EPThttp://www.surrenderat20.net/p/61-pbe-cycle.html#balance
[Patch 5.24] League of Legends General Discussion - Page 28
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/61-pbe-cycle.html#balance | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
People will still take TDL since it doesn't get nerfed to the ground and Precision alone would justify it over most stuff from the left tree, even post-nerf. I don't think the advice on Kindred or Quinn are affected either since neither them nor their items are targeted by the patch? If you want to point out a strong champ that's gonna be nerfed, look at Trundle.  Not that he's dead now I think, but snowballing with a longer ult cd is harder (20s is a lot early on if you look at it in a "20 more seconds to spend in lane before the all-in" and adding all the death timer+walking back to lane time) and Chomp not working on towers greatly reduces his ability to push (more or less depending if "doesn't work on towers" means it doesn't deal bonus damage and go on cd, or that he doesn't even get the bonus AD) since he's very bad at clearing waves to begin with.The Pillar nerf is probably hurting support Trundle more (which is a shame, his kit is the kind of non-streamlined stuff that makes inventive picks work, and I think Riot should be happier to see Trundle support than Lulu being a very strong solo laner for example). TDL is absurd, but not as noticeable in the late game (after you generally get some MR, also HP from levels) as it is during laning imo. When every trade starts doing 60 HP more when you've only got ~700, you just die a lot faster, especially botlane. MF's nerf for example still lets E trigger TDL in around a second (iirc it ticks on cast then every 0.5s?) and force a trade off the slow and her passive MS, so she's still going to be very strong I think, although you'll stop maxing E all the way (it was already ridiculously strong pre-rework during laning due to the base damage, but with her being so unpopular you wouldn't know about it). I went "wat" yesterday when a Poppy with Warrior and BC (and no stacks on me, nor ArPen runes) did 254 damage with only the first part of her Q. I was low so executioner factored in, and Brand with ~2k HP and ~80 armour at that point. I mean the whole "spammable 12% max HP" is obviously overtuned, but I didn't do the math on a single half of the ability, where 6% max HP actually beats the base damage differential (160 vs most abilities which hover around 240) as soon as you build an HP item (or have a naturally high pool). | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On January 11 2016 22:23 M2 wrote: Since you rose the Rengar question, even I as a rengar main think that he needs to be tuned a bit. My opinion though is that his damage should not be touched, since, its the only thing he has, however, the ability to apply this damage so easily can be reduced. For example I would take out the invisibility part of his ulti and compensate with more movement speed and/or bigger jump, so he still can smell/sense isolated targets hidden behind walls and bushes, he can still cross big distances to reach them, he can still probably jump on them most of the times, but they will have the time to prepare and react. So he will become like any other assassin who has to trick/outplay his way to the back lines If they want stealth burst then they need to put in items that deal with stealth. They haven't done that and keep refusing to do so. The champion should be completely changed then as he'll always be a binary problem unless that happens. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
On January 11 2016 22:25 Numy wrote: If they want stealth burst then they need to put in items that deal with stealth. They haven't done that and keep refusing to do so. The champion should be completely changed then as he'll always be a binary problem unless that happens. Yeah, somehow I meant the same thing. Overall, Rengar as it is now can be countered by many champs and compositions, so naturally his win rate is all right like 51% or something, however, his gameplay is really out of the league scope somehow, can't even explain it. So exchanging invisibility with other steroids like movement speed should make him adjustable. Another thing that can easily fix his and for that matter many other problematic champs gameplay will be the infamous voice communication, when you communicate slower (typing) than a champ abilities to make his moves is completely different from making teammates aware in under a second. I personally experienced this many times playing ranked 5s, I can easily say when the other 5s have voice communication and when not. I am platinum and managed to abuse diamonds many times when they had no voice and often found very hard to find easy preys vs golds when they obviously communicated my map movements | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
When Rengar jumps on someone, they die in less than a second. Even if you made his ult MS-based rather than invisibility-based, if he jumps at somebody from outside vision (bush, over a wall, long range flash+jump), he'll just kill them the same way. Now you're going to tell me that a fed LB or Katarina does the same, and that Anivia, Syndra, etc. even have cc and more range to make such an instakill happen. That's true, but either it requires the champion to be really fed, or the champion is problematic itself (hello Anivia's point'n'click numbers) so giving Rengar parity with them isn't a good solution for the game. Moreover, for reasons pertaining to bruisers, an armour+AD/AS item doesn't exist, so while you can try and lessen the threat from LB with a Banshee's Veil or MoM for example, or a Mercurial Scimitar against Syndra, you forfeit a slot to a purely defensive item against a physical damage dealer like Rengar. And with the way he is, even Randuin's (on paper the single highest physical EHP item) isn't enough to survive if Rengar ults at you. And if you have to commit 2 defensive items before lategame just to survive him, the other team's marksman is going to plow through yours in comparison. Even for AP cores building Zhonya's, you'll usually take the damage from his leap before you trigger the stasis, which is easily between a third and half of your HP (more if he gets a crit), and you're a sitting duck for any long range finisher or if Rengar doesn't die by the time the stasis wears off. Ideally, assassins should take longer to kill their targets. I preferred when for example Talon had his silence, because it didn't make him so weak against Ahri or LB (unless he can 100-0 them without taking the time for additional autos, and that case isn't desirable either), but it also meant that if your target had allies nearby, they could help instead, so the onus would be on you to find alone time with a squishy, either because there are no other enemies close, because they're distracted, or because they already spent their cooldowns, so you wouldn't be disturbed for the few seconds you need to do your job. Of course it's made a lot harder by the small map (and lanes) and the way teams group later on... | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Not to mention how much easier 1v1s would be. They need to bring back red trinket. Dunno who the fuck decided it shouldnt reveal champs. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
what you say is true by itself, however, if assassin such as rengar needs more time to kill he will become obsolete in most cases, I mean he has nothing else going on for him. Thats why I thought that taking out his invisibility should be good enough, because when he can find a target isolated it will be there own mistake and it will surely happen several times per game, nevertheless he won;t be able to do the same when the other team plays correctly enough, unless rengar;s team does not find a way to force them to make such mistakes. So rengar will either need team support and right compositions to be viable or dumb enemies. I personally dont approve balancing the game around retardness. The main issue now is that Rengar in a team of no feeding ass fools can always be oppressive and it almost does not matter what enemies do. If he is not a lot behind or if his team is not feeding like crazy everywhere, good rengar can always do his job regardless and this is not fine. However, one shoting someone behind a wall in a second or two, deep in their territories when they have real means to track you down is not a champion design flaw anymore IMO | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
On January 11 2016 23:35 nafta wrote: That's just not true. If rengar's ult wasn't invisibility based he wouldn't do shit in fights. Not to mention how much easier 1v1s would be. They need to bring back red trinket. Dunno who the fuck decided it shouldnt reveal champs. I don't think red trinked ever did something meaningful against Rengar. Sure there were cases where it worked but they were really few, It helped a lot with any other invisible champ, but Rengar you have to track before he is in red trinked range, because he will already jump on his target if he reached so close | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
Why is there not a global noise for rengar's "growl" when he actives his stealth for ult? he moves so fast with it + ghostblade once he gets it that it obviously wouldnt kill him, but at the same time you can't just activate your ult behind bot/mid tower repeatedly and pick up free uncounterable kills. There would be some level of planning and brainpower required to play him. Pretty much every other ridiculous "global" spell besides shen ult has some sort of pre-cursor to it, why rengar's gives zero warning i have no idea. This keeps his damage intact as well, I can't see any other way to nerf him that doesnt involve his damage. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On January 11 2016 23:35 nafta wrote: That's just not true. If rengar's ult wasn't invisibility based he wouldn't do shit in fights. Not to mention how much easier 1v1s would be. They need to bring back red trinket. Dunno who the fuck decided it shouldnt reveal champs. I find it ironic that Rengar stealths and gains true sight. Clearly the counter to Rengar is another Rengar. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
On January 11 2016 23:50 VayneAuthority wrote: I suggested this change on the forums and it got l a good amount of upvotes and it makes sense within riot's balance scheme. Why is there not a global noise for rengar's "growl" when he actives his stealth for ult? he moves so fast with it + ghostblade once he gets it that it obviously wouldnt kill him, but at the same time you can't just activate your ult behind bot/mid tower repeatedly and pick up free uncounterable kills. There would be some level of planning and brainpower required to play him. Pretty much every other ridiculous "global" spell besides shen ult has some sort of pre-cursor to it, why rengar's gives zero warning i have no idea. This keeps his damage intact as well, I can't see any other way to nerf him that doesnt involve his damage. I thought about such solution, it will work but it will take big part of his identity/gameplay feel. Rengar will be never able to gank someone close to turret, he won't be able to run through whole enemy jungle to get someone separated in the enemy territories and he should be able to do this I think, otherwise, he will become just too straight and depraved from any tricky things in his gameplay. He should be traceable but when the enemies put some effort in it, not effortless like you suggest IMO | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On January 11 2016 23:50 M2 wrote: I don't think red trinked ever did something meaningful against Rengar. Sure there were cases where it worked but they were really few, It helped a lot with any other invisible champ, but Rengar you have to track before he is in red trinked range, because he will already jump on his target if he reached so close It did a lot of work vs rengar. It doesn't work only if he gets lulu w/zilean speed or some shit. Considering how broken trundle is the nerfs aren't even much at all. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I wouldn't be too worried about Trundle anyway because his strength has always been more dictated by the meta than his own inherent power. Which is actually the mark of a good kit! | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
The Q nerf honestly isn't that big. You can bite a minion to get your bonus AD (I'd like to see the duration nerfed a bit or something instead so you don't have a perma BF sword essentially). I usually build IBG on Trundle, but either way with your Sheen item you still kill turrets very fast when you've got Q buff, Sheen procs and W atkspd up. I'd ballpark this slows down your tower killing by... 10-20%? not too significant either way. The ult nerfs make sense though. I've been a little annoyed I can't get really sick ults off because there are never any real tanks in my games to drain. Maybe in combination everything is okay even if individually the nerfs are a little confusing to me. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
While Thunderlord's Decree is the go-to mastery when you're looking to dominate your lane, we're leaving it as-is for a few reasons. First, we're looking to it as a 'goalpost' from which we balance the other keystones around. It's something you can easily play around, has a good amount of impact, and synergizes well with certain champion kits. Additionally, we're avoiding playing 'whack-a-mole' with the Keystones (ie: just nerfing whichever is best at any given moment). By recognizing TD's strength and matching others to it, we build a better ecosystem for Keystones where you're free to adapt your builds, rather than just playing champions that abuse the best mastery. As much as I can see the "no whack-a-mole" pros, and it's something they've been criticised for a lot, the whole "TDL is easily played around" bit as a reason to keep it miffs me a bit. As is, it's actually warping, since if your longer ranged opponent gets a single hit on you you're not going to trade back, you'll just hav to zone yourself until the debuff disappears, or zig-zag their skillshots, because otherwise you're just giving them a big burst for free. It also means pot shots and harass is less significant since you get so much more for triggering TDL, but the timer for its stacks also makes these champs capable of very long range pot shots able to choose whether they want to try and damage you, or just throw something at random and if it hits, cool, now they're passively zoning. I think it's their rule of 3 for their minigames: it's too easy to trigger something this way. If you'd rather have the DoT mastery for poke and stuff, then why not make TDL harder to trigger, so you actually have to commit to get that burst of damage? Especially for mages, they're gonna have to do a bit of autoattacking to get it off-and if you want your mastery to impact laning first, then needing to auto to complement your combo is actually something you're more likely to do in lane than during a teamfight where it may compromise your positioning. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
I remember yesterday our MF had something like 600+ damage on her Q poke midgame with TDL + Energized. She wasn't even that fed. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
But if it triggered off AAs only then you'd need to increase the damage scaling from it most likely, and even then I don't think most ADCs would pick it and instead go 18/12 and grab Fervor (if the buffs go through on it) or the Deathfire one. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 12 2016 02:55 Kinie wrote: To me, the fact that TDL triggers on 3 hits from either AAs or abilities is what makes it so strong. If it just triggered off AAs then it wouldn't be as OP and you wouldn't have people like MF or Lucian proccing it in .5s, leaving you basically no time to react to eating approx. 200-600 damage in the lane phase, depending upon items and level of course. But if it triggered off AAs only then you'd need to increase the damage scaling from it most likely, and even then I don't think most ADCs would pick it and instead go 18/12 and grab Fervor (if the buffs go through on it) or the Deathfire one. Make it a 4-5 hit, increase damage scale. | ||
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