of the most powerful rune sets in the game (Flat CD blues) affects balance in champs. There are so many champs that can abuse starting with 8% CD or higher that are going to lose this. Riven is a big one.
The word was that champs starting stats and base numbers are getting tweaked to accommodate the change in starting stats with runes.
But we've heard nothing about what those changes are. Im very curious. Because even if they just multiple every stat by 1.1 or something, it'll shake up what champs are capable of.
On September 30 2017 01:54 VayneAuthority wrote: I was merely observing why some blatantly broken things like ardent stay untouched for a while, because collecting data and playing at a high level are two very different things, surely you can agree there?
One is engaging in it in real time, the other is getting a backlog of info that needs to be analyzed because they don't have the ability to process the power in real time, so it takes a while to get this stuff fixed.
On another note speaking of CD, im interested to see how losing one of the most powerful rune sets in the game (Flat CD blues) affects balance in champs. There are so many champs that can abuse starting with 8% CD or higher that are going to lose this. Riven is a big one.
How long was Censer a widespread problem(being one of the few who catch on to something and abusing it for a while isn't much of a problem large picture) before Riot tried fixing it?
On September 29 2017 23:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: Like LL or Reddit is any better ...
I never quite got this response. You can't excuse people being paid to do a job doing it poorly by the fact that randoms that aren't paid to do it are not good at giving suggestions or changes. If that was the case then you could never ever criticize anyone at their job since there will always be someone worse at it that isn't being employed to do it.
Oh I agree. But there's a lot of folks here and on Reddit that always say "well it's obvious that X Y and Z should have been done", when in reality their suggestions are much worse. Janna was a major fuckup this patch but hardly representative.
On September 30 2017 00:14 VayneAuthority wrote: The main problem with Riot's balance team is that it is a group of low elo people that collect data basically. What does this mean?
The problem with the balance team is exactly the opposite problem. What matters is the perception of balance, rather than actual balance, and the community's perception of balance is ridiculously skewed by high-elo streamers and pro players.
For example, Ardent Censer has been statistically OP for literally over a year. Like over a year ago I was complaining about how it was suffering from Cloud Drake syndrome. But literally no one used it. In fact Riot kept buffing it until some streamer finally spilled the beans, and then all of a sudden it became a problem. I mean, items don't just go from useless to "so OP Kog'Maw has to start Relic Shield". A support item is probably OP well before it reaches that point.
This Righteous Glory nerf proves exactly my point. No streamer or pro player thinks it's a problem right now, so we make fun of Riot for fixing it. When in reality it's a huge problem on a ton of champions. On Jungle Maokai, for instance, the winrate difference between second item Righteous Glory and Randuin's, two ostensibly similar items, is over 10%. That's the same gap in winrate between pre-hotfix Janna and Lux support. Not rushing RG is worse on Maokai than taking Fervor as your keystone.
My guess is that Abyssal Mask is next up on the list as stealth OP.
The data collection vs playing thing is actually really interesting point I hadn't thought of but seems pretty accurate when you think about it. As a whole I like the riot balance team to an extent I respect, because it makes their job a lot harder, that they try to maintain champion identity.
My only real complaint is a difference in philosophy of patch light often or patch big infrequent. Hotfix while on bi weekly patching is almost always too much.
People didn't use ardent censer because things like stoneborn pact didn't exist and because things like redemption/lethality were more broken. Saying stuff like ardent has been op for over a year is disingenous, it might have been a decent item but not to the level it has been recently.
On September 30 2017 03:18 Ansibled wrote: People didn't use ardent censer because things like stoneborn pact didn't exist and because items like redemption were more broken. Saying stuff like ardent has been op for over a year is disingenous, it might have been a decent item but not to the level it has been recently.
First, Ardent Censer isn't OP because of Stoneborn Pact. SP just unlocks it for more champions.
Second, Redemption didn't even exist when Ardent Censer was first OP.
On September 30 2017 03:18 Ansibled wrote: People didn't use ardent censer because things like stoneborn pact didn't exist and because items like redemption were more broken. Saying stuff like ardent has been op for over a year is disingenous, it might have been a decent item but not to the level it has been recently.
It was more that it was never given a chance. Redemption and Locket provide very visible effects. It doesn't take a genius to see a giant circular heal or a massive shield. The effects of Censer is a lot more subtle in comparison. It was simply crowded out as an option. Why/when would you build Censer when it would come after/instead of the other two?
I'm pretty sure if they reverted the changes to these 3 items, Ardent would have more of a place in the support itemization meta.
I agree ardent was already very powerful when I was playing sona last season, my usually low gold friend after1year without playing literally 10-0d placement and entered plat5 with under 25 games spamming sona with censer after locket every single game
Actually the RG nerf is precisely a look at why Riot's balance team is incompetent. If things like jungle maokai and sejuani and rammus are too strong then fucking nerf them. Meanwhile I'm just over here trying to play skarner who goes first item RG and is like a tier 3 jungler and he gets a fucking massive nerf thanks to their shit balance team.
I try to play nice when I post here but some people are just so clueless it's impossible. It's better to just stay away.
The balance team is ok. The big problem is I feel like there is a Chinese wall between balance and design at riot, so whenever the design people have a "cool new idea" balance doesn't seem to get to see it until its too late. Like the urgot rework, balancing that guy is a full time job, there's no way anyone on the balance team have that exploding let's feature an ok.
On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote: Actually the RG nerf is precisely a look at why Riot's balance team is incompetent. If things like jungle maokai and sejuani and rammus are too strong then fucking nerf them. Meanwhile I'm just over here trying to play skarner who goes first item RG and is like a tier 3 jungler and he gets a fucking massive nerf thanks to their shit balance team.
I try to play nice when I post here but some people are just so clueless it's impossible. It's better to just stay away.
Not to like, trigger you or anything, but the problem is obviously not with Maokai. Many champions have really distorted win graphs with RG. Nasus, Olaf, Darius, Cho'Gath, Singed - it turns out that if cheap mobility is OP you are really going to fuck balance for champions designed to be kited. Shit there's even some high elo Korean Kog'Maw player building it.
Also
On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote: like a tier 3 jungler and he gets a fucking massive nerf thanks to their shit balance team.
On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote: fucking massive nerf thanks to their shit balance team.
On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote: fucking massive nerf
On September 30 2017 03:57 VayneAuthority wrote: just so clueless it's impossible
yes because a winrate going up due to a core item nerf and no buffs clearly equals a buff XD I've skated the word before, but you are an actual autistic person.
GI would fit in well with the balance team, silver/gold player that thinks he knows anything
On September 30 2017 05:23 VayneAuthority wrote: yes because a winrate going up due to a core item nerf and no buffs clearly equals a buff XD I've skated the word before, but you are an actual autistic person.
GI would fit in well with the balance team, silver/gold player that thinks he knows anything
I don't think that's at all what he's saying. If someone gets stronger even after nerfing them it most likely implies that the other stuff they doing to the game made him stronger and without any nerfs he'd be overtuned. So nerfing preemptively isn't a totally terrible idea.
I get you two have this weird beef going on but lets cool it with the raging insults that don't add anything to the discussion.
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam
It works perfectly. He isn't that strong since literally nobody bans him.
He is at 50.98% with 0.60% play rate which means even less.
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam
It works perfectly. He isn't that strong since literally nobody bans him.
He is at 50.98% with 0.60% play rate which means even less.
No one bans him now, but no one banned him before either. The point is whether the patch was a "massive fucking nerf". That's not gonna be something you can tell from changes in the ban rate, not when there's apparently only one guy on the server banning Skarner.
Same as to the play rate. Nobody plays Skarner. We all know that. But that was true pre-patch and post-patch. That doesn't mean anything as to whether he got nerfed. The only data you have is winrate data, and even though it has a low sample size, the important point is that it's consistent between patches.
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam
It works perfectly. He isn't that strong since literally nobody bans him.
He is at 50.98% with 0.60% play rate which means even less.
No one bans him now, but no one banned him before either. The point is whether the patch was a "massive fucking nerf". That's not gonna be something you can tell from changes in the ban rate, not when there's apparently only one guy on the server banning Skarner.
Same as to the play rate. Nobody plays Skarner. We all know that. But that was true pre-patch and post-patch. That doesn't mean anything as to whether he got nerfed. The only data you have is winrate data, and even though it has a low sample size, the important point is that it's consistent between patches.
When sample size is that low data might as well not exist. I am not saying anything about skarner since I haven't read patch notes. The general logic of looking at stats like this is pointless. Unless something is an outlier you might as well just ignore it.
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam
It works perfectly. He isn't that strong since literally nobody bans him.
He is at 50.98% with 0.60% play rate which means even less.
No one bans him now, but no one banned him before either. The point is whether the patch was a "massive fucking nerf". That's not gonna be something you can tell from changes in the ban rate, not when there's apparently only one guy on the server banning Skarner.
Same as to the play rate. Nobody plays Skarner. We all know that. But that was true pre-patch and post-patch. That doesn't mean anything as to whether he got nerfed. The only data you have is winrate data, and even though it has a low sample size, the important point is that it's consistent between patches.
When sample size is that low data might as well not exist. I am not saying anything about skarner since I haven't read patch notes. The general logic of looking at stats like this is pointless. Unless something is an outlier you might as well just ignore it.
So now we're getting deep into stats nerdery but your view is a common misconception.
Low sample sizes can be used all the time. There is no magic number where a sample size is large enough to be "OK". Instead, you evaluate the statistic's predictive power on a continuum through a confidence level. A large, well-distributed sample allows you to have stronger confidence to make stronger predictions. A small sample just means you have lower confidence in your findings. What confidence level, and size of sample, required is entirely up to the hypothesis you're testing and whether you're trying to prove it or disprove it. For example, the most extreme hypotheses (e.g., all white people have blonde hair) can be disproved with a n = 1 sample.
More generally, what you actually care about is how the sample was distributed. A truly randomly representative sample can theoretically be of any size and still have very strong predictive power. Meanwhile, even very large samples are useless if they are not representative of the overall population.
Finally, bad data is still data. So long as you're aware of the limitations and biases of the data, it remains useful to prove whatever it can prove. Surveys of extremely biased, small samples are still useful when answering questions where those limitations are irrelevant, particularly if there is no contradictory data.
So here, lolalytics Skarner data has relatively low predictive power because nobody plays Skarner. But that's OK, because:
1) We have limited reason to believe that the Skarner data was collected in a non-representative way that would significantly bias the relevant finding; 2) The hypothesis we wanted to test was helpfully very extreme, and so even stats with low confidence level are sufficient to disprove it; 3) The hypothesis is looking for a comparison between last patch and this patch, and there's no reason to believe that the sample was somehow corrupted between patches or that it's not comparable in some way.
In short I would consider win rate data to be generally reliable but dependent wholly on whatever you're trying to prove. Win rate data is very good at proving whether a champion got better or worse, provided no large changes in play rate. Win rate data is very bad at proving what champion is best for any given player, given biases in how we choose to play who we play. Win rate data is equally bad at determining whether a champion is "better" or "worse" than another, and moderately bad at determining even what counters what.
Item win rate data is hopelessly bad for a multitude of additional reasons, with the possible exception of first item win rate. But when the signal is strong enough (like how Janna used to have 70+% win rates with Ardent Censer and still nobody said anything about it) even it can tell a useful story.
On September 30 2017 13:50 cLutZ wrote: I still don't see how soloq is properly related to balance...
What would be a better alternative?
Something with voice chat. I'd consider gold players with in client voice chat a more reliable data point than diamond players without it for balance purposes.
The fact of that and the intelligence of it being so are two different things. Particularly when you were commenting on champ strength. The lack of voice chat creates a very large "coordination gap" which causes soloQ stats to favor things like Janna. Lots of people think she was high winrate because "faceroll", but it was just as much, if not more, about how, typing (or even pinging) to indicate what you are about to do wastes time. Janna need not indicate what she is going to do to be effective.
Again, those are all true points. You can make it even stronger, by pointing out that team-oriented people tend to choose Janna, whereas non-team-oriented people tend to choose, say, Lux support; the fact that Lux support does very badly is partially because she's a shit support, but also because the type of person to play Lux support in ranked is a shit teammate.
But again it cancels out when you use it to judge a champion's relative strength over time. Janna will and should always have a good win rate in solo queue, no one intelligent should dispute that. But the overall trend remains interesting and communicates useful information.
I would say though that champions that are rarely played are usually weaker than their win-rate indicates because the people playing them typically have a significantly higher average number of games played on the champion, and people playing against them usually have a significantly lower understanding of what their shit does.
Finally picked up Ezreal jungle and have to say he's really strong. Buff -> wolves -> buff -> toplaner / jungler is a very effective route.The only problem is sometimes you get games with 4 glass cannons on your team, but these games are winnable too.
On October 02 2017 00:22 Sent. wrote: Finally picked up Ezreal jungle and have to say he's really strong. Buff -> wolves -> buff -> toplaner / jungler is a very effective route.The only problem is sometimes you get games with 4 glass cannons on your team, but these games are winnable too.
But is it OP? It doesn't look too OP , it looks like a viable strong pick IMO, its interesting if people will push Riot to change it
On October 02 2017 02:17 Sent. wrote: I would say he should be kicked out of the jungle because he offers everything except hard cc while being extremely safe.
I'm not sure if that isn't fine. He makes the team comp be pretty ugly or strange at times since junglers normally fill the role of either someone that just insta gibs fools or a tanky support presence. Since he fills this pretty strange niche it can be tricky to fill the roles you need in other positions. Supports typically aren't that most amazing tanks if the game is even or a little behind unless you on someone like Ali. Mid lane also doesn't typically use tanks. So you left with a bit of a hole in the initiation department. Means you need to play the sieging/disengage game very well with the more limited resources at your disposal or just snowball the early game super hard.
Is that a real problem? Maybe, personally think it's interesting but since it's such a niche it could just be that it's something only seen if overpowered.
ADCs are always highly desirable champions to have on your team because they do a lot dps, it's the same reason mid lane Corki/Lucian is also popular. None of the three are going to outdmg a Kog or Twitch, but if allowed to sit and deal damage, they will shred teams, especially squishies.
Also Ezreal is relatively bursty in the jungle, if he gets ahead then his Q hits like a truck. No junglers except Kha/Rengo/Elise blow up champions that well, and Ezreal is so much safer than any of those.
Supports typically aren't that most amazing tanks if the game is even or a little behind unless you on someone like Ali.
Even with the Ardent meta going around, tank supports are still quite popular. And Ali is pretty dope right now, his kill pressure when jungler is around is insane. But teams with tanks aren't the only comps you can run: you simply get ahead enough early/mid before the enemy team gets properly tanky.
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam
It works perfectly. He isn't that strong since literally nobody bans him.
He is at 50.98% with 0.60% play rate which means even less.
No one bans him now, but no one banned him before either. The point is whether the patch was a "massive fucking nerf". That's not gonna be something you can tell from changes in the ban rate, not when there's apparently only one guy on the server banning Skarner.
Same as to the play rate. Nobody plays Skarner. We all know that. But that was true pre-patch and post-patch. That doesn't mean anything as to whether he got nerfed. The only data you have is winrate data, and even though it has a low sample size, the important point is that it's consistent between patches.
When sample size is that low data might as well not exist. I am not saying anything about skarner since I haven't read patch notes. The general logic of looking at stats like this is pointless. Unless something is an outlier you might as well just ignore it.
So now we're getting deep into stats nerdery but your view is a common misconception.
Low sample sizes can be used all the time. There is no magic number where a sample size is large enough to be "OK". Instead, you evaluate the statistic's predictive power on a continuum through a confidence level. A large, well-distributed sample allows you to have stronger confidence to make stronger predictions. A small sample just means you have lower confidence in your findings. What confidence level, and size of sample, required is entirely up to the hypothesis you're testing and whether you're trying to prove it or disprove it. For example, the most extreme hypotheses (e.g., all white people have blonde hair) can be disproved with a n = 1 sample.
More generally, what you actually care about is how the sample was distributed. A truly randomly representative sample can theoretically be of any size and still have very strong predictive power. Meanwhile, even very large samples are useless if they are not representative of the overall population.
Finally, bad data is still data. So long as you're aware of the limitations and biases of the data, it remains useful to prove whatever it can prove. Surveys of extremely biased, small samples are still useful when answering questions where those limitations are irrelevant, particularly if there is no contradictory data.
So here, lolalytics Skarner data has relatively low predictive power because nobody plays Skarner. But that's OK, because:
1) We have limited reason to believe that the Skarner data was collected in a non-representative way that would significantly bias the relevant finding; 2) The hypothesis we wanted to test was helpfully very extreme, and so even stats with low confidence level are sufficient to disprove it; 3) The hypothesis is looking for a comparison between last patch and this patch, and there's no reason to believe that the sample was somehow corrupted between patches or that it's not comparable in some way.
In short I would consider win rate data to be generally reliable but dependent wholly on whatever you're trying to prove. Win rate data is very good at proving whether a champion got better or worse, provided no large changes in play rate. Win rate data is very bad at proving what champion is best for any given player, given biases in how we choose to play who we play. Win rate data is equally bad at determining whether a champion is "better" or "worse" than another, and moderately bad at determining even what counters what.
Item win rate data is hopelessly bad for a multitude of additional reasons, with the possible exception of first item win rate. But when the signal is strong enough (like how Janna used to have 70+% win rates with Ardent Censer and still nobody said anything about it) even it can tell a useful story.
How do you take into account play rate on other shit changing? Or people figuring out how to beat something when they encounter it often like "qss is good vs skarner"?
In short you are ignoring a lot of variables which matter a lot.
Hell I did a small "survey" and asked 20 people I know ranging from bronze to diamond to describe all 4 of skarner's abilities and estimate their numbers. Try to guess how many of them got it close? To make it even more fun I don't even know most of his numbers yet I regularly play with people who play him.
On September 30 2017 07:00 Fildun wrote: Surely one day winrates on a champion with a playrate like Skarner's are the definitive conclusion on everything concerning buffs and/or nerfs.
I certainly agree. That's why I didn't claim that Skarner got buffed. I definitely wouldn't have said this proves that Skarner got "fucking massive buffs".
All I'm saying is, if I did make a really extreme statement about balance (for example, "fucking massive nerfs"), you would reasonably expect at least something vaguely in that general direction.
And so if the champion not only doesn't go down in winrate, but in fact goes up in winrate, it would probably make me a bit less credible when I go on to rant about others being clueless about balance.
But hey, you know, I'm happy to check back in a week and see how it's going then.
How does a week change anything xD? Especially now with 10 bans, ban rate is probably a better indicator than win % at how good champs are(since win rate is useless unless it is a crazy number like >54%).
Yeah not sure that's gonna help fam
It works perfectly. He isn't that strong since literally nobody bans him.
He is at 50.98% with 0.60% play rate which means even less.
No one bans him now, but no one banned him before either. The point is whether the patch was a "massive fucking nerf". That's not gonna be something you can tell from changes in the ban rate, not when there's apparently only one guy on the server banning Skarner.
Same as to the play rate. Nobody plays Skarner. We all know that. But that was true pre-patch and post-patch. That doesn't mean anything as to whether he got nerfed. The only data you have is winrate data, and even though it has a low sample size, the important point is that it's consistent between patches.
When sample size is that low data might as well not exist. I am not saying anything about skarner since I haven't read patch notes. The general logic of looking at stats like this is pointless. Unless something is an outlier you might as well just ignore it.
So now we're getting deep into stats nerdery but your view is a common misconception.
Low sample sizes can be used all the time. There is no magic number where a sample size is large enough to be "OK". Instead, you evaluate the statistic's predictive power on a continuum through a confidence level. A large, well-distributed sample allows you to have stronger confidence to make stronger predictions. A small sample just means you have lower confidence in your findings. What confidence level, and size of sample, required is entirely up to the hypothesis you're testing and whether you're trying to prove it or disprove it. For example, the most extreme hypotheses (e.g., all white people have blonde hair) can be disproved with a n = 1 sample.
More generally, what you actually care about is how the sample was distributed. A truly randomly representative sample can theoretically be of any size and still have very strong predictive power. Meanwhile, even very large samples are useless if they are not representative of the overall population.
Finally, bad data is still data. So long as you're aware of the limitations and biases of the data, it remains useful to prove whatever it can prove. Surveys of extremely biased, small samples are still useful when answering questions where those limitations are irrelevant, particularly if there is no contradictory data.
So here, lolalytics Skarner data has relatively low predictive power because nobody plays Skarner. But that's OK, because:
1) We have limited reason to believe that the Skarner data was collected in a non-representative way that would significantly bias the relevant finding; 2) The hypothesis we wanted to test was helpfully very extreme, and so even stats with low confidence level are sufficient to disprove it; 3) The hypothesis is looking for a comparison between last patch and this patch, and there's no reason to believe that the sample was somehow corrupted between patches or that it's not comparable in some way.
In short I would consider win rate data to be generally reliable but dependent wholly on whatever you're trying to prove. Win rate data is very good at proving whether a champion got better or worse, provided no large changes in play rate. Win rate data is very bad at proving what champion is best for any given player, given biases in how we choose to play who we play. Win rate data is equally bad at determining whether a champion is "better" or "worse" than another, and moderately bad at determining even what counters what.
Item win rate data is hopelessly bad for a multitude of additional reasons, with the possible exception of first item win rate. But when the signal is strong enough (like how Janna used to have 70+% win rates with Ardent Censer and still nobody said anything about it) even it can tell a useful story.
How do you take into account play rate on other shit changing? Or people figuring out how to beat something when they encounter it often like "qss is good vs skarner"?
In short you are ignoring a lot of variables which matter a lot.
Hell I did a small "survey" and asked 20 people I know ranging from bronze to diamond to describe all 4 of skarner's abilities and estimate their numbers. Try to guess how many of them got it close? To make it even more fun I don't even know most of his numbers yet I regularly play with people who play him.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Sure, whether people build QSS is a big influence on Skarner/Malzahar winrate. But so is whether people build Greivous vs Mundo, whether people fight in the Illaoi ult, whether people flash Maokai's W before or after he starts casting it. There are so many such variables, most of which are basically how good you are at this game. The point of winrate as a stat is to collapse all those variables down into a set of expectations for the average game at a certain MMR. Sometimes it oversimplifies the situation, but it still gives you an overall picture of whether you should expect a W or an L.
To give an extreme example: if Skarner won 100% of games where QSS wasn't built, and 0% of games where QSS is built, and QSS is built 51% of the time - he's gonna have a winrate of 51%, which obviously is very stupid, but doesn't change the fact that on average, 51% of the time, having a Skarner on your team means you're going to win.
More importantly in this context it definitely doesn't matter, because there's no reason to believe that QSS is being built more in 7.19 than in 7.18. It's true that 7.19 changed the playrates of other champions; maybe it made Sivir less viable which hurts Skarner. But that'd just be a 7.19 nerf to Skarner, albeit indirect, and you'd see it in a change in win rate.
On October 02 2017 21:56 GrandInquisitor wrote: To give an extreme example: if Skarner won 100% of games where QSS wasn't built, and 0% of games where QSS is built, and QSS is built 51% of the time - he's gonna have a winrate of 51%, which obviously is very stupid, but doesn't change the fact that on average, 51% of the time, having a Skarner on your team means you're going to win.
Grevious wounds vs mundo isnt too bad ever since it got dropped to 40%, it's practically counteracted by a mastery and SV, which results in a 17% debuff instead of a 40% (i think. it might just be a 2% debuff, the math on that is unclear, if its multiplicative on healing received or additive with bonuses to healing received).
Stuff like redemption, locket, and Mikaels are actually good on mundo anyway, because of how weird his stat likes are and totally counteract the grevious pain if you get one of the healing ones.
On October 03 2017 01:18 PrinceXizor wrote: Grevious wounds vs mundo isnt too bad ever since it got dropped to 40%, it's practically counteracted by a mastery and SV, which results in a 17% debuff instead of a 40% (i think. it might just be a 2% debuff, the math on that is unclear, if its multiplicative on healing received or additive with bonuses to healing received).
Stuff like redemption, locket, and Mikaels are actually good on mundo anyway, because of how weird his stat likes are and totally counteract the grevious pain if you get one of the healing ones.
On October 03 2017 01:18 PrinceXizor wrote: Grevious wounds vs mundo isnt too bad ever since it got dropped to 40%, it's practically counteracted by a mastery and SV, which results in a 17% debuff instead of a 40% (i think. it might just be a 2% debuff, the math on that is unclear, if its multiplicative on healing received or additive with bonuses to healing received).
Stuff like redemption, locket, and Mikaels are actually good on mundo anyway, because of how weird his stat likes are and totally counteract the grevious pain if you get one of the healing ones.
Mundo has issues for other reasons though.
That's not how math works.
LOL which way isnt how math works?
that 138% * 60% = .82.8% Or wondering if the formula is instead 100%+ (38%-40%) = 98%.
Because i said both ways. because im not sure how the formula calculates increased/reduced healing.
The math is correct though.
Grevious wounds still removes the effect of SV either way, but it doesnt particular gimp mundo's healing.
Lowering his heal to 82.8% from 138% is a 40% decrease not a 17.2% decease. Lowering his heal to 82.8% from 138% is a 40% decrease not a 17.2% decease. Heal enhancers like Censer and Mikael's stack additive and Grievous Wounds is a multiplier to the total result, so no. You're wrong in both cases. Grievous Wounds is a hard counter to heal enhancing effects.
On October 03 2017 01:46 Jek wrote: Lowering his heal to 82.8% from 138% is a 40% decrease not a 17.2% decease. Lowering his heal to 82.8% from 138% is a 40% decrease not a 17.2% decease. Heal enhancers like Censer and Mikael's stack additive and Grievous Wounds is a multiplier to the total result, so no. You're wrong in both cases. Grievous Wounds is a hard counter to heal enhancing effects.
(psst 100-82.8 is 17.2%)
the items counter act the 40% debuff and reduce it to a 17.2% debuff in effectiveness.
and effectiveness is the point. Mundo is healing only 17.2% less than he would without any modifiers to his healing.
On October 03 2017 01:55 Jek wrote: You really dont understand fundamental math.
you dont seem to understand the difference between changes in isolation and changes as a group.
The difference between Grevious vs a 100 HP heal (-40 healing) with no healing buffs and Grevious vs 100 Heal +38% healing (-17.2 Healing).
Im talking the difference in the debuff from the value of the heal between those situations. not the difference that grevious changes alone. because thats 40% its right there in the description. The Effectiveness on the same heal is different though. a 100 HP heal goes to 60 in the former, and to 82.8 in the second.
It doesnt matter at all that the heal gets buffed to 138 before the grevious wounds when it comes to living or dying. its still a 100 HP heal that turns to 82.8, rather than 60, like it would without the SV/mastery. The background math doesnt impact how much HP you have at the end of the heal, only the total result of the changes.
its similar to the difference of Armor on physical damage. 100 Armor = 50% reduction, 200 armor = 75% reduction. 100 Armor is a 100% increase in effective Hp whether its the first hundred or the second. but the Incoming damage 100 damage is reduced by 50 for the first 100 and by 25 for the 2nd 100. even though relatively its 50% both ways. or 100% in effective HP.
When we're talking about the difference in absolute health. Whether you heal enough to live or not, is binary. whether you block enough physical damage or not, is binary. and looking at your heal of 100 and saying okay i'll have 82.8 more hp after this heal, or looking at the incoming 100 physical damage and saying okay if i use this 100 Armor buff i'll take 25 less damage than if i dont.
On October 03 2017 02:08 PrinceXizor wrote: Im talking the difference in the debuff from the value of the heal between those situations. not the difference that grevious changes alone. because thats 40% its right there in the description. The Effectiveness on the same heal is different though. a 100 HP heal goes to 60 in the former, and to 82.8 in the second.
Please tell me you realize that turning a 138 heal into 82.8 is a 40% decrease and not 17.2% which is why
On October 03 2017 02:08 PrinceXizor wrote: Grevious wounds vs mundo isnt too bad ever since it got dropped to 40%, it's practically counteracted by a mastery and SV, which results in a 17% debuff instead of a 40% (i think. it might just be a 2% debuff, the math on that is unclear, if its multiplicative on healing received or additive with bonuses to healing received).
Stuff like redemption, locket, and Mikaels are actually good on mundo anyway, because of how weird his stat likes are and totally counteract the grevious pain if you get one of the healing ones.
This is completely wrong. Grievous Wounds is extremely bad for Mundo and any champion building +heal% items.
On October 03 2017 02:08 PrinceXizor wrote: It doesnt matter at all that the heal gets buffed to 138 before the grevious wounds when it comes to living or dying. its still a 100 HP heal that turns to 82.8, rather than 60, like it would without the SV/mastery. The background math doesnt impact how much HP you have at the end of the heal, only the total result of the changes.
I honestly dont know if you're trolling at this point.
Screw the numbers as a Mundo player I can tell you playing into roa users makes the game so much easier. Yes full blown late game mundo can still be a monster vs 2-3 ap comps but it's morello rush mids vs your lvl 6 and to some extent 11 ults that can set you behind.
Imo mundo is really powerful right now if you only pick him in situations where you can abuse his free mr. This isn't exclusive to roa mids, but roa mids do exaggerate his strength contrary to what PX stated.
On October 03 2017 02:08 PrinceXizor wrote: Im talking the difference in the debuff from the value of the heal between those situations. not the difference that grevious changes alone. because thats 40% its right there in the description. The Effectiveness on the same heal is different though. a 100 HP heal goes to 60 in the former, and to 82.8 in the second.
Please tell me you realize that turning a 138 heal into 82.8 is a 40% decrease and not 17.2% which is why
On October 03 2017 02:08 PrinceXizor wrote: Grevious wounds vs mundo isnt too bad ever since it got dropped to 40%, it's practically counteracted by a mastery and SV, which results in a 17% debuff instead of a 40% (i think. it might just be a 2% debuff, the math on that is unclear, if its multiplicative on healing received or additive with bonuses to healing received).
Stuff like redemption, locket, and Mikaels are actually good on mundo anyway, because of how weird his stat likes are and totally counteract the grevious pain if you get one of the healing ones.
This is completely wrong. Grievous Wounds is extremely bad for Mundo and any champion building +heal% items.
On October 03 2017 02:08 PrinceXizor wrote: It doesnt matter at all that the heal gets buffed to 138 before the grevious wounds when it comes to living or dying. its still a 100 HP heal that turns to 82.8, rather than 60, like it would without the SV/mastery. The background math doesnt impact how much HP you have at the end of the heal, only the total result of the changes.
I honestly dont know if you're trolling at this point.
I guess PX's argument is that GV is partially offset by SV + mastery so it's no big deal. But that's super dumb, because every Mundo builds SV and takes the healing mastery regardless of whether GV is being built. It is rather like saying, stealing your wallet is no big deal because it'll be offset by you getting your paycheck tomorrow. But I was going to get my paycheck anyway ...
To play devils advocate I think he meant (before the math) in situations where mundo is good he's still good even in the presence of wounds.
To which I say yes mundo is still good vs heavy magic teams even if they get grevious once you are 16 and have 3+ Major items. However in the early game which is where a lot of games are decided (which is probably why he sees no pro play despite being really strong vs the right champs) the difference between a roa mid and a morello mid is night and day. Lvl 6 may as well not even exist into grevious.
(Bramble doesn't really matter as cleaver does 90% of you damage to tanks anyway so you can just not auto them)
On October 03 2017 06:45 Ansibled wrote: Mundo is great to run people down they never expect the auto damage. I usually don't bother getting SV though.
Smurfing with PD first mundo is actually hilarious.
You people are forgetting that when people see Mundo, they automatically buy an Exec on ADC and then the ArPen upgrade. That is such a debuff for Mundo, he will still be extremely tanky because that's how he builds, but because he has no proper engage, that is mitigated by the fact he can be kited.
Mundo is a good situational pick, if you see a comp where you can get away with him, he's pretty scary. His Q is a nightmare for other tanks to sustain through in the top lane, and he can 1vs2 the jungler if you let him sit and farm in the right matchup.
On October 03 2017 06:24 Slusher wrote: (Bramble doesn't really matter as cleaver does 90% of you damage to tanks anyway so you can just not auto them)
Bramble Vest introduced a new interesting mechanic to League that didn't exist before - the importance of NOT autoattacking the enemy tank as Swain/Vladimir. I see it most often in ARAMs.
I would have thought that the video where he's spamming tab/F-keys/ESC while walking into a recalling Elise who proceeds to slowly kill him as he continues to spam menu keys, was the last word on LS and his APM spam.
I also like the claims that it's a habit he can't break. Yes, because I too often will randomly 1a2a3a 0p9p8p during games.
All watching LS does is remind me that I miss seeing Monte/Doa cast LCK. It's kinda funny, because SpoTV is far better without LS; but in the way it's better to have a root canal than a leg amputated. The lack of good casters in LoL is glaring.
There really is no reason to spam Lol though. Like in Starcraft you're running through your priority list because you have to do 857533 things at once (ok, like 20), but in lol you have to do one.
On October 04 2017 01:34 geript wrote: All watching LS does is remind me that I miss seeing Monte/Doa cast LCK. It's kinda funny, because SpoTV is far better without LS; but in the way it's better to have a root canal than a leg amputated. The lack of good casters in LoL is glaring.
Also gone is Deman and Miller. So years, the top 4 all time are gone.
On October 04 2017 02:52 iCanada wrote: There really is no reason to spam Lol though. Like in Starcraft you're running through your priority list because you have to do 857533 things at once (ok, like 20), but in lol you have to do one.
LS is an idiot.
Spamming your F-keys is pretty useful while in the jungle. Specially in yolo Q with 0 comms on where the wave is pushing.
I'm ok with papa, but if I had constructive criticism I'd say he drills his narrative a little too hard. I actually like Crumbz, although more for his memeing than anything else, I just personally find him very funny. I think he'd actually be really good with Achillios (sp?) if that ever happened.
I dunno. Papa is fine is really small doses, but I feel like he game knowledge is actually quite low, and also always feel like he is rooting for a team.
I'd rather deal with an overextended narrative from Smithy than an over reactive judgement call about a surprise pick that metaphorically runs down mid constantly because "muh analysis" from Monte.
On October 04 2017 04:58 JimmiC wrote: Doa is missed. To me Monte is not missed at all, that guy loved himself way to much. I couldn't handle his ego and hey look at me style. Pretty sure he thought he was more important than the game.
Probably DoA could have moulded papa into something good, but he has a bad habit of veering into PBP and stepping on casts. Monte was much better at letting things breathe/ letting DOA drive.
On October 04 2017 02:52 iCanada wrote: There really is no reason to spam Lol though. Like in Starcraft you're running through your priority list because you have to do 857533 things at once (ok, like 20), but in lol you have to do one.
LS is an idiot.
The biggest idiot in E-sports, which is impressive in it's own way.
Both funny and true.
On October 04 2017 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote: While I also miss Monte/Doa, PapaSmithy's grown on me this year.
I actually like PapaSmithy, but he was much better with Doa/Monte than he is with Achillios.
On October 04 2017 04:33 Slusher wrote: I'm ok with papa, but if I had constructive criticism I'd say he drills his narrative a little too hard. I actually like Crumbz, although more for his memeing than anything else, I just personally find him very funny. I think he'd actually be really good with Achillios (sp?) if that ever happened.
Crumbz has good and bad points. I think the major problem is who he's paired with right now. I think part of the reason I don't like him is that he sounds like all the potheads I've ever known.
On October 04 2017 04:58 JimmiC wrote: Doa is missed. To me Monte is not missed at all, that guy loved himself way to much. I couldn't handle his ego and hey look at me style. Pretty sure he thought he was more important than the game.
He definitely heavily over valued his own stock.
Jatt and Deficio aren't bad. I like Frostskurin, but she's an acquired taste and I think she's sexy af. For the most part those, I just turn the volume off and just watch when I'm not doing other things.
On October 04 2017 05:41 iCanada wrote: It's weird to me how much success LS has had being a pretend BW expert in a community that knows nothing about BW.
He just makes shit up and says "but my BW did it" and people eat it up.
It's weird to me that people are dumb enough to even buy into his bullshit at all.
It's odd people saying how spamming is some kind of pro thing he did from BW but like pros don't mindlessly spam stuff that doesn't matter. People do that so they can claim their apm is so amazing while effective apm is dogshit. It only happens at the every start of the games anyway.
Guy is really good at being a cult personality. People are attracted to smugness.
On October 04 2017 05:41 iCanada wrote: It's weird to me how much success LS has had being a pretend BW expert in a community that knows nothing about BW.
He just makes shit up and says "but my BW did it" and people eat it up.
not hard to have success claiming to be a big shot when you arent if you just talk exclusively to people who dont know better.
add to that the young or new-to-esports demographic that dominates League fans, and you get people willing to buy in.
Brood War, and I guess StarCraft overall just has a really weird reputation in esports where everyone claims to know about it and it's kind of revered. I don't know it's like if you mention you know StarCraft you're suddenly more legitimate or something, at least that's the impression I get.
Also I've watched like Flash/other pros play League and they don't look like they're having a seizure xd
On October 04 2017 06:08 Numy wrote: It's odd people saying how spamming is some kind of pro thing he did from BW but like pros don't mindlessly spam stuff that doesn't matter. People do that so they can claim their apm is so amazing while effective apm is dogshit. It only happens at the every start of the games anyway.
Guy is really good at being a cult personality. People are attracted to smugness.
Some people just can't transition between actually clicking and drooling on themselves. Gotta keep clicking shit. Although he doesn't even do it properly. You are supposed to click closer to your champ so you can move better.
On October 04 2017 06:08 Numy wrote: It's odd people saying how spamming is some kind of pro thing he did from BW but like pros don't mindlessly spam stuff that doesn't matter. People do that so they can claim their apm is so amazing while effective apm is dogshit. It only happens at the every start of the games anyway.
Guy is really good at being a cult personality. People are attracted to smugness.
Some people just can't transition between actually clicking and drooling on themselves. Gotta keep clicking shit. Although he doesn't even do it properly. You are supposed to click closer to your champ so you can move better.
alternately just play with nearly infinite DPI, like some people do xD
On October 04 2017 06:08 Numy wrote: It's odd people saying how spamming is some kind of pro thing he did from BW but like pros don't mindlessly spam stuff that doesn't matter. People do that so they can claim their apm is so amazing while effective apm is dogshit. It only happens at the every start of the games anyway.
Guy is really good at being a cult personality. People are attracted to smugness.
Some people just can't transition between actually clicking and drooling on themselves. Gotta keep clicking shit. Although he doesn't even do it properly. You are supposed to click closer to your champ so you can move better.
alternately just play with nearly infinite DPI, like some people do xD
Yea watching these madmen play is weird.
Also apparently what made him "go off" was some challenger guy he invited to his home who was inting in his game. Still pretty funny though.
To be fair OP.GG grossly underestimates the amount of people in Bronze, because the only way to collect tier stats is through people who use OP.GG (and possibly to crawl people's games). The true Bronze players do not ever use OP.GG and basically inhabit their own world invisible to all the online scrapers.
I also don't think there needs to be a lot of differentiation at the sub-Gold level. Like it would be super shitty if there were the equivalent of Challenged for the bottom 200 players. Why bother, man.
But I agree with the sentiment that what we really need another tier. I would break Bronze, move the bottom portion to Wood or whatever, then move the bottom of Silver to Bronze. And keep ranked rewards at where it is now, i.e., top one-third or slightly less.
On October 04 2017 06:08 Numy wrote: It's odd people saying how spamming is some kind of pro thing he did from BW but like pros don't mindlessly spam stuff that doesn't matter. People do that so they can claim their apm is so amazing while effective apm is dogshit. It only happens at the every start of the games anyway.
Guy is really good at being a cult personality. People are attracted to smugness.
Some people just can't transition between actually clicking and drooling on themselves. Gotta keep clicking shit. Although he doesn't even do it properly. You are supposed to click closer to your champ so you can move better.
alternately just play with nearly infinite DPI, like some people do xD
Yea watching these madmen play is weird.
The interesting thing is it makes sense. lets you use the minimap nearly instantly without needing to take your hands off your ability hotkeys for the F key camera control. also lets you use the finer control for skillshots by clicking far away from your champion, giving you more pixels to click to fine tune the angle the skillshots are fired at. but still not be locked out time-wise from clicking behind you to kite or reposition.
Seems real real weird to get used to though. i imagine you'd get a lot worse before you got better.
On October 04 2017 14:45 iCanada wrote: Just tried it. My new favorite jungle champ.
Burn in hell.
Since I haven't been in bronze for years, the only way I can really base an opinion on the change is what ppl on reddit post. And one guy wrote that the skill difference in bronze games can be pretty huge, a mix of people who are in their first ranked game, don't own any runes and have thunderlords on ADC, and people are just genuinely bad at the game. With that in mind, a tier below bronze where new players start is a good idea.
+1 for calling it Wood league, memes don't have to stay dreams.
On October 04 2017 13:47 iCanada wrote: How does jungle ez work? Just nidalee but ADC?
You become death, destroyer of the worlds once you get your second buff and level 3. You can go anywhere on the map with "see hero kill hero" attitude and you should be ashamed of yourself if you don't force a flash or a recall.
For example if you see the other jungler, he has seconds to get the fuck out before slowing mystic shot hits his face. If the jungler is one of those with weak early clear you can even use your E to close the gap, meaning he has even less time to realize he should be sorry for being in your jungle (the whole jungle is your jungle). If he decided to do both raptors and wolves before his second buff, you can safely make him your bitch with almost no risk involved.
I think Ezreal is OP mainly because of the level 3 power spike, solved mana problems due to the jungle item is just a nice bonus. Could be fixed by nerfing the red buff on low levels, e.g. by removing the slow or hp regeneration.
Edit: Just look at this, straight from LL's favorite LoL personality
Is nerfing the entirety of red buff really a preferable solution with less collateral damage than just nerfing ezreal in some way? One nerfs every other jungler who ever takes red, the other might just hurt lane ezreal.
I was just picking ivern and beating ez but I'm in noob league. Ivern had a 100% winrate until other night too :<. Seems pretty strong champ, wonder why he fell off so hard when argent meta was in full force. Do people just dislike his playstyle? Also why does LS sound like he's both furious and about to ejaculate with his moaning....
I see he's also wearing a full hoody up inside what appears to be a cave, is that just the camera not adjusting light properly? If he just hits the blastcone with his 20 million apm...
Buff-Camp-Buff into level 3 at full HP and either:
1) Invading a jungler that is almost certainly still doing his buff; 2) Ganking a level 2 laner.
In either scenario, you walk up and autoattack, which guarantees the followup Q. Even if they Flash, you don't even have to Flash, you can just E after them.
Continue ganking while you have red buff, then powerfarm while you don't have it.
Warrior -> Triforce -> Duskblade is OP damage. Back in the old days you'd go Iceborn Gauntlet since it's like perma-red buff but it greatly reduces your damage nowadays and is probably not worth unless you're up against a super kitable AD team.
On October 05 2017 00:41 phyvo wrote: Is nerfing the entirety of red buff really a preferable solution with less collateral damage than just nerfing ezreal in some way? One nerfs every other jungler who ever takes red, the other might just hurt lane ezreal.
It's hard to say - Ezreal is basically the only champion who can apply red buff at such a range. The ideal fix would be that Red buff has X effect on AA and Y effect on spells that proc on-hit effects.
I think the slow would be overpowered on any champion capable of consistently applying it from long range in the early game. Playing top against Gnar with your dead jungler's red buff is just suffering. I think removing the slow only from the first red spawn wouldn't hurt the other red reliant junlgers too much. I rarely play them so just guessing here.
The same thing, basically, happened when Kindred could clear the jungle safely. She would just walk in and smash you if you were not nidalee. Also kinda happened with rework nidalee. Heck, Elise also has some of the same problems (and has been nerfed dozens of times as a result). Anyone who can clear the jungle without dying and is ranged is tough to work through because so few champs that have ranged autos can clear it.
The decaying redbuff based on auto-distance is a fine band-aid fix, but IMO not great design unless you want to basically commit to the jungle being a melee-only thing (it would also really mess with Graves who is a bit shorter range and not a very good ganker).
A more interesting fix would be to Ivern-ify the jungle and basically make clear speed and HP-on full clear basically unconnected from your champion pick, thus making it a more versatile role where you could pick any champ based on teamcomp.
On October 05 2017 00:41 phyvo wrote: Is nerfing the entirety of red buff really a preferable solution with less collateral damage than just nerfing ezreal in some way? One nerfs every other jungler who ever takes red, the other might just hurt lane ezreal.
Maybe nerf the CD of his E on lower levels? This would make it harder to chase in the jungle with him. One of Nidalee's strengths is to hunt you down with speed and low CD pounces correct? Ez seems to be compared to her so something that could hurt her, might hurt him.
The E CD is already fairly long it's just you can reduce the cooldown by hitting Q, and if you nerf this you will actually end the ability to play the champion as an ad carry. It's somewhat hard to compete as it is.
I really don't think Ezreal jungle is so strong to the point where the champion needs to be nerfed, and I don't see how you can nerf the champion without impacting Ez ADC. I guess you could make BotRK and Muramana into good items again.
I think biggest thing is you just need to make catchup xp less good.
If EZ needs to get kills to not be behind in a world where he can't farm 2 of 6 camps effectively then he won't be as op. Thing is he can fuck around and apply pressure and not fall behind.
Other thing is reducing catchup XP would remove a lot of the stuff he poops on from the jungle and replace it with stuff he needs to be a bit afraid of like LeeSin that can just kill him depending on control.
Nerfing Catchup XP in general also would destroy the support role in solo queue. roaming would be significantly weaker, and you couldn't play anything but the babysitters and have a big impact.
On October 05 2017 02:00 PrinceXizor wrote: Nerfing Catchup XP in general also would destroy the support role in solo queue. roaming would be significantly weaker, and you couldn't play anything but the babysitters and have a big impact.
What if catchup XP worked sorta like Draven's passive? Like you have to build it up with camps and then accomplish something before it actually fires off? This way you store up camps for a certain amount of XP, but it wouldn't be as much as someone who is dedicated to farming. Also it would only bank the XP you stored so you won't be getting caught up by doing one more camp.
Why must everything turn into a catchup XP discussion. Catchup XP has nothing to do with it at all. Catchup XP is totally fine and 95% of the time it is only a crutch that shitty junglers blame when they can't carry.
Never said catch up xp was bad. Just said it enabled EZ to be a cancer jungle.
Ez could always clear buff camps but he was troll as he'll because you would be thousands of actual gold and thousands of gold worth of level stats behind only farming 60% of the jungle half the time. You had to pop off all the time to not suck.
But now he can probe for stupid shit for minutes at a time and if it pays off once you're fine. I'm not complaining, I won 6 straight EZ jungle games last night. It's just a suggestion... you want EZ out of the jungle, nerfing catchup xp would do it in an instant.
Alternately could just make his passive 3/6/10 attack speed per stack for level 1/6/10, instead of 10 always. shuts down that early clear. his poke game stays the same elsewhere. makes it so his dueling isnt lee sin level in the jungle. Or i guess ham fist stuff like riot likes, and make his Q do reduced damage to minions/monsters lol
My bot lanes have a problem with EZ jungle because I tend to ignore that lane when playing him. Why would I gank bot when I can camp that flashless solo laner?
On October 05 2017 03:51 PrinceXizor wrote: Alternately could just make his passive 3/6/10 attack speed per stack for level 1/6/10, instead of 10 always. shuts down that early clear. his poke game stays the same elsewhere. makes it so his dueling isnt lee sin level in the jungle. Or i guess ham fist stuff like riot likes, and make his Q do reduced damage to minions/monsters lol
Ezreal's passive attack speed is 10/12/14, but sure we can return to finding out just how low Ezreal's adc winrate can go I guess. The champion really doesn't deserve nerfs...
On October 05 2017 04:18 Sent. wrote: My bot lanes have a problem with EZ jungle because I tend to ignore that lane when playing him. Why would I gank bot when I can camp that flashless solo laner?
Coz it doesn't matter what happens to top side of the map. It's bot lane or bust man !
On October 05 2017 03:48 iCanada wrote: Never said catch up xp was bad. Just said it enabled EZ to be a cancer jungle.
Ez could always clear buff camps but he was troll as he'll because you would be thousands of actual gold and thousands of gold worth of level stats behind only farming 60% of the jungle half the time. You had to pop off all the time to not suck.
But now he can probe for stupid shit for minutes at a time and if it pays off once you're fine. I'm not complaining, I won 6 straight EZ jungle games last night. It's just a suggestion... you want EZ out of the jungle, nerfing catchup xp would do it in an instant.
It has 100% nothing to do with catchup XP. In the early game where he's ganking, he is getting little to no catchup XP whatsoever because the camps have not yet respawned at a higher level. Catchup XP only kicks in when the camps, which spawn at the average level in the game, are farmed when they are higher level than the jungler. This is extremely rare for Ezreal because your typical pattern is buff-camp-buff->gank until red is off->farm camps you didn't take->farm respawned camps you did take. At that last step is the first point at which catchup XP can kick in, and you are typically at the average XP level of the game by then.
One of the games where Condi played Ezreal at the worlds play ins showed just how disgustingly op catch up exp on ez is. Iirc it was game 2 vs Lyon, whichever game it was he legit gets 3 levels from 2 camps.
On October 05 2017 05:11 Slusher wrote: One of the games where Condi played Ezreal at the worlds play ins showed just how disgustingly op catch up exp on ez is. Iirc it was game 2 vs Lyon, whichever game it was he legit gets 3 levels from 2 camps.
Wasn't that more how XP works in the jungle with each small monster giving flat xp so by doing golem dudes and raptors plus the catch up XP on them he got massive levels. Is catch up XP as a concept at fault there or the way the jungle distributes it's XP?
On October 05 2017 05:11 Slusher wrote: One of the games where Condi played Ezreal at the worlds play ins showed just how disgustingly op catch up exp on ez is. Iirc it was game 2 vs Lyon, whichever game it was he legit gets 3 levels from 2 camps.
On October 05 2017 05:11 Slusher wrote: One of the games where Condi played Ezreal at the worlds play ins showed just how disgustingly op catch up exp on ez is. Iirc it was game 2 vs Lyon, whichever game it was he legit gets 3 levels from 2 camps.
Wasn't that more how XP works in the jungle with each small monster giving flat xp so by doing golem dudes and raptors plus the catch up XP on them he got massive levels. Is catch up XP as a concept at fault there or the way the jungle distributes it's XP?
Yes he abused exactly this by doing krugs and raptors, I'll link it when I get home later.
imo jungle as a role right now (solo) is definitely not op in terms of power level. So while I find Ezreals lvl 2 chunk out the mid lamer gank really powerful, I don't really feel oppressed by the pick when he chooses any other route.
On October 05 2017 04:18 Sent. wrote: My bot lanes have a problem with EZ jungle because I tend to ignore that lane when playing him. Why would I gank bot when I can camp that flashless solo laner?
Coz it doesn't matter what happens to top side of the map. It's bot lane or bust man !
Wrong the jungle should just camp what ever lane I'm in. (basically everyone's opinion always)
I camp the fool that seems to not have an off button. You know who I'm talking about; the guy whose either 0-8-0 or 19-8-0. That guy either carries you or carries them. Haha. Most games have one.
On October 05 2017 03:48 iCanada wrote: Never said catch up xp was bad. Just said it enabled EZ to be a cancer jungle.
Ez could always clear buff camps but he was troll as he'll because you would be thousands of actual gold and thousands of gold worth of level stats behind only farming 60% of the jungle half the time. You had to pop off all the time to not suck.
But now he can probe for stupid shit for minutes at a time and if it pays off once you're fine. I'm not complaining, I won 6 straight EZ jungle games last night. It's just a suggestion... you want EZ out of the jungle, nerfing catchup xp would do it in an instant.
By getting rid of catchup XP, you also heavily penalize active jungling unless it's successful.
There is the link not sure the time you are after.
nothing unusual happened in that game.
EZ got levels as he should and then got boosted up a bit by taxing an taking his raptors on CD, taking dragon and baron, and using his ult to clear waves for long range XP.
Catchup XP had nothing to do with it.
The long range ult farming is what has always made EZ pretty good at catching back up and farming back into the game if he falls behind.
On October 05 2017 03:48 iCanada wrote: Never said catch up xp was bad. Just said it enabled EZ to be a cancer jungle.
Ez could always clear buff camps but he was troll as he'll because you would be thousands of actual gold and thousands of gold worth of level stats behind only farming 60% of the jungle half the time. You had to pop off all the time to not suck.
But now he can probe for stupid shit for minutes at a time and if it pays off once you're fine. I'm not complaining, I won 6 straight EZ jungle games last night. It's just a suggestion... you want EZ out of the jungle, nerfing catchup xp would do it in an instant.
By getting rid of catchup XP, you also heavily penalize active jungling unless it's successful.
By rights I'm a Shyvana player from saints school of janglin. Would love that.
On October 05 2017 03:48 iCanada wrote: Never said catch up xp was bad. Just said it enabled EZ to be a cancer jungle.
Ez could always clear buff camps but he was troll as he'll because you would be thousands of actual gold and thousands of gold worth of level stats behind only farming 60% of the jungle half the time. You had to pop off all the time to not suck.
But now he can probe for stupid shit for minutes at a time and if it pays off once you're fine. I'm not complaining, I won 6 straight EZ jungle games last night. It's just a suggestion... you want EZ out of the jungle, nerfing catchup xp would do it in an instant.
By getting rid of catchup XP, you also heavily penalize active jungling unless it's successful.
People being "active" aka camping lanes, is something they always have wanted to punish though. For good reason. Even bad ganks can set a laner 10+ cs and a level behind.
On October 05 2017 08:39 NeoIllusions wrote: Not even sure how many full hp creeps Ezreal can even kill with his ulti but I def feel like 8 CS is me being generous. zzz
extremely generous
if you get even 2 extra cs per minute past level 6 that's pretty high i'd think
and that's under the assumption you're using ult off cooldown every single time throughout the game solely for farming lol
I'm torn on ulting as Junlge EZ. Part of me is like wants to uilt on CD for that sweet sweet GPM. Part of me wants to never ult ever so they don't get to see me for free.
On October 05 2017 08:39 NeoIllusions wrote: Not even sure how many full hp creeps Ezreal can even kill with his ulti but I def feel like 8 CS is me being generous. zzz
extremely generous
if you get even 2 extra cs per minute past level 6 that's pretty high i'd think
and that's under the assumption you're using ult off cooldown every single time throughout the game solely for farming lol
but yeah thats a pretty silly statement
It was more about being able to snag a few extra CS while you power farm from safety to help you get back into the game, it's a tool not the toolbox. its some CS you cant get on other ADs without taking risks.
but generally you should always be able to target the back line and get 3 at minimum.
On October 05 2017 08:39 NeoIllusions wrote: Not even sure how many full hp creeps Ezreal can even kill with his ulti but I def feel like 8 CS is me being generous. zzz
extremely generous
if you get even 2 extra cs per minute past level 6 that's pretty high i'd think
and that's under the assumption you're using ult off cooldown every single time throughout the game solely for farming lol
but yeah thats a pretty silly statement
It was more about being able to snag a few extra CS while you power farm from safety to help you get back into the game, it's a tool not the toolbox. its some CS you cant get on other ADs without taking risks.
but generally you should always be able to target the back line and get 3 at minimum.
not really
ez ult is never really used for 'farming' besides some very niche scenarios in the very early game like when you are still laning
when you actually ult creeps outside of lane phase it's not for the CS, it's for managing waves (or in the case of ez ulting it's generally to make the best out of bad wave management).
when you actually get to the point in the game where you are using ez ult for taking care of waves, 3-4 CS means absolutely nothing. and if you are ulting before that constantly for CS you are doing something fundamentally wrong with ezreal or the game or both.
think you are exagerrating alot when saying "The long range ult farming is what has always made EZ pretty good at catching back up and farming back into the game if he falls behind." when you pick up maybe 10 cs total across a 30 minute game as ezreal
There is the link not sure the time you are after.
The long range ult farming is what has always made EZ pretty good at catching back up and farming back into the game if he falls behind.
lmao
8CS is srs bsns.
"Ezreal is so weak he has to ult to clear the wave. But look, his ult doesn't even clear the wave!"
-Oddone 2012
Ahhhh, I remember watching that game! One of the classics, just like the super intense tank Rengar vs Zac fight.
Kind of fun how he could rant for an entire game about how much he hate Ezreal but are playing him now. There's so many great quotes and moments from OddOne's stream, one of the best is the game that turned into a thriller story narrated by him. It was something about a bodyguard and a special agent protecting the VIP (adc) against the terrorist and an assassin.
On October 05 2017 10:02 dsyxelic wrote: ez ult is never really used for 'farming' besides some very niche scenarios in the very early game like when you are still laning
when you actually ult creeps outside of lane phase it's not for the CS, it's for managing waves (or in the case of ez ulting it's generally to make the best out of bad wave management).
This was years ago man. people absolutely spammed that and MF ult to clear waves way back when.
There is the link not sure the time you are after.
The long range ult farming is what has always made EZ pretty good at catching back up and farming back into the game if he falls behind.
lmao
8CS is srs bsns.
"Ezreal is so weak he has to ult to clear the wave. But look, his ult doesn't even clear the wave!"
-Oddone 2012
Ahhhh, I remember watching that game! One of the classics, just like the super intense tank Rengar vs Zac fight.
Kind of fun how he could rant for an entire game about how much he hate Ezreal but are playing him now. There's so many great quotes and moments from OddOne's stream, one of the best is the game that turned into a thriller story narrated by him. It was something about a bodyguard and a special agent protecting the VIP (adc) against the terrorist and an assassin.
Really the only streamer I ever found the slightest bit interesting. No idea how dyrus currently has 10x the viewers he does. That is like watching cheese age.
On October 05 2017 10:02 dsyxelic wrote: ez ult is never really used for 'farming' besides some very niche scenarios in the very early game like when you are still laning
when you actually ult creeps outside of lane phase it's not for the CS, it's for managing waves (or in the case of ez ulting it's generally to make the best out of bad wave management).
This was years ago man. people absolutely spammed that and MF ult to clear waves way back when.
i mean if you're talking about like 5 years past (this is probably even before I played then since I did not see this and I started s3) i don't see how its relevant to the condi ezreal jungle game you responded to
Is there a way to report players after you leave the screen?
I am disgusted with this Naut that was on my team, but I was so disgusted after the game (the enemy surrendered after getting 3 inhibs) I forgot. This guy was the worst possible teammate. No slurs, just weird shit talking while he would randomly hook the enemy when we had no hope of winning a fight, then proceed to say, "Where support?" Like 10x during the game.
Sadly not, unless you send a ticket to Riot. But that only really holds if you get the guy multiple times in games, in which case you'd report him in the client anyway.
You get those kinds of people sometimes, they're probably the most frustrating troll to play with, since you can just mute flamers.
2 cs 3:30 into the game, same level as Lee Sin by 5 min
In the future we should do ban bets on whether or not catchup XP is actually involved, because I just wasted 5 minutes of my life watching this and typing this out when it should have been bloody obvious that catchup XP had nothing to do with it.
Ezreal gained "2 levels" and hit level 4 from taking Raptors and Krugs. It actually wasn't 2 levels, because he was 80% of the way to level 3 already from first blood / absorbing lane CS, so he really gained about 1.2 levels or so. But more importantly, catchup XP isn't relevant, because neither of those camps had respawned, so they were at level 2, same as him. Meanwhile Lee's counterjungling put him 80% of the way to level 5, but chooses to back at that point, which artificially extends the amount of time they are "at the same level".
Lee had an early advantage but failed to exploit it. He hits level 6 a minute before Ezreal, and has better items, but doesn't use his ult for another 3 minutes.
2 cs 3:30 into the game, same level as Lee Sin by 5 min
In the future we should do ban bets on whether or not catchup XP is actually involved, because I just wasted 5 minutes of my life watching this and typing this out when it should have been bloody obvious that catchup XP had nothing to do with it.
Ezreal gained "2 levels" and hit level 4 from taking Raptors and Krugs. It actually wasn't 2 levels, because he was 80% of the way to level 3 already from first blood / absorbing lane CS, so he really gained about 1.2 levels or so. But more importantly, catchup XP isn't relevant, because neither of those camps had respawned, so they were at level 2, same as him. Meanwhile Lee's counterjungling put him 80% of the way to level 5, but chooses to back at that point, which artificially extends the amount of time they are "at the same level".
Lee had an early advantage but failed to exploit it. He hits level 6 a minute before Ezreal, and has better items, but doesn't use his ult for another 3 minutes.
Just to add to this, Lee doesn't get a single CS from like 4.30 to 6:45. Over 2 minutes where all he did was push a wave with bot and then later watch them die. And Ezreal still doesn't "catch up".
EPT
. Too many responsibilities. Loss of free time really hurts.
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